I don't like the changes to the EDH forum, the creating of sub-forums for causal and "competitive" EDH. The format was made to be casual, such a division runs counter to this.
Any divide that exists is nowhere near the level between Type 2 and Casual, but these changes feel like they encourage such a schism. I can see why a Decklists sub-forum could be made, but segreagating decklists can be a turn off for some people. The more people who view threads and/or make comments the better.
I also don't like how there have been spam warnings for people posting suggestions that are little more than just cards in tags. Sometimes it's been justified, but a lot of times it's pretty easy to follow the suggestion or point.
I've gotten a lot out of the EDH forum, but I don't want people being discouraged from following or taking part in the conversation.
Unfortunately, the format is slowly getting away from what Sheldon wanted, and Spike players are getting more prevalent. EDH is getting split into two camps: Spikes and Timmys. I don't like where it's going...but it's going to happen whether we like it or not. Having the two sub-forums is accepting the inevitable IMHO.
I am sure I will get flamed for this, but I would consider myself one of those 'Spike' players 'ruining' EDH as you see it, but I believe that we are just not seeing eye-to-eye.
When I play magic, I enjoy a high power level of the game. I want to see not only everyone in the tourney I play in to use Lotus Cobras and fetches, but foil ones. That said, I like to play EDH as a 'relaxing' format, away from hardcore competition. However, by my nature and the influence of playing competitively, I will desire to overpower my EDH decks as my standard/extended/legacy/vintage/whatever decks.
In my eyes (not to be hostile or anything), I see your perception of the game to be communistic in regards. You are trying to either force people to do things your way, all the same Timmy, or not do them at all. Variety can really help a format, and even allow people to have fun when running some OP combos and such. Here is when I see some of the best interactions, where a Spike player running Strip Mine + Crucible of Worlds is stopped because of that Timmy/Vorthos player running Carrion Beetles and Spike had never seen the card because a low power level. I mean really, is your problem with Spikes or sore sports of the game?
EDIT: check out elderdragonhighlandr's interview with Sheldon, he actually is not concerned with ultra-hypercompetitive sects of the game.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
-C.S. Lewis
"EDH was created as a casual format and as a result cannot be competitive" is a very stale argument and I'm frankly sick of hearing it.
I wish the EDH "purists" would get off their high horses and accept that just because they only enjoy playing EDH casually doesn't mean that everyone has to.
My playgroup enjoys playing EDH competively and casually and there is nothing wrong with that.
I think some people don't understand that the Mirrans are the bad guys. Arcbound Ravager is Mirran. Phyrexia are the good guys coming in to conquer an evil, evil world.
Oh, don't get me wrong...I'm as competitive when it comes to EDH. That's not the issue. If you aren't trying to win...then why are you playing (Hugs and Kisses decks are fun, though)?
I see Spikes as people with "I win instantly" combos. It's just annoying. I don't have a problem beating them....but I like the creativity aspect of the format. "Hurr hurr Rofellos Staff of Domination I win" is not creative. It's just dumb.
Well I guess if the moderators want more work to do in exchange for forums that are more difficult to navigate this is the way to go. Seems like a completely unnecessary change. The forum wasn't "messy" it was simple and everyone there liked it that way (as far as I know).
Explain to me why wanting to have a strong deck that wins is being a douchebag?
When you show up at my store for EDh League and win turn 2 with Erayo when 1 dude is playing an Atog themed deck and another kid has his Ramires pirate deck and they stop coming because they know you will end the game before they get to play any cards then you are causing a problem. Two guys one playing Jhoira and the other playing stasis lock sharuum deck single handedly killed my league. It went from 20 people a week before they started coming to fewer than 8 after a few weeks. Big time fun right?
When you show up at my store for EDh League and win turn 2 with Erayo when 1 dude is playing an Atog themed deck and another kid has his Ramires pirate deck and they stop coming because they know you will end the game before they get to play any cards then you are causing a problem. Two guys one playing Jhoira and the other playing stasis lock sharuum deck single handedly killed my league. It went from 20 people a week before they started coming to fewer than 8 after a few weeks. Big time fun right?
The kind of people who respond to losing by quitting are generally not the sort of people that are fun and challenging opponents.
That being said, unless you've concocted some kind of official league night with rules and standings....don't play with them. Ding. Problem solved. The guys in my playground don't run things like mass LD, Sundering Titan, mindslaver, and other cards because they more or less take an axe to "fun" in the group's eyes.
You're perfectly allowed to houserule things, or to set up group prohibitions on generals or cards, or encourage people who want to play super cuthroat decks to play each other. Whining about it and calling them douchebags doesn't solve the problem, and is indicative of one of its own. Maybe put your own house in order before you look to others?
The kind of people who respond to losing by quitting are generally not the sort of people that are fun and challenging opponents.
No, They are people who like to play their decks. Why go out and play with people who will shut you out every game turn 3 when you can just sit at home and play video games or play against your 8 year old brothers craw wurm deck.
I am not restricted by what cards I have access to. I could build my Sharuum deck to Lock the game turn 5 everytime and never lose. I could tutor up Magister Sphinx and blow out every opponent every game. Instead I gauge the level of the other people playing around me and build accordingly. I won't die if I have to replace Magister Sphinx with Sphinx Ambassador or Sundering Titan with Inkwell Leviathan. Seeing my freinds who have traded and looked around for weeks to make a tribal Barbarian deck getting smoked by Mind over Mater+Arcanis is not fun for me. If it is fun for you I would suggest another format because you are not impressing anyone.
No, They are people who like to play their decks. Why go out and play with people who will shut you out every game turn 3 when you can just sit at home and play video games or play against your 8 year old brothers craw wurm deck.
I am not restricted by what cards I have access to. I could build my Sharuum deck to Lock the game turn 5 everytime and never lose. I could tutor up Magister Sphinx and blow out every opponent every game. Instead I gauge the level of the other people playing around me and build accordingly. I won't die if I have to replace Magister Sphinx with Sphinx Ambassador or Sundering Titan with Inkwell Leviathan. Seeing my freinds who have traded and looked around for weeks to make a tribal Barbarian deck getting smoked by Mind over Mater+Arcanis is not fun for me. If it is fun for you I would suggest another format because you are not impressing anyone.
Bad decks will lose to even okay decks, assuming roughly equal playskill. Personally I don't run things like mindslaver, no infinite combos, no total lock the game out for everyone permanently douchebag combos. The "worst" one I play is basically MUC with nothing but counters and draw(literally), and I pretty much can't win multiplayer. Lol.
But the thing is that you can avoid that kind of thing and *still try to win*, as Surging Chaos said. Its people ignoring that and just whining about it that damage the game much more than people trying to win *while having fun*.
In that interview with Sheldon he says that playing a good game IS winning in EDH. The format wasn't designed to have reward the last man standing or the guy with the most KOs. It was created so people could have fun doing stupid stuff that doesn't neccessarily win, advance their gameplan, or realllyaccomplish anything. It is simply to explore sides of magic that can't be explored in any other format. That's why the Armada Games league has the point system for victory.
Also, what defines competitive? In my opinion, you can't really define "competitive" without a metagame to contrast it to. "Casual" means vastly different things to different people, afterall.
In other words: Standard, Extended, Legacy and Vintage; all of these have tourney reports and results from which one can define the competitive archtypes. EDH lacks this.
"EDH was created as a casual format and as a result cannot be competitive" is a very stale argument and I'm frankly sick of hearing it.
I didn't make the argument that it can't be competitive. But there is no denying that EDH is a casual format, as it has been officially recognized as such. I did not set out to have a discussion about "spikes ruining the format," but to discuss the validity of creating subsections for casual and competitive. I think it unnecessarily pigeonholes the format into two divisions where there is plenty of room for different types of play and budgetary constraints in one.
I wish the EDH "purists" would get off their high horses and accept that just because they only enjoy playing EDH casually doesn't mean that everyone has to.
My playgroup enjoys playing EDH competively and casually and there is nothing wrong with that.
That's great. I like that different people get different things out of the format. I just don't see the need to create separate sub-forums like in the Standard forum.
I think the very reason they created the sub forums is to avoid arguments like the one in this thread.
People who do not want to be uber competitive don't need to look in the competitive forums and the people who don't want their playgroup bogged down with cheap gimmicks don't need to look in the casual sub section. timmy gets his own thread, essentially.
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In that interview with Sheldon he says that playing a good game IS winning in EDH.
That's one of the things about Magic, though. Just as "casual" means different things to different people... Sheldon saying "playing a good game is winning" doesn't mean everybody who plays the format will, or should have to, follow the same standard.
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I think the very reason they created the sub forums is to avoid arguments like the one in this thread.
People who do not want to be uber competitive don't need to look in the competitive forums and the people who don't want their playgroup bogged down with cheap gimmicks don't need to look in the casual sub section. timmy gets his own thread, essentially.
I kind of agree with punchbricks.
MTGS doesn't influence the meta thaaat much. Two subforums won't change how people play EDH. It does allow different players (basically each side of the argument in this thread) to have different EDH forums geared towards them.
It sounds like a few people are on the fence, fine with optimal EDH and "timmy" EDH. Those people will have to bounce around between subforums, but I don't see why that's a disaster.
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I'll be sad if people don't start calling The Chain Veil "Fleetwood Mac."
peeps need to chill. if some wanna be competitive, let them. if some wanna be more laid-back, let them.
i myself play for fun, despite my decks being pretty competitive. i also play mainly in 4/5 player games where it doesn't matter if you have the best deck.
but anyway, i think the thing that would be in the 'true' spirit of EDH would be just chilling out and taking it for what it is.
It sounds like a few people are on the fence, fine with optimal EDH and "timmy" EDH. Those people will have to bounce around between subforums, but I don't see why that's a disaster.
By affixing the label of "competitive" or "causal" to sub-forums you are bringing in people's own subjectivity and prejudices. There will be newcomers to the forum or the format who may only get part of the picture by going with one over the other. The format is big enough for different styles of play and divvying it up is unnecessary.
Standard, Extended, Legacy and Vintage; all of these have tourney reports and results from which one can define the competitive archtypes. EDH lacks this.
This is exactly what I meant when I said that a separate "competitive" sub-forum runs counter to the format. Tier 1 generals and instant win combos are part of the format and they should all be discussed together with the "timmy decks."
The kind of people who respond to losing by quitting are generally not the sort of people that are fun and challenging opponents.
That being said, unless you've concocted some kind of official league night with rules and standings....don't play with them. Ding. Problem solved. The guys in my playground don't run things like mass LD, Sundering Titan, mindslaver, and other cards because they more or less take an axe to "fun" in the group's eyes.
You're perfectly allowed to houserule things, or to set up group prohibitions on generals or cards, or encourage people who want to play super cuthroat decks to play each other. Whining about it and calling them douchebags doesn't solve the problem, and is indicative of one of its own. Maybe put your own house in order before you look to others?
You just essentially called your own EDH players "eight-year olds with craw wurm decks." There are no such things as "casual tournaments." By running a tournament you are invited people to win it. If your players are too lousy to compete, then why are you not just making it a casual night? Last I heard, Spikes participate in tournaments. Stop running them if you don't like who they bring in.
EDH is not the poor mans format, it is not the noobs format and it is not the casual players format. It is the Magic: the Gathering players format, just like every other one.
I've never seen a group of kids with such an undeserved sense of entitlement. Maybe "eight year olds" was the right direction after all. Way to hit the nail on the head.
No, They are people who like to play their decks. Why go out and play with people who will shut you out every game turn 3 when you can just sit at home and play video games or play against your 8 year old brothers craw wurm deck.
I am not restricted by what cards I have access to. I could build my Sharuum deck to Lock the game turn 5 everytime and never lose. I could tutor up Magister Sphinx and blow out every opponent every game. Instead I gauge the level of the other people playing around me and build accordingly. I won't die if I have to replace Magister Sphinx with Sphinx Ambassador or Sundering Titan with Inkwell Leviathan. Seeing my freinds who have traded and looked around for weeks to make a tribal Barbarian deck getting smoked by Mind over Mater+Arcanis is not fun for me. If it is fun for you I would suggest another format because you are not impressing anyone.
The kind of people who respond to losing by quitting are generally not the sort of people that are fun and challenging opponents.
That being said, unless you've concocted some kind of official league night with rules and standings....don't play with them. Ding. Problem solved. The guys in my playground don't run things like mass LD, Sundering Titan, mindslaver, and other cards because they more or less take an axe to "fun" in the group's eyes.
You're perfectly allowed to houserule things, or to set up group prohibitions on generals or cards, or encourage people who want to play super cuthroat decks to play each other. Whining about it and calling them douchebags doesn't solve the problem, and is indicative of one of its own. Maybe put your own house in order before you look to others?
You just essentially called your own EDH players "eight-year olds with craw wurm decks." There are no such things as "casual tournaments." By running a tournament you are invited people to win it. If your players are too lousy to compete, then why are you not just making it a casual night? Last I heard, Spikes participate in tournaments. Stop running them if you don't like who they bring in.
EDH is not the poor mans format, it is not the noobs format and it is not the casual players format. It is the Magic: the Gathering players format, just like every other one.
I've never seen a group of kids with such an undeserved sense of entitlement. Maybe "eight year olds" was the right direction after all. Way to hit the nail on the head.
Madding - Who exactly is hitting the nail on the head? I read as you were quoting Elysium...
In any case. The game's not called Magic: the Gathering for nothing.
Houserules is one of it's greatest aspects and helps players grow.
About a forums decks areas and netdecking vs. houserules...
The minds of many out think the minds of few.
Given a limted cardpool it's only a matter of time before the best of that pool has been
discovered, assembled and, exploited.
Encourage your group to explore diverse formats. Keep evolving.
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Any divide that exists is nowhere near the level between Type 2 and Casual, but these changes feel like they encourage such a schism. I can see why a Decklists sub-forum could be made, but segreagating decklists can be a turn off for some people. The more people who view threads and/or make comments the better.
I also don't like how there have been spam warnings for people posting suggestions that are little more than just cards in tags. Sometimes it's been justified, but a lot of times it's pretty easy to follow the suggestion or point.
I've gotten a lot out of the EDH forum, but I don't want people being discouraged from following or taking part in the conversation.
That's definitely getting infracted.
PTQ Top 8: 11/21/2009 Zendikar Sealed 4th
When I play magic, I enjoy a high power level of the game. I want to see not only everyone in the tourney I play in to use Lotus Cobras and fetches, but foil ones. That said, I like to play EDH as a 'relaxing' format, away from hardcore competition. However, by my nature and the influence of playing competitively, I will desire to overpower my EDH decks as my standard/extended/legacy/vintage/whatever decks.
In my eyes (not to be hostile or anything), I see your perception of the game to be communistic in regards. You are trying to either force people to do things your way, all the same Timmy, or not do them at all. Variety can really help a format, and even allow people to have fun when running some OP combos and such. Here is when I see some of the best interactions, where a Spike player running Strip Mine + Crucible of Worlds is stopped because of that Timmy/Vorthos player running Carrion Beetles and Spike had never seen the card because a low power level. I mean really, is your problem with Spikes or sore sports of the game?
EDIT: check out elderdragonhighlandr's interview with Sheldon, he actually is not concerned with ultra-hypercompetitive sects of the game.
-C.S. Lewis
EDH
Obzedat - Still Alive
Retired - Nicol Bolas
I wish the EDH "purists" would get off their high horses and accept that just because they only enjoy playing EDH casually doesn't mean that everyone has to.
My playgroup enjoys playing EDH competively and casually and there is nothing wrong with that.
Explain to me why wanting to have a strong deck that wins is being a douchebag?
The Izzet
I see Spikes as people with "I win instantly" combos. It's just annoying. I don't have a problem beating them....but I like the creativity aspect of the format. "Hurr hurr Rofellos Staff of Domination I win" is not creative. It's just dumb.
When you show up at my store for EDh League and win turn 2 with Erayo when 1 dude is playing an Atog themed deck and another kid has his Ramires pirate deck and they stop coming because they know you will end the game before they get to play any cards then you are causing a problem. Two guys one playing Jhoira and the other playing stasis lock sharuum deck single handedly killed my league. It went from 20 people a week before they started coming to fewer than 8 after a few weeks. Big time fun right?
PTQ Top 8: 11/21/2009 Zendikar Sealed 4th
At least, I do it with my Captain Sisay deck. Instead of actively assembling Crovax, Ascendant Hero + Kamahl, Fist of Krosa to massacre everyone's lands or set up a Mindslaver/Yosei, the Morning Star lock with Mistveil Plains, I'll do random stuff like get Kamahl + Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary + Gaea's Cradle and generate a ****load of mana for lethal combat phases.
The kind of people who respond to losing by quitting are generally not the sort of people that are fun and challenging opponents.
That being said, unless you've concocted some kind of official league night with rules and standings....don't play with them. Ding. Problem solved. The guys in my playground don't run things like mass LD, Sundering Titan, mindslaver, and other cards because they more or less take an axe to "fun" in the group's eyes.
You're perfectly allowed to houserule things, or to set up group prohibitions on generals or cards, or encourage people who want to play super cuthroat decks to play each other. Whining about it and calling them douchebags doesn't solve the problem, and is indicative of one of its own. Maybe put your own house in order before you look to others?
Thats fine. I have no Problems with that.
No, They are people who like to play their decks. Why go out and play with people who will shut you out every game turn 3 when you can just sit at home and play video games or play against your 8 year old brothers craw wurm deck.
I am not restricted by what cards I have access to. I could build my Sharuum deck to Lock the game turn 5 everytime and never lose. I could tutor up Magister Sphinx and blow out every opponent every game. Instead I gauge the level of the other people playing around me and build accordingly. I won't die if I have to replace Magister Sphinx with Sphinx Ambassador or Sundering Titan with Inkwell Leviathan. Seeing my freinds who have traded and looked around for weeks to make a tribal Barbarian deck getting smoked by Mind over Mater+Arcanis is not fun for me. If it is fun for you I would suggest another format because you are not impressing anyone.
PTQ Top 8: 11/21/2009 Zendikar Sealed 4th
Bad decks will lose to even okay decks, assuming roughly equal playskill. Personally I don't run things like mindslaver, no infinite combos, no total lock the game out for everyone permanently douchebag combos. The "worst" one I play is basically MUC with nothing but counters and draw(literally), and I pretty much can't win multiplayer. Lol.
But the thing is that you can avoid that kind of thing and *still try to win*, as Surging Chaos said. Its people ignoring that and just whining about it that damage the game much more than people trying to win *while having fun*.
PTQ Top 8: 11/21/2009 Zendikar Sealed 4th
To me, casual has never meant bad.
Also, what defines competitive? In my opinion, you can't really define "competitive" without a metagame to contrast it to. "Casual" means vastly different things to different people, afterall.
In other words: Standard, Extended, Legacy and Vintage; all of these have tourney reports and results from which one can define the competitive archtypes. EDH lacks this.
I didn't make the argument that it can't be competitive. But there is no denying that EDH is a casual format, as it has been officially recognized as such. I did not set out to have a discussion about "spikes ruining the format," but to discuss the validity of creating subsections for casual and competitive. I think it unnecessarily pigeonholes the format into two divisions where there is plenty of room for different types of play and budgetary constraints in one.
That's great. I like that different people get different things out of the format. I just don't see the need to create separate sub-forums like in the Standard forum.
People who do not want to be uber competitive don't need to look in the competitive forums and the people who don't want their playgroup bogged down with cheap gimmicks don't need to look in the casual sub section. timmy gets his own thread, essentially.
When neither modern science nor philosophy can explain what life is."
Does the Reaper dream of darkness Darker than BLACK?
That's one of the things about Magic, though. Just as "casual" means different things to different people... Sheldon saying "playing a good game is winning" doesn't mean everybody who plays the format will, or should have to, follow the same standard.
I kind of agree with punchbricks.
MTGS doesn't influence the meta thaaat much. Two subforums won't change how people play EDH. It does allow different players (basically each side of the argument in this thread) to have different EDH forums geared towards them.
It sounds like a few people are on the fence, fine with optimal EDH and "timmy" EDH. Those people will have to bounce around between subforums, but I don't see why that's a disaster.
i myself play for fun, despite my decks being pretty competitive. i also play mainly in 4/5 player games where it doesn't matter if you have the best deck.
but anyway, i think the thing that would be in the 'true' spirit of EDH would be just chilling out and taking it for what it is.
- Tab
By affixing the label of "competitive" or "causal" to sub-forums you are bringing in people's own subjectivity and prejudices. There will be newcomers to the forum or the format who may only get part of the picture by going with one over the other. The format is big enough for different styles of play and divvying it up is unnecessary.
This is exactly what I meant when I said that a separate "competitive" sub-forum runs counter to the format. Tier 1 generals and instant win combos are part of the format and they should all be discussed together with the "timmy decks."
You just essentially called your own EDH players "eight-year olds with craw wurm decks." There are no such things as "casual tournaments." By running a tournament you are invited people to win it. If your players are too lousy to compete, then why are you not just making it a casual night? Last I heard, Spikes participate in tournaments. Stop running them if you don't like who they bring in.
EDH is not the poor mans format, it is not the noobs format and it is not the casual players format. It is the Magic: the Gathering players format, just like every other one.
I've never seen a group of kids with such an undeserved sense of entitlement. Maybe "eight year olds" was the right direction after all. Way to hit the nail on the head.
In any case. The game's not called Magic: the Gathering for nothing.
Houserules is one of it's greatest aspects and helps players grow.
About a forums decks areas and netdecking vs. houserules...
The minds of many out think the minds of few.
Given a limted cardpool it's only a matter of time before the best of that pool has been
discovered, assembled and, exploited.
Encourage your group to explore diverse formats. Keep evolving.