Ok, I mean really, is that rule necessary.
Now, I know why it exists. Clearly you need to look at a card before you can make a ruling about it. But, come on, we are on the INTERNET, we have all of that information at our finger tips. We can easily get the image of the card, and probably the FAQ about it to, which is something you should be doing anyway before you answer a question.
I would bet my luckily penny that 80% of the warnings received on this site is do to failure to use card tags.
The first poster on a question without tags puts them up anyway.
I know that its more convent for the people answering the question if the card tags are right there, but if they do not have the extra 30 seconds it takes to find the image of the card, they could just not answer. I bet my luckily nickel they would only have to wait 30 more seconds before someone else puts up card tags, and answers the question.
This rule is the one most commonly broken by first timers, makes the site seem unfriendly if your first post gets you a warning, and it's unnecessary in my eyes. This poor n00b just got suspended because of it: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=113932
and its not like his question was unanswerable just because he forgot card tags. (yes I know he forgot them 5 times, but still, the rule he broke should not exist, IMO)
Your thoughts.
I agree that anyone that breaks a rule 5 times should be suspended. That is not the issue. I feel the rule itself is unnecessary. If the OP is too lazy or n00bish to put up card tags, then they will just have to wait for a non-lazy person to get the card images.(and that will make it talk longer to get an answer) Should they get a warning for just being lazy? A rule should be followed because its a rule, and if you break the rule you should get in trouble. I am not talking about that.
I am just saying I think the rule itself is unnecessary. I bet its harder to warn all of those people and send out PM's then it would be just to let the OP put up card tags (I could be wrong about that, however)
The real "do we what them here" rule should be the grammar and l33t speak rule. Its not like each subforum has its own "test" rule. If you want a "test to see if you belong here" rule, it should be a main rule, not a subforum only rule.
The various [tag] rules (card, deck and spoiler depending on the area of the site) are all about common courtesy and paying a small respect to your fellow forum-goers. Asking for ruling help? The least you can do is provide the cards you're asking about. Want deck advice? Not too much to ask to format your deck so that it's easier to analyze. Saw a great new movie? Not ruining it for others who may be excited to see it is a nice thing to do. You're right, Soron, in that these rules aren't strictly necessary for the site to run, they're there mostly to encourage everyone to be on the same page as far as courtesy goes. But the staff feels that we ought to be strongly encouraging a certain standard of behaviour on the site, up to an including issuing penalties to users who fall below the standard. It's the same for things like spelling/grammar, use of offensive language, the posting of inappropriate things, etc.
And you're right, the tags are extremely easy to use properly, which is why it shouldn't be such a big deal to be required to use them. I'm not seeing why this is an issue.
As an aside, the only tag rule that seems to be an issue is the card tags. I haven't issued so much as a warning for violation of Entertainment's spoiler policy in months, if anything the problem has become overuse of the tags when it's no longer necessary (and as far as problems go, that's much preferable to the alternative). And Deck Tag infractions seem rather rare to me as well. I find that odd.
I think that's because you get more n00bs asking basic questions about the game then you do having them post deck lists.
I am a little sad that it seems many many people on his forum seem to not like outsiders. The fact that people think this rule should exist just to weed out people is silly. If you want to make stupid rules just to make sure people are reading the rules forum why not have green text tuesday or something? You could change the color of the tuesday text each week, so people would have to read the rules forums at lest once a week.
That would be a better test if you really do not like people that do not read the rules forum that much.
In my mind, rules should not exist just to scare people away. But this is not my forum, so maybe the people that do run things feel they should. In that case:
I recommend that each post needs to be in WUBRG order. That way if you do not know the rules, you will be kicked out very quickly. Easy. Also, the patter would be hard to figure out, so if would make sure you REALLY did read the forum rules, and were not just winging it.
I think that's because you get more n00bs asking basic questions about the game then you do having them post deck lists.
Probably.
I am a little sad that it seems many many people on his forum seem to not like out sides.
That would be a better test if you really do not like n00bs that much.
This isn't the first time you've voiced this opinion and it never stops being off the mark.
The site (in terms of what the staff looks for at the very least) has a great appreciation for new posters. New posters are the primary source of new opinions and new opinions are greatly valued in every single area of the site (except maybe Market Place, but even there new people means more potential traders and such). An angle on a debate that hasn't been considered, speculation on a new set that wasn't brought up, new design space ideas for custom cards and sets, a new friend for a clan, fresh artwork, new perspectives for potentially any topic. New posters are vital.
What the site does not appreciate (and as I've tried to explain to you before) is the sort of user that doesn't follow the rules, both new and old.
The fact that people think this rule should exist jus to weed out people is silly.
Who actually thinks that? I can tell you know that the rules doesn't exist for that reason.
If you want to make stupid rules just to make sure people are reading the rules forum why not have green text tuesday or something? You could change the color of the tuesday text each week, so people would have to read the rules forums at lest once a week.
In my mind, rules should not exist just to scare people away. But this is not my forum, so maybe the people that do run things feel they should.
No.
In that case:
I recommend that each post needs to be in WUBRG order. That way if you do not know the rules, you will be kicked out very quickly. Easy. Also, the patter would be hard to figure out, so if would make sure you REALLY did read the forum rules, and were not just winging it.
I agree that anyone that breaks a rule 5 times should be suspended.
So why are you complaining? He was suspended for repeatedly failing to follow the rules and ignoring requests to improve.
The rule is not to "weed out n00bs." It's a courtesy to the people who are spending their time helping other posters, unlike your "hur use special colors" rule. You can complain all you like about it being some evil plot to weed out people who don't read the rules, but it's not going to change and I doubt many people think that paranoidly (I just made up a new word). Double-posting is the same way, as well as thread necromancy. And as I've said before: what kind of idiot just starts posting on ANY forum without reading the rules or code of conduct anyway?
Repeated failure to follow the rules - card tags, flaming, spamming, any rule - doesn't weed out n00bs, it weeds out people who can't follow the rules even when told "um, we have a rule about that."
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
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DCI Level 3 Judge & TO "I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
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Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
All right. Clearly my last post was out of line. I guess I am just upset because two of my good friends feel, wrongly or not, that they were chased off of this forum in the last 2 months(not about card tags). I guess that it kind of made me feel some resentment to the harsh attitude some people have here. This line was what I was reacting to:
This kind of statement is beginning to hit me harder since my two friends voiced their displeasure about this site, which I, my self, love.
Any how. I have always felt like the tags rules were unfair, for the above reasons. And THAT is what we(and my self) should be talking about. I am sorry for straying off topic, more because it hurt the points I made in my OP, than for any other reason.
I mean look. Even if you read the forum rules, you will still not know how to use card tags. You have to follow the link to that super-duper long(and well written) document that Sneaky made. I mean, really, how many pages should you have to read before your allowed to ask a question?
The time it would take you to look at and read all of the documents your required to before making one post, you could probably just answer your own question by looking it up on the wizard's site.
You would need to read: 3 pages here. 1-2 pages here. And about 5 pages of basic programing here. (well alright, its the first example, but still. Technical writing can be intimidating, even the most basic)
Seems like a bit much, if you ask me. And if the person does not know how to search wizards own site to find the answer to their question, chances are they would not know how to search this one for all of the documents they need to read before they can ask their question.
I mean, really, how many pages should you have to read before your allowed to ask a question? And about 5 pages of basic programing here.
Seems like a bit much, if you ask me.
Try not to exaggerate considering the explanation for Card Tags (and thus what you'd need to know to ask a question in Rulings) is about a paragraph. And the Official Forum Rules is required reading to register, and clearly important to read regardless.
I honestly can't believe someone is making the argument that we require too much reading.
I honestly can't believe someone is making the argument that we require too much reading.
Yeah, I changed my post right as you posted.
Most people that hang out at that pat of the forums are HAPPY to show off their magic knowledge. I am guessing MOST do not mind if they have to type the name of the card into gatherer.
Look. The card tags are not even updated properly. Look at the card tags Aladdin, now look at the oracle text, Aladdin. If someone asked a question about aladdin, the card tags would most likely be useless anyway. Before you answer a question about a card, you should look up the oracle text.
The card tags are not even useful, in some causes. Your giving people warning that are asking SUPER BASIC questions, (since most people that do not use card tags are beginners). Yes, you need to see the card before you answer a question, but you would want to look at the oracle text anyway. If the question is simple enough that you would not need the oracle text than chances are you could just answer it without the tags anyway (or take the time to look up the card image)
Givene the fact that "You must use cardtags" is part of the title of a sticky in that forum, I don't think it should be that hard for people to figure it out and do it. Llanowar Elves I spent more time think of how to spell Llanowar than I did tagging it. It's not a big deal.
Any how. I have always felt like the tags rules were unfair, for the above reasons.
Unfair as you, or those that have been warned/infracted, may think this rule is, or other rules are, it's not as if one warning gets you perma-banned from the site for eternity with no chance of parole and people looking for your mules like you're carrying the plague. Yes, a lot of people new to the site make the mistake of not using card tags in the rulings forum, but two things follow from that. First, as has been stated, there are explicit instructions at the top of the page that you MUST use cardtags (though, I thought it was a bit innocuous when I first joined), and there are instructions on how. Your link to the five pages of reading has nifty links that drag you right to what you need to read. So you don't have to sift through mana tags and deck tags and the super-duper things you can do with card tags, you can just read the basics on card tags.
Second, when someone receives the scary mod text on one of their posts, if I recall, they are informed. Even if it is just a warning, they are told they messed up in a private message. Unless they just completely ignore all private messages, even from mods, then they can see that, oh, they made a minor mistake, got a slap on the wrist, and they can fix it next time. If they don't know how to tag, they can ask the moderator that PMed them.
I'm not sure on how informing people of their warnings and infractions work, but if it's more personal than the automated message of reporting a post, informing someone of how to include tags or fix their mistake seems like a good idea.
Or look for the answer so they don't do it again.
And a single warning--Hell, even a single infraction--does not earn banning. And you get an infraction, which I know you are informed of in a PM, before you get banned, so you WILL know you did something wrong before you get banned or suspended. I've had it happen to me (for accidental flaming), and I decided to smarten up a bit and watch what I say a little closer. Easily fixable.
On top of all that, the infractions of which you are speaking are not bannable offenses until they are repeated so many times that it is clear they are merely trying to antagonize the mods and users. When you get suspended, it would be next to impossible not to know it. And if you can't learn to follow the rules from a suspension... well, you probably don't have the intelligence to handle an online forum and banning is right up your alley.
Yeah, cardtags are simple, and the most oft warned are the new users, but they aren't so confusing or terrible that the rule should be done with. Nor is the punishment for failing to follow the rule that terrible, as long as you can learn to fix the mistake. No one is getting angry at people that forget cardtags. They are there for the convenience of those that want to help the one asking the question.
All that said, yeah, I never noticed some of the high discrepancies between Gatherer and magiccards.info. Though, if you want to make sure you never get thrown off, you can switch all tags you click to go automatically to Gatherer. Your thread does illustrate well how these mistakes can be made, and that is probably the most important point brought up here. -Jack
P.S. - Sorry, that dragged on a bit more than I expected it to.
There is one good point made here: magiccards.info is not current (and this isn't a recent problem).
But in all honesty, I have not seen a mod become nasty with someone on their first warning. "Read the rules. You need card tags. Warning." does not seem offensive or tyrannical to me.
I just found the explanation for card tags in literally five seconds by clicking on the thread at the top of the Rulings subforum. Any person who has been warned in that forum has no reason to commit the same mistake. And if it happens in a forum without this super-easy thread? Ask. If you actually give a crap about participating, you will ask. If you choose not to ask, then you deserve the infractions, and obviously have no respect for the site or for the other users.
For those of you without mod powers, I have never gotten a warning for not using tags, I have just felt it was an unnecessary rule, that only seems to result in people getting a warning for their first post.
Which is VERY intimidating. (and as far as I can tell, is not really that helpful when making rules anyway)
Regardless how nicely its given, a warning IS intimidating. (I know it is for me anyway, my face goes red every time)
Edit: People still have not gotten my question over in rulings 100% right yet. I do not know if its the tags fault or not, but I am sure that they are not helping.
Regardless how nicely its given, a warning IS intimidating. (I know it is for me anyway, my face goes red every time)
Yet, text like this is used on many forums. It is used for the purpose of being intimidating. How else can you get a point across? Text like this would not get the point across nearly as well. The text is used (and enforced as not usable by anyone else) for the purpose of making sure you know when a mod is talking. It shows up well on all the backgrounds (BLACK DOES NOT SHOW UP WELL ON BLACK!), and it is highly noticeable. I don't see a problem with the font, it does what it is meant to do.
Also, everyone's "red face" is how they learn. You're embarrassed and you know you made a mistake. So you don't do it again. -Jack
Okay. This is the first time I hear about this.
Honestly, I don't mean to usurp authority, but this is ridiculous! I mean, which new poster is going to know right off the bat to do that? Heck, many of them don't even know what card tags are and how to use them! Sure, it's made easier (on gleemax, you really have to wait for someone to teach you) here, but still... that's just sick. :confused2::no:
Also, I feel that the deck tag rule is perhaps even worse. I mean, after reading a set of rules for the forum that's a few pages long in fine print, you go to a very typical forum part that every forum either has or should have, and you don't expect to have to read another set of guidelines. You just start posting... and whoops, no deck tags, warning for you!
Seriously, this is wrong.
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Okay. This is the first time I hear about this.
Honestly, I don't mean to usurp authority, but this is ridiculous! I mean, which new poster is going to know right off the bat to do that?
The ones that read the rules ..... ?
Heck, many of them don't even know what card tags are and how to use them!
They would if they'd read the rules where, conveniently enough, the html for the required tags is explained. Go figure that we'd make sure to post easy-to-understand instructions to go along with tags that the rules necessitate the use of.
Card tags provide a convenience not only to the question answerer, but also to others who might be curious just to read the question and answer without contributing. A warning is completely meaningless and users only get infractions after repeated refusals to use card tags. This is a good rule.
All it takes is one click and drag to select the card, one click to tag it, and you have made everyone's day a lot easier, by about ten clicks or so for each person reading. Its kinda selfish, if you think about it, not tagging your cards.
Again. If only mods and/or rules gurus answered the questions, I would agree with you.
But the fact is that at any given time at the rules section there are 5-10 people inching to answer questions.(and put up tags for the other readers) If one of those people do not want to go through the steps to check, someone else will.
Edit:If I felt like getting a warning/infraction for no reason I would ask a question and see how long it takes for card tags to appear. I guess I could just wait for someone else to do it. I am guessing the average time is 3 minutes. This would make an interesting lab experiment. I am guessing its depended on the time of day. I wonder what the standard deviation is. Oh, I could just go back and look at the ones that got warnings and see how long it took for the first post to be posted. The site already does all that time recording for me. Edit II:
Ok, looking at the last 55 posts for my random sampling. 4 were warnings (no two the same person) The average time for someone to answer those 4 questions was 4.75 minutes. 3, 3, 4 and 9. This also means, that 7% of those 55 posts were warnings. This seems like a high %, if given more time I could see how many extra minutes (if any) it takes a non-tagged question to be answered, when compared to a tagged one. I would also be interested to see if that 7% is an correct number for that part of the forums in general.
I think this is making a lot out of nothing. Yes, people get warnings for cardtags, but a warning isn't all that harsh. It's just enough to get you to not screw it up the next time. In fact, that puts it right on par with a warning in a Magic tournament, which is something with which I'm sure we're all familiar. If a new user forgets tags, then he gets a little slap on the wrist, but he remembers it next time because he doesn't want it upgraded.
If it was a real offense, the mods would just skip the warning, but they don't. As you've pointed out, it takes a whole lot of repeated violations before anything actually comes of the warnings. Basically, it just allows for people to be reminded of proper forum courtesy even if they hadn't read the rules.
And I do believe cardtags are very important in this forum. Not because I can't look them up when trying to make a ruling, but because plenty of people would rather just try to rule from memory than to take the time to look it up. That leads to wrong rulings which add confusion to the thread as it is corrected (especially when people don't always read far enough to see the corrections).
I will note that card-tags were invaluable in finding out what your illegal play was; most players and judges do not have Oracle wording memorized on every card.
The card-tag rule is a good one, and a rule that I myself would prefer to stay.
Warnings are just that- they are an official note that you have done something that does not follow the rules. They are not a big deal unless you keep getting them for the same thing, in which case, just like at a tournament, your penalty will be upgraded accordingly.
And yes, no incantatrix for you. Or anyone. That class makes puppies cry. Mostly because they are the former Big Bads who have been Baleful Polymorphed into said puppies. By you. Because you're an incantatrix.
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...Something tells me that even should all arcane casters in the world unite, that the Grease spell would NOT be sufficient.
And i'll defend my right to believe that. If people cannot obey sensible rules then they shouldn't be here.
Now if it's a silly rule, then rather than breaking it they should raise the issue in the manner you are doing. +respect for Soron.
Agreed. I may think some rules around here are silly, but the various tag requirements don't ever fall under that. I came here to discuss MTG cards and that's a heck of a lot easier when I can click a link and look at them. And I am the kind of person who memorizes the oracle wording of every card in Type 2, at least back when I played more regularly.
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To put it simply, women have to seek empowerment, whereas men have to live up to empowerment.
As some other user once said, and I paraphrase, "Dude, it's just a warning. I wouldn't care if I was framed for murder if I just got a warning"
warnings are just that; a little reminder of the rules. It's no big deal. The infractions are more for not following the rules than the problem of no card tags. It''s no big deal, and I don't see why you want to make it one.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
Now, I know why it exists. Clearly you need to look at a card before you can make a ruling about it. But, come on, we are on the INTERNET, we have all of that information at our finger tips. We can easily get the image of the card, and probably the FAQ about it to, which is something you should be doing anyway before you answer a question.
I would bet my luckily penny that 80% of the warnings received on this site is do to failure to use card tags.
The first poster on a question without tags puts them up anyway.
I know that its more convent for the people answering the question if the card tags are right there, but if they do not have the extra 30 seconds it takes to find the image of the card, they could just not answer. I bet my luckily nickel they would only have to wait 30 more seconds before someone else puts up card tags, and answers the question.
This rule is the one most commonly broken by first timers, makes the site seem unfriendly if your first post gets you a warning, and it's unnecessary in my eyes. This poor n00b just got suspended because of it:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=113932
and its not like his question was unanswerable just because he forgot card tags. (yes I know he forgot them 5 times, but still, the rule he broke should not exist, IMO)
Your thoughts.
I am just saying I think the rule itself is unnecessary. I bet its harder to warn all of those people and send out PM's then it would be just to let the OP put up card tags (I could be wrong about that, however)
The real "do we what them here" rule should be the grammar and l33t speak rule. Its not like each subforum has its own "test" rule. If you want a "test to see if you belong here" rule, it should be a main rule, not a subforum only rule.
And you're right, the tags are extremely easy to use properly, which is why it shouldn't be such a big deal to be required to use them. I'm not seeing why this is an issue.
As an aside, the only tag rule that seems to be an issue is the card tags. I haven't issued so much as a warning for violation of Entertainment's spoiler policy in months, if anything the problem has become overuse of the tags when it's no longer necessary (and as far as problems go, that's much preferable to the alternative). And Deck Tag infractions seem rather rare to me as well. I find that odd.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
I am a little sad that it seems many many people on his forum seem to not like outsiders. The fact that people think this rule should exist just to weed out people is silly. If you want to make stupid rules just to make sure people are reading the rules forum why not have green text tuesday or something? You could change the color of the tuesday text each week, so people would have to read the rules forums at lest once a week.
That would be a better test if you really do not like people that do not read the rules forum that much.
In my mind, rules should not exist just to scare people away. But this is not my forum, so maybe the people that do run things feel they should. In that case:
I recommend that each post needs to be in WUBRG order. That way if you do not know the rules, you will be kicked out very quickly. Easy. Also, the patter would be hard to figure out, so if would make sure you REALLY did read the forum rules, and were not just winging it.
Probably.
This isn't the first time you've voiced this opinion and it never stops being off the mark.
The site (in terms of what the staff looks for at the very least) has a great appreciation for new posters. New posters are the primary source of new opinions and new opinions are greatly valued in every single area of the site (except maybe Market Place, but even there new people means more potential traders and such). An angle on a debate that hasn't been considered, speculation on a new set that wasn't brought up, new design space ideas for custom cards and sets, a new friend for a clan, fresh artwork, new perspectives for potentially any topic. New posters are vital.
What the site does not appreciate (and as I've tried to explain to you before) is the sort of user that doesn't follow the rules, both new and old.
Who actually thinks that? I can tell you know that the rules doesn't exist for that reason.
No.
....... seriously???
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
So why are you complaining? He was suspended for repeatedly failing to follow the rules and ignoring requests to improve.
The rule is not to "weed out n00bs." It's a courtesy to the people who are spending their time helping other posters, unlike your "hur use special colors" rule. You can complain all you like about it being some evil plot to weed out people who don't read the rules, but it's not going to change and I doubt many people think that paranoidly (I just made up a new word). Double-posting is the same way, as well as thread necromancy. And as I've said before: what kind of idiot just starts posting on ANY forum without reading the rules or code of conduct anyway?
Repeated failure to follow the rules - card tags, flaming, spamming, any rule - doesn't weed out n00bs, it weeds out people who can't follow the rules even when told "um, we have a rule about that."
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO
"I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
This kind of statement is beginning to hit me harder since my two friends voiced their displeasure about this site, which I, my self, love.
Any how. I have always felt like the tags rules were unfair, for the above reasons. And THAT is what we(and my self) should be talking about. I am sorry for straying off topic, more because it hurt the points I made in my OP, than for any other reason.
The time it would take you to look at and read all of the documents your required to before making one post, you could probably just answer your own question by looking it up on the wizard's site.
You would need to read:
3 pages here.
1-2 pages here.
And about 5 pages of basic programing here. (well alright, its the first example, but still. Technical writing can be intimidating, even the most basic)
Seems like a bit much, if you ask me. And if the person does not know how to search wizards own site to find the answer to their question, chances are they would not know how to search this one for all of the documents they need to read before they can ask their question.
Try not to exaggerate considering the explanation for Card Tags (and thus what you'd need to know to ask a question in Rulings) is about a paragraph. And the Official Forum Rules is required reading to register, and clearly important to read regardless.
I honestly can't believe someone is making the argument that we require too much reading.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Yeah, I changed my post right as you posted.
Most people that hang out at that pat of the forums are HAPPY to show off their magic knowledge. I am guessing MOST do not mind if they have to type the name of the card into gatherer.
Look. The card tags are not even updated properly. Look at the card tags Aladdin, now look at the oracle text, Aladdin. If someone asked a question about aladdin, the card tags would most likely be useless anyway. Before you answer a question about a card, you should look up the oracle text.
The card tags are not even useful, in some causes. Your giving people warning that are asking SUPER BASIC questions, (since most people that do not use card tags are beginners). Yes, you need to see the card before you answer a question, but you would want to look at the oracle text anyway. If the question is simple enough that you would not need the oracle text than chances are you could just answer it without the tags anyway (or take the time to look up the card image)
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I hope this question will help demonstrate that:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=2794331#post2794331
Which is easily done by going to the "Edit Options" screen in your user control panel and changing the Card Tags option to "Gatherer."
Second, when someone receives the scary mod text on one of their posts, if I recall, they are informed. Even if it is just a warning, they are told they messed up in a private message. Unless they just completely ignore all private messages, even from mods, then they can see that, oh, they made a minor mistake, got a slap on the wrist, and they can fix it next time. If they don't know how to tag, they can ask the moderator that PMed them.
And a single warning--Hell, even a single infraction--does not earn banning. And you get an infraction, which I know you are informed of in a PM, before you get banned, so you WILL know you did something wrong before you get banned or suspended. I've had it happen to me (for accidental flaming), and I decided to smarten up a bit and watch what I say a little closer. Easily fixable.
On top of all that, the infractions of which you are speaking are not bannable offenses until they are repeated so many times that it is clear they are merely trying to antagonize the mods and users. When you get suspended, it would be next to impossible not to know it. And if you can't learn to follow the rules from a suspension... well, you probably don't have the intelligence to handle an online forum and banning is right up your alley.
Yeah, cardtags are simple, and the most oft warned are the new users, but they aren't so confusing or terrible that the rule should be done with. Nor is the punishment for failing to follow the rule that terrible, as long as you can learn to fix the mistake. No one is getting angry at people that forget cardtags. They are there for the convenience of those that want to help the one asking the question.
All that said, yeah, I never noticed some of the high discrepancies between Gatherer and magiccards.info. Though, if you want to make sure you never get thrown off, you can switch all tags you click to go automatically to Gatherer. Your thread does illustrate well how these mistakes can be made, and that is probably the most important point brought up here. -Jack
P.S. - Sorry, that dragged on a bit more than I expected it to.
Unfair as you, or those that have been warned/infracted, may think this rule is, or other rules are, it's not as if one warning gets you perma-banned from the site for eternity with no chance of parole and people looking for your mules like you're carrying the plague. Yes, a lot of people new to the site make the mistake of not using card tags in the rulings forum, but two things follow from that. First, as has been stated, there are explicit instructions at the top of the page that you MUST use cardtags (though, I thought it was a bit innocuous when I first joined), and there are instructions on how. Your link to the five pages of reading has nifty links that drag you right to what you need to read. So you don't have to sift through mana tags and deck tags and the super-duper things you can do with card tags, you can just read the basics on card tags.
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But in all honesty, I have not seen a mod become nasty with someone on their first warning. "Read the rules. You need card tags. Warning." does not seem offensive or tyrannical to me.
I just found the explanation for card tags in literally five seconds by clicking on the thread at the top of the Rulings subforum. Any person who has been warned in that forum has no reason to commit the same mistake. And if it happens in a forum without this super-easy thread? Ask. If you actually give a crap about participating, you will ask. If you choose not to ask, then you deserve the infractions, and obviously have no respect for the site or for the other users.
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Which is VERY intimidating. (and as far as I can tell, is not really that helpful when making rules anyway)
Regardless how nicely its given, a warning IS intimidating. (I know it is for me anyway, my face goes red every time)
Edit: People still have not gotten my question over in rulings 100% right yet. I do not know if its the tags fault or not, but I am sure that they are not helping.
Also, everyone's "red face" is how they learn. You're embarrassed and you know you made a mistake. So you don't do it again. -Jack Yet, text like this is used on many forums. It is used for the purpose of being intimidating. How else can you get a point across?
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Honestly, I don't mean to usurp authority, but this is ridiculous! I mean, which new poster is going to know right off the bat to do that? Heck, many of them don't even know what card tags are and how to use them! Sure, it's made easier (on gleemax, you really have to wait for someone to teach you) here, but still... that's just sick. :confused2::no:
Also, I feel that the deck tag rule is perhaps even worse. I mean, after reading a set of rules for the forum that's a few pages long in fine print, you go to a very typical forum part that every forum either has or should have, and you don't expect to have to read another set of guidelines. You just start posting... and whoops, no deck tags, warning for you!
Seriously, this is wrong.
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The ones that read the rules ..... ?
They would if they'd read the rules where, conveniently enough, the html for the required tags is explained. Go figure that we'd make sure to post easy-to-understand instructions to go along with tags that the rules necessitate the use of.
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Again. If only mods and/or rules gurus answered the questions, I would agree with you.
But the fact is that at any given time at the rules section there are 5-10 people inching to answer questions.(and put up tags for the other readers) If one of those people do not want to go through the steps to check, someone else will.
Edit:If I felt like getting a warning/infraction for no reason I would ask a question and see how long it takes for card tags to appear. I guess I could just wait for someone else to do it. I am guessing the average time is 3 minutes. This would make an interesting lab experiment. I am guessing its depended on the time of day. I wonder what the standard deviation is. Oh, I could just go back and look at the ones that got warnings and see how long it took for the first post to be posted. The site already does all that time recording for me.
Edit II:
Ok, looking at the last 55 posts for my random sampling. 4 were warnings (no two the same person) The average time for someone to answer those 4 questions was 4.75 minutes. 3, 3, 4 and 9. This also means, that 7% of those 55 posts were warnings. This seems like a high %, if given more time I could see how many extra minutes (if any) it takes a non-tagged question to be answered, when compared to a tagged one. I would also be interested to see if that 7% is an correct number for that part of the forums in general.
If it was a real offense, the mods would just skip the warning, but they don't. As you've pointed out, it takes a whole lot of repeated violations before anything actually comes of the warnings. Basically, it just allows for people to be reminded of proper forum courtesy even if they hadn't read the rules.
And I do believe cardtags are very important in this forum. Not because I can't look them up when trying to make a ruling, but because plenty of people would rather just try to rule from memory than to take the time to look it up. That leads to wrong rulings which add confusion to the thread as it is corrected (especially when people don't always read far enough to see the corrections).
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The card-tag rule is a good one, and a rule that I myself would prefer to stay.
Warnings are just that- they are an official note that you have done something that does not follow the rules. They are not a big deal unless you keep getting them for the same thing, in which case, just like at a tournament, your penalty will be upgraded accordingly.
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Agreed. I may think some rules around here are silly, but the various tag requirements don't ever fall under that. I came here to discuss MTG cards and that's a heck of a lot easier when I can click a link and look at them. And I am the kind of person who memorizes the oracle wording of every card in Type 2, at least back when I played more regularly.
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warnings are just that; a little reminder of the rules. It's no big deal. The infractions are more for not following the rules than the problem of no card tags. It''s no big deal, and I don't see why you want to make it one.
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