Seriously though, Azrael is right. Nothing dire has happened yet. The idea is to solve problems *before* some catastrophe occurs, if you feel like the events are leading in that direction, which is how I feel.
I would also suggest that a new role is created, a PR type person, someone whose sole job is to listen to the community, and bring their problems to the administration. So that the useless bickering and whining and day to day things that can be ignored (As always have been) can be so, but the important things that have relevance can be brought forward and made known, rather then just dismissed as "drama whores seeking attention" or "rabblerousing".
Such is my opinion.
I agree a PR type position would help out immensely. Also a candidate i think for the PR position would be someone like Azrael who never seems to lose his/her cool in these discussions and always has something intriguing to add to the conversation in a very diplomatic way.
While this does imply that the staff is wholly separate from the community, which is indeed not the case, this is a good idea that we have already brought up in staff discussions.
Intelligently and calmly conveying issues to the staff is the best way to actually get things done, and finding a member that could do so would be purely beneficial to progress on the site.
The only relative flaw with this, in my mind, is that the staff should never, ever be so distanced from the community that the community needs a representative to explain their wishes to the staff.
I seem to recall that the German General Staff was 'relatively happy or apathetic' with the positions of Chancellor and President being occupied by one Adolf Hitler and patiently endured his authority despite his continual, if subtle, alterations and undermining of their rights, voice, influence, and power before 1939, and didn't expect any sort of 'catastrophic failure' either. Well, we know how that turned out.
My point being, that the situation needs to be resolved before it degrades further, if indeed that is the general belief.
Not to bandwagon Cyan, but comparing any single person or action on the Internet to Adolf Hitler and the Nazi regime is so immediately short-sighted that it's laughable.
Personally, I support the idea of a third administrator at this point. And I disagree with the notion that no one currently on the staff could handle it. I am of the opinion that if he was interested in it and if he dedicated himself to it, {MikeyG} could be a fabulous administrator. I do understand that he might be the best administrator for the current environment, though. He is rather private as far as being availible on IM and such. At the same time, of those currently on the staff, I would say he is most qualified.
Bringing in someone not already on the staff is unheard of and scares me to an extend. I do believe that we need to see someone as a moderator first before we can judge how they will administrate. There are a few non-staff members that I would trust with this, though.
The idea of a 'PR person' sort of rubs me the wrong way. Of three administrators one should be able to do this.
I agree w/ SG. A 'PR person' is nothing but lip service, IMO. It gives the Administration someone that they can trot out as a 'compromise', and if(when) no change ever occurs, it gives them a fall-guy. Plus, Administrators should already fill that role.
I seem to recall that the German General Staff was 'relatively happy or apathetic' with the positions of Chancellor and President being occupied by one Adolf Hitler and patiently endured his authority despite his continual, if subtle, alterations and undermining of their rights, voice, influence, and power before 1939, and didn't expect any sort of 'catastrophic failure' either. Well, we know how that turned out.
My point being, that the situation needs to be resolved before it degrades further, if indeed that is the general belief.
It's official that this whole thing has gone entirely too far when people draw comparisons like this. It's views like these are the exact reason I want no part of this anymore.
I don't speak for any moderator/global/admin when I say this. I speak for myself and myself only -
Here's the deal - if you don't like how this board is run, you always have the option to create another board with your own rules. Millions of people didn't have that option, and no moderator will try to find you hiding in an attic. Frankly, you should be ashamed as a human being for even making this comparison.
It's official that this whole thing has gone entirely too far when people draw comparisons like this. It's views like these are the exact reason I want no part of this anymore.
I don't speak for any moderator/global/admin when I say this. I speak for myself and myself only -
Here's the deal - if you don't like how this board is run, you always have the option to create another board with your own rules. Millions of people didn't have that option, and no moderator will try to find you hiding in an attic. Frankly, you should be ashamed as a human being for even making this comparison.
With almost complete certainty, we can assume was using that as a hyperbole. I agree that using the Holocaust as a hyperbole for this situation is shameful.
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I swear its always the same people on Speak Your Mind that are so unhappy with stuff while 90% of the population or more are fine with it.
I swear it's always different people who come into conversations they aren't involved in, make generalizations, even though 10% of the active community are fine without them.
See this thread to see what happens when we go down the road you're taking us down
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Wow comparing the mods to Hitlers regime that is insane. I am surprised thats not moded for an infraction lol.
It wasnt infracted for 2 reasons I see.
1. It had a point, and was not spam
2. It never actually said that the Modsquad was like hitler, just saying that the idea of nothing drastic happening yet means not much change was like hitler, not flaming the modsquad either.
I really think this site needs to learn the difference between a fact and a flame.
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<hotshizle> WINE IN FRONT OF MEAL
<hotshizle> i think
Before we can even go about suggesting things, some quetions need to be answered.
What are the requirements for a moderator to be assigned?
What are the conditions a moderator is promoted to a global mod?
Do you believe that there could be a test devised from recent and past admins to try and help find a 3rd admin?
I imagine we could try and come up with criteria and nominate folks. By test, do you mean a general sort of questionnaire that folks fill out? For e.g.:
A/S/L
-Do you like torture?
-Convicted Felon?
-Microwave babies if they mess their diaper, yes or no?
I know that when I think of the ideal mod, I think of Fadeblue, but I imagine he wouldn't be interested in the added responsibility. Which is part of what would make him such an excellent choice.
I swear it's always different people who come into conversations they aren't involved in, make generalizations, even though 10% of the active community are fine without them.
Oh my opinion doesn't matter here wow your close minded and what not. I can post in this if I feel like it and guess what my opinion ='s yours in importance or whatever.
I definitely have wanted a third admin for quite some time now. It has been something that has been discussed on multiple occasions between the staff. It's just a matter of finding the person we feel is correct for the position.
Some people have suggested bringing in somebody from outside the staff. I do not like this idea at all. The reason why is that there is a learning curve that coincides with the way that the staff system is set up. When I was made a moderator, I learned many things over time about what was appropriate within rules, how to set up rules in my forum, how to moderate, and all of the beginner to advanced moderator knowledge of that kind. As a global, I learned how the different forums operate, common forumwide issues, and other kinds of advanced moderator knowledge. All of this prepared me for my administrator position. By bypassing this learning over time process, the administration opens itself to a lot of problems. A longstanding moderator or, more preferably, a global moderator makes the best fit for an administrator in my opinion. I know that many people will disagree with me on this, but that is definitely how I see it.
I would also like to give my side in what I feel is a misconception. Some people have cited Urzassedatives (Greg) as not being active or involved. While this comment does not go without some merit, it does looks that way from many perspectives and is sometimes true from a posting and moderation standpoint, he does a lot of work that the public doesn't ever fully see. Even when I was a Global I had this view, but after being an Administrator, I see how much Urzassedatives does for the site. He always offers his take on decisions and he has a lot of experience in running the site. We both confer when we make decisions and throw around ideas. Regardless of how our views match up at times, we both trust eachother to throw out ideas and give honest opinions. While you often don't directly see what he does, he does have a heavy influence on the sites decisions. Even while he was gone for this past week or so, we still talked via text message about decisions. Neither of us are trying to rule the site alone or with an iron fist, we keep the other in check. Certainly a third moderator would help everything, I'm not trying to go against that at all here.
Oh my opinion doesn't matter here wow your close minded and what not. I can post in this if I feel like it and guess what my opinion ='s yours in importance or whatever.
Unless I misunderstand Jobie's intent there, he was merely expressing his distaste for your allusion to the subject of the 'vocal minority', which, from what I have read, is apparently a hot-button issue, as the root of the majority of the problems and outspoken threads in Speak Your Mind.
Oh my opinion doesn't matter here wow your close minded and what not. I can post in this if I feel like it and guess what my opinion ='s yours in importance or whatever.
Some people have suggested bringing in somebody from outside the staff. I do not like this idea at all. The reason why is that there is a learning curve that coincides with the way that the staff system is set up. When I was made a moderator, I learned many things over time about what was appropriate within rules, how to set up rules in my forum, how to moderate, and all of the beginner to advanced moderator knowledge of that kind. As a global, I learned how the different forums operate, common forumwide issues, and other kinds of advanced moderator knowledge. All of this prepared me for my administrator position. By bypassing this learning over time process, the administration opens itself to a lot of problems. A longstanding moderator or, more preferably, a global moderator makes the best fit for an administrator in my opinion. I know that many people will disagree with me on this, but that is definitely how I see it.
What if I tell you I have a canidate who'se been an admin elsewhere for several years. I can also tell you that having this particular person as admin would probably calm a lot of the people who come to the SYM and complain regularly.
I'll give you a hint, his name starts with N and rhymes with ICK. Around here, he's more commonly known as CYAN.
I was told today that this kid on my team called 911 twice this morning and hung up both times. They called back and his dad answered. The reason the kid called 911? He got an erection and didn't know what to do. I wish I was making this up.
I definitely have wanted a third admin for quite some time now. It has been something that has been discussed on multiple occasions between the staff. It's just a matter of finding the person we feel is correct for the position.
Some people have suggested bringing in somebody from outside the staff. I do not like this idea at all. The reason why is that there is a learning curve that coincides with the way that the staff system is set up. When I was made a moderator, I learned many things over time about what was appropriate within rules, how to set up rules in my forum, how to moderate, and all of the beginner to advanced moderator knowledge of that kind. As a global, I learned how the different forums operate, common forumwide issues, and other kinds of advanced moderator knowledge. All of this prepared me for my administrator position. By bypassing this learning over time process, the administration opens itself to a lot of problems. A longstanding moderator or, more preferably, a global moderator makes the best fit for an administrator in my opinion. I know that many people will disagree with me on this, but that is definitely how I see it.
I would also like to give my side in what I feel is a misconception. Some people have cited Urzassedatives (Greg) as not being active or involved. While this comment does not go without some merit, it does looks that way from many perspectives and is sometimes true from a posting and moderation standpoint, he does a lot of work that the public doesn't ever fully see. Even when I was a Global I had this view, but after being an Administrator, I see how much Urzassedatives does for the site. He always offers his take on decisions and he has a lot of experience in running the site. We both confer when we make decisions and throw around ideas. Regardless of how our views match up at times, we both trust eachother to throw out ideas and give honest opinions. While you often don't directly see what he does, he does have a heavy influence on the sites decisions. Even while he was gone for this past week or so, we still talked via text message about decisions. Neither of us are trying to rule the site alone or with an iron fist, we keep the other in check. Certainly a third moderator would help everything, I'm not trying to go against that at all here.
You're overstating what it takes to be an Admin on a message board. It takes committed effort(time, specifically) and common sense regarding social interactions. It occurs to me that Seds lacks the former and has the latter, while you have the former and lack the latter. You'd think that this would work itself out, but it obviously doesn't, as evidenced by the fact that you close threads that Greg would have certainly left open, and that you fired Craven while Greg wasn't even around. And anyone that has spent any amount of time being a member of the forum knows how things work, it doesn't take being a Staff member to understand the application of the rules, it just takes activity.
As for promoting from within..in these circumstances, good luck. I agree w/ Azrael that Fade would be a good candidate, but I doubt he wants the job. I think that Votan could also do the job well, but clearly he doesn't have the time that would be required. Anyone else on the current staff, IMO, would only make the situation worse.
Honestly, I think that Lesurgo simply lacks the social maturity and development(mostly due to his age) to run a message board. I mean honestly, you're talking about someone that is so unrealistically stubborn about 'not swearing' that he won't even type out the name of the magic card 'Damnation'. While some people may think that this is minor and petty of me to bring up, it is not. It shows an absolutely inflexibility to act in a manner which is practical, even taking into account an instance where a user with the word 'damned' in his name got offended because Lesurgo would constantly edit it to 'darned' whenever responding to this person. It is just silly and unrealistic.
Forgive me if I'm reading this incorrectly, but I fail to see how choosing not to swear reflects a "lack of social maturity and development" or "inflexibility to act in a manner which is practical". It's completely Lesurgo's choice not to swear, and I can't think of a situation where swearing would be at all "practical" on this forum. If he actually took offence to it, then I could see how it could be inflexible, but otherwise I don't see the relevance, even with just 'damn'. Otherwise, I see where you have merit, though I don't judge Lesurgo as harshly.
On the overall topic, I have witnessed a couple of bad decisions on the admins' part in recent times, but other than that I've never seen anything that I'd consider bad enough to call for their resignation. A third admin, if chosen and handled correctly, could prove beneficial.
Instead of writing more, I'll summarise (and let you read a much more awesome writing style in the process): I agree with everything Azrael has said here.
I think that Mikey is too heavy handed, which is not what the site needs.
And in a statement that is sure to draw ire and controversy, I have observed that mikeyg is biased towards people in Gaymers, which casts doubt upon his ability as a moderator, let alone as an admin. I agree that Mikey is charismatic, but, that in and of itself isn't enough. Sneaky was charismatic too, but also had a tendency to let people that he liked do whatever they wanted(figuring out how KCW stuck around for so long isn't exactly a great mystery). An admin has to be capable of complete objectivity, as his loyalty must be to the community as an entirety, not to any individual users. I never felt that sneaky portrayed this, nor has Mikey that I have seen.
I would say, sneaky, that in our current situation, any opinion we try to bring up about a particular person will be labelled as 'too much based on generalisation or personal opinion or preferences.' For the most part we don't have an enormous amount of data to decide from, so we must go with what we know - be it subjective or not.
May Cyan's opinions about {mikeyG} be unfounded? Sure! But they're founded enough for many of us to support them. I don't think, therefore, that he would be a very good choice to appease those people, and that seems to be an important factor here.
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Sing lustily and with good courage.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
Examples of MikeyG's behaviors? If you need an example of him being heavy handed, read the forums he moderates and look at some of his warnings/infractions. Not only does he give out warnings far too frequently, but he mocks the people while giving them. Which clearly is only going to incite said people to get pissed off and react badly.
As for the idea that 'everyone is biased so it is okay'..that is patently absurd. Bias is absolutely *not ever* acceptable in positions of authority. Honestly, it's not even okay from a Moderator, but it would be inexcusable from an Administrator. And again, if you need examples of bias, read the forums that Mikey moderates. People from Gaymers mysteriously get vastly more tolerance than anyone else.(Nevermind that so many of the comments made in the Gaymers thread, if made in any other clan, would be infracted in a millisecond, yet none of the staff that post there do anything to discourage it..even in The Called, which apparently gets special treatment, has been called out for sexual comments that were not remotely as bad as some of the stuff that gets said in the Gaymers thread). I have noticed this for a long time, and I'm certain that I'm not the only one. If you need an example more specific than that, in the past, blue had a signature that was *extremely* inappropriate because of a disgusting sexually related statement in it. It is impossible that MikeyG didn't see this signature, considering that he and blue are in the same clan, and that he and blue were posting in the same thread in one of Mikey's forums, yet nothing was done about said signature. It was around for quite awhile before I finally approached Lesurgo, wondering if I was just overreacting and something like that was actually acceptable. Of course, this was not the case, and Lesurgo immediately acted upon the problem(all of my faults with his administrative style aside, Lesurgo is certainly capable of the objectivity that an Administrator needs, as is Seds..honestly, the idea that 'everyone is biased so it is okay is just so ridiculous that it flabbergasts me). If you need more examples, they can't be hard to find.
You can't just force a person to be an Admin, not if you expect them to be effective. Though I do agree that fade is, far and away, the best person for the job. It's a shame that Votan is essentially a ghost these days, I really think that he would perform admirably and would actually be interested in doing so.
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Seriously though, Azrael is right. Nothing dire has happened yet. The idea is to solve problems *before* some catastrophe occurs, if you feel like the events are leading in that direction, which is how I feel.
I agree a PR type position would help out immensely. Also a candidate i think for the PR position would be someone like Azrael who never seems to lose his/her cool in these discussions and always has something intriguing to add to the conversation in a very diplomatic way.
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
The only relative flaw with this, in my mind, is that the staff should never, ever be so distanced from the community that the community needs a representative to explain their wishes to the staff.
Not to bandwagon Cyan, but comparing any single person or action on the Internet to Adolf Hitler and the Nazi regime is so immediately short-sighted that it's laughable.
Thanks.
Bringing in someone not already on the staff is unheard of and scares me to an extend. I do believe that we need to see someone as a moderator first before we can judge how they will administrate. There are a few non-staff members that I would trust with this, though.
The idea of a 'PR person' sort of rubs me the wrong way. Of three administrators one should be able to do this.
It's official that this whole thing has gone entirely too far when people draw comparisons like this. It's views like these are the exact reason I want no part of this anymore.
I don't speak for any moderator/global/admin when I say this. I speak for myself and myself only -
Here's the deal - if you don't like how this board is run, you always have the option to create another board with your own rules. Millions of people didn't have that option, and no moderator will try to find you hiding in an attic. Frankly, you should be ashamed as a human being for even making this comparison.
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With almost complete certainty, we can assume was using that as a hyperbole. I agree that using the Holocaust as a hyperbole for this situation is shameful.
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While I am not a huge fan of Lesurgo I have no problem with him like some people seem too.
I swear its always the same people on Speak Your Mind that are so unhappy with stuff while 90% of the population or more are fine with it.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
I swear it's always different people who come into conversations they aren't involved in, make generalizations, even though 10% of the active community are fine without them.
See this thread to see what happens when we go down the road you're taking us down
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Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
It wasnt infracted for 2 reasons I see.
1. It had a point, and was not spam
2. It never actually said that the Modsquad was like hitler, just saying that the idea of nothing drastic happening yet means not much change was like hitler, not flaming the modsquad either.
I really think this site needs to learn the difference between a fact and a flame.
What are the requirements for a moderator to be assigned?
What are the conditions a moderator is promoted to a global mod?
Do you believe that there could be a test devised from recent and past admins to try and help find a 3rd admin?
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I imagine we could try and come up with criteria and nominate folks. By test, do you mean a general sort of questionnaire that folks fill out? For e.g.:
A/S/L
-Do you like torture?
-Convicted Felon?
-Microwave babies if they mess their diaper, yes or no?
I know that when I think of the ideal mod, I think of Fadeblue, but I imagine he wouldn't be interested in the added responsibility. Which is part of what would make him such an excellent choice.
Oh my opinion doesn't matter here wow your close minded and what not. I can post in this if I feel like it and guess what my opinion ='s yours in importance or whatever.
Feel free to bid on my cards here!
Some people have suggested bringing in somebody from outside the staff. I do not like this idea at all. The reason why is that there is a learning curve that coincides with the way that the staff system is set up. When I was made a moderator, I learned many things over time about what was appropriate within rules, how to set up rules in my forum, how to moderate, and all of the beginner to advanced moderator knowledge of that kind. As a global, I learned how the different forums operate, common forumwide issues, and other kinds of advanced moderator knowledge. All of this prepared me for my administrator position. By bypassing this learning over time process, the administration opens itself to a lot of problems. A longstanding moderator or, more preferably, a global moderator makes the best fit for an administrator in my opinion. I know that many people will disagree with me on this, but that is definitely how I see it.
I would also like to give my side in what I feel is a misconception. Some people have cited Urzassedatives (Greg) as not being active or involved. While this comment does not go without some merit, it does looks that way from many perspectives and is sometimes true from a posting and moderation standpoint, he does a lot of work that the public doesn't ever fully see. Even when I was a Global I had this view, but after being an Administrator, I see how much Urzassedatives does for the site. He always offers his take on decisions and he has a lot of experience in running the site. We both confer when we make decisions and throw around ideas. Regardless of how our views match up at times, we both trust eachother to throw out ideas and give honest opinions. While you often don't directly see what he does, he does have a heavy influence on the sites decisions. Even while he was gone for this past week or so, we still talked via text message about decisions. Neither of us are trying to rule the site alone or with an iron fist, we keep the other in check. Certainly a third moderator would help everything, I'm not trying to go against that at all here.
Unless I misunderstand Jobie's intent there, he was merely expressing his distaste for your allusion to the subject of the 'vocal minority', which, from what I have read, is apparently a hot-button issue, as the root of the majority of the problems and outspoken threads in Speak Your Mind.
And this is why we don't elect moderators.
What if I tell you I have a canidate who'se been an admin elsewhere for several years. I can also tell you that having this particular person as admin would probably calm a lot of the people who come to the SYM and complain regularly.
I'll give you a hint, his name starts with N and rhymes with ICK. Around here, he's more commonly known as CYAN.
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No way.
You're overstating what it takes to be an Admin on a message board. It takes committed effort(time, specifically) and common sense regarding social interactions. It occurs to me that Seds lacks the former and has the latter, while you have the former and lack the latter. You'd think that this would work itself out, but it obviously doesn't, as evidenced by the fact that you close threads that Greg would have certainly left open, and that you fired Craven while Greg wasn't even around. And anyone that has spent any amount of time being a member of the forum knows how things work, it doesn't take being a Staff member to understand the application of the rules, it just takes activity.
As for promoting from within..in these circumstances, good luck. I agree w/ Azrael that Fade would be a good candidate, but I doubt he wants the job. I think that Votan could also do the job well, but clearly he doesn't have the time that would be required. Anyone else on the current staff, IMO, would only make the situation worse.
Forgive me if I'm reading this incorrectly, but I fail to see how choosing not to swear reflects a "lack of social maturity and development" or "inflexibility to act in a manner which is practical". It's completely Lesurgo's choice not to swear, and I can't think of a situation where swearing would be at all "practical" on this forum. If he actually took offence to it, then I could see how it could be inflexible, but otherwise I don't see the relevance, even with just 'damn'. Otherwise, I see where you have merit, though I don't judge Lesurgo as harshly.
On the overall topic, I have witnessed a couple of bad decisions on the admins' part in recent times, but other than that I've never seen anything that I'd consider bad enough to call for their resignation. A third admin, if chosen and handled correctly, could prove beneficial.
Instead of writing more, I'll summarise (and let you read a much more awesome writing style in the process): I agree with everything Azrael has said here.
U Twinsanity
WUBRG Reaper King
UBG Dredge
UR Howling Owl
GBU Thief of Time
And in a statement that is sure to draw ire and controversy, I have observed that mikeyg is biased towards people in Gaymers, which casts doubt upon his ability as a moderator, let alone as an admin. I agree that Mikey is charismatic, but, that in and of itself isn't enough. Sneaky was charismatic too, but also had a tendency to let people that he liked do whatever they wanted(figuring out how KCW stuck around for so long isn't exactly a great mystery). An admin has to be capable of complete objectivity, as his loyalty must be to the community as an entirety, not to any individual users. I never felt that sneaky portrayed this, nor has Mikey that I have seen.
May Cyan's opinions about {mikeyG} be unfounded? Sure! But they're founded enough for many of us to support them. I don't think, therefore, that he would be a very good choice to appease those people, and that seems to be an important factor here.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
As for the idea that 'everyone is biased so it is okay'..that is patently absurd. Bias is absolutely *not ever* acceptable in positions of authority. Honestly, it's not even okay from a Moderator, but it would be inexcusable from an Administrator. And again, if you need examples of bias, read the forums that Mikey moderates. People from Gaymers mysteriously get vastly more tolerance than anyone else.(Nevermind that so many of the comments made in the Gaymers thread, if made in any other clan, would be infracted in a millisecond, yet none of the staff that post there do anything to discourage it..even in The Called, which apparently gets special treatment, has been called out for sexual comments that were not remotely as bad as some of the stuff that gets said in the Gaymers thread). I have noticed this for a long time, and I'm certain that I'm not the only one. If you need an example more specific than that, in the past, blue had a signature that was *extremely* inappropriate because of a disgusting sexually related statement in it. It is impossible that MikeyG didn't see this signature, considering that he and blue are in the same clan, and that he and blue were posting in the same thread in one of Mikey's forums, yet nothing was done about said signature. It was around for quite awhile before I finally approached Lesurgo, wondering if I was just overreacting and something like that was actually acceptable. Of course, this was not the case, and Lesurgo immediately acted upon the problem(all of my faults with his administrative style aside, Lesurgo is certainly capable of the objectivity that an Administrator needs, as is Seds..honestly, the idea that 'everyone is biased so it is okay is just so ridiculous that it flabbergasts me). If you need more examples, they can't be hard to find.