Soron, I think you are utilizing such definitions out of context. For example, a real argumentum ad hominem would be pointing out that this beautifuly crafted, wikipedia-researched and well-though argument of yours would be more fitting in a serious discussion in the philosophy subforum, rather than in a SYM thread about a MTGS subforum.
You have know idea what that fallacy is do you? Because about every post YOU make is one as well. I would explain it to you, but since you did not even take the time to click the link, I do not think you would take the time to read my explanation. Heck, this could be tl for you.
BUT:
I guess your right, well thought out and logical debates have no place on SYM. You got me. The more valued an argument, the less valued it is. Flawless victory for you.
Also, I can give you some 1337 tech advice. There is an easier way to leave the Gutter:
I did not know that, I will admit it, but I will also admit my way was more fun.
Everything I have said he can be backed up by facts. I even sent {mikeyg} a PM thanking him for Gbanning me, twice. And I have not reapplied with ANY account.
If anyone really cared about anything they could check my facts/logs, but they do not. Its much easier to say: "Soron go kicked off, therefor everything he says must be crap. QED." Without looking at any of the facts.
You have know idea what that fallacy is do you? Because about every post YOU make is one as well. I would explain it to you, but since you did not even take the time to click the link, I do not think you would take the time to read my explanation. Heck, this could be tl for you.
BUT:
I guess your right, well thought out and logical debates have no place on SYM. You got me. The more valued an argument, the less valued it is. Flawless victory for you.
i guess, friend soron, is that this is why they have the gutter. because they can't argue points legitimately, and frequently have to resort to "we don't like you; you suck" responses to explain why you are not "cool" enough to be part of their childish "club".
Its much easier to say: "Soron go kicked off, therefor everything he says must be crap. QED." Without looking at any of the facts.
again, this seems to be how the average gutterite argues. this is one reason i have never applied for gutter membership, and, were gutter membership offered to me, i'd either not join, or go the route you went. it would solely depend on how much time i had to waste.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Now playing Transformers: Legends. 27-time top tier finisher and admin of the TFL Wikia site.
You have no idea what you are talking about, since what started all of this drama was Soron and the Cadet, as once they were gutterbanned, they went ape crazy with this vendetta against it. Sakura's banning is just being used as scapegoat for them to focus their anger against the gutter, as many gutter members, which does include members of the mod staff, were not quite fond of Sakura.
Do you know how old the gutter is, its not like this is new, this happens all the time. People aren't liked and they get made fun of. Some people cannot handle it. About a year ago there was a problem with gutter mod KCW and then a former Global Mod. And they were banned. Just like everyone else. So these prices and such you are rambling about are paid, all the time, you jsut haven't noticed it until now, since your friends are complaining.
I love how it always comes back to me and soron. Blaming us for being "drama *****s" who don't want to let this die. And if that fails, you go over to personal attacks most of the time.
FYI, it isn't just us against the gutter. We aren't alone. Read the thread; or the post quoted by your own post. It isn't just us in an endless campaign against the gutter. It's a lot of the more wise users feeling that it's rather senseless and idiotic. And it's exclusively gutter members defending it. How about we bring that up every ten posts?
Sakura's banning is just being used as scapegoat for them to focus their anger against the gutter, as many gutter members, which does include members of the mod staff, were not quite fond of Sakura.
...
That is in fact perhaps the most low thing I have heard ever on MTGS (gutter included). It's like hitting a man in the nuts with his own recently-deceased dog. Honestly...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Hey kids! Don't like rules? Tired of having your lulz censored by terrible, terrible people called "moderators"? Big fan of metal? Check out Metaln☺☺☺☺! This is probably the worst possible forum to advertise it on!
Added bonus: we're holding a songwriting contest in march with a registry drive going on right now! Check it out, plus the opportunity to earn $50!
And it's exclusively gutter members defending it. How about we bring that up every ten posts?
Ooh, good idea. Just why is that, anyway?
On second thought, lets not.
That is in fact perhaps the most low thing I have heard ever on MTGS (gutter included). It's like hitting a man in the nuts with his own recently-deceased dog. Honestly...
It's actually not. People didn't like Sakura, and they had their reasons. That's not the end of the world. Treating someone unfairly and using epithets and slurs against them because you dislike them, however, are things I take objection to. Just because I don't like somebody doesn't mean I should get to trash them up one side and down the other and vent bigotry. And the argument against this is that the gutter is a private area? Sure. It's like having a trash-talk bar next to a fancy restaurant at the mall. Sometimes people keep to themselves, but you keep having those who get their attitudes mixed-up and harrass people from the nice restaurant, and get themselves kicked out of the mall. The argument is whether the "bar" is worth it. I'm saying - I don't think so.
For whatever reason, I'm still drawing this line from the gutter, AoK, Annorax, YuanTi, and MikeyG's (that's 4 people who could ban her, and indeed the person who banned her was included) hatred of Sakura, and her being banned because WiccanWitch said that she missed the Gaymers.
I think you're wrong about Mikey and 'Rax. They're two of the least biased and most fair mods on the site. I don't know anything about YuanTi other than his name is also a race of snake people. AoK...I'm not gonna say anything because I'm not getting infracted today.
Quote from urzassedatives »
At any rate, the gutter is not part of MTGS. The gutter does not exist, and what happens in the gutter stays in the gutter, you do not talk about the gutter, because it doesn't exist.
Wait, what? You have to access MTGS to apply for membership into the gutter and access MTGS to actually go to the gutter. So how is it not a part of MTGS? Its a hidden usergroup that isn't visible to everyone but if you aren't registered(alot of people lurk a while before joining) you can't see the Clan forums either. Does that mean the Clan forums aren't a part of MTGS? No, it means you need special permissions to view it. I don't understand why you think people shouldn't talk about the gutter outside of it. The fact is that people in the gutter have friends outside the gutter and they might comment on something funny or outrageous they saw in the gutter in passing. We humans aren't perfect and mistakes are made. To err is human and all. The thing is...how do you determine if someone talked about the gutter to someone outside? This was one of the reasons I was booted and I never told anyone *cough*Sakura*cough* about what went on there. *shrug* The gutter isn't as thrilling as most would assume it is. It hardly warrants talking about outside itself.
People...just leave the gutter alone. Its like Imperial China. Isolated, backwards, and generally hostile to outsiders. Unless you enjoy kowtowing to people you've never even seen on the forum before and people you wish you hadn't seen on the forum don't join. >.< Here's a simpler metaphor: its a treehouse for the kids at school who skip you in line, kick your seat from behind you, and call your Pokemon cards stupid to your face and then steal them during recess, a treehouse for those who enjoy the subtle meanness of life and aren't the least bit ashamed of it.
You are seriously using this in an argument? Pointing and name-calling? You might want to just go ahead and bow out before you dig yourself deeper.
Hi there.
If you haven't been digging through posts of the past, you'll note that either or both of SoronTheBeast and The Cadet have done similarly.
Ooh, good idea. Just why is that, anyway?
On second thought, lets not.
Yeah.
This thread is a mess. Guys, if this is all because of getting Gutterbanned, why let it bother you? Why does its existence bother - or even, concern - you?
It's actually not. People didn't like Sakura, and they had their reasons.
People don't like so-and-so; they have their reasons, or not.
So? It's not that big a deal. :|
I'm sure we're all mature enough to realise that it's not going to kill us, or anything.
That's not the end of the world.
Exactly, Mr. Stuff!
Treating someone unfairly and using epithets and slurs against them because you dislike them, however, are things I take objection to. Just because I don't like somebody doesn't mean I should get to trash them up one side and down the other and vent bigotry.
Exactly, once more!
And the argument against this is that the gutter is a private area? Sure. It's like having a trash-talk bar next to a fancy restaurant at the mall. Sometimes people keep to themselves, but you keep having those who get their attitudes mixed-up and harrass people from the nice restaurant, and get themselves kicked out of the mall.
Decent analogy.
The argument is whether the "bar" is worth it. I'm saying - I don't think so.
Okay, there's where it all comes apart.
False analogies and lack of rationale sort of lose me, sorry.
I'm out; this doesn't concern me, and I have no business here. You?
....And the argument against this is that the gutter is a private area? Sure. It's like having a trash-talk bar next to a fancy restaurant at the mall. Sometimes people keep to themselves, but you keep having those who get their attitudes mixed-up and harrass people from the nice restaurant, and get themselves kicked out of the mall. The argument is whether the "bar" is worth it. I'm saying - I don't think so.
I have to disagree. If the Gutter wasn't here for people to vent their frustrations, the anger would constantly spill out in raging torents! The regulars to this site have their frustrations, and instead of attacking the new members who aren't really sure what the right things to say are, they take their anger to the gutter and let loose. Not everything said is proper, but it gets the pent-up rage out and they can go back and hang otu with the "Classy" folk again. It's like a smoking area.....at office parties or any party for that matter....the smoking area becomes a place for people to get away from crowd and express their feelings or let off steam because someone they don't get along with is irking the hell out of them. Some conversations are had in the smoking area that would be seriously innappropriate for the party, but when they get back to the party they feel better because they got their feelings and thoughts off their chest! Get rid of the smoking area and you are going to have some seriously bad situations occur that otherwise wouldn't if they had a place to get away.
think about it.:cool:
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Talkin outta turn....That's a paddlin'. Starin' at my sandals....That's a paddlin'. Paddlin' the school canoe....You better believe that's a paddlin'!" --Jasper
People like Kijin and MikeyG vent their frustrations in the gutter - people like bpc and soronthebeast vent their frustrations with threads like these - and the gutter is a bad influence on the forum?
It's sad and shameful what the Gutter is. The reason that Gutter threads amount to nothing is because there's always only a single sided argument. The other side, the gutter, uses evasive tactics such as personal attacks and off topic remarks to stray the argument. Why do we accuse the gutter of being full of trollers? Because gutter members are the best at it. Just look at GodChild. All he's done in this entire thread is bring up a pointless remark several dozen times. He doesn't even bother to elaborate.
To the gutter opposition, understand this: GUTTERITES ARE NOT AS SIMPLE-MINDED AS THEY SEEM. These people are purposefully averting a meaningful argument so that we can't win. Instead, they just use a mass number of posts to confuse us and other readers. The most profound proof of this is Kijin and Urzadettives, moderator and adminstrator who have come to the same tactics. They set up this meaningless argument, "The gutter is not a part of MTGS", just to throw us for a loop. It's completely asinine.It's undisputable that all legal liability of the Gutter lies in MTGS.
So we've come to the point where we ask, "How can we win?" and "How may we be heard?" because nearly all the main mods and admins are on the side of the gutter. The answer is that we have to continue chanting as well. We can't back down.
WHEN THIS THREAD IS LOCKED, DELETED, OR EDITED, WE WILL KNOW THAT WE'VE BEEN TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF. Don't think this thread hasn't served its purpose. It has.
You are not chained here. If you were forced to be here, it would be a little more unjust. It was your choice to join these forums, and so far it has been your choice to remain here.
I'm not telling you to leave the site, but if i suddenly decided i didn't like how the site was run, i would leave.
WHEN THIS THREAD IS LOCKED, DELETED, OR EDITED, WE WILL KNOW THAT WE'VE BEEN TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF. Don't think this thread hasn't served its purpose. It has.
*tries to quiet the ringing in his ears*
Capslock is not a very useful tool for getting your point across, I'm sorry. I understand what you're trying to say, but, there is no need for conspiracy theories.
This thread seems to be going nowhere fast - so lets have a change of pace. What - exactly - is wrong with the gutter? What would make the gutter acceptable? Well, here's a start.
1. The gutter is not "free access".
Well gee - what happened to equality for all? The main issue I think most non-gutter members have with this is that it creates a place where people can talk about them publicly, and neither they nor their friends can defend them. If I'm being criticized publicly, I should have a right to speak for myself. Anywhere. If people are criticizing me in a bar somewhere down the road, fine, whatever. I do care when they do it right next to my house and the neighbor who overheard tells me about it. Etc.
Solution: Put up a rule somewhere: Anybody who PMs a gutter-mod has access. Period.
2. The gutter has no publicly visible "rules".
This means that people who know of the gutter have no clue what is allowed or what goes on inside - most of the time.
Solution: Put up a rules section for the gutter, same place as above. If all it says is "have fun", fine. Then nobody should ever be gutter-banned, right?
3. You can be banned from the gutter - arbitrarily.
This seems to be a major point of contention. I've seen people saying they were gutter-banned for "not being funny enough". What the hell? This is a section of the site that lets you "supposedly" vent your frustrations.
Solution: Clear rules on how and why you are banned from the gutter. If you stay within these guidelines, you can say what you want, and won't get gutter-banned. See #2 and #1.
If these changes were implemented, honestly I wouldn't care so much about the gutter. I could step in if somebody was saying something I disagreed with, and argue right back, etc. Right now, the gutter is not a separate but equal part of the forums. It's the clique of a few who seem to like kicking people out they don't like.
It's sad and shameful what the Gutter is. The reason that Gutter threads amount to nothing is because there's always only a single sided argument. The other side, the gutter, uses evasive tactics such as personal attacks and off topic remarks to stray the argument. Why do we accuse the gutter of being full of trollers? Because gutter members are the best at it. Just look at GodChild. All he's done in this entire thread is bring up a pointless remark several dozen times. He doesn't even bother to elaborate.
To the gutter opposition, understand this: GUTTERITES ARE NOT AS SIMPLE-MINDED AS THEY SEEM. These people are purposefully averting a meaningful argument so that we can't win. Instead, they just use a mass number of posts to confuse us and other readers. The most profound proof of this is Kijin and Urzadettives, moderator and adminstrator who have come to the same tactics. They set up this meaningless argument, "The gutter is not a part of MTGS", just to throw us for a loop. It's completely asinine.It's undisputable that all legal liability of the Gutter lies in MTGS.
So we've come to the point where we ask, "How can we win?" and "How may we be heard?" because nearly all the main mods and admins are on the side of the gutter. The answer is that we have to continue chanting as well. We can't back down.
WHEN THIS THREAD IS LOCKED, DELETED, OR EDITED, WE WILL KNOW THAT WE'VE BEEN TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF. Don't think this thread hasn't served its purpose. It has.
ATTICA! ATTICA! ATTICA!
The only time I come out of the gutter is when people start attacking the gutter. If it weren't for people attacking the gutter, the gutter would never cause any of the drama you blame it for. This is the point the admins and moderators understand which you and many others seem to miss.
It's sad and shameful what the Gutter is. The reason that Gutter threads amount to nothing is because there's always only a single sided argument. The other side, the gutter, uses evasive tactics such as personal attacks and off topic remarks to stray the argument. Why do we accuse the gutter of being full of trollers? Because gutter members are the best at it. Just look at GodChild. All he's done in this entire thread is bring up a pointless remark several dozen times. He doesn't even bother to elaborate.
To the gutter opposition, understand this: GUTTERITES ARE NOT AS SIMPLE-MINDED AS THEY SEEM. These people are purposefully averting a meaningful argument so that we can't win. Instead, they just use a mass number of posts to confuse us and other readers. The most profound proof of this is Kijin and Urzadettives, moderator and adminstrator who have come to the same tactics. They set up this meaningless argument, "The gutter is not a part of MTGS", just to throw us for a loop. It's completely asinine.It's undisputable that all legal liability of the Gutter lies in MTGS.
So we've come to the point where we ask, "How can we win?" and "How may we be heard?" because nearly all the main mods and admins are on the side of the gutter. The answer is that we have to continue chanting as well. We can't back down.
WHEN THIS THREAD IS LOCKED, DELETED, OR EDITED, WE WILL KNOW THAT WE'VE BEEN TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF. Don't think this thread hasn't served its purpose. It has.
I can't tell if this is supposed to be humor or not.
You're thinking too hard into this. You're trying to make it sound like somehow the rest of the site is being oppressed by The Gutter, and I'm not too sure what you're trying to accomplish with this post. You're acting as though MTGS was some confined communist country in need of an overthrow.
The Gutter isn't that big of a deal. It's a place where people can say what they want. Some are welcome, some aren't, and some people despise being rejected from clubs or groups and go on rants about it. I could tell I really wasn't welcome in The Gutter, it's not that big of a deal. I just went on with my life because The Gutter really wasn't for me.
@Mr. Stuff: There are rules for the gutter. However, the mods have carte blanche to ban you for whatever reason they like, no matter how arbitrary.
If rules are disregarded, then they are not rules.
If the mods want someplace to vent, fine. I understand that. I don't understand the need to let other people - and only arbitrarily chosen "other people" - be part of it.
If rules are disregarded, then they are not rules.
If the mods want someplace to vent, fine. I understand that. I don't understand the need to let other people - and only arbitrarily chosen "other people" - be part of it.
It isn't chosen arbitrarily at all. The people gutterbanned are the people who create all the frustration we are trying to vent.
It seems to me that some users believe that certain members of our staff let a personal dislike of sakura affect their decision to ban her - and that the gutter is at fault here.
The gutter didn't create dislike for Sakura.
The gutter didn't affect the decision by the staff to ban Sakura.
So what negative affect has the gutter actually had on mtgsalvation in, say, the last six months?
we want to have a good laugh, at times at the expense of others. Because we don't wish to hurt these others and/or get infracted, we keep it in a private area.
This is, in fact, what I said. That's precisely what is unfair about the gutter. Who says who gets to laugh at who? If [member A] is decided (again, decided by who?) to be not "funny", they don't get to make fun of you, or they risk getting infracted and/or banned, while you can make fun of [member A] all you want in the foulest language you can think of. The fact that an entire group of people are excluded for the express purpose that they can be made fun of is absurd.
It seems to me that some users believe that certain members of our staff let a personal dislike of sakura affect their decision to ban her - and that the gutter is at fault here.
I think that the mods were waiting for an excuse to ban Sakura and that certain mods certainly did dislike her. The gutter isn't responsible at all. Did some members purposely bait and troll Sakura to goad her into flaming? I think so but maybe I'm just paranoid and cynical.
So what negative affect has the gutter actually had on mtgsalvation in, say, the last six months?
Alot more people know about it now than they did a year ago. This knowledge has created an atmosphere of distrust. What if someone who you consider a friend is saying things about you in the gutter? What if someone who dislikes you is plotting to embarass you? There are alot more what if's attached to the gutter and thats the core of why people are inclined to distrust the gutter and the people who post there.
It's sad and shameful what the Gutter is. The reason that Gutter threads amount to nothing is because there's always only a single sided argument. The other side, the gutter, uses evasive tactics such as personal attacks and off topic remarks to stray the argument. Why do we accuse the gutter of being full of trollers? Because gutter members are the best at it. Just look at GodChild. All he's done in this entire thread is bring up a pointless remark several dozen times. He doesn't even bother to elaborate.
To the gutter opposition, understand this: GUTTERITES ARE NOT AS SIMPLE-MINDED AS THEY SEEM. These people are purposefully averting a meaningful argument so that we can't win. Instead, they just use a mass number of posts to confuse us and other readers. The most profound proof of this is Kijin and Urzadettives, moderator and adminstrator who have come to the same tactics. They set up this meaningless argument, "The gutter is not a part of MTGS", just to throw us for a loop. It's completely asinine.It's undisputable that all legal liability of the Gutter lies in MTGS.
So we've come to the point where we ask, "How can we win?" and "How may we be heard?" because nearly all the main mods and admins are on the side of the gutter. The answer is that we have to continue chanting as well. We can't back down.
There is no way for us to 'win.' This is NOT democracy, nor should it be. And even if it was, the majority of the MTGS does not care about this issue.
WHEN THIS THREAD IS LOCKED, DELETED, OR EDITED, WE WILL KNOW THAT WE'VE BEEN TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF. Don't think this thread hasn't served its purpose. It has.
I highly doubt that will happen. By the end of this thread the arguments will have all turned to glop, and we will all be defending strawmen, on both sides.
People will endlessly argue, and nothing will be done.
@GC: Your actually making well thought out points now. You surprise me.
But after doing a search of this thread, only Gutter people(and on ONE post:The Cadet) are really talking about Sakura, so stop.
I think that the mods were waiting for an excuse to ban Sakura and that certain mods certainly did dislike her. The gutter isn't responsible at all. Did some members purposely bait and troll Sakura to goad her into flaming? I think so but maybe I'm just paranoid and cynical.
The situation with Sakura is definitely what brought it all to the forefront. I think it's now less about Sakura and more about "Who are these people? What are they doing? And why is it all a secret?" The official line of "The Gutter doesn't exist. The Gutter is not part of this site. What happens in the Gutter stays in the Gutter." doesn't really do much to alleviate people's concerns. The secretiveness of the Gutter makes it impossible to really defend since nothing can be verified or disproved. The fact that this thread is still alive is pretty good evidence that this might be a problem. The fact that I made this thread because the issue was coming up in other threads all over the place is very good evidence that it's a problem.
I think that the mods were waiting for an excuse to ban Sakura and that certain mods certainly did dislike her. The gutter isn't responsible at all. Did some members purposely bait and troll Sakura to goad her into flaming? I think so but maybe I'm just paranoid and cynical.
Alot more people know about it now than they did a year ago. This knowledge has created an atmosphere of distrust. What if someone who you consider a friend is saying things about you in the gutter? What if someone who dislikes you is plotting to embarass you? There are alot more what if's attached to the gutter and thats the core of why people are inclined to distrust the gutter and the people who post there.
So you advocate removing the gutter just so that users have no way of finding out exactly what is said behind their backs?
The situation with Sakura is definitely what brought it all to the forefront. I think it's now less about Sakura and more about "Who are these people? What are they doing? And why is it all a secret?" The official line of "The Gutter doesn't exist. The Gutter is not part of this site. What happens in the Gutter stays in the Gutter." doesn't really do much to alleviate people's concerns. The secretiveness of the Gutter makes it impossible to really defend since nothing can be verified or disproved. The fact that this thread is still alive is pretty good evidence that this might be a problem. The fact that I made this thread because the issue was coming up in other threads all over the place is very good evidence that it's a problem.
the problem here isn't the gutter, though, its the small handful of users who are spreading a negative image about the gutter. The "gutter doesn't exist" line worked perfectly for 3 years until budgetplayercadet and soronthebeast started their personal crusade.
the problem here isn't the gutter, though, its the small handful of users who are spreading a negative image about the gutter. The "gutter doesn't exist" line worked perfectly for 3 years until budgetplayercadet and soronthebeast started their personal crusade.
The problem isn't only that the gutter is leaking onto the main forums. I disagree with the content in the gutter by itself in its entirety. Some of the most hateful bigotry has come out of there and there is absolutely no way that TIBA could top it even with his flame PMs to the mods.
Also, "The Gutter doesn't exist" line worked for 3 years because, until then, the Gutter had still recently been a part of the humor subforum. Then, it was modded and NOT exclusive. 3 years and the Gutter has deteriorated into something completely different. 3 years and new members have come and see they have been excluded. This is why the Gutter has become what it has become and why we speak out against it.
BUT:
I guess your right, well thought out and logical debates have no place on SYM. You got me. The more valued an argument, the less valued it is. Flawless victory for you.
I did not know that, I will admit it, but I will also admit my way was more fun.
Everything I have said he can be backed up by facts. I even sent {mikeyg} a PM thanking him for Gbanning me, twice. And I have not reapplied with ANY account.
If anyone really cared about anything they could check my facts/logs, but they do not. Its much easier to say: "Soron go kicked off, therefor everything he says must be crap. QED." Without looking at any of the facts.
The MirroCube - 420 card Mirrodin themed cube
And if I've offended you, I'm sorry, but maybe you need to be offended. But here's my apology and one more thing...
I love how it always comes back to me and soron. Blaming us for being "drama *****s" who don't want to let this die. And if that fails, you go over to personal attacks most of the time.
FYI, it isn't just us against the gutter. We aren't alone. Read the thread; or the post quoted by your own post. It isn't just us in an endless campaign against the gutter. It's a lot of the more wise users feeling that it's rather senseless and idiotic. And it's exclusively gutter members defending it. How about we bring that up every ten posts?
...
That is in fact perhaps the most low thing I have heard ever on MTGS (gutter included). It's like hitting a man in the nuts with his own recently-deceased dog. Honestly...
Added bonus: we're holding a songwriting contest in march with a registry drive going on right now! Check it out, plus the opportunity to earn $50!
You are seriously using this in an argument? Pointing and name-calling? You might want to just go ahead and bow out before you dig yourself deeper.
Ooh, good idea. Just why is that, anyway?
On second thought, lets not.
It's actually not. People didn't like Sakura, and they had their reasons. That's not the end of the world. Treating someone unfairly and using epithets and slurs against them because you dislike them, however, are things I take objection to. Just because I don't like somebody doesn't mean I should get to trash them up one side and down the other and vent bigotry. And the argument against this is that the gutter is a private area? Sure. It's like having a trash-talk bar next to a fancy restaurant at the mall. Sometimes people keep to themselves, but you keep having those who get their attitudes mixed-up and harrass people from the nice restaurant, and get themselves kicked out of the mall. The argument is whether the "bar" is worth it. I'm saying - I don't think so.
I think you're wrong about Mikey and 'Rax. They're two of the least biased and most fair mods on the site. I don't know anything about YuanTi other than his name is also a race of snake people. AoK...I'm not gonna say anything because I'm not getting infracted today.
Wait, what? You have to access MTGS to apply for membership into the gutter and access MTGS to actually go to the gutter. So how is it not a part of MTGS? Its a hidden usergroup that isn't visible to everyone but if you aren't registered(alot of people lurk a while before joining) you can't see the Clan forums either. Does that mean the Clan forums aren't a part of MTGS? No, it means you need special permissions to view it. I don't understand why you think people shouldn't talk about the gutter outside of it. The fact is that people in the gutter have friends outside the gutter and they might comment on something funny or outrageous they saw in the gutter in passing. We humans aren't perfect and mistakes are made. To err is human and all. The thing is...how do you determine if someone talked about the gutter to someone outside? This was one of the reasons I was booted and I never told anyone *cough*Sakura*cough* about what went on there. *shrug* The gutter isn't as thrilling as most would assume it is. It hardly warrants talking about outside itself.
People...just leave the gutter alone. Its like Imperial China. Isolated, backwards, and generally hostile to outsiders. Unless you enjoy kowtowing to people you've never even seen on the forum before and people you wish you hadn't seen on the forum don't join. >.< Here's a simpler metaphor: its a treehouse for the kids at school who skip you in line, kick your seat from behind you, and call your Pokemon cards stupid to your face and then steal them during recess, a treehouse for those who enjoy the subtle meanness of life and aren't the least bit ashamed of it.
If you haven't been digging through posts of the past, you'll note that either or both of SoronTheBeast and The Cadet have done similarly.
Yeah.
This thread is a mess.
Guys, if this is all because of getting Gutterbanned, why let it bother you? Why does its existence bother - or even, concern - you?
People don't like so-and-so; they have their reasons, or not.
So? It's not that big a deal. :|
I'm sure we're all mature enough to realise that it's not going to kill us, or anything.
Exactly, Mr. Stuff!
Exactly, once more!
Decent analogy.
Okay, there's where it all comes apart.
False analogies and lack of rationale sort of lose me, sorry.
I'm out; this doesn't concern me, and I have no business here.
You?
I have to disagree. If the Gutter wasn't here for people to vent their frustrations, the anger would constantly spill out in raging torents! The regulars to this site have their frustrations, and instead of attacking the new members who aren't really sure what the right things to say are, they take their anger to the gutter and let loose. Not everything said is proper, but it gets the pent-up rage out and they can go back and hang otu with the "Classy" folk again. It's like a smoking area.....at office parties or any party for that matter....the smoking area becomes a place for people to get away from crowd and express their feelings or let off steam because someone they don't get along with is irking the hell out of them. Some conversations are had in the smoking area that would be seriously innappropriate for the party, but when they get back to the party they feel better because they got their feelings and thoughts off their chest! Get rid of the smoking area and you are going to have some seriously bad situations occur that otherwise wouldn't if they had a place to get away.
think about it.:cool:
To the gutter opposition, understand this: GUTTERITES ARE NOT AS SIMPLE-MINDED AS THEY SEEM. These people are purposefully averting a meaningful argument so that we can't win. Instead, they just use a mass number of posts to confuse us and other readers. The most profound proof of this is Kijin and Urzadettives, moderator and adminstrator who have come to the same tactics. They set up this meaningless argument, "The gutter is not a part of MTGS", just to throw us for a loop. It's completely asinine.It's undisputable that all legal liability of the Gutter lies in MTGS.
So we've come to the point where we ask, "How can we win?" and "How may we be heard?" because nearly all the main mods and admins are on the side of the gutter. The answer is that we have to continue chanting as well. We can't back down.
WHEN THIS THREAD IS LOCKED, DELETED, OR EDITED, WE WILL KNOW THAT WE'VE BEEN TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF. Don't think this thread hasn't served its purpose. It has.
I'm not telling you to leave the site, but if i suddenly decided i didn't like how the site was run, i would leave.
*tries to quiet the ringing in his ears*
Capslock is not a very useful tool for getting your point across, I'm sorry. I understand what you're trying to say, but, there is no need for conspiracy theories.
This thread seems to be going nowhere fast - so lets have a change of pace. What - exactly - is wrong with the gutter? What would make the gutter acceptable? Well, here's a start.
1. The gutter is not "free access".
Well gee - what happened to equality for all? The main issue I think most non-gutter members have with this is that it creates a place where people can talk about them publicly, and neither they nor their friends can defend them. If I'm being criticized publicly, I should have a right to speak for myself. Anywhere. If people are criticizing me in a bar somewhere down the road, fine, whatever. I do care when they do it right next to my house and the neighbor who overheard tells me about it. Etc.
Solution: Put up a rule somewhere: Anybody who PMs a gutter-mod has access. Period.
2. The gutter has no publicly visible "rules".
This means that people who know of the gutter have no clue what is allowed or what goes on inside - most of the time.
Solution: Put up a rules section for the gutter, same place as above. If all it says is "have fun", fine. Then nobody should ever be gutter-banned, right?
3. You can be banned from the gutter - arbitrarily.
This seems to be a major point of contention. I've seen people saying they were gutter-banned for "not being funny enough". What the hell? This is a section of the site that lets you "supposedly" vent your frustrations.
Solution: Clear rules on how and why you are banned from the gutter. If you stay within these guidelines, you can say what you want, and won't get gutter-banned. See #2 and #1.
If these changes were implemented, honestly I wouldn't care so much about the gutter. I could step in if somebody was saying something I disagreed with, and argue right back, etc. Right now, the gutter is not a separate but equal part of the forums. It's the clique of a few who seem to like kicking people out they don't like.
ATTICA! ATTICA! ATTICA!
The only time I come out of the gutter is when people start attacking the gutter. If it weren't for people attacking the gutter, the gutter would never cause any of the drama you blame it for. This is the point the admins and moderators understand which you and many others seem to miss.
Edit:
Wrong, by the way. There are a large number of gutter users who effectively can't be gutterbanned, because the moderator's act on user consensus.
I can't tell if this is supposed to be humor or not.
You're thinking too hard into this. You're trying to make it sound like somehow the rest of the site is being oppressed by The Gutter, and I'm not too sure what you're trying to accomplish with this post. You're acting as though MTGS was some confined communist country in need of an overthrow.
The Gutter isn't that big of a deal. It's a place where people can say what they want. Some are welcome, some aren't, and some people despise being rejected from clubs or groups and go on rants about it. I could tell I really wasn't welcome in The Gutter, it's not that big of a deal. I just went on with my life because The Gutter really wasn't for me.
If rules are disregarded, then they are not rules.
If the mods want someplace to vent, fine. I understand that. I don't understand the need to let other people - and only arbitrarily chosen "other people" - be part of it.
It isn't chosen arbitrarily at all. The people gutterbanned are the people who create all the frustration we are trying to vent.
How is user consensus determined?? Anyway...the gutter doesn't have a large number of active members. It has like 10-12 active people at best.
The gutter didn't create dislike for Sakura.
The gutter didn't affect the decision by the staff to ban Sakura.
So what negative affect has the gutter actually had on mtgsalvation in, say, the last six months?
This is, in fact, what I said. That's precisely what is unfair about the gutter. Who says who gets to laugh at who? If [member A] is decided (again, decided by who?) to be not "funny", they don't get to make fun of you, or they risk getting infracted and/or banned, while you can make fun of [member A] all you want in the foulest language you can think of. The fact that an entire group of people are excluded for the express purpose that they can be made fun of is absurd.
I think that the mods were waiting for an excuse to ban Sakura and that certain mods certainly did dislike her. The gutter isn't responsible at all. Did some members purposely bait and troll Sakura to goad her into flaming? I think so but maybe I'm just paranoid and cynical.
Alot more people know about it now than they did a year ago. This knowledge has created an atmosphere of distrust. What if someone who you consider a friend is saying things about you in the gutter? What if someone who dislikes you is plotting to embarass you? There are alot more what if's attached to the gutter and thats the core of why people are inclined to distrust the gutter and the people who post there.
There is no way for us to 'win.' This is NOT democracy, nor should it be. And even if it was, the majority of the MTGS does not care about this issue.
I highly doubt that will happen. By the end of this thread the arguments will have all turned to glop, and we will all be defending strawmen, on both sides.
People will endlessly argue, and nothing will be done.
@GC: Your actually making well thought out points now. You surprise me.
But after doing a search of this thread, only Gutter people(and on ONE post:The Cadet) are really talking about Sakura, so stop.
Thanks to the guys at Highlight Studios for the great banner and avatar.
Trade with me http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=101483&highlight=" rel="nofollow"here.
So you advocate removing the gutter just so that users have no way of finding out exactly what is said behind their backs?
Edit:
the problem here isn't the gutter, though, its the small handful of users who are spreading a negative image about the gutter. The "gutter doesn't exist" line worked perfectly for 3 years until budgetplayercadet and soronthebeast started their personal crusade.
The problem isn't only that the gutter is leaking onto the main forums. I disagree with the content in the gutter by itself in its entirety. Some of the most hateful bigotry has come out of there and there is absolutely no way that TIBA could top it even with his flame PMs to the mods.
Also, "The Gutter doesn't exist" line worked for 3 years because, until then, the Gutter had still recently been a part of the humor subforum. Then, it was modded and NOT exclusive. 3 years and the Gutter has deteriorated into something completely different. 3 years and new members have come and see they have been excluded. This is why the Gutter has become what it has become and why we speak out against it.
Please show me where I said it should be removed.