Do you have those numbers on hand or are you guesstimating here
10,000,000 is a fairly good guestimate on my part, in my opinion. I'm willing to agree that it could be less, but not by much. It's really not that high of a number when you think about the product they sell worldwide. In fact, there is probably at least half that many customers in the U.S. alone.
I am not good at doing google searches, but the figures are probably out there for someone to find.
Once again, Titanium Dragon, your lack of knowledge on this is sad. R_E can not be blamed or sued for others violating their NDA by telling him information so long as he is not coercing or soliciting that information.
The only person who can be reasonably blamed for violating an NDA is the person who broke their contract. Anyone else cannot be held liable unless they specifically coerced that information.
You can say that it is the right of WotC to attempt to stop their leaks, and you can say that it's even reasonable for them to sue others to do that - but blaming the reporter of that information is absurd.
Drug dealing is illegal. So is drug manufacturing.
Breaking an NDA is a violation of a contract and is a suable offense. Telling people information that others told you is NOT illegal. Period. Especially when framed in the context of 'rumors'.
It simply isn't. It is not intellectual property because it has no intrinsic value nor does it have the ability to be converted into value. It is not a trade secret because it is revealed openly and freely to all. It requires no reverse engineering. It is not a copyright violation because it falls under fair use and it is not being passed off as someone else's work.
I have been a member of this website for awhile and honestly I always half expected Rancored_Elf to get sued eventually. While it might not be flatout illegal it is kind of in a grey area of the law. Also in Wizards leak policy they do say that they will take legal action against those who distrubute leaks. From some of the other comments I get the impresion that the suit is actually caused by some playtest cards that made their way onto this site and not so much for the spoilers.
Also it is important to remember that he isn't being accused of commiting any crimes. This is a civil suit regarding intellectual property. As many people have said it probabaly isn't going to be about recieving money for he actions so much as finding out who is leaking the information and possibly issuing a cease and desist order against posting leaked information.
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People are products of their own ingenuity; they are who they choose to be.
I've recently aquainted myself with copyright protection as it pertains to recorded music as i'm starting up a music studio. I'm by no means knowledgable in copyright law. Nonetheless, I'm finding it hard to believe (despite the ever changing state of law) that any breach was made at all (excluding non-disclosure breaches on the mystery parties of course). If a popular pop-star is working on an upcoming album and the content is leaked as a song title, album title, etc, but no actual recorded music, no violation has occurred. Similarly, in this case, the casting cost, card title, mechanic, etc. was leaked but no actual image of the card itself. This is all assuming that no financial gain was made in the exchange of the information. I suppose that area can get a little foggy in some cases, for example, a printed mag may sell more copies based on leaked info.
This is only leaked info, no imitation or reproduction of intellectual property is involved.
All things being equal (there is much we don't know), the ramifications of R_E being guilty of anything in this case is incredibly scary with regards to freedom of the press. It is starting to sound similar to certain government leaks and the fascist threats made by a certain incompetent president, but I digress.
Just some thoughts....
While I understand that MTGS as a site is upset at the legal attacks against it and its administrators, I don’t feel that this condones idea censorship. Apparently blisterguy was banned for the following post:
“just an fyi. don't post that you agree with the legal action, your post will get deleted as both of mine have. you won't get any explanation as to why your freedom of speech is being hindered either. also, in case you're wondering, i none of my posts have i abused anyone or used abusive language. i even took the time to spellcheck my post
as i said, just an fyi”
I have never seen blisterguy “troll” or post anything abusive on your fora, yet he did post something seditious to the current MTGS line of how unjust/awful/scummy WOTC is for their actions. I personally disagree with WOTC’s tactics, but I also have problems with any forum censoring out disagreement like this. MiseTings has an (undeserved, in my opinion) reputation as being a site that exists to screw with MTGS. This isn’t true and 95% of what we talk about has nothing to do with MTGS. But when we do talk about it, one of the central problems is that MTGS seems to be a cult of personality. All large MTGS threads seem to follow a similar pattern: someone (usually RE) posts a new card, a hot issue, etc. and then hundreds of people reply yet say nothing. The thread becomes a hundred-page-long echo-chamber of ++ery. Sure there may be “arguments” over whether a card is fake or not, but it all boils down to “rumors are so awesome i love this omg gogo mtgs I love this place for ever and ever just my $0.02.” There is nothing wrong with being proud of your community, but you too-often take it to a point of childishness. Banning people who post thoughtful disagreements with the party-line just reinforces the idea that if you are not a blind follower, you don’t belong on MTGS.
Edit: Anyone else reminded of the mass-banning shananigans at the downfall of MTG: News?
"Freedom of speech is being violated....MTGS is a lot of people saying nothing....which is violation of freedom of speech."
Please stop trying to justify your silly comments by wrapping them in sandwiches of random people who got banned.
EDIT: Anyone else reminded of monsters who live under bridges and attack billygoats?
Honestly I had a post deleted just yesterday that was in no way inflammatory. Nor did I recieve any explanation for the deletion.
EDIT:
While I understand that MTGS as a site is upset at the legal attacks against it and its administrators, I don’t feel that this condones idea censorship. Apparently blisterguy was banned for the following post:
“just an fyi. don't post that you agree with the legal action, your post will get deleted as both of mine have. you won't get any explanation as to why your freedom of speech is being hindered either. also, in case you're wondering, i none of my posts have i abused anyone or used abusive language. i even took the time to spellcheck my post
as i said, just an fyi”
I have never seen blisterguy “troll” or post anything abusive on your fora, yet he did post something seditious to the current MTGS line of how unjust/awful/scummy WOTC is for their actions. I personally disagree with WOTC’s tactics, but I also have problems with any forum censoring out disagreement like this. MiseTings has an (undeserved, in my opinion) reputation as being a site that exists to screw with MTGS. This isn’t true and 95% of what we talk about has nothing to do with MTGS. But when we do talk about it, one of the central problems is that MTGS seems to be a cult of personality. All large MTGS threads seem to follow a similar pattern: someone (usually RE) posts a new card, a hot issue, etc. and then hundreds of people reply yet say nothing. The thread becomes a hundred-page-long echo-chamber of ++ery. Sure there may be “arguments” over whether a card is fake or not, but it all boils down to “rumors are so awesome i love this omg gogo mtgs I love this place for ever and ever just my $0.02.” There is nothing wrong with being proud of your community, but you too-often take it to a point of childishness. Banning people who post thoughtful disagreements with the party-line just reinforces the idea that if you are not a blind follower, you don’t belong on MTGS.
Edit: Anyone else reminded of the mass-banning shananigans at the downfall of MTG: News?
My point was not that the freedom of speech thing was unimportant, but that you just used it as an excuse to flame the entire board about totally unrelated things and get away with it. Which you did.
Saying that the community defends itself childishly because somebody gets modded is reaching. I am not a moderator, and last I checked, most members weren't either. Using a banning as proof of the idiocy of everyone on the site and blah bah about redundant posts in Rumor Mill has nothing to do with freedom of speech.
Unless, of course, we're talking about your freedom to incorporate forum politics into any situation that comes before you. In which case: hurray for you. You have issues with MTGS, and this is more "proof" that you are justified. Nobody cares.
In fact, I think I'll keep tabs on my post:deletion ratio
13 posts:13 deletions.
Deletion percentage: 50
My point was not that the freedom of speech thing was unimportant, but that you just used it as an excuse to flame the entire board about totally unrelated things and get away with it. Which you did.
This is pretty much what he was talking about. There's nothing he should have "gotten away with," by any reasonable standards.
There's nothing he should have "gotten away with," by any reasonable standards.
I was talking about this:
Quote from quasius »
All large MTGS threads seem to follow a similar pattern: someone (usually RE) posts a new card, a hot issue, etc. and then hundreds of people reply yet say nothing. The thread becomes a hundred-page-long echo-chamber of ++ery. Sure there may be “arguments” over whether a card is fake or not, but it all boils down to “rumors are so awesome i love this omg gogo mtgs I love this place for ever and ever just my $0.02.”
...which is pretty tangential to the issue at hand.
I don't think I've ever seen an "omg i wub this site" post, and why this has anything to do with anything other than insulting the intellegence of the average user on these forums is completely beyond me.
I was talking about this: ...which is pretty tangential to the issue at hand.
I don't think I've everr seen an "omg i wub this site" post, and why this has anything to do with anything other than insulting the intellegence of the average user on these forums is completely beyond me.
No it isn't. This censorship is just a different manifestation of the same problem. I explained that in my original post, btw.
I was talking about this: ...which is pretty tangential to the issue at hand.
I don't think I've ever seen an "omg i wub this site" post, and why this has anything to do with anything other than insulting the intellegence of the average user on these forums is completely beyond me.
I know what you were talking about. There's nothing there to get away with. He simply stated an opinion, and very tastefully at that. The fact that such a comment would in any feasible way warrant moderator response is not a good thing.
I know what you were talking about. There's nothing there to get away with. He simply stated an opinion, and very tastefully at that. The fact that such a comment would in any feasible way warrant moderator response is not a good thing.
There is nothing tasteful about saying that everything on the forums "all boils down to 'rumors are so awesome i love this omg gogo mtgs I love this place for ever and ever just my $0.02.'"
In fact, I characterize such an argument as the epitome of tastelessness.
It's just a random attack on forum members having nothing to do with anyone getting banned, which is what I have been saying all along. Please explain how the actions of the site's staff could possibly be proof of everyone here being stupid fanboys.
There is nothing tasteful about saying that everything on the forums "all boils down to 'rumors are so awesome i love this omg gogo mtgs I love this place for ever and ever just my $0.02.'"
In fact, I characterize such an argument as the epitome of tastelessness.
It's just a random attack on forum members having nothing to do with anyone getting banned, which is what I have been saying all along. Please explain how the actions of the site's staff could possibly be proof of everyone here being stupid fanboys.
He was very tasteful. He did not insult your mother, did not call you gay, and did not describe the violent rape/torture of yourself or others.
All he said was that this site is a monoculture where the dissenters are silenced or banned, and that that leads to a lack of interesting discussion. Personally, I prefer moderation by fire.
Removing all traces of the opposing viewpoint reeks of a one-sided community that doesn't tolerate any dissension to their views.
That said, it should also be mentioned that there's no freedom of speech here, or on most messageboards, for that matter. You'd think someone so long-lived (16000+ posts) at MT, of all places, would be well aware of this. I'm amazed he's so thin-skinned.
There is nothing tasteful about saying that everything on the forums "all boils down to 'rumors are so awesome i love this omg gogo mtgs I love this place for ever and ever just my $0.02.'"
In fact, I characterize such an argument as the epitome of tastelessness.
It's just a random attack on forum members having nothing to do with anyone getting banned, which is what I have been saying all along. Please explain how the actions of the site's staff could possibly be proof of everyone here being stupid fanboys.
All right, in case I was no clear enough I'll spell it out here. When a forum has a culture of everyone adoring a central ideal/leader to the point where tons of people post meaningless stuff just to say they posted in whatever thread about whatever card, it is not suprising that a few people who speak out against whatever the accepted stance on the current issue is get lynched.
Furthermore, it was hopefully obvious that I was not referring to every single salvation poster. There is good information on this site, but signal-to-noise ratio is so horrible that it is hard to find. For evey good, analytical post from someone who actually understands photoshop and image manipulation about the plausability of an image, there are 100 posts that say "FAKE!," "I love this card," "gogo <expansion set>," or whatever. And that type of self-congratulatory echoing leads to situations where dissenting opinions are not welcome.
Is that a little clearer now?
Removing all traces of the opposing viewpoint reeks of a one-sided community that doesn't tolerate any dissension to their views.
That said, it should also be mentioned that there's no freedom of speech here, or on most messageboards, for that matter. You'd think someone so long-lived (16000+ posts) at MT, of all places, would be well aware of this. I'm amazed he's so thin-skinned.
Depends on how you define "freedom of speech." Certain things are not covered, but I would generally hold dissenting viewpoints as exactly what should be covered.
Also, you have to try pretty hard to get banned at MT. There are a few things that cause an auto-timeout such as posting goatse, etc. But you have to try very, very hard to get banned just by posting things people don't agree with. You may very-well get flamed and laughed-at, but your posts won't be lobotomized from the forum.
Notice that the entire conversation about people speaking their mind and complaining about the boards has been kept around here. And some of it is against R_E. Crazy!
Maybe, just maybe, there was another reason that blisterguy got banned/modded other than 'speaking out against R_E'. I've seen plenty of posts that haven't been deleted that were in favor of WotC.
All right, in case I was no clear enough I'll spell it out here. When a forum has a culture of everyone adoring a central ideal/leader to the point where tons of people post meaningless stuff just to say they posted in whatever thread about whatever card, it is not suprising that a few people who speak out against whatever the accepted stance on the current issue is get lynched.
Furthermore, it was hopefully obvious that I was not referring to every single salvation poster. There is good information on this site, but signal-to-noise ratio is so horrible that it is hard to find. For evey good, analytical post from someone who actually understands photoshop and image manipulation about the plausability of an image, there are 100 posts that say "FAKE!," "I love this card," "gogo <expansion set>," or whatever. And that type of self-congratulatory echoing leads to situations where dissenting opinions are not welcome.
Is that a little clearer now?
Yes, but portraying this site as if it were a cult is just a bit on the insane side. Most people who post 1 liners about how cool a card is just saw it spoiled and want to voice their opinion. This is in no way evidence that everyone has sold their soul to R_E. It's just proof that there are a lot of members, many of which just log on, check the new cards, reply to say that they are good, and log off. If anything, this implies that they are not fanatics at all.
And even if these members were fanatics, how does their opinion influence the actions of mods? This isn't some "hive mind." Relatively few people are responsible for deleting posts, and most of those people are more annoyed at members who post redundant information than you are.
Well, I tend to go by the constitutional definition, which basically states that the government can't restrict your speech. Now, unless MTGS is run by the US government, they can restrict you all they want, because it's their playground. They have rules, and yeah, technically, you can pretty much be assured of safely posting things if you follow them. But you can also piss them off, or they simply might not like you. Or, I'm guessing, in the case of blisterguy, they probably just don't want to deal with an MT "invasion" (psyburat/Gpiledriver/whoever else) and jumped the gun. Who knows?
But hiding behind freedom of speech is just a silly thing to do.
Yes, but portraying this site as if it were a cult is just a bit on the insane side. Most people who post 1 liners about how cool a card is just saw it spoiled and want to voice their opinion. This is in no way evidence that everyone has sold their soul to R_E. It's just proof that there are a lot of members, many of which just log on, check the new cards, reply to say that they are good, and log off. If anything, this implies that they are not fanatics at all.
I'm not calling the site a cult in the religious sense. The phrase "cult of personality" has a specific meaning that I believe applies here.
Notice that the entire conversation about people speaking their mind and complaining about the boards has been kept around here. And some of it is against R_E. Crazy!
Maybe, just maybe, there was another reason that blisterguy got banned/modded other than 'speaking out against R_E'. I've seen plenty of posts that haven't been deleted that were in favor of WotC.
But hey, think what you like.
There was *no reason given* for blisterguy's ban. His ban notices reads "causing problems for the site." So the logical conclusion is that he was banned for his final post. If someone involved in the banning wants to clarify the reason, I might change my opinion of the situation.
And honeslty, I was half-expecting to get my post promptly deleted. So either the mods have not seen it yet, or they have decided to loosen up. If it's the latter, I'll give credit where it's due.
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10,000,000 is a fairly good guestimate on my part, in my opinion. I'm willing to agree that it could be less, but not by much. It's really not that high of a number when you think about the product they sell worldwide. In fact, there is probably at least half that many customers in the U.S. alone.
I am not good at doing google searches, but the figures are probably out there for someone to find.
Once again, Titanium Dragon, your lack of knowledge on this is sad. R_E can not be blamed or sued for others violating their NDA by telling him information so long as he is not coercing or soliciting that information.
The only person who can be reasonably blamed for violating an NDA is the person who broke their contract. Anyone else cannot be held liable unless they specifically coerced that information.
You can say that it is the right of WotC to attempt to stop their leaks, and you can say that it's even reasonable for them to sue others to do that - but blaming the reporter of that information is absurd.
Breaking an NDA is a violation of a contract and is a suable offense. Telling people information that others told you is NOT illegal. Period. Especially when framed in the context of 'rumors'.
It simply isn't. It is not intellectual property because it has no intrinsic value nor does it have the ability to be converted into value. It is not a trade secret because it is revealed openly and freely to all. It requires no reverse engineering. It is not a copyright violation because it falls under fair use and it is not being passed off as someone else's work.
Also it is important to remember that he isn't being accused of commiting any crimes. This is a civil suit regarding intellectual property. As many people have said it probabaly isn't going to be about recieving money for he actions so much as finding out who is leaking the information and possibly issuing a cease and desist order against posting leaked information.
This is only leaked info, no imitation or reproduction of intellectual property is involved.
All things being equal (there is much we don't know), the ramifications of R_E being guilty of anything in this case is incredibly scary with regards to freedom of the press. It is starting to sound similar to certain government leaks and the fascist threats made by a certain incompetent president, but I digress.
Just some thoughts....
“just an fyi. don't post that you agree with the legal action, your post will get deleted as both of mine have. you won't get any explanation as to why your freedom of speech is being hindered either. also, in case you're wondering, i none of my posts have i abused anyone or used abusive language. i even took the time to spellcheck my post
as i said, just an fyi”
I have never seen blisterguy “troll” or post anything abusive on your fora, yet he did post something seditious to the current MTGS line of how unjust/awful/scummy WOTC is for their actions. I personally disagree with WOTC’s tactics, but I also have problems with any forum censoring out disagreement like this.
MiseTings has an (undeserved, in my opinion) reputation as being a site that exists to screw with MTGS. This isn’t true and 95% of what we talk about has nothing to do with MTGS. But when we do talk about it, one of the central problems is that MTGS seems to be a cult of personality. All large MTGS threads seem to follow a similar pattern: someone (usually RE) posts a new card, a hot issue, etc. and then hundreds of people reply yet say nothing. The thread becomes a hundred-page-long echo-chamber of ++ery. Sure there may be “arguments” over whether a card is fake or not, but it all boils down to “rumors are so awesome i love this omg gogo mtgs I love this place for ever and ever just my $0.02.” There is nothing wrong with being proud of your community, but you too-often take it to a point of childishness.
Banning people who post thoughtful disagreements with the party-line just reinforces the idea that if you are not a blind follower, you don’t belong on MTGS.
Edit: Anyone else reminded of the mass-banning shananigans at the downfall of MTG: News?
Please stop trying to justify your silly comments by wrapping them in sandwiches of random people who got banned.
EDIT: Anyone else reminded of monsters who live under bridges and attack billygoats?
EDIT:
Quoted for solidarity
First, blisterguy is not a random. Second, it doesn't matter. It's the reason he was banned that is important.
Saying that the community defends itself childishly because somebody gets modded is reaching. I am not a moderator, and last I checked, most members weren't either. Using a banning as proof of the idiocy of everyone on the site and blah bah about redundant posts in Rumor Mill has nothing to do with freedom of speech.
Unless, of course, we're talking about your freedom to incorporate forum politics into any situation that comes before you. In which case: hurray for you. You have issues with MTGS, and this is more "proof" that you are justified. Nobody cares.
13 posts:13 deletions.
Deletion percentage: 50
This is pretty much what he was talking about. There's nothing he should have "gotten away with," by any reasonable standards.
I don't think I've ever seen an "omg i wub this site" post, and why this has anything to do with anything other than insulting the intellegence of the average user on these forums is completely beyond me.
No it isn't. This censorship is just a different manifestation of the same problem. I explained that in my original post, btw.
In fact, I characterize such an argument as the epitome of tastelessness.
It's just a random attack on forum members having nothing to do with anyone getting banned, which is what I have been saying all along. Please explain how the actions of the site's staff could possibly be proof of everyone here being stupid fanboys.
All he said was that this site is a monoculture where the dissenters are silenced or banned, and that that leads to a lack of interesting discussion. Personally, I prefer moderation by fire.
That said, it should also be mentioned that there's no freedom of speech here, or on most messageboards, for that matter. You'd think someone so long-lived (16000+ posts) at MT, of all places, would be well aware of this. I'm amazed he's so thin-skinned.
All right, in case I was no clear enough I'll spell it out here. When a forum has a culture of everyone adoring a central ideal/leader to the point where tons of people post meaningless stuff just to say they posted in whatever thread about whatever card, it is not suprising that a few people who speak out against whatever the accepted stance on the current issue is get lynched.
Furthermore, it was hopefully obvious that I was not referring to every single salvation poster. There is good information on this site, but signal-to-noise ratio is so horrible that it is hard to find. For evey good, analytical post from someone who actually understands photoshop and image manipulation about the plausability of an image, there are 100 posts that say "FAKE!," "I love this card," "gogo <expansion set>," or whatever. And that type of self-congratulatory echoing leads to situations where dissenting opinions are not welcome.
Is that a little clearer now?
Depends on how you define "freedom of speech." Certain things are not covered, but I would generally hold dissenting viewpoints as exactly what should be covered.
Also, you have to try pretty hard to get banned at MT. There are a few things that cause an auto-timeout such as posting goatse, etc. But you have to try very, very hard to get banned just by posting things people don't agree with. You may very-well get flamed and laughed-at, but your posts won't be lobotomized from the forum.
Maybe, just maybe, there was another reason that blisterguy got banned/modded other than 'speaking out against R_E'. I've seen plenty of posts that haven't been deleted that were in favor of WotC.
But hey, think what you like.
And even if these members were fanatics, how does their opinion influence the actions of mods? This isn't some "hive mind." Relatively few people are responsible for deleting posts, and most of those people are more annoyed at members who post redundant information than you are.
But hiding behind freedom of speech is just a silly thing to do.
I'm not calling the site a cult in the religious sense. The phrase "cult of personality" has a specific meaning that I believe applies here.
There was *no reason given* for blisterguy's ban. His ban notices reads "causing problems for the site." So the logical conclusion is that he was banned for his final post. If someone involved in the banning wants to clarify the reason, I might change my opinion of the situation.
And honeslty, I was half-expecting to get my post promptly deleted. So either the mods have not seen it yet, or they have decided to loosen up. If it's the latter, I'll give credit where it's due.