You're saying that to someone whose screen-name means "nipple" in French. I doubt it will have much impact.
Actually, it means a small, fortified hill.
And it's amusing that you assume that I must have chosen this name because I thought it meant "nipple." You might choose names out of such motives, but don't presume that I do.
This troll would probably have been more successful had you not ignored my very open agreement with what he said about it being inappropriate, and expressed my own views on appropriateness, which are really kind of stringent.
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All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
I think it's ironic that you lecture me so, but you become outraged when it seems to you like someone is talking down to you.
I judged those remarks as imprudent and removed them nearly immediately after posting them. My sincerest apologies; it has been a very long day.
Assuredly, and your was claim that the subjective impressions you have, at least partially shared by Cyan, are sufficient to call MikeyG's ability as a potential admin into question. But that claim isn't sufficient. That's the entire point.
Again, Mamelon, my claim has not been that MikeyG is biased. I said I did not think he would be a very good Administrator when his name was floated; my reasons were my own, and not Cyan's. If this needs reinforcing I'll say it again, but I hardly think it would benefit anyone.
Whether my aversion to MikeyG as an Administrator has a basis is a separate matter, and one that you should really have little concern about. I did not intend to convince you or anyone else that MikeyG was a bad choice, simply that I thought he was a bad choice and that my opposition was present.
Despite my words and actions in previous months and years, not everything is meant to be debated, Mamelon. Some things are simply to be stated and acknowledged.
The complaint with MikeyG by Cyan was that he was clearly biased. You have done little more than to provide occasional echoes reinforcing his sentiment.
That my sentiments match those of Cyan is incidental. Don't put words in my mouth, Mamelon.
If you intend some different point, then please actually make one instead of beating around the bush and then crying misinterpretation when your ideas aren't received as you had wished.
I do hope that I've already made it, on several occasions, to the apparent satisfaction of everyone except you.
And I don't think this whole business is a problem of perception. Others have pointed out, and I really don't care to go back into it in detail, that a "good face" is by far not all that goes into being a good admin.
Certainly not. But it should be clear to everyone involved here that unless the choice is respected by all parties, it will not bring an end to the controversy here. The person need not be liked, by any means, but there must be the quality of respect that some candidates clearly lack.
And lastly, my only effort was to argue against the idea that MikeyG was significantly biased. I don't really know if he would be the best choice for admin, or if most people peceive him well. I only claim that he wouldn't be a bad choice, and would even be a good one, though maybe not "the best."
That's perfectly acceptable, Mamelon. I certainly had no intention of quarrelling against you.
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Sing lustily and with good courage.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
I judged those remarks as imprudent and removed them nearly immediately after posting them. My sincerest apologies; it has been a very long day.
I must have responded to them before you removed them.
Don't worry about it.
Again, Mamelon, my claim has not been that MikeyG is biased.
Oh, I know. It appeared you were before, since Cyan claimed that and you seemed to agree, but if you aren't saying that, then my arguments to that effect wouldn't end up being relevent to your position, of course.
Whether my aversion to MikeyG as an Administrator has a basis is a separate matter, and one that you should really have little concern about. I did not intend to convince you or anyone else that MikeyG was a bad choice, simply that I thought he was a bad choice and that my opposition was present.
Despite my words and actions in previous months and years, not everything is meant to be debated, Mamelon. Some things are simply to be stated and acknowledged.
I understand. You are perfectly entitled to your perspective about this. Assuredly, I also gave my own, so there's no reason you can't do the same.
I'm sorry if I confused your comments to be in total agreement with Cyan, who seemed to be arguing pretty vigorously about some things.
That my sentiments match those of Cyan is incidental. Don't put words in my mouth, Mamelon.
As I said above, this was how it seemed. You were pretty brief at some points, so it appeared more likely that you agreed with him based on the tenor of your posts - even though that wasn't actually the case. Thanks for clearing that up.
Certainly not. But it should be clear to everyone involved here that unless the choice is respected by all parties, it will not bring an end to the controversy here. The person need not be liked, by any means, but there must be the quality of respect that some candidates clearly lack.
Well, I'm inclined to agree, except that it seems like there will probably be at least a few people who will be discontent by any choice. That's to be expected, and won't always yield a significant controversy (at least, not like the current controversy). Certainly, though, it'd be ideal to have a choice that almost all people would at least be okay with it. As you say, a quality of respect. And to bring the conflicts down to the "normal" levels.
That's perfectly acceptable, Mamelon. I certainly had no intention of quarrelling against you.
Of course. I think I can understand where you're coming from, anyway.
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All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
OK, now that we've gotten that out of the way... unless Cyan can provide some reasonable proof to support his accusations, can we consider the matter dropped and return to some constructive discussion?
Here's a question to get the ball rolling...
Most people have expressed their belief that no one in the current staff is ideal for the position and that's valid, but it doesn't help out Seds and Lesurgo much in their decision-making. So, if there is one person on the staff you'd nominate for the position, who is it and why?
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
I will provide what 'reasonable proof' that I can. But trying to prove bias is extraordinarily difficult, because you're trying to prove intent. I'm not sure why it's necessary to prove this, though..perhaps someone could explain that to me? Somehow, I doubt that any consideration of Mikey for Admin is going to factor in my opinion(or any non-staff opinion) regarding his objectivity.
Also, why do people keep saying that we don't think that there is anyone on the staff that can fill the position? I believe the Hydro, Votan, of Fadeblue could do it(though they would need to be more active around the site in general, not just in their preferred forum). I also believe that, if Goblinboy could somehow be talked into returning, he would do a great job(again). The same applies to Senori and possibly Craven(he would need to be less heavy-handed..but honestly, much of the Staff needs to be less heavy-handed).
I think MikeyG's an excellent poster, albeit one I don't see around the forum as much as I would wish. I think he'd make a wonderful global to fill Craven's position.
I would love to see Goblinboy or Senori as admin, although persuading them would be needed. If Votan posted more outside Clans and the like, he'd also make a very good candidate, but unfortunately, I've learned firsthand that mods who frequent only a few forums aren't the best candidates for a position that requires focus on the entire forum.
I will provide what 'reasonable proof' that I can. But trying to prove bias is extraordinarily difficult, because you're trying to prove intent. I'm not sure why it's necessary to prove this, though..perhaps someone could explain that to me?
Sure. If you're going to state a neutral opinion, for example "I don't think MikeyG would make a good admin" that's fine. Even something mild like "MikeyG comes across to me as being more lenient towards some people than others" is a reasonable statement.
But what you did was make a very specific claim about his behavior and you make negative comments regarding his judgment and fitness to hold a moderator position based on them. In my opinion, those are serious accusations and it is rather irresponsible to make them without some reasonable proof to back it up. In other words, if you're going to say bad things about someone, have something to back it up. Otherwise, keep it to yourself.
Further, it is one thing to hold a personal opinion, such as MikeyG is biased in favor of certain members or groups. It is quite another thing to publicly argue that your personal opinion is accurate and that other people are wrong if they do not hold the same opinion. The former is valid regardless of any proof or accuracy, the latter is not.
Also, why do people keep saying that we don't think that there is anyone on the staff that can fill the position?
Perhaps it is a misperception on my part. I could go back and find the posts that lead me to believe that way, but it's not really important. The point was to get the conversation focused on productive things.
Also, saying who we think is a suitable candidate will get us nowhere. Seds and Les already said that they dont think public opinion will get an admin elected, since bias may be a subject to our choice.
I wouldn't go that far. Just because the admins are going to make the decision based on what they think is best doesn't mean that your opinion won't be taken into consideration.
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The Golden Rule of forums: If you're going to be rude, be right. If you might be wrong, be polite.
Mamelon: It looks like we don't much disagree anymore.
Looking at the current Staff, I would be happy to see fadeblue, Feyd, or votan become Admins, though I don't think any of them would really want it or have time for it. I'd also be happy to see Goblinboy as an Admin, but I think he's pretty happy not being one.
As to those suggesting me, I can only say that were I offered it I would have to consider it, but I don't foresee such an offer happening.
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Sing lustily and with good courage.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
I would love to see fadeblue in a position to do more for the site. Admittedly, the mafia forum has less traffic and fewer issues to deal with than many other subforums, but fade has always seemed to me to possess all the qualities necessary in a good moderator. He's cordial, impartial, and patient. He manages to participate actively in the forum itself (running and playing in games) while maintaining as much impartiality as is possible. He gives warnings when they're warranted, but doesn't feel the need to undertake heavy-handed enforcement to remind people of his position.
I don't know whether or not he has visionary ideas for improving the site as a whole, but he's certainly got the people skills to handle contentious situations. It seems there's been an awful lot of those, lately.
Of course, whether he wants the job is entirely another matter. It would certainly be a step up in workload and time commitment.
Actually, it means a small, fortified hill.
And it's amusing that you assume that I must have chosen this name because I thought it meant "nipple." You might choose names out of such motives, but don't presume that I do.
This troll would probably have been more successful had you not ignored my very open agreement with what he said about it being inappropriate, and expressed my own views on appropriateness, which are really kind of stringent.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
I judged those remarks as imprudent and removed them nearly immediately after posting them. My sincerest apologies; it has been a very long day.
Again, Mamelon, my claim has not been that MikeyG is biased. I said I did not think he would be a very good Administrator when his name was floated; my reasons were my own, and not Cyan's. If this needs reinforcing I'll say it again, but I hardly think it would benefit anyone.
Whether my aversion to MikeyG as an Administrator has a basis is a separate matter, and one that you should really have little concern about. I did not intend to convince you or anyone else that MikeyG was a bad choice, simply that I thought he was a bad choice and that my opposition was present.
Despite my words and actions in previous months and years, not everything is meant to be debated, Mamelon. Some things are simply to be stated and acknowledged.
That my sentiments match those of Cyan is incidental. Don't put words in my mouth, Mamelon.
I do hope that I've already made it, on several occasions, to the apparent satisfaction of everyone except you.
Certainly not. But it should be clear to everyone involved here that unless the choice is respected by all parties, it will not bring an end to the controversy here. The person need not be liked, by any means, but there must be the quality of respect that some candidates clearly lack.
That's perfectly acceptable, Mamelon. I certainly had no intention of quarrelling against you.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
Don't worry about it.
Oh, I know. It appeared you were before, since Cyan claimed that and you seemed to agree, but if you aren't saying that, then my arguments to that effect wouldn't end up being relevent to your position, of course.
I understand. You are perfectly entitled to your perspective about this. Assuredly, I also gave my own, so there's no reason you can't do the same.
I'm sorry if I confused your comments to be in total agreement with Cyan, who seemed to be arguing pretty vigorously about some things.
As I said above, this was how it seemed. You were pretty brief at some points, so it appeared more likely that you agreed with him based on the tenor of your posts - even though that wasn't actually the case. Thanks for clearing that up.
Well, I'm inclined to agree, except that it seems like there will probably be at least a few people who will be discontent by any choice. That's to be expected, and won't always yield a significant controversy (at least, not like the current controversy). Certainly, though, it'd be ideal to have a choice that almost all people would at least be okay with it. As you say, a quality of respect. And to bring the conflicts down to the "normal" levels.
Of course. I think I can understand where you're coming from, anyway.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel.
All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
Gaymers | Magic Coffeehouse | Little Jar of Mamelon | Natural 20
Here's a question to get the ball rolling...
Most people have expressed their belief that no one in the current staff is ideal for the position and that's valid, but it doesn't help out Seds and Lesurgo much in their decision-making. So, if there is one person on the staff you'd nominate for the position, who is it and why?
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Also, why do people keep saying that we don't think that there is anyone on the staff that can fill the position? I believe the Hydro, Votan, of Fadeblue could do it(though they would need to be more active around the site in general, not just in their preferred forum). I also believe that, if Goblinboy could somehow be talked into returning, he would do a great job(again). The same applies to Senori and possibly Craven(he would need to be less heavy-handed..but honestly, much of the Staff needs to be less heavy-handed).
I would love to see Goblinboy or Senori as admin, although persuading them would be needed. If Votan posted more outside Clans and the like, he'd also make a very good candidate, but unfortunately, I've learned firsthand that mods who frequent only a few forums aren't the best candidates for a position that requires focus on the entire forum.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
Sure. If you're going to state a neutral opinion, for example "I don't think MikeyG would make a good admin" that's fine. Even something mild like "MikeyG comes across to me as being more lenient towards some people than others" is a reasonable statement.
But what you did was make a very specific claim about his behavior and you make negative comments regarding his judgment and fitness to hold a moderator position based on them. In my opinion, those are serious accusations and it is rather irresponsible to make them without some reasonable proof to back it up. In other words, if you're going to say bad things about someone, have something to back it up. Otherwise, keep it to yourself.
Further, it is one thing to hold a personal opinion, such as MikeyG is biased in favor of certain members or groups. It is quite another thing to publicly argue that your personal opinion is accurate and that other people are wrong if they do not hold the same opinion. The former is valid regardless of any proof or accuracy, the latter is not.
Perhaps it is a misperception on my part. I could go back and find the posts that lead me to believe that way, but it's not really important. The point was to get the conversation focused on productive things.
I wouldn't go that far. Just because the admins are going to make the decision based on what they think is best doesn't mean that your opinion won't be taken into consideration.
Current New Favorite Person™: Mallory Archer
She knows why.
Looking at the current Staff, I would be happy to see fadeblue, Feyd, or votan become Admins, though I don't think any of them would really want it or have time for it. I'd also be happy to see Goblinboy as an Admin, but I think he's pretty happy not being one.
As to those suggesting me, I can only say that were I offered it I would have to consider it, but I don't foresee such an offer happening.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
I don't know whether or not he has visionary ideas for improving the site as a whole, but he's certainly got the people skills to handle contentious situations. It seems there's been an awful lot of those, lately.
Of course, whether he wants the job is entirely another matter. It would certainly be a step up in workload and time commitment.
AoK has been chosen as the new admin.
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