This thread is not intended to cause flames bickering or annoying disputes....if it deludes into that, please lock it, but do not disregard it. The post is serious, and please take it that way.
Before i begin my shpiel, let me introduce myself.
I've been a member more or less since the R_E joined the site, and never was on MTGNews.
I have 2 warnings and have been given 2 infractions...both infractions in the entertainment forum; one for forgetting to spoilerize my post, and another for double posting. Nothing serious.
Furthermore, i have no issue with seds personally. I do not dislike him. Lesurgo i have disliked for over a year. But i hope you'll realize that the following plea is unbiased in any way, and does not stem from this dislike.
------------------------------------------------
It is time for us to have new admins. There's been 2 changes of the guard here at mtgs since its conception...the first being when xenphire left; the 2nd being after belgareth was de-admined. I wasnt particularly active enough to care about the xenph one at the time, but the belg one was completely justified.
And just like that time, a change in admins is needed here.
Neither of the two current admins has been anywhere near the level of these two predecessors. But they have proven in recent events to be immature and incapable of handling the job properly as an admin. (They have proven to be capable of modding forums though).
I agreed with banning KCW...like TFE he shouldve been banned a long time coming before the banning. I could see the reasoning in a butte ban, though i wasnt particularly for it.
I thought that PJ mightve deserved banning for actions he had taken.
So why my complaint? Simple, the way these events were handled were horrible, and their repercussions have caused changes in this site. PJ deserved banning earlier, when he was deliberately (he told me this on irc) provoking and stirring the pot in the butte's banned thread/s. And yet when PJ posts an issue with a mod's infractions in a thread, seds a few posts later just bans him, despite this infraction being completely pointless. The result? Anger at the admins for seemingly-trying to shut down opposition to mod rule.
The situation was easily avoided, and yet due to mod error in handling this, it was not. Then came the handling of the vocal minority threads and whatnot, where the mods shutdown a conversation that hardly seemed inappropriate.
Then a few mods resigned, compounding issues. The forum drama only increased.
Now we have the new mod changes, particularly with craven. Now i never really interacted with him, and 2 of my friends hated him with a passion and are overjoyed (their names will be undisclosed). But the reasoning given in the PM to craven is awful. If you thought he was modding irresponsibly, is he not entitled to a warning about it? Surely at least a friendly pm! Instead, BAM! you took an action that was 99% of the time going to lead toward his resignation.
Now i see R&RR was banned....which seems dumb even more. Why not simply suspend him? His posts were angry and abrasive, but to ban someone for "anger management" is hardly proper mod policy.
It's time for a change. I have no ulterior motive here, and would be happy if les and seds remain mods of the forums they currently are. But the drama in sym can be stopped simply and easily, and then mtgs can go on, by a simple resignation of admin powers.
There certainly are capable candidates among the mod squad for new admins. I think its time to give them that chance.
-loran
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Neither of the two current admins has been anywhere near the level of these two predecessors. But they have proven in recent events to be immature and incapable of handling the job properly as an admin. (They have proven to be capable of modding forums though).
Immature?
I have been on vacation for the past week.
Care to explain?
I agreed with banning KCW...like TFE he shouldve been banned a long time coming before the banning. I could see the reasoning in a butte ban, though i wasnt particularly for it.
I thought that PJ mightve deserved banning for actions he had taken.
Alright.
So why my complaint? Simple, the way these events were handled were horrible, and their repercussions have caused changes in this site. PJ deserved banning earlier, when he was deliberately (he told me this on irc) provoking and stirring the pot in the butte's banned thread/s. And yet when PJ posts an issue with a mod's infractions in a thread, seds a few posts later just bans him, despite this infraction being completely pointless. The result? Anger at the admins for seemingly-trying to shut down opposition to mod rule.
Wrong.
Unfortunately, during the entire BB/KCW thread, Lesurgo and I decided to hold off on moderating several members on the thread, to allow for a 'more open' discussion of the issue. I do agree that PJ was a problem then, and he was suspended because of it.
He had 4 active infractions, one that was borderline, and one (the second thread) that he disagreed with, but in the context of the thread, was appropriate. The administration was giving him the benefit of the doubt. I had no problem with him opposing moderations, not at all. When someone is being given the benefit of the doubt, and then they go and curse the staff and decide to have a very immature attitude in relation to a moderation...they no longer deserve to have the benefit of the doubt.
If we had threads like that one, with attitudes like those posted, they would be infracted. Why? Because it is anything but constructive and there is really no good way to say that it could be. We did NOT infract that thread. He had enough infractions added to a VERY recent suspension, so he was banned. He actually IM'd me afterwards and was very polite, and it speaks strongly for how inappropriate his thread was. He is highly capable of posting intelligently, but he chose not to.
The situation was easily avoided, and yet due to mod error in handling this, it was not. Then came the handling of the vocal minority threads and whatnot, where the mods shutdown a conversation that hardly seemed inappropriate.
I wasn't here for that thread.
Then a few mods resigned, compounding issues. The forum drama only increased.
Now we have the new mod changes, particularly with craven. Now i never really interacted with him, and 2 of my friends hated him with a passion and are overjoyed (their names will be undisclosed). But the reasoning given in the PM to craven is awful. If you thought he was modding irresponsibly, is he not entitled to a warning about it? Surely at least a friendly pm! Instead, BAM! you took an action that was 99% of the time going to lead toward his resignation.
I didn't know what the exact PM was (again, on vacation), but this was a decision based on how he was handling his position as a global moderator, and nothing personal to his moderating style or opinions. I am upset that he resigned.
Now i see R&RR was banned....which seems dumb even more. Why not simply suspend him? His posts were angry and abrasive, but to ban someone for "anger management" is hardly proper mod policy.
Do you actually honestly think he was going to wise up?
I wasn't here for that either, so I guess I don't know the entire situation.
It's time for a change. I have no ulterior motive here, and would be happy if les and seds remain mods of the forums they currently are. But the drama in sym can be stopped simply and easily, and then mtgs can go on, by a simple resignation of admin powers.
That will NOT stop the drama, sorry to say.
There certainly are capable candidates among the mod squad for new admins. I think its time to give them that chance.
-loran
It is likely time for a third admin to be appointed, as Lesugro and I have discussed earlier.
I will discuss that with Lesurgo soon.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
News and spoiler contributor for GatheringMagic.com
I'll concede this much. But it would alleviate user fears that the admins are being a little authoritarian.
Do you actually honestly think he was going to wise up?
I wasn't here for that either, so I guess I don't know the entire situation.
This is an attitude that is inappropriate. From what i saw, the way R&RR went about his argument with the mods was not inappropriate. Yes, he was rough and angry, but he was fine. If you'd rather him post in help desks, as expected, then why not delete the thread (or some other mod), post his op in the proper help desk, and then pm him to tell him of what happened?
I didn't know what the exact PM was (again, on vacation), but this was a decision based on how he was handling his position as a global moderator, and nothing personal to his moderating style or opinions. I am upset that he resigned.
Then you were being shortsighted in every way. A. this doesnt explain not warning him about his improper use of the position and advice for changing his use of it and B. how you could think that a demotion for a emotional guy like Craven wouldnt end up in his resignation is beyond me.
We did NOT infract that thread. He had enough infractions added to a VERY recent suspension, so he was banned
But the way you went about his banning was crude rough, and caused all the drama around it in the 1st place. Seriously, look at the QFT post again. It's got an emotionally angry tone to it, and when you read it in context seems to be in direct response to PJ's opposition. OF COURSE people were going to get upset.
Like i said, i know pj/shea, and i didnt mind the banning. He is a smart guy. But the way you went about it was ...just godawful. It seemed immature, like you were letting anger over the poster go to your head.
The treatment of craven, and the shutting down of the vocal minority post seemed to be immature as well, as if the admin responsible (i dont know what part each of you played) was angry and wanted to stop the discussion now in the case of the vm thread, and to eliminate an annoying mod to them in craven in the other.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Mind you, R&RR's actions are...pathetic to say the least, i dont mean to defend him. But the tone taken by mods is....ugh.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
It is likely time for a third admin to be appointed, as Lesugro and I have discussed earlier.
I will discuss that with Lesurgo soon.
I believe that Binary has been given that job.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Scott Adams... Nothing defines humans better than their willingness to do irrational things in the pursuit of phenomenally unlikely payoffs. This is the principle behind lotteries, dating, and religion
This is becoming interesting. While i am newer to the forums and newer to the forum outside of market street i have to say some of the things being done by lesurgo at least seem out of place. However i dont know the full story behind it all. I do agree that craven was doing a good job as a mod from what i saw and would love to see him back. Loran i do disagree with you on one thing though. R&RR was doing his best to get banned and everyone knows it read the thread where he posted pictures of a giant hand flipping the bird ect. He was trying to do it... he suceeded
Loran16: Please, on the sake of R&RR. You did not see the PM's he sent me, Les and Annorax. Or the **** he was trying to pull. His attitude in the PM's were even worse then the way he behaved in the forums. And he even threw this ridiculous fit based of his own lie and he tried to make as much havoc as he could about it. And If you wan't to you can read all my responces to his PM's. I was being civil and plain about the issue at all times. But that didn't do much good in this case. Also I don't know if you saw the thread he made when I closed it? He posted a large picture of a hand giving the finger. Seriously, anyone as childish, and whit as much attitude problems, anger problems, inability to listen to reason or to be able to calm himself down at all does not belong here on the forum.
As for new leadership I won't comment on it much, but I'm glad to hear that a third admin is being thought of. It has always seemed much easier to decide things when you are 3 then when you are two. Especially if the two disagree on matters.
Atog: Binary was made global moderator, not admin.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Einstein »
Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism -how passionately I hate them!
Quote from Nietzsche »
The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.
[thread=41221][my extendo sig][/thread] [thread=56664][moderator helpdesk][/thread] [Pen and Paper Inn]
Just add me on msn if you have any questions or just want to talk
I think what Les and Seds did to Craven was definitely wrong, as he in my opinion put more into these forums then any moderator I have seen since I joined. I also think the the banning of PJ was handled horribly (even though he deserved it), and I was sad to see Kashmyr go because of it. BUT even with those mistakes I think taking down the current Admins is the wrong way to approach the situation. What Seds said about adding a third Admin seems like a step in the right direction, at least in this one's humble opinion.
Don't get me started on the Rock n Roll Romeo banning, he blew a simple warning way out of proportion, his thread was a joke and he deserved exactly what he got. Flipping out over the mods simply requesting him to change his banner didn't help his case much either.
I just realized. Mycoloth perfectly demonstrates the devour mechanic.
Mycoloth: NOMNOMNOM on Dragon Fodder.
One turn later, 1/1 turds come out.
Quote from kalkris »
btw i did it because i could. i was bored and decided to let my little med-free spree go ahead. I am bipolar, explaining all the drama that ensued after. I have problems.
Quote from ShadowWaveInc. »
Jon Finkel can simply walk into Mordor.
"When an artist dies the world loses two lives, that of the artist and that of his unfinished work."
Without speaking as to the validity of the actual issues presented on this thread, adding an additional admin would hardly solve anything. At best, it might lead to some of the decisions being tempered; at worst, they would be inactive and the status quo maintained.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Sing lustily and with good courage.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
No, Binary was promoted to Global Moderator. We currently only have two admins (urzassedatives and Lesurgo).
Sorry I was wrong
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Scott Adams... Nothing defines humans better than their willingness to do irrational things in the pursuit of phenomenally unlikely payoffs. This is the principle behind lotteries, dating, and religion
Fair enough nan. Ill concede the r and rr point though the rest of my points are still valid.
And i dont think adding a 3rd admin solves anything really.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
It's not that just another Admin needs to be appointed. 3 Admins isn't necessarily some magical solution. The problem is that Seds isn't visible enough as an Admin, and it is very, very clear that he lets Lesurgo make the majority of the decisions, the same way he did with Sneaky. When Sneaky was Admin, this resulted in pretty much a non-moderation state, especially in regards to KCW, who essentially got away with anything he wanted. Now with Lesurgo, Seds is still just in the background, while Lesurgo runs the site into the ground. Honestly, I think that Lesurgo simply lacks the social maturity and development(mostly due to his age) to run a message board. I mean honestly, you're talking about someone that is so unrealistically stubborn about 'not swearing' that he won't even type out the name of the magic card 'Damnation'. While some people may think that this is minor and petty of me to bring up, it is not. It shows an absolutely inflexibility to act in a manner which is practical, even taking into account an instance where a user with the word 'damned' in his name got offended because Lesurgo would constantly edit it to 'darned' whenever responding to this person. It is just silly and unrealistic. Also, the way that he seems to want to do things just doesn't work, as is fairly obvious. The Vocal Minority thread is a clear example of this. Lesurgo was faced with a situation that he didn't want to bring real resolution to. Instead of getting involved with the community, trying to allay people's fears, etc, he found a reason to close the thread. Nevermind that said reason completely lacked any consistent application throughout the forums. If every thread that goes off-topic got locked, 1/2 of the threads on here would be locked. In other areas of this forum, when a thread goes off-topic, if it does not seem that it will revert, the moderator either A)accepts that the people in the thread have changed the purpose of the thread, which should clearly be acceptable, or B)takes the off-topic posts and moves them into a new thread. The functionality to do so is easy. But this isn't what happened. Lesurgo closed the thread with the classic 'oh you guys can start a new thread if you want', know full well, in my opinion, that this would never happen. It is events like this, and the severe mishandling of Craven, that make it very clear that Lesurgo is not capable of being the primary force of leadership around here.
The only way that promoting a 3rd person to Admin would accomplish anything is if A)Seds became more active(honestly, this is the only thing I would like to see Seds do differently..when he is around, he is considerate of what people have to say, and does his best to be a part of the community). The third person would also have to be a more dominant personality than Lesurgo, and would constantly have to essentially battle with him to avoid rash decisions being made. They would, for all practical puurposes, have to teach Lesurgo how to correctly do his job. Which is fine, if said person is willing to do so. The problem, in my mind, is that no one on the Staff now is capable of carrying out the Admin position correctly, and certainly no one is capable of also keeping a reign on Lesurgo.
Also, as far as Rock & Roll Romeo goes, while it would have been better for the Staff to take the moral high ground in that instance, he really was just a tool that was going to keep causing large amounts of problems(was already causing large amounts of problems). I understand why the Staff would think he lacked the desire to change, because I think the same thing. They should have followed procedure, but I think their actions are forgivable.
The Vocal Minority thread is a clear example of this. Lesurgo was faced with a situation that he didn't want to bring real resolution to. Instead of getting involved with the community, trying to allay people's fears, etc, he found a reason to close the thread. Nevermind that said reason completely lacked any consistent application throughout the forums. If every thread that goes off-topic got locked, 1/2 of the threads on here would be locked. In other areas of this forum, when a thread goes off-topic, if it does not seem that it will revert, the moderator either A)accepts that the people in the thread have changed the purpose of the thread, which should clearly be acceptable, or B)takes the off-topic posts and moves them into a new thread. The functionality to do so is easy. But this isn't what happened. Lesurgo closed the thread with the classic 'oh you guys can start a new thread if you want', know full well, in my opinion, that this would never happen. It is events like this, and the severe mishandling of Craven, that make it very clear that Lesurgo is not capable of being the primary force of leadership around here.
I would just like to add to this. In normal discussions, the topic flows into different areas that need to be discussed. The VM topic didn't get unnecessarily off-topic, it flowed into its new topic and then was cut because (this is now speculation and solely why I think it happened) it criticized the staff and gave means to fix its problems.
A quick Ninja edit (and a slight off-topic trek): @seds and Lesurgo: Are you two still discussing reforms to the infraction system/forum rules or has that fallen to the wayside?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mafia Stats (10-22 Overall) Random Mafia 2 Town MVP '08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
This is an attitude that is inappropriate. From what i saw, the way R&RR went about his argument with the mods was not inappropriate. Yes, he was rough and angry, but he was fine.
He flamed every member, not just staff or people talking about staff, who said they thought his sig was NWS and should have been removed. And in the thread following. Since I'm always asking for examples, I'll post some for you!
Quote from Rock n" Roll Romeo in Message to the mods »
This is not merely something that simply bothers me big guy. This is all to just show the misconduct of the mods. Nan to be exact. He plainly lied to me like I wouldn't catch on to simply nit-pick me and ****. Don't act like he did no wrong, and I'm just *****ing to *****. You couldn't ask for more obvious evidence, but yet you claim he's innocent. **** you!
Quote from Rock n" Roll Romeo in Message to the mods »
Look Avatar, goddamit! I did message several mods about this, but why do I gotta hide it? Why not let the whole world know this kid's ****ing with me. I didn't use any bold red mother****ing text ok. Therefore, there's no reason for a ****ing warning, infraction or what the **** ever. Simple as that. I even quoted him saying he EDITED the post just to turn around and say I did. Which shows a lie! Are you ****ing blind? lol
And before I go on, putting "lol" or ":p" at the end of your post does not magically not make it a troll or flame.
Quote from Rock n" Roll Romeo in Message to the mods »
A large picture of a hand gesturing with its middle finger
Quote from Rock n" Roll Romeo in MTGSally Almighty!! »
Welcome to another episode of 'MTGSally Almighty' right here on WKBW!
WKBW? Wimpy Kiddy Baby Whiners?
Even after my Signature Banner was considered PG-13, and safe for this "run-down forum of a magic site", as stated by a fellow forum um... viewer. Weeks later I get this deliteful message from the one and only... and apparently bored out of his mind with nothing better to do Lesurgo!!
Quote from Rock n" Roll Romeo in MTGSally Almighty!! »
*Yawn*
Does anyone have anything interesting to say? You go from sounding like lawyers to arguing like little school girls. (lol!)
A. this doesnt explain not warning him about his improper use of the position and advice for changing his use of it and B. how you could think that a demotion for a emotional guy like Craven wouldnt end up in his resignation is beyond me.
A should be a give-in; staff members are put in their position because they naturally exhibit the characteristics required of a staff member for whatever it is they're moderating. B should also be obvious; if it's such an emotional case to lose a level of modship, is that the kind of person you want to be in charge of powder keg issues such as the ones posted in this forum (almost freshly every day it seems)?
I'm not saying that 'being uncomfortable swearing' is a lack of maturity. I'm saying that such a zealous effort to avoid doing so(including refusal to use words such as hell and damned, which are used liberally even in the bible) shows a lack of *social* maturity. You cannot exist in society by stubbornly clinging to unrealitistic concepts. You have to be able to go with the flow to a large extent. Certainly, you cannot lead any kind of community in these circumstances.
I don't imagine we'll experience any sort of catastrophic failure if Lesurgo and 'Seds remain at the helm. Most people are relatively happy or apathetic with things as they are. The status quo is acceptable, for most of us.
But if I could change the way things are right now for the better, I would wish for a admin team that put law and order second in importance to a service mentality, whose leadership skills outstripped their talents as enforcers. We have some room for improvement in that area.
A new admin could be a small step in the right direction, if the right person is selected.
Beyond that, I hope that 'Seds and Lesurgo consider these issues on their merits, and decline to rest on their laurels and view this issue as an "us vs. them" situation.
This is not about how many people are opposed and how many are supporting them. It's not about people trying to stir up trouble.
This is about how the site can run more smoothly, and what we can do to ensure 'salvation continues to grow and to prosper. This isn't a battle: it's feedback.
With a bit of luck, the three of them will be able to keep drama to a minimum.
"Keeping the drama to a minimum" should not be our goal. Drama isn't the problem, drama is a warning that something is wrong. The best way to deal with it is not to ignore the reasons why it's occurring, but to deal with the root causes head-on, and adapt.
I think that replacing Seds or Lesurgo, or both, wouldn't cripple the site at least. However, I don't think either is killing the site either (so far), so I think both ought to stay.
However, I believe that another admin is necessary at this point. Cyan is correct in his statement that Seds really is more of a glamorized global in how much power he uses. The problem isn't just that, however. The mod squad, in my honest (and perhaps biased) opinion as a whole has functioned rather poorly since sneakyhomunculus left the team.
Not to offend any of the current globals, however, but I also do not think that any of them ought to be administrators. I respect you guys, but I do not think any of you really have the skills and charisma necessary for the position. Looking over the list of mods, actually, I can't think of anyone who wants and really ought to be admin. Therefore, I actually think someone outside the mod squad ought to be put in.
On the other hand, I can't think of anyone off the top of my head who wants the position and who has the capability to do the job.* At this point, I'm interested in seeing what Lesurgo thinks about the third mod and any possible candidates, but if it's a simple promotion for a global at this point, I will be disappointed.
*This is in no way asking for people to liberally apply for said position.
Quote from Azrael »
"Keeping the drama to a minimum" should not be our goal. Drama isn't the problem, drama is a warning that something is wrong. The best way to deal with it is not to ignore the reasons why it's occurring, but to deal with the root causes head-on, and adapt.
Bravo. This is possibly one of the most intelligent things I've seen someone say in a while now.
I am impressed with the posts on this thread, and I would like to add that I made my first post on the thread hastily. (on my lunch break)
As I have said, I have been gone for the past week, and Lesurgo and I did agree to move forward with the removal of Craven as a Global Moderator in that time. We did not draft up a PM to send him though, and I am sorry if the one that did get sent to him was not adequate. He can contact me or Lesurgo for the reasons as to his removal if he wants clarification.
A third admin was something discussed between Lesurgo, Feyd, and I some months ago, and Feyd basically came up with the same basic idea as Cyan did here. (Cyan's negative comments aside) The best candidate would be one that can play off of both me and Lesurgo well, and come to a position directly opposite to his usually. Compromise is in my nature, while I tend to be more lenient/liberal in how I moderate.
I realize some see me as a transparent figure, and that is something I have been working on lately.
Of course it helps none when huge amounts of issues show up on a week where I have no internet access, so Lesurgo is left solely at the helm.
Obviously I have been keeping a close watch on SYM threads recently, and I have been posting often here. I have been making sure threads do not get closed, taking responsibility for overseeing the active threads in here and whatnot.
I have no problems working with him, lets try to keep insults out of this thread please.
As good as this thread's replies have been, the consensus is 'Yes, a third admin would be ok, but we don't know who should be a third admin in the slightest'.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
News and spoiler contributor for GatheringMagic.com
I think that replacing Seds or Lesurgo, or both, wouldn't cripple the site at least. However, I don't think either is killing the site either (so far), so I think both ought to stay.
However, I believe that another admin is necessary at this point. Cyan is correct in his statement that Seds really is more of a glamorized global in how much power he uses. The problem isn't just that, however. The mod squad, in my honest (and perhaps biased) opinion as a whole has functioned rather poorly since sneakyhomunculus left the team.
Not to offend any of the current globals, however, but I also do not think that any of them ought to be administrators. I respect you guys, but I do not think any of you really have the skills and charisma necessary for the position. Looking over the list of mods, actually, I can't think of anyone who wants and really ought to be admin. Therefore, I actually think someone outside the mod squad ought to be put in.
On the other hand, I can't think of anyone off the top of my head who wants the position and who has the capability to do the job.* At this point, I'm interested in seeing what Lesurgo thinks about the third mod and any possible candidates, but if it's a simple promotion for a global at this point, I will be disappointed.
*This is in no way asking for people to liberally apply for said position.
Bravo. This is possibly one of the most intelligent things I've seen someone say in a while now.
I agree with that entire post for the most part.
I feel there is modships that need to be shuffled around and changed. I also feel that, in reality, there arent ANY mods currently on the Squad who have the charisma needed to deal with the situation.
Also, if i may note, During the Sneaky days, we may have had issues, but sneaky was personable and charismatic enough to deal with the situation. He is generally considered one of the better admins.
Goblinboy is also generally concidered one of the better admins, and its because he had an open communication, and was someone that the average user could add on msn and just talk away with (Lord knows i did this). He was mostly friendly, helpful, and not an idiot. Again, one of the better admins.
Who do we have on administration, Nay the entire mod squad, who has the same level of open-ness and charisma, not to mention the time, necessary to truly fill the shoes of an administrator? There aren't too many mods on the squad who i would consider adding on msn and just sitting down to have a conversation with. Many of them arent online enough, or have simply drifted away from people since their administration. Others i have known since before their mod days and have talked to since. It's given me a useful perspective, but not rendered me into an administrative lapdog.
I understand the position the vast majority of the administrative issues come from, and the places i disagree, i bring up.
A third Admin is needed, but since you don't have a personable type for the role, i suggest someone who does his job well.
I would also suggest that a new role is created, a PR type person, someone whose sole job is to listen to the community, and bring their problems to the administration. So that the useless bickering and whining and day to day things that can be ignored (As always have been) can be so, but the important things that have relevance can be brought forward and made known, rather then just dismissed as "drama whores seeking attention" or "rabblerousing".
Such is my opinion.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
I would also suggest that a new role is created, a PR type person, someone whose sole job is to listen to the community, and bring their problems to the administration. So that the useless bickering and whining and day to day things that can be ignored (As always have been) can be so, but the important things that have relevance can be brought forward and made known, rather then just dismissed as "drama whores seeking attention" or "rabblerousing".
While this does imply that the staff is wholly separate from the community, which is indeed not the case, this is a good idea that we have already brought up in staff discussions.
Intelligently and calmly conveying issues to the staff is the best way to actually get things done, and finding a member that could do so would be purely beneficial to progress on the site.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
News and spoiler contributor for GatheringMagic.com
I don't imagine we'll experience any sort of catastrophic failure if Lesurgo and 'Seds remain at the helm. Most people are relatively happy or apathetic with things as they are. The status quo is acceptable, for most of us.
I seem to recall that the German General Staff was 'relatively happy or apathetic' with the positions of Chancellor and President being occupied by one Adolf Hitler and patiently endured his authority despite his continual, if subtle, alterations and undermining of their rights, voice, influence, and power before 1939, and didn't expect any sort of 'catastrophic failure' either. Well, we know how that turned out.
My point being, that the situation needs to be resolved before it degrades further, if indeed that is the general belief.
Unfortunately, I doubt that Goblinboy would want the position back, which is unfortunate.
@Greg(Seds): I don't think that it's so much that people on here 'don't know' whom you should promote amongst the current Staff. I think that it is that we don't think that there IS anyone amongst the current staff that is capable enough of doing the job. I realize that this puts you into a difficult position, but, part of being Admin is facing those positions and solving them in the best manner possible. Also, I think that most of us recognize(I do at least, though I have more interaction with you than most) that you've been trying harder, as of late, to be involved..and we appreciate that. Because when you're not involved, as can be seen, situations tend to degrade rather quickly.
@SB: A qualified Admin would naturally fill the role of 'PR person'. Honestly, like in so many things, people aren't looking for problems to magically be answered in exactly how they want, they're just looking for acknowledgment, and someone that they can have confidence in.
I seem to recall that the German General Staff was 'relatively happy or apathetic' with the positions of Chancellor and President being occupied by one Adolf Hitler and patiently endured his authority despite his continual, if subtle, alterations and undermining of their rights, voice, influence, and power before 1939, and didn't expect any sort of 'catastrophic failure' either. Well, we know how that turned out.
When Lesurgo starts systematically purging the membership rolls of our jewish members, I'll be more inclined to see merit in the comparison.
But sidestepping the hyperbole of the statement, I think the heart of your point was that appeals to populism are never a sufficient validation of government action. Populism abandons the minority to its fate, and it is the minority that has the most dire need of protection.
The intent behind that statement was not to validate or invalidate the existing state of affairs, but to temper the polemic with the simple recognition that nothing that has happened so far has posed a direct threat to the existence of the site.
Should it be changed? Quite possibly. But should we immediately resort to the most drastic means available to effect that change? Certainly not. Hair-trigger judgments and a preference for the quickest, easiest solution are arguably the reason we are standing here in the first place. I see little reason to compound those errors with more in the same vein.
Before i begin my shpiel, let me introduce myself.
I've been a member more or less since the R_E joined the site, and never was on MTGNews.
I have 2 warnings and have been given 2 infractions...both infractions in the entertainment forum; one for forgetting to spoilerize my post, and another for double posting. Nothing serious.
Furthermore, i have no issue with seds personally. I do not dislike him. Lesurgo i have disliked for over a year. But i hope you'll realize that the following plea is unbiased in any way, and does not stem from this dislike.
------------------------------------------------
It is time for us to have new admins. There's been 2 changes of the guard here at mtgs since its conception...the first being when xenphire left; the 2nd being after belgareth was de-admined. I wasnt particularly active enough to care about the xenph one at the time, but the belg one was completely justified.
And just like that time, a change in admins is needed here.
Neither of the two current admins has been anywhere near the level of these two predecessors. But they have proven in recent events to be immature and incapable of handling the job properly as an admin. (They have proven to be capable of modding forums though).
I agreed with banning KCW...like TFE he shouldve been banned a long time coming before the banning. I could see the reasoning in a butte ban, though i wasnt particularly for it.
I thought that PJ mightve deserved banning for actions he had taken.
So why my complaint? Simple, the way these events were handled were horrible, and their repercussions have caused changes in this site. PJ deserved banning earlier, when he was deliberately (he told me this on irc) provoking and stirring the pot in the butte's banned thread/s. And yet when PJ posts an issue with a mod's infractions in a thread, seds a few posts later just bans him, despite this infraction being completely pointless. The result? Anger at the admins for seemingly-trying to shut down opposition to mod rule.
The situation was easily avoided, and yet due to mod error in handling this, it was not. Then came the handling of the vocal minority threads and whatnot, where the mods shutdown a conversation that hardly seemed inappropriate.
Then a few mods resigned, compounding issues. The forum drama only increased.
Now we have the new mod changes, particularly with craven. Now i never really interacted with him, and 2 of my friends hated him with a passion and are overjoyed (their names will be undisclosed). But the reasoning given in the PM to craven is awful. If you thought he was modding irresponsibly, is he not entitled to a warning about it? Surely at least a friendly pm! Instead, BAM! you took an action that was 99% of the time going to lead toward his resignation.
Now i see R&RR was banned....which seems dumb even more. Why not simply suspend him? His posts were angry and abrasive, but to ban someone for "anger management" is hardly proper mod policy.
It's time for a change. I have no ulterior motive here, and would be happy if les and seds remain mods of the forums they currently are. But the drama in sym can be stopped simply and easily, and then mtgs can go on, by a simple resignation of admin powers.
There certainly are capable candidates among the mod squad for new admins. I think its time to give them that chance.
-loran
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Immature?
I have been on vacation for the past week.
Care to explain?
Alright.
Wrong.
Unfortunately, during the entire BB/KCW thread, Lesurgo and I decided to hold off on moderating several members on the thread, to allow for a 'more open' discussion of the issue. I do agree that PJ was a problem then, and he was suspended because of it.
He had 4 active infractions, one that was borderline, and one (the second thread) that he disagreed with, but in the context of the thread, was appropriate. The administration was giving him the benefit of the doubt. I had no problem with him opposing moderations, not at all. When someone is being given the benefit of the doubt, and then they go and curse the staff and decide to have a very immature attitude in relation to a moderation...they no longer deserve to have the benefit of the doubt.
If we had threads like that one, with attitudes like those posted, they would be infracted. Why? Because it is anything but constructive and there is really no good way to say that it could be. We did NOT infract that thread. He had enough infractions added to a VERY recent suspension, so he was banned. He actually IM'd me afterwards and was very polite, and it speaks strongly for how inappropriate his thread was. He is highly capable of posting intelligently, but he chose not to.
I wasn't here for that thread.
I didn't know what the exact PM was (again, on vacation), but this was a decision based on how he was handling his position as a global moderator, and nothing personal to his moderating style or opinions. I am upset that he resigned.
Do you actually honestly think he was going to wise up?
I wasn't here for that either, so I guess I don't know the entire situation.
That will NOT stop the drama, sorry to say.
It is likely time for a third admin to be appointed, as Lesugro and I have discussed earlier.
I will discuss that with Lesurgo soon.
Twitter
I'll concede this much. But it would alleviate user fears that the admins are being a little authoritarian.
This is an attitude that is inappropriate. From what i saw, the way R&RR went about his argument with the mods was not inappropriate. Yes, he was rough and angry, but he was fine. If you'd rather him post in help desks, as expected, then why not delete the thread (or some other mod), post his op in the proper help desk, and then pm him to tell him of what happened?
Then you were being shortsighted in every way. A. this doesnt explain not warning him about his improper use of the position and advice for changing his use of it and B. how you could think that a demotion for a emotional guy like Craven wouldnt end up in his resignation is beyond me.
But the way you went about his banning was crude rough, and caused all the drama around it in the 1st place. Seriously, look at the QFT post again. It's got an emotionally angry tone to it, and when you read it in context seems to be in direct response to PJ's opposition. OF COURSE people were going to get upset.
Like i said, i know pj/shea, and i didnt mind the banning. He is a smart guy. But the way you went about it was ...just godawful. It seemed immature, like you were letting anger over the poster go to your head.
The treatment of craven, and the shutting down of the vocal minority post seemed to be immature as well, as if the admin responsible (i dont know what part each of you played) was angry and wanted to stop the discussion now in the case of the vm thread, and to eliminate an annoying mod to them in craven in the other.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I believe that Binary has been given that job.
No, Binary was promoted to Global Moderator. We currently only have two admins (urzassedatives and Lesurgo).
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
As for new leadership I won't comment on it much, but I'm glad to hear that a third admin is being thought of. It has always seemed much easier to decide things when you are 3 then when you are two. Especially if the two disagree on matters.
Atog: Binary was made global moderator, not admin.
[thread=41221][my extendo sig][/thread] [thread=56664][moderator helpdesk][/thread] [Pen and Paper Inn]
Just add me on msn if you have any questions or just want to talk
Don't get me started on the Rock n Roll Romeo banning, he blew a simple warning way out of proportion, his thread was a joke and he deserved exactly what he got. Flipping out over the mods simply requesting him to change his banner didn't help his case much either.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
Sorry I was wrong
And i dont think adding a 3rd admin solves anything really.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
The only way that promoting a 3rd person to Admin would accomplish anything is if A)Seds became more active(honestly, this is the only thing I would like to see Seds do differently..when he is around, he is considerate of what people have to say, and does his best to be a part of the community). The third person would also have to be a more dominant personality than Lesurgo, and would constantly have to essentially battle with him to avoid rash decisions being made. They would, for all practical puurposes, have to teach Lesurgo how to correctly do his job. Which is fine, if said person is willing to do so. The problem, in my mind, is that no one on the Staff now is capable of carrying out the Admin position correctly, and certainly no one is capable of also keeping a reign on Lesurgo.
Also, as far as Rock & Roll Romeo goes, while it would have been better for the Staff to take the moral high ground in that instance, he really was just a tool that was going to keep causing large amounts of problems(was already causing large amounts of problems). I understand why the Staff would think he lacked the desire to change, because I think the same thing. They should have followed procedure, but I think their actions are forgivable.
I would just like to add to this. In normal discussions, the topic flows into different areas that need to be discussed. The VM topic didn't get unnecessarily off-topic, it flowed into its new topic and then was cut because (this is now speculation and solely why I think it happened) it criticized the staff and gave means to fix its problems.
A quick Ninja edit (and a slight off-topic trek): @seds and Lesurgo: Are you two still discussing reforms to the infraction system/forum rules or has that fallen to the wayside?
Random Mafia 2 Town MVP
'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
He flamed every member, not just staff or people talking about staff, who said they thought his sig was NWS and should have been removed. And in the thread following. Since I'm always asking for examples, I'll post some for you!
And before I go on, putting "lol" or ":p" at the end of your post does not magically not make it a troll or flame.
Also the post edited by Nan.
A should be a give-in; staff members are put in their position because they naturally exhibit the characteristics required of a staff member for whatever it is they're moderating. B should also be obvious; if it's such an emotional case to lose a level of modship, is that the kind of person you want to be in charge of powder keg issues such as the ones posted in this forum (almost freshly every day it seems)?
Buy from me on TCGPlayer::Twitter::Flickr
But if I could change the way things are right now for the better, I would wish for a admin team that put law and order second in importance to a service mentality, whose leadership skills outstripped their talents as enforcers. We have some room for improvement in that area.
A new admin could be a small step in the right direction, if the right person is selected.
Beyond that, I hope that 'Seds and Lesurgo consider these issues on their merits, and decline to rest on their laurels and view this issue as an "us vs. them" situation.
This is not about how many people are opposed and how many are supporting them. It's not about people trying to stir up trouble.
This is about how the site can run more smoothly, and what we can do to ensure 'salvation continues to grow and to prosper. This isn't a battle: it's feedback.
"Keeping the drama to a minimum" should not be our goal. Drama isn't the problem, drama is a warning that something is wrong. The best way to deal with it is not to ignore the reasons why it's occurring, but to deal with the root causes head-on, and adapt.
However, I believe that another admin is necessary at this point. Cyan is correct in his statement that Seds really is more of a glamorized global in how much power he uses. The problem isn't just that, however. The mod squad, in my honest (and perhaps biased) opinion as a whole has functioned rather poorly since sneakyhomunculus left the team.
Not to offend any of the current globals, however, but I also do not think that any of them ought to be administrators. I respect you guys, but I do not think any of you really have the skills and charisma necessary for the position. Looking over the list of mods, actually, I can't think of anyone who wants and really ought to be admin. Therefore, I actually think someone outside the mod squad ought to be put in.
On the other hand, I can't think of anyone off the top of my head who wants the position and who has the capability to do the job.* At this point, I'm interested in seeing what Lesurgo thinks about the third mod and any possible candidates, but if it's a simple promotion for a global at this point, I will be disappointed.
*This is in no way asking for people to liberally apply for said position.
Bravo. This is possibly one of the most intelligent things I've seen someone say in a while now.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
As I have said, I have been gone for the past week, and Lesurgo and I did agree to move forward with the removal of Craven as a Global Moderator in that time. We did not draft up a PM to send him though, and I am sorry if the one that did get sent to him was not adequate. He can contact me or Lesurgo for the reasons as to his removal if he wants clarification.
A third admin was something discussed between Lesurgo, Feyd, and I some months ago, and Feyd basically came up with the same basic idea as Cyan did here. (Cyan's negative comments aside) The best candidate would be one that can play off of both me and Lesurgo well, and come to a position directly opposite to his usually. Compromise is in my nature, while I tend to be more lenient/liberal in how I moderate.
I realize some see me as a transparent figure, and that is something I have been working on lately.
Of course it helps none when huge amounts of issues show up on a week where I have no internet access, so Lesurgo is left solely at the helm.
Obviously I have been keeping a close watch on SYM threads recently, and I have been posting often here. I have been making sure threads do not get closed, taking responsibility for overseeing the active threads in here and whatnot.
I have no problems working with him, lets try to keep insults out of this thread please.
As good as this thread's replies have been, the consensus is 'Yes, a third admin would be ok, but we don't know who should be a third admin in the slightest'.
Twitter
I agree with that entire post for the most part.
I feel there is modships that need to be shuffled around and changed. I also feel that, in reality, there arent ANY mods currently on the Squad who have the charisma needed to deal with the situation.
Also, if i may note, During the Sneaky days, we may have had issues, but sneaky was personable and charismatic enough to deal with the situation. He is generally considered one of the better admins.
Goblinboy is also generally concidered one of the better admins, and its because he had an open communication, and was someone that the average user could add on msn and just talk away with (Lord knows i did this). He was mostly friendly, helpful, and not an idiot. Again, one of the better admins.
Who do we have on administration, Nay the entire mod squad, who has the same level of open-ness and charisma, not to mention the time, necessary to truly fill the shoes of an administrator? There aren't too many mods on the squad who i would consider adding on msn and just sitting down to have a conversation with. Many of them arent online enough, or have simply drifted away from people since their administration. Others i have known since before their mod days and have talked to since. It's given me a useful perspective, but not rendered me into an administrative lapdog.
I understand the position the vast majority of the administrative issues come from, and the places i disagree, i bring up.
A third Admin is needed, but since you don't have a personable type for the role, i suggest someone who does his job well.
I would also suggest that a new role is created, a PR type person, someone whose sole job is to listen to the community, and bring their problems to the administration. So that the useless bickering and whining and day to day things that can be ignored (As always have been) can be so, but the important things that have relevance can be brought forward and made known, rather then just dismissed as "drama whores seeking attention" or "rabblerousing".
Such is my opinion.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
While this does imply that the staff is wholly separate from the community, which is indeed not the case, this is a good idea that we have already brought up in staff discussions.
Intelligently and calmly conveying issues to the staff is the best way to actually get things done, and finding a member that could do so would be purely beneficial to progress on the site.
Twitter
I seem to recall that the German General Staff was 'relatively happy or apathetic' with the positions of Chancellor and President being occupied by one Adolf Hitler and patiently endured his authority despite his continual, if subtle, alterations and undermining of their rights, voice, influence, and power before 1939, and didn't expect any sort of 'catastrophic failure' either. Well, we know how that turned out.
My point being, that the situation needs to be resolved before it degrades further, if indeed that is the general belief.
@Greg(Seds): I don't think that it's so much that people on here 'don't know' whom you should promote amongst the current Staff. I think that it is that we don't think that there IS anyone amongst the current staff that is capable enough of doing the job. I realize that this puts you into a difficult position, but, part of being Admin is facing those positions and solving them in the best manner possible. Also, I think that most of us recognize(I do at least, though I have more interaction with you than most) that you've been trying harder, as of late, to be involved..and we appreciate that. Because when you're not involved, as can be seen, situations tend to degrade rather quickly.
@SB: A qualified Admin would naturally fill the role of 'PR person'. Honestly, like in so many things, people aren't looking for problems to magically be answered in exactly how they want, they're just looking for acknowledgment, and someone that they can have confidence in.
When Lesurgo starts systematically purging the membership rolls of our jewish members, I'll be more inclined to see merit in the comparison.
But sidestepping the hyperbole of the statement, I think the heart of your point was that appeals to populism are never a sufficient validation of government action. Populism abandons the minority to its fate, and it is the minority that has the most dire need of protection.
The intent behind that statement was not to validate or invalidate the existing state of affairs, but to temper the polemic with the simple recognition that nothing that has happened so far has posed a direct threat to the existence of the site.
Should it be changed? Quite possibly. But should we immediately resort to the most drastic means available to effect that change? Certainly not. Hair-trigger judgments and a preference for the quickest, easiest solution are arguably the reason we are standing here in the first place. I see little reason to compound those errors with more in the same vein.