My meta is filled with either ramp decks that cast Eldrazi's and Titans and Primordials or goodstuff blink decks, most decks run minimal answers (like maybe 3-8 dedicated spots to removal), what is an archetype that can thrive in this metagame? (infinite combos, MLD and extra turns are frowned upon)
Mono-Blue Counterspells ought to put their plans on ice. Or play Zur the Enchanter lockdown.
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Make their fatties sad, keep them off their mana without actually taking it away, preemptively take away resources, one sided effects, win faster than they do, or ramp harder.
The most responsible thing to do is talk with your playgroup about the situation. Ask them to either tone down the ramp decks or allow the more effective ways to counter it. They may not like infinite combos or MLD but you don't like the excessive amount of ramp deck - which is an equally valid opinion.
I'm inclined to disagree with this. One counter-heavy deck can't possibly stop multiple ramp decks.
Zur or arcum are options for sure, though, since lack of answers means those decks will win. Definitely fast combo will outrace them and demand answers, however they might hate you for it.
Stax is also a solid option, if your goal is to stop them from achieving their ends. It's definitely the only reasonable way to win while trying to keep a control strategy. Also likely to annoy, but maybe they'll at least pack artifact/enchantment hate.
If infinite combos and stax are both out, then Maelstrom wanderer is a good suggestion from Darcykun, however it's probably more likely to just increase the race to ramp. maybe they'll move towards answers, but I kinda doubt it.
I've been considering/hypothesizing a lifegain deck for similar metas, though I'm not sure if it will work the way I want or if that's what you would want.
Sounds like any kind of control would wipe the floor with them.
Does recurring Mindslaver everyturn count as an infinite combo?
I think you are just going to have to be known for preventing "fun" if you want to win.
Stoney silence is just so good at messing with artifact ramp decks.
Things like Rule of law can prevent the advantages of having a ton of mana if you can play at instant speed... although it can mess with you to.
I am thinking non combo esper... counter spells, strip hands and blow up the world repeatedly. It has good tutors as well. All you have to do is have your answers cost less mana than thier spells and you wont need to match thier hyper ramp. If you can get those answers when you need them you can stop thier decks.
Edric weenie rush will just cleave through the decks you've described like butter. They spend their first couple of turns ramping, you use it to overload the board with a bunch of 1/1s, and by the time they're ready to lay threats, you're drawing 6-7 cards a turn.
With that many cards, it's generally pretty easy to counter lockdown even 3 other players. You also have access to asymmetrical lockdown cards like Winter Orb, or Tangle Wire.
I suggest Elf Tribal or Purphoros, God of the Forge. This way, you avoid playing combos and MLD, while still playing a deck that demands immediate attention. That or build a smart blue deck.
Make their fatties sad, keep them off their mana without actually taking it away, preemptively take away resources, one sided effects, win faster than they do, or ramp harder.
The most responsible thing to do is talk with your playgroup about the situation. Ask them to either tone down the ramp decks or allow the more effective ways to counter it. They may not like infinite combos or MLD but you don't like the excessive amount of ramp deck - which is an equally valid opinion.
So Control and Stax are good options to deal with a creature heavy/blink heavy meta?
I've been considering/hypothesizing a lifegain deck for similar metas, though I'm not sure if it will work the way I want or if that's what you would want.
Sounds like any kind of control would wipe the floor with them.
Does recurring Mindslaver everyturn count as an infinite combo?
I think you are just going to have to be known for preventing "fun" if you want to win.
Stoney silence is just so good at messing with artifact ramp decks.
Things like Rule of law can prevent the advantages of having a ton of mana if you can play at instant speed... although it can mess with you to.
I am thinking non combo esper... counter spells, strip hands and blow up the world repeatedly. It has good tutors as well. All you have to do is have your answers cost less mana than thier spells and you wont need to match thier hyper ramp. If you can get those answers when you need them you can stop thier decks.
so yeah.. No Fun is allowed under your watch.
A Mindslaver "lock" would be frowned upon, yes. I already run Torpor Orb in 2/3 of my decks.
Gaddock Teeg is great against Ramp decks, include some aven mindcensor and torpor orb, stony silence, null rod and the like and you have yourself a nice GW hate bear deck... Ramp players will cry Then add some loyal retainers + survival of the fittest and Iona/Elesh norn and Linvala and they shal stop crying but be careful, they just might flip the table
I really like Gaddock Teeg as a commander, but to me it seems like not being able to cast noncreature spells wouldn't be a problem for anyone and they'd continue playing creatures anyway? There would be even less frequent board wipes too. Isn't Teeg better for the ramp players in the long run?
Ward of Bones slows down anyone doing stuff faster than you (however it doesn't stop permanents entering the battlefield without being played). Damping Engine slightly slows down the fastest person. (Although, again, if they can drop a permanent into play without playing it, they won't be stopped.)
Edric weenie rush will just cleave through the decks you've described like butter. They spend their first couple of turns ramping, you use it to overload the board with a bunch of 1/1s, and by the time they're ready to lay threats, you're drawing 6-7 cards a turn.
With that many cards, it's generally pretty easy to counter lockdown even 3 other players. You also have access to asymmetrical lockdown cards like Winter Orb, or Tangle Wire.
This.
If they aren't running board wipes then you can easily crush them with a good Edric build. You will be so far ahead by the time they are actually doing stuff you will be able to run the table. My build basically uses tons of little stuff, <2 cmc, tons of counter/bounce, and then a few big finishers (Craterhoof, Triumph of the Horde) and Seedborn Muse effects.
An elf-themed build might be even faster/stronger in your meta, where counters aren't really needed. (in mine I really need a high counter count to stop wraths and combo)
If they aren't running board wipes then you can easily crush them with a good Edric build. You will be so far ahead by the time they are actually doing stuff you will be able to run the table. My build basically uses tons of little stuff, <2 cmc, tons of counter/bounce, and then a few big finishers (Craterhoof, Triumph of the Horde) and Seedborn Muse effects.
An elf-themed build might be even faster/stronger in your meta, where counters aren't really needed. (in mine I really need a high counter count to stop wraths and combo)
There are boardwipes, just not that many, maybe like 2 in 1 deck. Edric does look like a good option however.
I'd go with a U/B Wrexial Steal/Clone/Animate deck. Everything they play, take it and copy it. Don't forget to say thanks for all the fatties that you get below cost. Be sure to include Gather Specimens to steal the ETB effect also.
My adamaro, first to desire deck would be in heaven! Although that's because it blows up all the lands all day, and that won't work for you.
My karona deck would probably kick butt in this meta. Lots of spot removal and then get karona in play with something like elephant grass to protect yourself. Then play grand melee and vow of wildness.
Personally, a really fast glass cannon would probably work well. It doesnt have to be combo or anything but just like an elfball overrun deck could run them over, Kamahl, Marton, Ezuri, Edric, Krenko would all open up realy fast and swarm them out.
When I hear low answers, going answer heavy sucks because it means you have to answer them all. I would rather go to the other extreme and play something so explosive aggro that they have to run answers to stop you. Plus, the eldrazi have little to no impact against token builds.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Your meta is extremely vulnerable to resource denial. Stax decks or decks with stax elements would be the ideal counter. Your table is the kind that will concede to an Armageddon so take advantage of it and keep them honest with their deck construction.
Good advice from ISB too if you don't mind winning very quickly.
Stay away from trying to counter everything because you'll run out of cards in hand doing so.
I agree with ISBPathfinder's analysis. Building control and trying to control all the other people is not the way to go, and will usually actually just make them kill you first (you countered my sylvan primordial! Screw you!). Running a deck that thrives in an answer-less meta is the best way to go.
@Sonik
I believe the OP said that MLD is soft-banned in his play group.
Personally, a really fast glass cannon would probably work well. It doesnt have to be combo or anything but just like an elfball overrun deck could run them over, Kamahl, Marton, Ezuri, Edric, Krenko would all open up realy fast and swarm them out.
When I hear low answers, going answer heavy sucks because it means you have to answer them all. I would rather go to the other extreme and play something so explosive aggro that they have to run answers to stop you. Plus, the eldrazi have little to no impact against token builds.
+1
Yeah until this post, it was kind of startling to hear 80% of the responses say Stax, and the other 20% say Counterspell Control. That's after the OP mentioning MLD is off. Pretty disconcerting if that's a representative survey. Stax tends to be really polarizing. The ramp.format crowd, aka the Spirit of EDH majority, may see LD as anathema for the very reason that it gets put in so often against them. On top of that, it often gets used in a slapdash way that just prolongs games. My take is that both Counter-Control and Stax take a truckload of skill with those archetypes as built specifically for this format. If done right, fine, but if done poorly they're very off putting. Then the ramp crowd draws all sorts of conclusions about the counter-ramp crowd, and a resistance against non-ramp gradually builds up because the supposition is that everything non-ramp IS Stax/LD. Not so.
My advice is the same as ISB's. Just play anything non-combo that's actually designed to win before Turn 9 if unanswered. Krenko, or Elf Ball, etc. Rafiq Vultron is adaptable and quick. Aurelia and Blight Dragon Vultron work too. Just play some smash-mouth Magic.
Beyond being effective, it also serves to separate the genuinely ramp-loving sheep from the just-want-to-win goats. Both will complain about Stax, but anyone touting the spirit of social play after getting attacked by a creature is on shaky legs. That lot will really just complain about anything that beats them, so it's no use trying. And I'm probably batting about .700 on drawing complaints against Sunforger from the folks on MODO. If I were playing Stax/MLD, I'd be all insecure wondering whether it was them or me.
@SonikI believe the OP said that MLD is soft-banned in his play group.
Missed that. Kinda figured anyway though.
All these groups where big mana green decks with lots of ETB and Blink usually flourish because a lack of resource denial to keep them down. Big coincidence, huh?
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EDH
BGGlissa, The Traitor - Recursion (Primer)
WBRKaalia of The Vast
URGRiku of Two Reflections
WUBSydri, Galvanic Genius
UBRamirez DePietro
GWKrond, The Dawn-Clad
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage
Modern
UG Infect
Steal them all: Treachery, Control Magic, Bribery, Blatant Thievery
Mass creature hate: Lethal Vapors, Ensnaring Bridge, Day of Judgment, Blasphemous Act
Counters: Hinder, Plasm Capture, Overwhelming Intellect
Wat deck(s) are u currently running?
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WB Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts- battlecruiser
GUB The Mimeoplasm- when graveyards are not safe
RGW Mayael the Anima- i luv the fatties
Draft my Peasant Cube.
Make their fatties sad, keep them off their mana without actually taking it away, preemptively take away resources, one sided effects, win faster than they do, or ramp harder.
They've blacklisted they first ways I'd try to control it. It seems like all you're left with is multiplayer control strategies. Try using Nath of the Gilt-Leaf to discard their threats early, or Captain Sisay (secretly GW Hokori, Dust Drinker) or Vorel of the Hull Clade with Winter Orb effects and Seedborn Muse effects.
The most responsible thing to do is talk with your playgroup about the situation. Ask them to either tone down the ramp decks or allow the more effective ways to counter it. They may not like infinite combos or MLD but you don't like the excessive amount of ramp deck - which is an equally valid opinion.
I'm inclined to disagree with this. One counter-heavy deck can't possibly stop multiple ramp decks.
Zur or arcum are options for sure, though, since lack of answers means those decks will win. Definitely fast combo will outrace them and demand answers, however they might hate you for it.
Stax is also a solid option, if your goal is to stop them from achieving their ends. It's definitely the only reasonable way to win while trying to keep a control strategy. Also likely to annoy, but maybe they'll at least pack artifact/enchantment hate.
If infinite combos and stax are both out, then Maelstrom wanderer is a good suggestion from Darcykun, however it's probably more likely to just increase the race to ramp. maybe they'll move towards answers, but I kinda doubt it.
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Phelddagrif - Zirilan
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Does recurring Mindslaver everyturn count as an infinite combo?
I think you are just going to have to be known for preventing "fun" if you want to win.
Stoney silence is just so good at messing with artifact ramp decks.
Things like Rule of law can prevent the advantages of having a ton of mana if you can play at instant speed... although it can mess with you to.
Torpor Orb is kryptonite for blink.
I am thinking non combo esper... counter spells, strip hands and blow up the world repeatedly. It has good tutors as well. All you have to do is have your answers cost less mana than thier spells and you wont need to match thier hyper ramp. If you can get those answers when you need them you can stop thier decks.
so yeah.. No Fun is allowed under your watch.
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Edric weenie rush will just cleave through the decks you've described like butter. They spend their first couple of turns ramping, you use it to overload the board with a bunch of 1/1s, and by the time they're ready to lay threats, you're drawing 6-7 cards a turn.
With that many cards, it's generally pretty easy to counter lockdown even 3 other players. You also have access to asymmetrical lockdown cards like Winter Orb, or Tangle Wire.
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Currently run Kresh the Bloodbraided (lots of sacrifice), Child of Alara Planeswalkers and Momir Vig, Simic Visionary creature toolbox.
Wanderer without MLD or Time Walks would just feel sub-par
So Control and Stax are good options to deal with a creature heavy/blink heavy meta?
Would just end up getting targeted with Magister Sphinx
A Mindslaver "lock" would be frowned upon, yes. I already run Torpor Orb in 2/3 of my decks.
I really like Gaddock Teeg as a commander, but to me it seems like not being able to cast noncreature spells wouldn't be a problem for anyone and they'd continue playing creatures anyway? There would be even less frequent board wipes too. Isn't Teeg better for the ramp players in the long run?
Ankh of Mishra, Polluted Bonds, and Zo-Zu the Punisher make decks that ramp via land cry. Null Rod shuts down artifact ramp. Linvala, Keeper of Silence shuts down mana dorks.
Ward of Bones slows down anyone doing stuff faster than you (however it doesn't stop permanents entering the battlefield without being played). Damping Engine slightly slows down the fastest person. (Although, again, if they can drop a permanent into play without playing it, they won't be stopped.)
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This.
If they aren't running board wipes then you can easily crush them with a good Edric build. You will be so far ahead by the time they are actually doing stuff you will be able to run the table. My build basically uses tons of little stuff, <2 cmc, tons of counter/bounce, and then a few big finishers (Craterhoof, Triumph of the Horde) and Seedborn Muse effects.
An elf-themed build might be even faster/stronger in your meta, where counters aren't really needed. (in mine I really need a high counter count to stop wraths and combo)
There are boardwipes, just not that many, maybe like 2 in 1 deck. Edric does look like a good option however.
My karona deck would probably kick butt in this meta. Lots of spot removal and then get karona in play with something like elephant grass to protect yourself. Then play grand melee and vow of wildness.
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BGW Doran Destruction WGB
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quite helpful if theres a ramp guy getting completely out of control. it doesn't really stop him, per se, but it does speed everyone else up!
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When I hear low answers, going answer heavy sucks because it means you have to answer them all. I would rather go to the other extreme and play something so explosive aggro that they have to run answers to stop you. Plus, the eldrazi have little to no impact against token builds.
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Good advice from ISB too if you don't mind winning very quickly.
Stay away from trying to counter everything because you'll run out of cards in hand doing so.
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:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
@Sonik
I believe the OP said that MLD is soft-banned in his play group.
BBB Two Hundred Zombies BBB
Duel Commander
WR Tajic, Wrath of the Manlands RW
BGW Doran Destruction WGB
Commander
GUB Mimeoplasm, Screw Politics BUG
BR Mogis, God of Slaughter RB
RGW Marath, Ramp and Removal WGR
WUBRG Karona, Jank God GRBUW
Super fast aggro or lock-down decks.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
+1
Yeah until this post, it was kind of startling to hear 80% of the responses say Stax, and the other 20% say Counterspell Control. That's after the OP mentioning MLD is off. Pretty disconcerting if that's a representative survey. Stax tends to be really polarizing. The ramp.format crowd, aka the Spirit of EDH majority, may see LD as anathema for the very reason that it gets put in so often against them. On top of that, it often gets used in a slapdash way that just prolongs games. My take is that both Counter-Control and Stax take a truckload of skill with those archetypes as built specifically for this format. If done right, fine, but if done poorly they're very off putting. Then the ramp crowd draws all sorts of conclusions about the counter-ramp crowd, and a resistance against non-ramp gradually builds up because the supposition is that everything non-ramp IS Stax/LD. Not so.
My advice is the same as ISB's. Just play anything non-combo that's actually designed to win before Turn 9 if unanswered. Krenko, or Elf Ball, etc. Rafiq Vultron is adaptable and quick. Aurelia and Blight Dragon Vultron work too. Just play some smash-mouth Magic.
Beyond being effective, it also serves to separate the genuinely ramp-loving sheep from the just-want-to-win goats. Both will complain about Stax, but anyone touting the spirit of social play after getting attacked by a creature is on shaky legs. That lot will really just complain about anything that beats them, so it's no use trying. And I'm probably batting about .700 on drawing complaints against Sunforger from the folks on MODO. If I were playing Stax/MLD, I'd be all insecure wondering whether it was them or me.
Missed that. Kinda figured anyway though.
All these groups where big mana green decks with lots of ETB and Blink usually flourish because a lack of resource denial to keep them down. Big coincidence, huh?
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP