tl;dr:
What Rax did was legal but unethical. we should make an amendment to the BTA protocol that says names and addresses are hidden until the person is proven to be a ripper.
that seem fair for everyone?
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As a firm believer that lawyers serve an essential function in protecting a populace from governmental abuse...
...this thread has been a great example of why I hate lawyers - law students in particular.
It's a known phenomenon that when someone takes Abnormal Psyche courses, everyone they know suddenly becomes "textbook" examples of psychotic behavior. I would suggest that a similar phenomenon has affected Anarki.
Or, phrased another way, when you get handed a hammer, everything starts to resemble a nail.
I'm not aware that anyone involved in the issue asked for Anarki's legal opinion. He's stated, himself, several times that his legal advice is based on the fact that he's in law school preparing for the bar - which is not the same as being a lawyer. And he's similarly suggested that this case belongs before the Supreme Court.
He himself has suggested consulting fees in the range of $ 100 to $ 250 per hour. I wonder how long he's spent on his posts, and looking this information up?
...does anybody see what I'm trying to say, here?
Anarki, do you see what I'm trying to say, here?
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The earth-creature shows intelligence, turning our box over to expose the soft, fleshy underbelly.
Azerbaijan is strong in the Google-Fu. He is my hero!
As a firm believer that lawyers serve an essential function in protecting a populace from governmental abuse...
...this thread has been a great example of why I hate lawyers - law students in particular.
It's a known phenomenon that when someone takes Abnormal Psyche courses, everyone they know suddenly becomes "textbook" examples of psychotic behavior. I would suggest that a similar phenomenon has affected Anarki.
Or, phrased another way, when you get handed a hammer, everything starts to resemble a nail.
I'm not aware that anyone involved in the issue asked for Anarki's legal opinion. He's stated, himself, several times that his legal advice is based on the fact that he's in law school preparing for the bar - which is not the same as being a lawyer. And he's similarly suggested that this case belongs before the Supreme Court.
He himself has suggested consulting fees in the range of $ 100 to $ 250 per hour. I wonder how long he's spent on his posts, and looking this information up?
...does anybody see what I'm trying to say, here?
Anarki, do you see what I'm trying to say, here?
Ummm... well, my only real response is to say you completely misread quite a few things.
I never suggested the case belongs in the Supreme Court, and my only mention of that body was as a sarcastic/frustrated response to a Seds post.
Second, if you read my bit on consulting fees, you'll see I find such fees absolutely absurd.
Please do me a favor and read my posts before jumping to such conclusions next time, ok?
On a similar note to kijins but much more relevant to why addresses should be posted for people with BTLS.
Take Jeremy Shaw(state_of_oblivion), He is a known ripper now across all the major boards including pojo, MOTL, mtg.com, and MTGS.... Guess what he ripped people all at the same time across multiple sites... Easiest way to make sure it was the same person was by addresses. In fact the only way to cross reference BTL cases is by addresses.
Way to go. The reason addresses have ALWAYS been posted on ongoing BTL threads is so that when someone is setting up a trade with someone they can check and make sure that the person they are trading with isn't currently having problems with another trade.
It seems that you never addressed Kijin's post about how your little arguement for the sake of arguing is going to affect hundreds of online traders. But you don't care....as long as you were given the chance to rant about a bunch of useless crap and quote irrelevant laws about this process.
If I'm wary about a guy offering just a little too good of a deal to me for some cards, I want the freedom to make sure that the address he gives me doesn't come up on any of the BTL/Bad Trade Resolution threads before I send off to the guy....but guess what....I can't now.
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Ummm... well, my only real response is to say you completely misread quite a few things.
I never suggested the case belongs in the Supreme Court, and my only mention of that body was as a sarcastic/frustrated response to a Seds post.
Second, if you read my bit on consulting fees, you'll see I find such fees absolutely absurd.
Please do me a favor and read my posts before jumping to such conclusions next time, ok?
I'll take that as a no. You're arguing the *specifics* while failing to answer the body of my post - a similar accusation that you make to me, interestingly enough.
You do realize that free advice is worth every penny?
And that there are words for people who offer their opinion unrequested? And that many of those words cannot be posted to a public board such as this?
Ask yourself why you got involved, and who's rights, really, you're protecting.
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The earth-creature shows intelligence, turning our box over to expose the soft, fleshy underbelly.
Azerbaijan is strong in the Google-Fu. He is my hero!
As far as I'm concerned, and this argument has been a very amusing one, when you post on the trade forums and agree to post your address, doesn't it make it a moot point? After all, how did we find out this address unless tc13 posted it? In which case, as soon as he posted it, or even sent it in a PM, he let it out, and it's fair game. As for Annorax refusing to remove it--that's just the rules of the forum. Don't like it, GTFO, I guess. It's all about something called trust.
And as far as someone taking the name and address and sending it to a million advertising companies.. that would be more inappropriate and immature to do than anything else.
Forgive me if I haven't followed everything going on here.
I'm not gonna be checking on this thread again, so go ahead and reply, but those are my 2 cents and I've got nothing else to say.
It seems like everyone's just arguing for the sake of arguing. But really, this is just an issue between urweak, annorax, tp13. No need for anyone else to get involved here.
As long as the Have/Want forums are hidden from non-members, posting addresses in a subforum called trade dispute/resolution is okay with me. But imo, Annorax should just remove the address just because tp13 has 22 successful trades under his belt and he's never been accused a ripping before. Give him the benefit of the doubt says I. If the cards don't show up in a month, then tp is probably a ripper.
It seems like everyone's just arguing for the sake of arguing. But really, this is just an issue between urweak, annorax, tp13. No need for anyone else to get involved here.
As long as the Have/Want forums are hidden from non-members, posting addresses in a subforum called trade dispute/resolution is okay with me. But imo, Annorax should just remove the address just because tp13 has 22 successful trades under his belt and he's never been accused a ripping before. Give him the benefit of the doubt says I. If the cards don't show up in a month, then tp is probably a ripper.
Jayc had over a hundred as did adrian... would hate to make people think we are showing favoritism...
Regardless the addresses are posted to protect other members. Its perfectly fair to remove URweaks addy since he inst the one on trial but the exact opposite. Also annorax hasn't been threatening but the simple fact is the addy will stay up until the trade is resolved... case closed.
How is it unethical to protect the greater number of traders on the forum not ripping people off from the few who have, in some way, aroused suspicion of their character and very well may have ripped other users off? Posters ITT seem to continually toot the horn that people's personal space is being violated when these same people either have stolen or are being accused of having stolen cards that can get into tens of hundreds of dollars in value from other users.
I also find it interesting that people defending anarki's position (including anarki himself) routinely have either 0 or less than 10 iTrader feedback (I believe the highest in support of anarki's stance was 6, with one or two other users having I believe 1 point of feedback). Meanwhile, a gross majority of the people supporting the use of a "Blacklist" are people who ACTUALLY USE the iTrader system and do business on the forums, a good number of which have 40+ positive feedback.
While it's great that a good number of you have opinions about something you are neither well versed in nor routinely participate in actively, I feel this discussion would be better served with input purely from users who are active in the trading/sale/auction forums, as all effects of decisions involving such would only effect them (emphasis mine).
from some of the responses here from the mod's. most of which would have earned someone a warning at least. you guys sure don't follow your own rules that well.
*waits for the warning to hit even though this is the speak your mind forum*
Where did that one even come from? What rules are moderators flagrantly beating around that were clearly abusing our power left and right and making civilized discourse impossible on these forums? I just said you're demanding the staff do something one of the administrators did nearly an hour before you posted.
*waits for the warning to hit even though this is the speak your mind forum*
That's just it, though. You're FREE to "Speak Your mind" here. There should be few, if any, warnings given for what's posted here.
But anyways, I got off topic, just had to reply.
While I've said my peace on the part about things being legal doesn't mean they're always RIGHT, I haven't actually said anything about the initial topic. So here it is:
Personally, I feel full addresses shouldn't be posted UNTIL the person is CONFIRMED to be a ripper. I think it does HELP to ensure that nobody else is ripped off in case they do later turn out to be one, but, for the time being, until such proof is provided, I would think that name, state/province and zip code should suffice. While it may still be essentially the same; since if someone were going to go searching for them, they could find them easy enough; it's still the principle of the situation.
Say you just lost a playset of Utd. Volcanic Islands (MOTL ~$160) to mtgtradzor_116 because he failed to send his end. It turns out his address was posted on MOTL and he was banned and blacklisted as a scammer, but he asked to have it taken down. Because we're in a parallel dimension where this discussion is legal fact, you couldn't cross-reference this known scammer and are not only out $160 worth of cards, but now he's free to generally use the same address to scam other users because they cannot reference him either once he's banned, registers a new account and picks up trading where he left off.
That makes sence, however, I was refering to this case, where the member is yet to be demed gulty
Say you just lost a playset of Utd. Volcanic Islands (MOTL ~$160) to mtgtradzor_116 because he failed to send his end. It turns out his address was posted on MOTL and he was banned and blacklisted as a scammer, but he asked to have it taken down. Because we're in a parallel dimension where this discussion is legal fact, you couldn't cross-reference this known scammer and are not only out $160 worth of cards, but now he's free to generally use the same address to scam other users because they cannot reference him either once he's banned, registers a new account and picks up trading where he left off.
Sure, and we should all sit back and turn a blind eye while the government continually erases our civil rights, all in the name of the 'War on Terror'.
Seriously, if the best argument that you can come up with is complete, 100% fearmongering, then just stop. It's an insult to everyone that reads it.
Sure, and we should all sit back and turn a blind eye while the government continually erases our civil rights, all in the name of the 'War on Terror'.
Seriously, if the best argument that you can come up with is complete, 100% fearmongering, then just stop. It's an insult to everyone that reads it.
Did you just compare trading card game cards over the internet to the Patriot Act and 9/11?
edit: I came up w/ an example using a bunch of random names and examples because I didn't want to single anyone out. If you want, you can just look at users like Lance and JayC who've been banned for stealing metric-craptons of cards from people as the most extreme and notorious counts. Or just go into any of the trade forums here or elsewhere online where you'll see the exact same. Or, you know, actually view the forum you're talking about. Also, I'm not asking to erase or add anything, I'm asking to keep things the same. I mean, your analogy was poor to begin with, but that's where it sort of drifts off into the void.
Top 16 - 2012 Indiana State Championships Currently Playing: GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
I have added a rule to the Bad Trading Report subforum rules thread here that addresses the needs brought to light in this thread. I'd welcome feedback on it, either via PM or my helpdesk.
What Rax did was legal but unethical. we should make an amendment to the BTA protocol that says names and addresses are hidden until the person is proven to be a ripper.
that seem fair for everyone?
Currently Playing:
GBStandard - Golgari Safari MidrangeBG
RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
Clan Contest 3 Mafia - Mafia Co-MVP
As a firm believer that lawyers serve an essential function in protecting a populace from governmental abuse...
...this thread has been a great example of why I hate lawyers - law students in particular.
It's a known phenomenon that when someone takes Abnormal Psyche courses, everyone they know suddenly becomes "textbook" examples of psychotic behavior. I would suggest that a similar phenomenon has affected Anarki.
Or, phrased another way, when you get handed a hammer, everything starts to resemble a nail.
I'm not aware that anyone involved in the issue asked for Anarki's legal opinion. He's stated, himself, several times that his legal advice is based on the fact that he's in law school preparing for the bar - which is not the same as being a lawyer. And he's similarly suggested that this case belongs before the Supreme Court.
He himself has suggested consulting fees in the range of $ 100 to $ 250 per hour. I wonder how long he's spent on his posts, and looking this information up?
...does anybody see what I'm trying to say, here?
Anarki, do you see what I'm trying to say, here?
Azerbaijan is strong in the Google-Fu. He is my hero!
Ummm... well, my only real response is to say you completely misread quite a few things.
I never suggested the case belongs in the Supreme Court, and my only mention of that body was as a sarcastic/frustrated response to a Seds post.
Second, if you read my bit on consulting fees, you'll see I find such fees absolutely absurd.
Please do me a favor and read my posts before jumping to such conclusions next time, ok?
Take Jeremy Shaw(state_of_oblivion), He is a known ripper now across all the major boards including pojo, MOTL, mtg.com, and MTGS.... Guess what he ripped people all at the same time across multiple sites... Easiest way to make sure it was the same person was by addresses. In fact the only way to cross reference BTL cases is by addresses.
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
Way to go. The reason addresses have ALWAYS been posted on ongoing BTL threads is so that when someone is setting up a trade with someone they can check and make sure that the person they are trading with isn't currently having problems with another trade.
It seems that you never addressed Kijin's post about how your little arguement for the sake of arguing is going to affect hundreds of online traders. But you don't care....as long as you were given the chance to rant about a bunch of useless crap and quote irrelevant laws about this process.
If I'm wary about a guy offering just a little too good of a deal to me for some cards, I want the freedom to make sure that the address he gives me doesn't come up on any of the BTL/Bad Trade Resolution threads before I send off to the guy....but guess what....I can't now.
I'll take that as a no. You're arguing the *specifics* while failing to answer the body of my post - a similar accusation that you make to me, interestingly enough.
You do realize that free advice is worth every penny?
And that there are words for people who offer their opinion unrequested? And that many of those words cannot be posted to a public board such as this?
Ask yourself why you got involved, and who's rights, really, you're protecting.
Azerbaijan is strong in the Google-Fu. He is my hero!
And as far as someone taking the name and address and sending it to a million advertising companies.. that would be more inappropriate and immature to do than anything else.
Forgive me if I haven't followed everything going on here.
I'm not gonna be checking on this thread again, so go ahead and reply, but those are my 2 cents and I've got nothing else to say.
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As long as the Have/Want forums are hidden from non-members, posting addresses in a subforum called trade dispute/resolution is okay with me. But imo, Annorax should just remove the address just because tp13 has 22 successful trades under his belt and he's never been accused a ripping before. Give him the benefit of the doubt says I. If the cards don't show up in a month, then tp is probably a ripper.
Jayc had over a hundred as did adrian... would hate to make people think we are showing favoritism...
Regardless the addresses are posted to protect other members. Its perfectly fair to remove URweaks addy since he inst the one on trial but the exact opposite. Also annorax hasn't been threatening but the simple fact is the addy will stay up until the trade is resolved... case closed.
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
How is it unethical to protect the greater number of traders on the forum not ripping people off from the few who have, in some way, aroused suspicion of their character and very well may have ripped other users off? Posters ITT seem to continually toot the horn that people's personal space is being violated when these same people either have stolen or are being accused of having stolen cards that can get into tens of hundreds of dollars in value from other users.
I also find it interesting that people defending anarki's position (including anarki himself) routinely have either 0 or less than 10 iTrader feedback (I believe the highest in support of anarki's stance was 6, with one or two other users having I believe 1 point of feedback). Meanwhile, a gross majority of the people supporting the use of a "Blacklist" are people who ACTUALLY USE the iTrader system and do business on the forums, a good number of which have 40+ positive feedback.
While it's great that a good number of you have opinions about something you are neither well versed in nor routinely participate in actively, I feel this discussion would be better served with input purely from users who are active in the trading/sale/auction forums, as all effects of decisions involving such would only effect them (emphasis mine).
Where did that one even come from? What rules are moderators flagrantly beating around that were clearly abusing our power left and right and making civilized discourse impossible on these forums? I just said you're demanding the staff do something one of the administrators did nearly an hour before you posted.
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That's just it, though. You're FREE to "Speak Your mind" here. There should be few, if any, warnings given for what's posted here.
But anyways, I got off topic, just had to reply.
While I've said my peace on the part about things being legal doesn't mean they're always RIGHT, I haven't actually said anything about the initial topic. So here it is:
Personally, I feel full addresses shouldn't be posted UNTIL the person is CONFIRMED to be a ripper. I think it does HELP to ensure that nobody else is ripped off in case they do later turn out to be one, but, for the time being, until such proof is provided, I would think that name, state/province and zip code should suffice. While it may still be essentially the same; since if someone were going to go searching for them, they could find them easy enough; it's still the principle of the situation.
That makes sence, however, I was refering to this case, where the member is yet to be demed gulty
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Good times.
Sure, and we should all sit back and turn a blind eye while the government continually erases our civil rights, all in the name of the 'War on Terror'.
Seriously, if the best argument that you can come up with is complete, 100% fearmongering, then just stop. It's an insult to everyone that reads it.
Did you just compare trading card game cards over the internet to the Patriot Act and 9/11?
edit: I came up w/ an example using a bunch of random names and examples because I didn't want to single anyone out. If you want, you can just look at users like Lance and JayC who've been banned for stealing metric-craptons of cards from people as the most extreme and notorious counts. Or just go into any of the trade forums here or elsewhere online where you'll see the exact same. Or, you know, actually view the forum you're talking about. Also, I'm not asking to erase or add anything, I'm asking to keep things the same. I mean, your analogy was poor to begin with, but that's where it sort of drifts off into the void.
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thread over.
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RBWModern - Mardu PyromancerWBR
RLegacy - Good Old Fashioned BurnR
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And with that, issue resolved, thread closed.
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