I put this on the other thread and I didnt want to type up something new so this is what I wrote:
Ok I've seen a lot of different views on this thread and I want to put in my opinion. What R_E did and has been doing for the past few years was not done to make him money or done to make Wizards lose money. He was giving up his own free time so that he could show these cards to public so that they could be excited and energetic. He was not doing anything wrong or unjust, but trying to make people excited about the new set. Yes, he put link for his store in his sig, but I do not think that it was a plot to make money from his store. I doubt that many people actually buy stuff from the store because of the link, and I don't think he makes that much money off of it. If anything, he was giving more business to Wizards by making the people more excited about the new set so that they buy more cards. If Wizards of the Coast successfully proves that what R_E was doing is against the law, than the law should be changed, because what he was doing was not wrong or unjust and did not make Wizards lose money. Sorry for the long comment and hopefully people will understand what I am trying to get at.
And to this:
Quote from Strovil »
Hasbro does not care.
Unless you bought your boxes from a WoTC store, you are not hurting them because they already sold it to your FLGS (favorite little game store).
That is not correct. If less people buy cards from your "FLGS" then it will order less cards less often from Wizards, meaning that it will eventually hurt Wizards.
Unless you bought your boxes from a WoTC store, you are not hurting them because they already sold it to your FLGS (favorite little game store).
Why is retail so hard a concept to grasp? If the card store can't sell something, they won't keep putting it on shelves.
That said, I do not recommend boycotting, because nothing has happened yet. And even if it were, I doubt that efforts to prove that posting rumors that you have heard on an internet site is illegal would work. As of right now, I am not worried about R_E or this site. WotC is just blowing off steam at their own failure to keep their employees from leaking info.
I was planning on buying a box of Guildpact...but not now and never again.
WOTC has just lost a loyal customer.
No one cares please stop posting this sort of thing
Quote from strongbad5656 »
That is not correct. If less people buy cards from your "FLGS" then it will order less cards less often from Wizards, meaning that it will eventually hurt Wizards.
it will hurt your local game store much more though.
No one cares please stop posting this sort of thing
Actually I think this thread is in the "Speak Your Mind" section, so his quote was fine, imo, he was just expressing his dissapointment and what he is going to do about it.
Quote from Treesrule14 »
it will hurt your local game store much more though.
Thats true, but that is still very bad for Wizards they need those stores to get business.
I recall people in the other thread saying how 'only a small population of players care about the spoilers, etc.', so when I went to the prerelease (Neutral Ground, holla at me), I was interested in what people would say. Out of all the guys I talked to (who were for the most part good) about half mentioned the spoiler but only a few knew about the R_E situation.
One of the most interesting thing was a conversation that two judges had that I eavesdropped on. One mentioned something along the lines of 'Wizards was upset about the leaked playtest card, but no one could have known whether it was real or not. I could make one up right now with a pen and paper and try to pass it off as real. He had no idea about the credibility of legality of the cards.' I think that is a very valid point.
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The above post gets my approval-:spock:
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(no seriously, PM me with something good and Ill put it here)
Thats true, but that is still very bad for Wizards they need those stores to get business.
Considering Ravnica has generated the highest prerelease numbers, and possibly initial sales figures as well, a scattered boycott is unlikely to put sales much, if anything, below normal.
And even assuming that such a boycott did affect Wizards, it would do so in two poor ways:
1- By cutting into the sales of FLGSs, possibly putting some out of business (if they rely primarily on Magic sales and those players boycott), and
2- Well past both Guildpact and the lawsuit, isolating the sales from the reasons. And since the players who staged the boycott would no longer be customers, Wizards has little incentive to cater to them.
Boycott is a fine thing to cry out but it takes a particular kind of situation to work. The manner in which Magic is distributed sets it firmly outside that situation.
One of the most interesting thing was a conversation that two judges had that I eavesdropped on. One mentioned something along the lines of 'Wizards was upset about the leaked playtest card, but no one could have known whether it was real or not. I could make one up right now with a pen and paper and try to pass it off as real. He had no idea about the credibility of legality of the cards.' I think that is a very valid point.
Unfortunately, thanks to the eagle eyes of the guys in the Rumor Mill, it would very quickly be discovered as a fake unless you went to a lot of effort. That's the problem - the playtest cards are as authentic as you can get, compared to previous ones seen on mtg.com, and they've practically given away what the next set will be. Not to mention that the playtest cards will have brought back the pesky rumors of "Magic is dying, they have no more ideas, they must reuse old mechanics!" That's a serious blow to the brand and the set, as Wizards have said. They do appear have a case. They don't mind if you find spoilers in the lead up to a new set - that's inevitable, but the playtest card leak is far more serious.
The Wizards press realease states that the company is suing RE becuase he "intentionally and repeatedly posted on the site Wizards’ proprietary information he unlawfully obtained." Wouldn't this indicate that the lawsuit is due to RE's years of obtaining spoiler information and not his posting of the supposed Snap playtest cards?
While we might enjoy getting the spoilers early, I do think that Wizards might have a case here. When the set turns out to be a dissapointment (i.e. Guildpact, which has been much complained about) the spoilers probably hurt sales of the set. In this case, with several high-profile cards being spoiled as more powerful than they actually are (Wreak Havoc, Giant Solifuge), the dissapointment in the set is increased by the early information. If we had never thought that Wreak Havoc cost 1GR, or that Solifuge had 3 toughness instead of 1, we would be a lot less dissapointed with Guildpact as a whole.
Do the corporate whores at Wizards have families (souls, consciences)?!?
How can Wiz on the People...err...Wizards of the Coast...think leaking sets harms sales, which is their bottom line?!? This reeks of 10 years of built up repression over the internet's changing of how Magic spoilers are received.
Methinks WotC should just follow the previews here on their own (like you don't anyway) so their "previews" aren't just reviews...which this is probably about anyway(just imagine, Maro has his card article nearly finalized, and a card gets leaked...awww...)
Well, it seems the cache of drugs used for creating Urza's Saga block has been rediscovered...Shame on you, WotC, from someone whose dream job was to work for you (I am crooked_rain...hey, I love designing)
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"I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." - Stephen Jay Gould
Unfortunately, thanks to the eagle eyes of the guys in the Rumor Mill, it would very quickly be discovered as a fake unless you went to a lot of effort. That's the problem - the playtest cards are as authentic as you can get, compared to previous ones seen on mtg.com, and they've practically given away what the next set will be. Not to mention that the playtest cards will have brought back the pesky rumors of "Magic is dying, they have no more ideas, they must reuse old mechanics!" That's a serious blow to the brand and the set, as Wizards have said. They do appear have a case. They don't mind if you find spoilers in the lead up to a new set - that's inevitable, but the playtest card leak is far more serious.
I_F
Well, WotC messing their pants over these cards is all anyone needs for confirmation. So, why cry about it? How does that help??!?
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"I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." - Stephen Jay Gould
Well, WotC messing their pants over these cards is all anyone needs for confirmation. So, why cry about it? How does that help??!?
Well Wizards clearly doesn't want it to happen again, so they're trying to either find out who is leaking cards to RE or scare people from giving him information in the future.
It's about time someone put a stop to this. I'm glad to see WOTC finally step up and address a problem that's been hurting the game for years. Although it's too bad for R_E I guess.
First, MtGArghun is correct that Wizards is doing what it should to protect its copyrights.
Second, considering how R_E gets a lot of his information (anonymous electronic communication), how invasive, exactly, do you want Hasbro to be in its employees' lives? Should they load spyware on their home computers and hire PIs to follow them around?
Third, Hasbro has its own lawyers on retainer. They collect tons of cash whether they go to court or not. Given the choice between doing (relatively) nothing for a ton of cash and doing something for it, I am sure most would prefer to do nothing.
Fourth, there is no way they are suing R_E for monetary damages. R_E does not have any money as far as Hasbro is concerned.
And fifth, they are not going after R_E. They are going after his sources and he just has the unfortunate position of being the middle man.
1)It's copyrights have not been violated, read up on copyright law if you are curious.
2)I don't care much about company policy toward employees, it's between them.
3)Working on a case makes much more money than sitting on a retainer deposit.
4)Money or no, it is an inappropriate hassle to put on R_E.
5)You state the obvious.
Unless you bought your boxes from a WoTC store, you are not hurting them because they already sold it to your FLGS (favorite little game store).
U sir are an idiot. If they sold it to the store and the store cant sell it then the store are unlikely to get more booster box and this mean Hasbro will lose business. Either way they can also refund the booster box.
I havent had the time yet to comment on the R_E situation so I shall now.
Wizards seems to be very mistaken in fileing suit against R_E; This site and his spoilers are what keeps myself (and I suspect many others) interested inthe new sets that are comming out. R_E is not being paid by mtgsalvation for his information so Wizards really has no way of forceing R_E to reveal his sources (and that is assumeing he knows who they are).
This next part is directed at those of you who say you are going to stop buying magic and all wizards products.... yeah right. Outside of finding out that the ink on the cards is made out of the blood of children worked to death in the Wizard sweat shops, I seriously doubt that any of you are going to stop playing over this. People swore to stop playing on forums many a time over the years for numerous reasons and I bet they are still playing.
Anyways Im sure R_E will come out of this thing unscathed and wizards will think twice before pulling this again once they see the out cry from the community. It's just not worth the bad press.
-T-
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Standard-WW, Artifact/W Aggro.
Extended-?
Legacy-Mono Blue Fish.
Remember the poll they did on the website? "How confident are you in the colors of the guilds in Guildpact?" I was wondering if that was a subtle quiz to "Are you reading the spoilers?" The results sure as hell seemed to suggest we are!
[proudly] Not me. I looked at the Guildpact logo when I saw it on Wizards of the Coast and said "Tree on fire? Must be red/green!" Then I saw the dragon logo, and was confused until I remembered that the leader of the Izzet was a dragon. Then, with the knowledge that each color had to be represented at least once in each set, I realized that neither white or black had been accounted for yet, and the only guild with both was Orzhov. QED.
I support the right of Wizards of the Coast to protect its intellectual property. Good-bye.
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Wizards of the Coast has the right to protect its intellectual property.
I'm surprised none of the other Magic sites have said anything today (Monday) on the front page. Londes.com seems to be the only site with an article on the situation.
The whole issue seems to have died down quite a bit. That's not a good thing if people are still so irrate about it and want something done.
I don't think people are terribly irate about it though in general.
Also, it would appear that Invoke the Firemind originally cost XUR in development... and not so coincedentally, it cost XUR originally on the spoiler and was one of the first cards there. Then it was upped to XUUR later. Though possibly coincidence, much more likely it is indicative of a breach in NDA somewhere in development, yet another nail in his coffin.
So, did anyone manage to put together a petition?
I'd sign it, regardless of the outcome. WOTC needs to understand that this suit has caused quite a bit of unrest.
Whether or not you agree with the case, its still a shocking situation when the majority of the online Magic community goes into a rampage, so to speak.
I very much doubt that Wizards pays too much attention when "the majority of the online Magic community goes into a rampage." We go into a rampage after any surprising change is made (new card frames anyone?) and then it dies down after a few days/weeks. Plus the online community only makes up a small percentage of the total number of Magic players anyway.
I very much doubt that Wizards pays too much attention when "the majority of the online Magic community goes into a rampage." We go into a rampage after any surprising change is made (new card frames anyone?) and then it dies down after a few days/weeks. Plus the online community only makes up a small percentage of the total number of Magic players anyway.
Wizards clearly cares enough about the online community to take legal action regarding it.
I don't think people are terribly irate about it though in general.
Also, it would appear that Invoke the Firemind originally cost XUR in development... and not so coincedentally, it cost XUR originally on the spoiler and was one of the first cards there. Then it was upped to XUUR later. Though possibly coincidence, much more likely it is indicative of a breach in NDA somewhere in development, yet another nail in his coffin.
Unfortunately, all of the cards spoiled for Guildpact that had incorrect casting costs (Wreck Havoc and Invoke the Firemind are brought up) turned out to be incorrect for a very simple reason, admitted near the end of the rumor mill season.
The source that sent R_E those cards admitted that he guessed at the CC's, because he did not have them in his information. (Which is why we got many cards later on with unknown casting costs and/or p/ts) Any information that was off over the course of this rumor mill season was the fault of poor guessing and NOT because R_E was being fed 'early' information. It also stands to be said that none of R_E's sources have ever really been 'early' information.
The times we have had early information involved print sheets, and that was kinda illegal, but it didn't involve R_E. (Threshold/Flashback with Pillow_Wasp, Invasion print sheet, another time that I forget)
Also, Giant Solifuge not being 4/3 is rumor mill poster's fault, because they imagined the 3 and made it that way.
If I could do it again, I would have never put it in the spoiler as 4/3, but too little too late I guess.
None of these changes are going to drastically affect sales though. The set is still pretty good.
I hope that this is just WoTC trying to smoke out the sources. I just hope that R_E is able to get WoTC off his back.
Also, in today's MaRo article, he says they have several mechanics 'on deck', so they are far from running out of ideas. If they did a 'blast from the past' block, it would be done for good reason.
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News and spoiler contributor for GatheringMagic.com
A petition for what? It won't change the course of events that is going to take place.
Quote from nandabanaotakun »
Why is retail so hard a concept to grasp? If the card store can't sell something, they won't keep putting it on shelves.
Yes, you could possibly kill the sales of Magic cards in your store (which I'm sure your shopowner will just love you for, after all, you're only destroying an aspect of his business that he generates his livelihood off of), but what about the shops in the UK? Germany? Japan? Norway? (insert foreign country here)?
No boycott can make the slightest dent in sales for Hasbro.
Quote from Tremnar »
Anyways Im sure R_E will come out of this thing unscathed and wizards will think twice before pulling this again once they see the out cry from the community. It's just not worth the bad press.
-T-
Yeah, and you can expect the new card faces to go away soon and the old ones will be back. I mean, there was a huge outcry from the community about that, wasn't there?
Just to put things in perspective, Hasbro has 10,000,000 worldwide customers that buy Magic product. That's 10 million. Let's go out on a limb and suggest that 10,000 of those people (which is a huge overestimate) actually stop playing and buying the game. That is .1%... that's your outcry? They won't even bat an eyelash at that. They lose and gain 10 times that many customers a week.
Yeah, and you can expect the new card faces to go away soon and the old ones will be back. I mean, there was a huge outcry from the community about that, wasn't there?
Just to put things in perspective, Hasbro has 10,000,000 worldwide customers that buy Magic product. That's 10 million. Let's go out on a limb and suggest that 10,000 of those people (which is a huge overestimate) actually stop playing and buying the game. That is .1%... that's your outcry? They won't even bat an eyelash at that. They lose and gain 10 times that many customers a week.
Do you have those numbers on hand or are you guesstimating here
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And to this:
That is not correct. If less people buy cards from your "FLGS" then it will order less cards less often from Wizards, meaning that it will eventually hurt Wizards.
Magic Coffeehouse pwns.
CENT SPORTS!!
http://www.centsports.com/?opcode=94009
If you like sports or sports betting and you want a chance to win free money, you will love it.
That said, I do not recommend boycotting, because nothing has happened yet. And even if it were, I doubt that efforts to prove that posting rumors that you have heard on an internet site is illegal would work. As of right now, I am not worried about R_E or this site. WotC is just blowing off steam at their own failure to keep their employees from leaking info.
No one cares please stop posting this sort of thing
it will hurt your local game store much more though.
3-3 record in Iron Chef Salvation
Actually I think this thread is in the "Speak Your Mind" section, so his quote was fine, imo, he was just expressing his dissapointment and what he is going to do about it.
Thats true, but that is still very bad for Wizards they need those stores to get business.
Magic Coffeehouse pwns.
CENT SPORTS!!
http://www.centsports.com/?opcode=94009
If you like sports or sports betting and you want a chance to win free money, you will love it.
One of the most interesting thing was a conversation that two judges had that I eavesdropped on. One mentioned something along the lines of 'Wizards was upset about the leaked playtest card, but no one could have known whether it was real or not. I could make one up right now with a pen and paper and try to pass it off as real. He had no idea about the credibility of legality of the cards.' I think that is a very valid point.
Considering Ravnica has generated the highest prerelease numbers, and possibly initial sales figures as well, a scattered boycott is unlikely to put sales much, if anything, below normal.
And even assuming that such a boycott did affect Wizards, it would do so in two poor ways:
1- By cutting into the sales of FLGSs, possibly putting some out of business (if they rely primarily on Magic sales and those players boycott), and
2- Well past both Guildpact and the lawsuit, isolating the sales from the reasons. And since the players who staged the boycott would no longer be customers, Wizards has little incentive to cater to them.
Boycott is a fine thing to cry out but it takes a particular kind of situation to work. The manner in which Magic is distributed sets it firmly outside that situation.
Unfortunately, thanks to the eagle eyes of the guys in the Rumor Mill, it would very quickly be discovered as a fake unless you went to a lot of effort. That's the problem - the playtest cards are as authentic as you can get, compared to previous ones seen on mtg.com, and they've practically given away what the next set will be. Not to mention that the playtest cards will have brought back the pesky rumors of "Magic is dying, they have no more ideas, they must reuse old mechanics!" That's a serious blow to the brand and the set, as Wizards have said. They do appear have a case. They don't mind if you find spoilers in the lead up to a new set - that's inevitable, but the playtest card leak is far more serious.
I_F
While we might enjoy getting the spoilers early, I do think that Wizards might have a case here. When the set turns out to be a dissapointment (i.e. Guildpact, which has been much complained about) the spoilers probably hurt sales of the set. In this case, with several high-profile cards being spoiled as more powerful than they actually are (Wreak Havoc, Giant Solifuge), the dissapointment in the set is increased by the early information. If we had never thought that Wreak Havoc cost 1GR, or that Solifuge had 3 toughness instead of 1, we would be a lot less dissapointed with Guildpact as a whole.
How can Wiz on the People...err...Wizards of the Coast...think leaking sets harms sales, which is their bottom line?!? This reeks of 10 years of built up repression over the internet's changing of how Magic spoilers are received.
Methinks WotC should just follow the previews here on their own (like you don't anyway) so their "previews" aren't just reviews...which this is probably about anyway(just imagine, Maro has his card article nearly finalized, and a card gets leaked...awww...)
Well, it seems the cache of drugs used for creating Urza's Saga block has been rediscovered...Shame on you, WotC, from someone whose dream job was to work for you (I am crooked_rain...hey, I love designing)
Well, WotC messing their pants over these cards is all anyone needs for confirmation. So, why cry about it? How does that help??!?
Well Wizards clearly doesn't want it to happen again, so they're trying to either find out who is leaking cards to RE or scare people from giving him information in the future.
1)It's copyrights have not been violated, read up on copyright law if you are curious.
2)I don't care much about company policy toward employees, it's between them.
3)Working on a case makes much more money than sitting on a retainer deposit.
4)Money or no, it is an inappropriate hassle to put on R_E.
5)You state the obvious.
U sir are an idiot. If they sold it to the store and the store cant sell it then the store are unlikely to get more booster box and this mean Hasbro will lose business. Either way they can also refund the booster box.
Wizards seems to be very mistaken in fileing suit against R_E; This site and his spoilers are what keeps myself (and I suspect many others) interested inthe new sets that are comming out. R_E is not being paid by mtgsalvation for his information so Wizards really has no way of forceing R_E to reveal his sources (and that is assumeing he knows who they are).
This next part is directed at those of you who say you are going to stop buying magic and all wizards products.... yeah right. Outside of finding out that the ink on the cards is made out of the blood of children worked to death in the Wizard sweat shops, I seriously doubt that any of you are going to stop playing over this. People swore to stop playing on forums many a time over the years for numerous reasons and I bet they are still playing.
Anyways Im sure R_E will come out of this thing unscathed and wizards will think twice before pulling this again once they see the out cry from the community. It's just not worth the bad press.
-T-
Extended-?
Legacy-Mono Blue Fish.
[proudly] Not me. I looked at the Guildpact logo when I saw it on Wizards of the Coast and said "Tree on fire? Must be red/green!" Then I saw the dragon logo, and was confused until I remembered that the leader of the Izzet was a dragon. Then, with the knowledge that each color had to be represented at least once in each set, I realized that neither white or black had been accounted for yet, and the only guild with both was Orzhov. QED.
I support the right of Wizards of the Coast to protect its intellectual property. Good-bye.
The whole issue seems to have died down quite a bit. That's not a good thing if people are still so irrate about it and want something done.
Also, it would appear that Invoke the Firemind originally cost XUR in development... and not so coincedentally, it cost XUR originally on the spoiler and was one of the first cards there. Then it was upped to XUUR later. Though possibly coincidence, much more likely it is indicative of a breach in NDA somewhere in development, yet another nail in his coffin.
I'd sign it, regardless of the outcome. WOTC needs to understand that this suit has caused quite a bit of unrest.
Whether or not you agree with the case, its still a shocking situation when the majority of the online Magic community goes into a rampage, so to speak.
Unfortunately, all of the cards spoiled for Guildpact that had incorrect casting costs (Wreck Havoc and Invoke the Firemind are brought up) turned out to be incorrect for a very simple reason, admitted near the end of the rumor mill season.
The source that sent R_E those cards admitted that he guessed at the CC's, because he did not have them in his information. (Which is why we got many cards later on with unknown casting costs and/or p/ts) Any information that was off over the course of this rumor mill season was the fault of poor guessing and NOT because R_E was being fed 'early' information. It also stands to be said that none of R_E's sources have ever really been 'early' information.
The times we have had early information involved print sheets, and that was kinda illegal, but it didn't involve R_E. (Threshold/Flashback with Pillow_Wasp, Invasion print sheet, another time that I forget)
Also, Giant Solifuge not being 4/3 is rumor mill poster's fault, because they imagined the 3 and made it that way.
If I could do it again, I would have never put it in the spoiler as 4/3, but too little too late I guess.
None of these changes are going to drastically affect sales though. The set is still pretty good.
I hope that this is just WoTC trying to smoke out the sources. I just hope that R_E is able to get WoTC off his back.
Also, in today's MaRo article, he says they have several mechanics 'on deck', so they are far from running out of ideas. If they did a 'blast from the past' block, it would be done for good reason.
Twitter
A petition for what? It won't change the course of events that is going to take place.
Yes, you could possibly kill the sales of Magic cards in your store (which I'm sure your shopowner will just love you for, after all, you're only destroying an aspect of his business that he generates his livelihood off of), but what about the shops in the UK? Germany? Japan? Norway? (insert foreign country here)?
No boycott can make the slightest dent in sales for Hasbro.
Yeah, and you can expect the new card faces to go away soon and the old ones will be back. I mean, there was a huge outcry from the community about that, wasn't there?
Just to put things in perspective, Hasbro has 10,000,000 worldwide customers that buy Magic product. That's 10 million. Let's go out on a limb and suggest that 10,000 of those people (which is a huge overestimate) actually stop playing and buying the game. That is .1%... that's your outcry? They won't even bat an eyelash at that. They lose and gain 10 times that many customers a week.