I disagree that the position should go to someone that doesn't want it. That doesn't really make alot of sense. What matters is *why* they want it. If they want it to look cool, obviously that is unacceptable. If they want it because they feel they could do the job better than anyone else, and particularly if they feel it is not being done adequately now, than they have a huge advantage, because their desire towards the job is based in benevolence.
I didn't mean doesn't want it as in "I don't want the position ever", because then the position would be impossible to fill. I meant something more along the lines of "I'm not actively pursuing it like people who want to pad their digital resume or whatnot".
Eh, I'd love to continue discussing the infraction I gave, but it's off topic. We can take it elsewhere.
I think Pod has it right on the money.
I agree with other people who have said it (can't remember names) that non-mods probably don't have what it takes. What I mean by that is they don't have the experience, and they don't know what they're getting themselves into. It's been said before that moderating is not fun, it's a job. I remember that I was excited about joining up, then found a lot of work ahead of me, and realized it's not all that glamorous. People want to get into it for the glamor, I think.
What we really need is interested folks put into moderating positions of the high-traffic forums, like Rumors and the like, and put through their paces. Learn what just a small fraction of the work is like. People don't really see how much work there is. I'm not really one to talk, because my forums are practically self-fulfilling. But if you had access to the mod cave, to SEE what's going on... I watch it sometimes, reading some of the warnings and why they're issued, reading the discussions among the staff on changes to be made or needing help on a situation. There's a lot of work involved. And that's just on the MODERATOR level. Go on up to Global, or Admin...
I would say that anyone that has been a moderator on some message board, or held a management position at a job, or even a parent, should have an understanding of what is necessary for this position. The necessary skillset for those is the same.
But you have to know the nuances, though. What is worth a spam warning? When is necroing okay? When do you use a warning, when an infraction? These rules are very general, differences depending on the actual forum. To have the job for admin, not only do you have to know every forum, you also have to know global rules and other things. There's a lot of tech work involved, I think. Plus personal skills. For the latter, though, your examples are spot-on.
The quality of this thread has definitely gone up. That's really nice to see. Discussion breeds new ideas, and with new ideas, new lines of communication are opened. Yay.
I agree, the position is probably a lot of work. It's a job that you do and don't get paid for, either. Most of the time you don't even get a thank you for it. The point is, you have to be the right kind of person to do this. I think that our two current admins are doing the best they can do (barring the Craven issue; I'm really not going to go into that here) considering that there's only the pair of them to oversee pretty much everything that goes on. It's not easy, being the one to have to make all the decisions. Let me give you an example. When I first became a mod in the Legacy forum, I was a little...harsh. I think that a lot of people who are thrust into a role of "power" might be, at first. Then I learned that I didn't have to be such a *****. That made people happy. It's not always about making people happy, it's doing what you have to do, even if it pisses people off. The comments I see recently are on the right track, guys. The quality you're looking for is good judgement, which is something that's not easy to come by. You have to be able to look at things objectively and subjectively at the same time...and that's not exactly easy.
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
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This is Deraxas we're talking about.
Remember, the girl that just killed an aspect of herself before literally consuming her?
Yeah, I don't see her handling a pissing match in any way other than a duel.
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Yes mistress...
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There are only so many epic, psuedonatural barbarian/blackguard half-dragon akutenshai vampire balor paragons they can throw at you, right?
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I suppose it's true. Though the logistics implied in a human/Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon pairing makes me shudder.
...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
But you have to know the nuances, though. What is worth a spam warning? When is necroing okay? When do you use a warning, when an infraction? These rules are very general, differences depending on the actual forum. To have the job for admin, not only do you have to know every forum, you also have to know global rules and other things. There's a lot of tech work involved, I think. Plus personal skills. For the latter, though, your examples are spot-on.
These are things one can pick up just by paying attention. It doesn't take actual modding to get an opinion on what spam is, or when a certain action is. and we assume already that everyone is reading the rules, so that's not a problem.
I can't stand the whole idea that the mods are just extensions of the admins, and vica versa.
I don't support that idea one bit, and I still dislike it when moderators are making judgment calls that aren't theirs to make and things like that.
Clearly this is something to change.
I never received an answer, which bothers me. I really think that the admins are trying to make the mod squad better by firing and hiring people under the impression that they'll eventually find qualified people for the jobs. However, this massive turnover and lack of accountability makes me really suspicious of the policies adapted at this time. The fact that Craven, of all people, hasn't gotten a response to his PM is really frustrating.
I am still trying to decide how I feel on the entire situation.
We are not firing people left and right.
We removed Craven as a global, and that situation was mishandled, and honestly did not want him destaffed outright.
You spoke of the hierarchal system we have here. The deglobalization of Craven was an attempt to restore it.
Edit: And why the hell aren't we getting ANSWERS? Craven hasn't gotten a response, I haven't gotten a response... are you guys really just waiting for this to blow over?!
Hardly. I am trying to put my thoughts together to head up a worthy response to Craven. I will likely draft something up tonight.
Patience? I think Lesurgo isn't around as often as usually the past few days, and I have been reformatting my laptop all day.
I am trying to keep up with this thread, and I think I am doing a decent job with that.
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But that's the problem right there, I think. There's different views between the staff and the users what spam is. Trolling is sometimes difficult to pick out. It can be hard to decide when abrasiveness is crossing the line. These are just things I've seen dissenting views on in SYM alone. Not to mention things like racial insults (remember that thread?) or how to handle the whiplash after a popular person is banned.
These things aren't just cut and dry, as threads in SYM have shown. And an admin has to deal with it all. I'm not sure if any old person can handle it.
But that's the problem right there, I think. There's different views between the staff and the users what spam is. Trolling is sometimes difficult to pick out. It can be hard to decide when abrasiveness is crossing the line. These are just things I've seen dissenting views on in SYM alone. Not to mention things like racial insults (remember that thread?) or how to handle the whiplash after a popular person is banned.
These things aren't just cut and dry, as threads in SYM have shown. And an admin has to deal with it all. I'm not sure if any old person can handle it.
There's different views between individual staff members as well, though! There's no real single definition of spam. Your idea of spam might not match my idea of spam might not match Lesurgo's idea of spam. The fact that is that there's no way that you can expect a single definition of such things.
There is no worthy response to what happened to Craven, because what happened to him was uncalled for, and the following response was so abyssmal, that the situation is likely unsalvageable. The best you can do is apologize to him, and admit that you screwed up entirely. In fairness, you could offer him his position back. Somehow, I doubt that is going to happen. I don't really understand how firing him was an attempt to fix some hierarchy problem, especially when someone else was immediately promoted afterwards. Similarly, the notion that you 'didn't want him destaff outright' is deplorable. Did you really expect him to take being demoted when he had no prior knowledge of not doing an acceptable job? I mean honestly..are you that out of touch with your own staff that you thought that Craven, of all people, would be so pathetic as to just accept something like that lying down?
And it's fairly convenient that Lesurgo, who is always around, mysteriously isn't around when a crisis occurs. Especially since it is largely a crisis of his creation. This is highly telling of his capability as an Admin. Everyone makes mistakes. Not owning up to your mistakes is unacceptable.
I don't really understand what the following means:
Quote from Xyre »
I can't stand the whole idea that the mods are just extensions of the admins, and vica versa.
But, Xyre, you have to remember that the admin is the head of state here. Spam is against the rules. But if they don't have a clear view of what IS spam, then they aren't doing their job. They should be the ultimate in knowledge of the rules. They should be able to solve any dispute over the rules. If they can't, if their view is unacceptable, then they aren't doing their job. So they should know enough about the workings of the site to know how to rule when.
Cyan: I think Xyre is referring to a comment I and others have made, that mods are under the admin and are more like fingers for them. They make the rules (given power by Hannes, the owner) and the moderators enforce them. I might be wrong ,though.
I took that for him to mean that 'anything a mod does is law and shall hold fast' or 'anything a mod says is clearly the policy of the site'...something like that?
Like I said, I am thinking about what happened to Craven quite often lately, and trying to choose my words carefully. I am not the best at writing my thoughts out and I want to make sure I get my opinion out accurately.
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The solution lies within all of us, here. If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem. Complaining without giving viable ways to fix that which bothers you is nothing more than complaining- it serves no purpose other than stress relief and will probably make more people mad than it pacifies.
That's a little bit of a problem when your ways you talk about either get locked for being off topic, or you aren't listened too.
Quote from "Kokusho" »
I think the "us and them" mentality is one of the problems this site is having. It's not about "us and them"; the main difference between a moderator and a regular user is the fact that the moderator has a LOT more work to do with the site. By saying this, I'm not downing those people who spend a lot of time doing good things for the site (WP leaders, all the great artists, the people who run the Mafia games, the regular games, and so forth) but praising them- people do care, here
For someone I believe to be a giant proponent of the "Us vs them" mentality, please see my post in The "Vocal Minority" thread.
Quote from "Danny" »
Edit: Oh and I think Nai should be made an admin simply so he can set up WP forums without having to go through another admin. I think that's why ElGato is an admin at 'News. I've always thought this, and Senori, when he was on the staff, would have probably made a good admin anyway.
I strongly oppose Nai being an Admin.
Quote from "CYAN" »
In fairness, EinsteinMonkey has said very little on this thread, and I certainly wouldn't say that what he has said is at all whining or complaining, Honestly, it frustrates me when people have legitimate concerns and someone just comes along and says 'stop whining/complaining'. It is a cop-out.
Q
F
T
Quote from "Shaharazad" »
Is that why they join? Ever think of why they stay?
Salvation is kept strong because we don't tolerate pages of spam. This keeps it from looking like the wizards message boards. The staff weeds out petty trolls and flamers, this helps the community to flourish without degrading into some second rate remake of Mad Max.
Yeah, but along with this added strictness obviously will come some unfair dealings. People most definitely don't come because the modding is awesome, or else I'm pretty sure many members would have left already.
Quote from "Shaharazad" »
Hmm. Granted, but only so long as the rules remain intact. But the crux of this comes back to PJ in a bizzare way. I personally feel that the site is better off without his presence, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe most of the people who claim disatisfaction with the current staff is unhappy with the banning of PJ.
I would like to know how this is relevant.
Quote from "Kokusho" »
I sure do. I also know that there is a right way and a wrong way to do things. Letting yourslef be heard by filling your posts full of "**** you" and "this mod can eat **** and die" qualify as whining to me....while a post that says "I have a problem with ~, and this is why..." are definitely the RIGHT way.
You're blowing things out of proportion. How many posts do you actually see like this in the SYM forum? Pretty much just the one where PJ went over the edge.
Quote from "Nai" »
As for candidates for the position, I have no idea who could do it. I'm also of the opinion that bringing in outside help, someone not already on the mod team, is a bad idea. For anyone that doesn't already have moderator experience, they'd be shoved into a lot of work really quickly and have to learn everything on the fly. That was one of my problems; I went into Forum Games, didn't know the precise rules, made a mistake that caused a lot of drama. We need someone that knows what they're doing, what they're getting into, the nuances of each forum.
........Yet I know you've played mafia before, and KNEW those rules.
I don't know about Kokusho being an admin. She can write things that look very nice, but are the things she's saying actually true, or truly deal with the issues at hand?
Quote from "Cyan" »
If anything, people are MORE lenient when someone is new. No one gets flack right after they take the job. People start to get upset when a person has had the position for 6 months/1 year/whatever and are still making irresponsible decisions. When people seem to not learn from something that should clearly be a learning process, that is what makes people insecure.
I would personally be even MORE lenient if, whenever someone does make a mistake, they don't try to hammer that point in, but actually either prove it's right, or say something along the lines of "Sorry guys".
You know.
How about you DO bring someone outside of the modding team for becoming an Admin, but you train them as a mod.... for say..... a month or two? That way, they will know the basics, and still have the qualitys of an admin?
Quote from "Kashmyr" »
With this thread turning into nothing but reasons why no one's good enough, why would most users want to put themselves up for any nomination?
So... do you have anything else to add, or are you going to attack pointless things that don't really matter?
I believe Pod would be an excellent candidate myself.
I like Nai. I've known Nai for years, and recommended him to be Collo Mod. He's a nice guy.
But I wouldn't want him as an Admin.
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Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
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Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
Knew about the rules? Yes. Knew that spam was allowed in the mafia forum here? No. And there was no way for me to know about that, since I hadn't been in the mafia forum here before. That's the sort of thing you need experience around the site for, which is why I say someone needs to spend time working as a mod before getting admin'd. Especially someone who isn't already a mod.
Knew about the rules? Yes. Knew that spam was allowed in the mafia forum here? No. And there was no way for me to know about that, since I hadn't been in the mafia forum here before. That's the sort of thing you need experience around the site for, which is why I say someone needs to spend time working as a mod before getting admin'd. Especially someone who isn't already a mod.
Even though I'm pretty sure you knew Mafia protocol about Bah posts from scum.
Again, yes, I had known about the "Bah protocol" from Mafiascum. But that's a site completely about mafia, so of course there'd be no rules against spam. This isn't a site about mafia, so there's no way to know how rules regarding 'bah' posts are handled until you actually go and find out.
Though it is certainly disappointing that not one current Staff member has the apparent confidence to put themselves forward for the job. And those that undoubtedly do have it apparently aren't interested.
I would take the position if it were offered to me. I've done it before at other sites, and I'd like to think I could do some good for the community as a whole here.
That said, perhaps people aren't self-nominating because of the messageboard stigma against it? Y'know, "the easiest way to not be considered for a mod position is to say you want one." I don't know how prevalent that is here, but I've definitely seen it elsewhere.
This has turned into a very good and productive thread. I was concerned at first that it would devolve into more bitterness and flames, but I've been pleasantly surprised by it. Props to those who are making positive contributions. THat's what we need more of.
correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe most of the people who claim disatisfaction with the current staff is unhappy with the banning of PJ.
As asked, here is your correction. PJ's banning was controversial because the actions that led up to it were controversial, not because anyone particularly wanted him around. Saying that you can ban a person because 'he isn't good for the site, IMO' leads to a constriction of acceptable behavior that is bad for the site. PJ was very bannable, if the mods wanted felt he wasn't good for the site, but they were overeager and infracted/banned him for reasons that are disturbing to those who pay attention. The rules for the members are gradually becoming more and more strict, while the rules for the mods are gradually becoming more and more liberal, and the members most likely to contest this issue are the people most likely to get banned.
PJ was not one of those people, he was just a jerk. But he was a jerk who never did anything that was incontrovertibly worth an infraction, which means that banning him is like a flare going up, warning everyone that the level of allowable behavior is shrinking, and it's going to continue unless someone steps up.
The site is better off without him in the sense that the level of behavior in the forums he frequented will rise. The site is definitely worse off, however, in the sense that there's more cause for worry about infractions for all the people who dare to be rude for the sake of proving a point, or who post in SYM to defy a mod or a ruling when there isn't any other clear recourse. PJ would very probably never have been banned if KCW hadn't been banned, and KCW never would have been banned if TFE hadn't been banned. There's a logical progression there that doesn't have any clear ending. Will it end with you?
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
That is quite a mighty if.
I didn't see the banning of PJ as a 'tightening up'.
He knew he was being a massive troll, and so he was was treated as such.
I do see what you are trying to say, and believe me, that is something I have been trying to prevent and push away since the KCW and BB bannings. I do not want things to get more strict in the least.
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PJ would very probably never have been banned if KCW hadn't been banned, and KCW never would have been banned if TFE hadn't been banned. There's a logical progression there that doesn't have any clear ending. Will it end with you?
I can sort of understand what you're saying. Sometimes bannings appear to be related. Like when Mortal Wombat got banned for being a jerk and then a few weeks later sleeping Villain(his fights with MORT are the stuff of legend) got banned. Both of these guys were...inflammatory and were walking the knifes edge for a long while. I thought that when they were banned that there might be some sort of purge going on but it was just a coincidence.
Cyan: Just as Dr Tom I would also accept the position if offered and I do think I would do a good job. However I have no intention of asking for it. I'm quite sure the admins are quite capable of choosing the best person for the position without people applying for it.
Dr tom: I agree This has turned out to definitivly be one of the more constructive threads.
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I disagree with Cyan's statement that it is bad that moderators haven't come out and nominated themselves. It isn't needed and only makes the progress harder. The admins have the most experience and knowledge of their staff and their abilities. Making it a public popularity contest will not make their decision easier and can only lead to disappointment and more disorder among the staff.
At this point pretty much everyone has had their say and pretty much everything has been said. The time is now for the admins to try and type up the answers to the questions that have been noted and come with a good solution to them. Also it would be good if they could find a third admin, but that certainly shouldn't be rushed.
With that said, I would appreciate the opportunity for public input on the selection of the third admin. My suggestion for this, is when it is narrowed down, the current admins put out who is being considered. Then, instead of starting a massive drama thread, any concerns be pm'ed to either admin or both.
That way your voice gets heard, concerns with a new admin get addressed and a massive drama fest is avoided.
I'm glad to see a third administrator is being considered. Of course it would relax some of what is put on the shoulders of any one admin, but a major feature is that it would change the leadership dynamic of the site. The administration's activity and responsiveness - just the whole way the site's been run - changed in considerable ways since Lesurgo was made administrator, and I believe it's in a good way. Many seem to disquieted right now with the nature of the current dynamic. I really don't agree with most of the major complaints being levied at Lesurgo, and I wouldn't like for him to step down, but installing an additional admin figure could go a really long way in both making whatever positive changes need made, and in possibly enhancing current channels between members and staff. A three-point, more diverse governance could really start making it feel like one has distinct authorities he or she can go to, instead of one authority that happens to be two people.
It seems the biggest barrier right now to coming up with a solid candidate for administrator is experience. There are people who demonstrate leadership skills, understanding of the rules, sensitivity to the MTGS community, good communication style . . . but most of these people either aren't mods, haven't been mods for long, or only moderate esoteric forums.
I suggest that this does mean that the criteria need being relaxed a little bit. As of now, all of the global moderators are recently appointed persons (except votan, who's activity level has decreased). None of the moderators that have been vocally nominated more than once are global moderators. As such, if a seasoned global mod can't be found, then we really can't ask for it.
As for {mikeyG}, I don't think he'd be a bad choice. He moderates the forums that are the most "community-oriented" at the moment, with the exception of Clans. He manages sometimes difficult decisions and priorities, with a fairly low threshold for error. About his criticisms . . .
Quote from Cyan »
Nevermind that so many of the comments made in the Gaymers thread, if made in any other clan, would be infracted in a millisecond, yet none of the staff that post there do anything to discourage it..even in The Called, which apparently gets special treatment, has been called out for sexual comments that were not remotely as bad as some of the stuff that gets said in the Gaymers thread
The sexual talk among the Gaymers is almost always either respectfully and responsibly discussed, or subtle enough to be no worse than what you'd see on evening television. Admittedly, people do sometimes make edgy comments, though I've usually seen these noted and admonished against.
I have noticed this for a long time, and I'm certain that I'm not the only one. If you need an example more specific than that, in the past, blue had a signature that was *extremely* inappropriate because of a disgusting sexually related statement in it. It is impossible that MikeyG didn't see this signature, considering that he and blue are in the same clan, and that he and blue were posting in the same thread in one of Mikey's forums, yet nothing was done about said signature.
It's likely that Mikey saw it and didn't see it as his place to take official action. He may well have advised him to change the signature (which he has).
Quote from Senori »
May Cyan's opinions about {mikeyG} be unfounded? Sure! But they're founded enough for many of us to support them.
I don't think it's right at all to say that these opinions are simulataneously unfounded and founded enough.
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All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the light that you see. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to be the peace that you feel. All that I yearn for, for richer or poorer, is to fill your heart on my own.
But the rainbow is an image of hope for many reasons, as it is a brilliant sight coming out of oftimes dismal weather.
Just looking at the first page of the current Gaymer's thread, there are multiple examples of statements that would receive instant warnings in any other Clan thread.
As for blue's previously inappropriate signature. When you are a Moderator, it is always your job to take action against circumstances like this. If he didn't feel comfortable saying something himself, it logically follows that he should have brought it ti someone else's attention. I know that this was not the case, because Lesurgo knew nothing of it when I brought it to his attention. This action on the part of MikeyG follows a pattern of bias that I have witnessed. Content that would often result in warnings in other clan threads but goes unchecked in Gaymers is more of the same. In The Called, and in other clan threads that I have seen, people police themselves. But in Gaymers, everyone just says whatever they want, no matter how inappropriate. Considering that the Clan has multiple active Mods, if they actually felt a sense of duty/obligation to the site, they would discourage such commentary. But they don't, because they lack the proper sensibility that is necessary in a quality staff member.
@Sneaky:
I disagree. In a situation such as this, someone needs to step up and, at the very least, indicate interest in the position. However, it is true that my position in this is slightly different than much of the rest of peoples. In my mind, another Admin is needed because the current Admins are both failing to do the job appropriately. Thus, the likelihood that they will be able to choose the correct candidate, only between themselves, with no one volunteering or nominating anyone else, is minimal in my mind. Most people just want a third admin to lessen the workload of the current two, so they might not suffer from the lack of confidence in the current Admins that I, and some others, do.
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I didn't mean doesn't want it as in "I don't want the position ever", because then the position would be impossible to fill. I meant something more along the lines of "I'm not actively pursuing it like people who want to pad their digital resume or whatnot".
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I think Pod has it right on the money.
I agree with other people who have said it (can't remember names) that non-mods probably don't have what it takes. What I mean by that is they don't have the experience, and they don't know what they're getting themselves into. It's been said before that moderating is not fun, it's a job. I remember that I was excited about joining up, then found a lot of work ahead of me, and realized it's not all that glamorous. People want to get into it for the glamor, I think.
What we really need is interested folks put into moderating positions of the high-traffic forums, like Rumors and the like, and put through their paces. Learn what just a small fraction of the work is like. People don't really see how much work there is. I'm not really one to talk, because my forums are practically self-fulfilling. But if you had access to the mod cave, to SEE what's going on... I watch it sometimes, reading some of the warnings and why they're issued, reading the discussions among the staff on changes to be made or needing help on a situation. There's a lot of work involved. And that's just on the MODERATOR level. Go on up to Global, or Admin...
My helpdesk should you need me.
My helpdesk should you need me.
I agree, the position is probably a lot of work. It's a job that you do and don't get paid for, either. Most of the time you don't even get a thank you for it. The point is, you have to be the right kind of person to do this. I think that our two current admins are doing the best they can do (barring the Craven issue; I'm really not going to go into that here) considering that there's only the pair of them to oversee pretty much everything that goes on. It's not easy, being the one to have to make all the decisions.
Let me give you an example. When I first became a mod in the Legacy forum, I was a little...harsh. I think that a lot of people who are thrust into a role of "power" might be, at first. Then I learned that I didn't have to be such a *****. That made people happy.
It's not always about making people happy, it's doing what you have to do, even if it pisses people off.
The comments I see recently are on the right track, guys. The quality you're looking for is good judgement, which is something that's not easy to come by. You have to be able to look at things objectively and subjectively at the same time...and that's not exactly easy.
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These are things one can pick up just by paying attention. It doesn't take actual modding to get an opinion on what spam is, or when a certain action is. and we assume already that everyone is reading the rules, so that's not a problem.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
I don't support that idea one bit, and I still dislike it when moderators are making judgment calls that aren't theirs to make and things like that.
Clearly this is something to change.
I am still trying to decide how I feel on the entire situation.
We are not firing people left and right.
We removed Craven as a global, and that situation was mishandled, and honestly did not want him destaffed outright.
You spoke of the hierarchal system we have here. The deglobalization of Craven was an attempt to restore it.
Hardly. I am trying to put my thoughts together to head up a worthy response to Craven. I will likely draft something up tonight.
Patience? I think Lesurgo isn't around as often as usually the past few days, and I have been reformatting my laptop all day.
I am trying to keep up with this thread, and I think I am doing a decent job with that.
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These things aren't just cut and dry, as threads in SYM have shown. And an admin has to deal with it all. I'm not sure if any old person can handle it.
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There's different views between individual staff members as well, though! There's no real single definition of spam. Your idea of spam might not match my idea of spam might not match Lesurgo's idea of spam. The fact that is that there's no way that you can expect a single definition of such things.
Experiments Series: #5 (Courtly Intrigue Mafia) | #4 (Drunken Tracker) | #3 (Big Red Button) - coming soon | #2 (Pope Mafia) | #1 (Iso's Inflammable Mafia)
Mini Games: MTGS Mafia Redux II (Invitational, Evil Mirror Universe) | Unreal City
Old Games (bad): The Greenwood Affair | Blood Moon Mafia
And it's fairly convenient that Lesurgo, who is always around, mysteriously isn't around when a crisis occurs. Especially since it is largely a crisis of his creation. This is highly telling of his capability as an Admin. Everyone makes mistakes. Not owning up to your mistakes is unacceptable.
I don't really understand what the following means:
Can someone shed some light onto that for me?
Cyan: I think Xyre is referring to a comment I and others have made, that mods are under the admin and are more like fingers for them. They make the rules (given power by Hannes, the owner) and the moderators enforce them. I might be wrong ,though.
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I took that for him to mean that 'anything a mod does is law and shall hold fast' or 'anything a mod says is clearly the policy of the site'...something like that?
Like I said, I am thinking about what happened to Craven quite often lately, and trying to choose my words carefully. I am not the best at writing my thoughts out and I want to make sure I get my opinion out accurately.
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That's a little bit of a problem when your ways you talk about either get locked for being off topic, or you aren't listened too.
I think the "us and them" mentality is one of the problems this site is having. It's not about "us and them"; the main difference between a moderator and a regular user is the fact that the moderator has a LOT more work to do with the site. By saying this, I'm not downing those people who spend a lot of time doing good things for the site (WP leaders, all the great artists, the people who run the Mafia games, the regular games, and so forth) but praising them- people do care, here
For someone I believe to be a giant proponent of the "Us vs them" mentality, please see my post in The "Vocal Minority" thread.
Edit: Oh and I think Nai should be made an admin simply so he can set up WP forums without having to go through another admin. I think that's why ElGato is an admin at 'News. I've always thought this, and Senori, when he was on the staff, would have probably made a good admin anyway.
I strongly oppose Nai being an Admin.
In fairness, EinsteinMonkey has said very little on this thread, and I certainly wouldn't say that what he has said is at all whining or complaining, Honestly, it frustrates me when people have legitimate concerns and someone just comes along and says 'stop whining/complaining'. It is a cop-out.
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Is that why they join? Ever think of why they stay?
Salvation is kept strong because we don't tolerate pages of spam. This keeps it from looking like the wizards message boards. The staff weeds out petty trolls and flamers, this helps the community to flourish without degrading into some second rate remake of Mad Max.
Yeah, but along with this added strictness obviously will come some unfair dealings. People most definitely don't come because the modding is awesome, or else I'm pretty sure many members would have left already.
Hmm. Granted, but only so long as the rules remain intact. But the crux of this comes back to PJ in a bizzare way. I personally feel that the site is better off without his presence, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe most of the people who claim disatisfaction with the current staff is unhappy with the banning of PJ.
I would like to know how this is relevant.
I sure do. I also know that there is a right way and a wrong way to do things. Letting yourslef be heard by filling your posts full of "**** you" and "this mod can eat **** and die" qualify as whining to me....while a post that says "I have a problem with ~, and this is why..." are definitely the RIGHT way.
You're blowing things out of proportion. How many posts do you actually see like this in the SYM forum? Pretty much just the one where PJ went over the edge.
As for candidates for the position, I have no idea who could do it. I'm also of the opinion that bringing in outside help, someone not already on the mod team, is a bad idea. For anyone that doesn't already have moderator experience, they'd be shoved into a lot of work really quickly and have to learn everything on the fly. That was one of my problems; I went into Forum Games, didn't know the precise rules, made a mistake that caused a lot of drama. We need someone that knows what they're doing, what they're getting into, the nuances of each forum.
........Yet I know you've played mafia before, and KNEW those rules.
I don't know about Kokusho being an admin. She can write things that look very nice, but are the things she's saying actually true, or truly deal with the issues at hand?
If anything, people are MORE lenient when someone is new. No one gets flack right after they take the job. People start to get upset when a person has had the position for 6 months/1 year/whatever and are still making irresponsible decisions. When people seem to not learn from something that should clearly be a learning process, that is what makes people insecure.
I would personally be even MORE lenient if, whenever someone does make a mistake, they don't try to hammer that point in, but actually either prove it's right, or say something along the lines of "Sorry guys".
You know.
How about you DO bring someone outside of the modding team for becoming an Admin, but you train them as a mod.... for say..... a month or two? That way, they will know the basics, and still have the qualitys of an admin?
With this thread turning into nothing but reasons why no one's good enough, why would most users want to put themselves up for any nomination?
So... do you have anything else to add, or are you going to attack pointless things that don't really matter?
I believe Pod would be an excellent candidate myself.
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Even though I'm pretty sure you knew Mafia protocol about Bah posts from scum.
It's just a concern I've had.
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I would take the position if it were offered to me. I've done it before at other sites, and I'd like to think I could do some good for the community as a whole here.
That said, perhaps people aren't self-nominating because of the messageboard stigma against it? Y'know, "the easiest way to not be considered for a mod position is to say you want one." I don't know how prevalent that is here, but I've definitely seen it elsewhere.
This has turned into a very good and productive thread. I was concerned at first that it would devolve into more bitterness and flames, but I've been pleasantly surprised by it. Props to those who are making positive contributions. THat's what we need more of.
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As asked, here is your correction. PJ's banning was controversial because the actions that led up to it were controversial, not because anyone particularly wanted him around. Saying that you can ban a person because 'he isn't good for the site, IMO' leads to a constriction of acceptable behavior that is bad for the site. PJ was very bannable, if the mods wanted felt he wasn't good for the site, but they were overeager and infracted/banned him for reasons that are disturbing to those who pay attention. The rules for the members are gradually becoming more and more strict, while the rules for the mods are gradually becoming more and more liberal, and the members most likely to contest this issue are the people most likely to get banned.
PJ was not one of those people, he was just a jerk. But he was a jerk who never did anything that was incontrovertibly worth an infraction, which means that banning him is like a flare going up, warning everyone that the level of allowable behavior is shrinking, and it's going to continue unless someone steps up.
The site is better off without him in the sense that the level of behavior in the forums he frequented will rise. The site is definitely worse off, however, in the sense that there's more cause for worry about infractions for all the people who dare to be rude for the sake of proving a point, or who post in SYM to defy a mod or a ruling when there isn't any other clear recourse. PJ would very probably never have been banned if KCW hadn't been banned, and KCW never would have been banned if TFE hadn't been banned. There's a logical progression there that doesn't have any clear ending. Will it end with you?
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That is quite a mighty if.
I didn't see the banning of PJ as a 'tightening up'.
He knew he was being a massive troll, and so he was was treated as such.
I do see what you are trying to say, and believe me, that is something I have been trying to prevent and push away since the KCW and BB bannings. I do not want things to get more strict in the least.
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I can sort of understand what you're saying. Sometimes bannings appear to be related. Like when Mortal Wombat got banned for being a jerk and then a few weeks later sleeping Villain(his fights with MORT are the stuff of legend) got banned. Both of these guys were...inflammatory and were walking the knifes edge for a long while. I thought that when they were banned that there might be some sort of purge going on but it was just a coincidence.
Dr tom: I agree This has turned out to definitivly be one of the more constructive threads.
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With that said, I would appreciate the opportunity for public input on the selection of the third admin. My suggestion for this, is when it is narrowed down, the current admins put out who is being considered. Then, instead of starting a massive drama thread, any concerns be pm'ed to either admin or both.
That way your voice gets heard, concerns with a new admin get addressed and a massive drama fest is avoided.
It seems the biggest barrier right now to coming up with a solid candidate for administrator is experience. There are people who demonstrate leadership skills, understanding of the rules, sensitivity to the MTGS community, good communication style . . . but most of these people either aren't mods, haven't been mods for long, or only moderate esoteric forums.
I suggest that this does mean that the criteria need being relaxed a little bit. As of now, all of the global moderators are recently appointed persons (except votan, who's activity level has decreased). None of the moderators that have been vocally nominated more than once are global moderators. As such, if a seasoned global mod can't be found, then we really can't ask for it.
As for {mikeyG}, I don't think he'd be a bad choice. He moderates the forums that are the most "community-oriented" at the moment, with the exception of Clans. He manages sometimes difficult decisions and priorities, with a fairly low threshold for error. About his criticisms . . .
The sexual talk among the Gaymers is almost always either respectfully and responsibly discussed, or subtle enough to be no worse than what you'd see on evening television. Admittedly, people do sometimes make edgy comments, though I've usually seen these noted and admonished against.
It's likely that Mikey saw it and didn't see it as his place to take official action. He may well have advised him to change the signature (which he has).
I don't think it's right at all to say that these opinions are simulataneously unfounded and founded enough.
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Just looking at the first page of the current Gaymer's thread, there are multiple examples of statements that would receive instant warnings in any other Clan thread.
As for blue's previously inappropriate signature. When you are a Moderator, it is always your job to take action against circumstances like this. If he didn't feel comfortable saying something himself, it logically follows that he should have brought it ti someone else's attention. I know that this was not the case, because Lesurgo knew nothing of it when I brought it to his attention. This action on the part of MikeyG follows a pattern of bias that I have witnessed. Content that would often result in warnings in other clan threads but goes unchecked in Gaymers is more of the same. In The Called, and in other clan threads that I have seen, people police themselves. But in Gaymers, everyone just says whatever they want, no matter how inappropriate. Considering that the Clan has multiple active Mods, if they actually felt a sense of duty/obligation to the site, they would discourage such commentary. But they don't, because they lack the proper sensibility that is necessary in a quality staff member.
@Sneaky:
I disagree. In a situation such as this, someone needs to step up and, at the very least, indicate interest in the position. However, it is true that my position in this is slightly different than much of the rest of peoples. In my mind, another Admin is needed because the current Admins are both failing to do the job appropriately. Thus, the likelihood that they will be able to choose the correct candidate, only between themselves, with no one volunteering or nominating anyone else, is minimal in my mind. Most people just want a third admin to lessen the workload of the current two, so they might not suffer from the lack of confidence in the current Admins that I, and some others, do.