This is an important issue that I really think needs to be addressed by the community as a whole.
As of late, there seems to be an up flux of threads in this forum about how the Moderators of Salvation are too strict and/or take their job too seriously. It seems that a few individuals have a problem with the way that the moderators conduct themselves.
I think that we need to discuss this and to find away to solve this important issue. Mainly, how to best remove the complainers and/or their threads. Clearly, the people that have problems with the moderators are wrong, and their threads complaining about it are as spammy as the posts that got them in trouble in the first place. The moderators do a very good job. How can we help them against the whiners and let them know we appreciate them volunteering their time to make Salvation a better place? That is what this thread is about. Stay on topic, which would involve you reading all of the OP.
I hate to point something like this out, but I've noticed that many of the complaint threads have stemmed mostly from users with <100 posts and/or a join date of late 2009-2010.
No offense, but I sense a correlation between someone who just registered on the site with getting pissed off at how the site operates. Which that usually goes back to not reading the forum rules before posting, and then it becomes easy to connect the dots.
I've always blamed that on the massive exodus of users to MTGs back when the WoTC boards shut down for a while....that was a crazy time. Random threads/posts all over the place what whatnot -- and so they were getting warned/infracted a lot. I think they're just pissy now. I think the site is fine as is...a lot more traffic now than in the past, but still serves its purpose.
I don't see any pattern going on.
We won't cater or listen to people who post like spoiled children throwing a fit.
Why should we?
Edit: posting from iPhone...
We don't have a problem because these members aren't inciting anything relevant. We are handling these silly outbursts appropriately as well, IMO.
Its really sad, i mean we have this threads show up all the time and instead of actually pointing out factual examples all we get is kids who are obviously too butthurt because they can't get away with the same level of crap most other forums let them.
Every now and again we get a wanna be internet troll or a seriously oversensitive user who decides they are above the rules and start flame/troll threads, but its mostly a very repetitive pattern, Member comes in, see he can't say ☺☺☺☺ ☺☺☺☺ing while ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺ing ☺☺☺☺☺☺ without getting an infraction and starts making threads on "Hey X place lets me say this no prob! You are stifling me bro! 1st Amendment! You mods are all pathetic Nazi ☺☺☺☺☺☺s!", its really getting old, but i really see no real way to stop this other than having a huge Popup show up upon first entering the site (first time the cookie is placed on the computer), detailing all the rules similar to a Terms of Use and force them to scroll down for the accept button to become enabled... it wont solve it but it may help perhaps?
(Pun not intended btw :p)
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I've noticed these threads popping up, and I honestly think these things feed themselves. I mean, I realize my thread count isn't that impressive, but I've been around for a while. I've learned more about the game in the past year on these forums than I have in my 8 years of playing the game.
What I seem to notice is that there are (were) a select few people who can't bother to read rules, are rude, don't handle situations with mods properly, and the mods act accordingly. In turn, new members come in, and the mods have upped the "strictness" level because of previous culprits, and the new members say "hey, what gives? These mods are too strict." I think people just need to realize that the strictness of moderation is most likely because of a legitimate reason to be more strict, in events of rule breakage or what-not.
Then people come in and read these rants that they themselves would not write, and say "Yeah! What he said!", and the moderators have to get stricter.
Honestly, I think the moderators do a fine job, and if any increase of complaints arise, it is simply because being ballsy is contagious.
I love the fact that Moderators enforce rules. That's their job. The internet is chaos and if left alone, this place would die faster than you can "click here for free boner pills!!!"
I think some people just can't handle getting a warning or infraction...
I remember my first warning. It was kind of embarrassing, I guess, but it wasn't a huge deal. I think I actually disagree with it. But it's a warning, so who cares? If they want to do extra work by giving warnings to every borderline case, that's their prerogative.
(I kinda miss my squeaky clean slate, but flaming SYM about it? Yeeeah, I don't think that would've helped...)
Warnings don't do anything. Even single infractions don't. Newer and older posters alike need to get over stuff like that.
I can see why people get worked up over suspensions, but even then, posting in SYM does nothing.
On an unrelated note, I am glad this forum is moderated. I may not always agree with everyone's mod style, but 90% of the mods are awesome, and 100% are doing the best they can.
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I'll be sad if people don't start calling The Chain Veil "Fleetwood Mac."
What exactly is this forum for if it isn't to complain about the moderators?
There's a difference between lodging a constructive complaint about the staff with links to situations you believe to have been handled inappropriately and screeching like a baby howler monkey.
We all already know that this is completely unavoidable. There will always be complainers, moaners, whiners, and the like. Tiz the life and operation of forums.
The posting rules are well stated in almost every sub-forum we choose to post in. The decision that new posters have to make is whether or not they choose to read the rules before posting. That's not something we can control. I can see how this conversation can get increasingly annoying for mods:
Whiner: Why did I get an infraction?
Mod: You did ____. Did you read the forum rules before you posted that?
Whiner: ..... Well, no. But I do that everywhere else!
Mod: -.-
Comparatively, this forum is regulated and patrolled at an exponentially higher rate than other forums I post in; but that's because the amount of dicking around in the other forums is already at such a high rate, the forum would cease to exist if some admin decided to finally put their foot down. Of course, I don't go to said other forums to find out any "meta-breaking news" that might have appeared. Here, it's more professional. Here, it's more serious. Here, it's well-respected.
This is a "sink or swim" forum. If a person doesn't understand what changes he/she has to make in their forum posting to make it acceptable to read and NOT be immediately locked, then said person should go elsewhere or begin to realize (contrary to what mommy told them) that their opinion is not always held in the highest esteem.
This is a "sink or swim" forum. If a person doesn't understand what changes he/she has to make in their forum posting to make it acceptable to read and NOT be immediately locked, then said person should go elsewhere or begin to realize (contrary to what mommy told them) that their opinion is not always held in the highest esteem.
That's probably what I like about this forum the most.
Every time I see someone who is really immature and has a low post count, I can think to myself, "well, they'll be suspended in two months and banned for evading a month later."
Sometimes it doesn't happen, but usually it does.
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I'll be sad if people don't start calling The Chain Veil "Fleetwood Mac."
There's a difference between lodging a constructive complaint about the staff with links to situations you believe to have been handled inappropriately and screeching like a baby howler monkey.
Yeah, I didn't look at the recent threads. Stuff like "The mods suck" is obviously bad, but I think the mods also tend to take the constructive criticism that this forum was made for a bit too personally a lot of the time.
I'm going to guess it's because 90% of responses mods get about their behavior in a certain situation involve the accused saying "You did _____! I didn't like the fact that you did _____. I would appreciate it if you changed your ways so that this doesn't happen again."
Those who actually did take the time to write a professionally styled and written "complaint/concern" would probably receive better feedback. Either way, it's a member with no power questioning the actions of someone with power. It's hardly ever going to be looked at objectively.
Yeah, I didn't look at the recent threads. Stuff like "The mods suck" is obviously bad, but I think the mods also tend to take the constructive criticism that this forum was made for a bit too personally a lot of the time.
Let's face it, there are times when it's hard not to take criticism badly. No one wants to be told that they're doing a bad job, particularly not publicly in front of everyone who are supposed to look to you as an authority figure. And taking it personally is made even easier when there are overtones of "I really don't like this person and I'm going to take the opportunity of this otherwise minor screwup to really stick it to him" in some of these complaints.
Which isn't to say that these complaints may not be valid, just that it can be difficult to not get one's back up when so many of the complaints we receive are really just personal attacks from disgruntled members.
well the only complain i have is when my thread gets moved down to the 2nd page and i 'bump' it so i can get more opinions. then you get charged with necroing... -.- I mean who really looks at the 2nd page?
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Let's face it, there are times when it's hard not to take criticism badly. No one wants to be told that they're doing a bad job, particularly not publicly in front of everyone who are supposed to look to you as an authority figure. And taking it personally is made even easier when there are overtones of "I really don't like this person and I'm going to take the opportunity of this otherwise minor screwup to really stick it to him" in some of these complaints.
Which isn't to say that these complaints may not be valid, just that it can be difficult to not get one's back up when so many of the complaints we receive are really just personal attacks from disgruntled members.
The problem lies within this statement to a degree. SOME mods on this site make it SEEM like they get their jollies by infracting people. It's an overinflation of ego issue.
Although I feel like some mods do take things too far or too personally, most of the time they are just doing what is necessary, especially in places like Magic Rulings and the Rumor Mill which have huge amounts of traffic and need to be moderating tightly to prevent things from getting out of hand.
The main problem seems to be people who get an infraction/warning and say "This isn't fair." The Mod says "You broke the rules". And they basically say something along the lines of "I didn't read them and I don't feel a responsibility to." Then they make a post here about how mods are Nazi ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺s or something rude rather than either, A) Being mature about criticism or B) Sucking it up because one infraction/warning isn't really that terrible and the internet is not that serious business.
Since you can't really force someone to read the rules, your best bet is to just keep moderating away, the mod team does a great job of stopping spam/trolling/flaming/etc.. and a few disgruntled members isn't worth changing policy over. If most people here felt they were being overly-moderated it would be different, but it doesn't seem like most people think that. I'm glad we do have a thread to talk about this in a constructive manner, and amazingly when someone posts in a mature fashion the thread stays unlocked!
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I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
People are used to other forums where "LOL DUMBASS" is considered a proper post. They come here, where we expect quality posts and they are shocked when "LOL DUMBASS" is moderated and unacceptable.
The problem lies within this statement to a degree. SOME mods on this site make it SEEM like they get their jollies by infracting people. It's an overinflation of ego issue.
From the perspective of someone who doesn't read the rules and stumbles around like a flustered school girl, unable to form any coherent argument outside of flaming, that might appear to be the case. Being a moderator, especially on a board of this size, is a largely thankless job that is purely voluntary. While some moderator's personality might give off that they enjoy giving out infractions, in almost all cases it's not about enjoyment but about doing their job.
And, even if a moderator does enjoy it, if others can agree that the infractions came about as a breach of the rules on the infractee's end and the infractee can't handle themselves better than posting incoherrent babbling, why is the moderator in the wrong? Many people come here and freak out over a simple warning and haven't ever even been infracted. This isn't 4-chan or somethingawful - the internet is a cesspool, and we're lucky enough to have some decent people here dedicated to protect us from becoming places like those.
This particular board was made with addressiong community-wide issues in mind. Some times it ends up being a catch-all for butthurt users, but this wasn't put here so people could throw tantrums and post incoherent ramblings every time they get a warning. This was put here because in the end it provides the mods less work when the majority of this sort of thing ends up in one place, rather than scattered all over the forums where the user's issue lie. You can probably see moderators have their hands full in their respective boards - can you imagine if this section didn't exist and all this was scattered elsewhere on the forum?
In the end it's a simple authority issue. People on the internet want to do and say whatever they want because they think anonymity grants them immunity, and then they come to a privately owned board and break the rules. Just as a user feels empowered by anonymity, so to does the user grow more furious when struck down by another anonymous person.
I think that anyone with a serious issue with a moderator should be able to roleplay battle against them in the Colosseum! One-on-one, fight to the death!
I think that anyone with a serious issue with a moderator should be able to roleplay battle against them in the Colosseum! One-on-one, fight to the death!
I approve of this idea.
I think that this would really help ease tension, AND I love watching n00bs getting pwn'ed.
I think that anyone with a serious issue with a moderator should be able to roleplay battle against them in the Colosseum! One-on-one, fight to the death!
I approve as well. We should totally do this.
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I totally, totally agree with the whole 'fighting a moderator in the Colosseum' thing. Totally.
Honestly, though, from what I've seen, about 90% of the 'The moderators suck!' threads come from people who don't actually read the rules and think they're special snowflakes who should get to avoid them.
The day when I see one of these outburst threads actually submit a logical argument that doesn't personally attack an authority figure of this forum, only the way that person is doing their job, and without a "wtf is this ☺☺☺☺, I gotted an infraction" (the grammar that many users display is also terrible), is the day I will disagree with anything that's been said here already.
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As of late, there seems to be an up flux of threads in this forum about how the Moderators of Salvation are too strict and/or take their job too seriously. It seems that a few individuals have a problem with the way that the moderators conduct themselves.
I think that we need to discuss this and to find away to solve this important issue. Mainly, how to best remove the complainers and/or their threads. Clearly, the people that have problems with the moderators are wrong, and their threads complaining about it are as spammy as the posts that got them in trouble in the first place. The moderators do a very good job. How can we help them against the whiners and let them know we appreciate them volunteering their time to make Salvation a better place? That is what this thread is about. Stay on topic, which would involve you reading all of the OP.
No offense, but I sense a correlation between someone who just registered on the site with getting pissed off at how the site operates. Which that usually goes back to not reading the forum rules before posting, and then it becomes easy to connect the dots.
We won't cater or listen to people who post like spoiled children throwing a fit.
Why should we?
Edit: posting from iPhone...
We don't have a problem because these members aren't inciting anything relevant. We are handling these silly outbursts appropriately as well, IMO.
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Every now and again we get a wanna be internet troll or a seriously oversensitive user who decides they are above the rules and start flame/troll threads, but its mostly a very repetitive pattern, Member comes in, see he can't say ☺☺☺☺ ☺☺☺☺ing while ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺ing ☺☺☺☺☺☺ without getting an infraction and starts making threads on "Hey X place lets me say this no prob! You are stifling me bro! 1st Amendment! You mods are all pathetic Nazi ☺☺☺☺☺☺s!", its really getting old, but i really see no real way to stop this other than having a huge Popup show up upon first entering the site (first time the cookie is placed on the computer), detailing all the rules similar to a Terms of Use and force them to scroll down for the accept button to become enabled... it wont solve it but it may help perhaps?
(Pun not intended btw :p)
What I seem to notice is that there are (were) a select few people who can't bother to read rules, are rude, don't handle situations with mods properly, and the mods act accordingly. In turn, new members come in, and the mods have upped the "strictness" level because of previous culprits, and the new members say "hey, what gives? These mods are too strict." I think people just need to realize that the strictness of moderation is most likely because of a legitimate reason to be more strict, in events of rule breakage or what-not.
Then people come in and read these rants that they themselves would not write, and say "Yeah! What he said!", and the moderators have to get stricter.
Honestly, I think the moderators do a fine job, and if any increase of complaints arise, it is simply because being ballsy is contagious.
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I remember my first warning. It was kind of embarrassing, I guess, but it wasn't a huge deal. I think I actually disagree with it. But it's a warning, so who cares? If they want to do extra work by giving warnings to every borderline case, that's their prerogative.
(I kinda miss my squeaky clean slate, but flaming SYM about it? Yeeeah, I don't think that would've helped...)
Warnings don't do anything. Even single infractions don't. Newer and older posters alike need to get over stuff like that.
I can see why people get worked up over suspensions, but even then, posting in SYM does nothing.
On an unrelated note, I am glad this forum is moderated. I may not always agree with everyone's mod style, but 90% of the mods are awesome, and 100% are doing the best they can.
There's a difference between lodging a constructive complaint about the staff with links to situations you believe to have been handled inappropriately and screeching like a baby howler monkey.
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Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
The posting rules are well stated in almost every sub-forum we choose to post in. The decision that new posters have to make is whether or not they choose to read the rules before posting. That's not something we can control. I can see how this conversation can get increasingly annoying for mods:
Whiner: Why did I get an infraction?
Mod: You did ____. Did you read the forum rules before you posted that?
Whiner: ..... Well, no. But I do that everywhere else!
Mod: -.-
Comparatively, this forum is regulated and patrolled at an exponentially higher rate than other forums I post in; but that's because the amount of dicking around in the other forums is already at such a high rate, the forum would cease to exist if some admin decided to finally put their foot down. Of course, I don't go to said other forums to find out any "meta-breaking news" that might have appeared. Here, it's more professional. Here, it's more serious. Here, it's well-respected.
This is a "sink or swim" forum. If a person doesn't understand what changes he/she has to make in their forum posting to make it acceptable to read and NOT be immediately locked, then said person should go elsewhere or begin to realize (contrary to what mommy told them) that their opinion is not always held in the highest esteem.
That's probably what I like about this forum the most.
Every time I see someone who is really immature and has a low post count, I can think to myself, "well, they'll be suspended in two months and banned for evading a month later."
Sometimes it doesn't happen, but usually it does.
Yeah, I didn't look at the recent threads. Stuff like "The mods suck" is obviously bad, but I think the mods also tend to take the constructive criticism that this forum was made for a bit too personally a lot of the time.
Those who actually did take the time to write a professionally styled and written "complaint/concern" would probably receive better feedback. Either way, it's a member with no power questioning the actions of someone with power. It's hardly ever going to be looked at objectively.
Let's face it, there are times when it's hard not to take criticism badly. No one wants to be told that they're doing a bad job, particularly not publicly in front of everyone who are supposed to look to you as an authority figure. And taking it personally is made even easier when there are overtones of "I really don't like this person and I'm going to take the opportunity of this otherwise minor screwup to really stick it to him" in some of these complaints.
Which isn't to say that these complaints may not be valid, just that it can be difficult to not get one's back up when so many of the complaints we receive are really just personal attacks from disgruntled members.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
The problem lies within this statement to a degree. SOME mods on this site make it SEEM like they get their jollies by infracting people. It's an overinflation of ego issue.
The main problem seems to be people who get an infraction/warning and say "This isn't fair." The Mod says "You broke the rules". And they basically say something along the lines of "I didn't read them and I don't feel a responsibility to." Then they make a post here about how mods are Nazi ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺s or something rude rather than either, A) Being mature about criticism or B) Sucking it up because one infraction/warning isn't really that terrible and the internet is not that serious business.
Since you can't really force someone to read the rules, your best bet is to just keep moderating away, the mod team does a great job of stopping spam/trolling/flaming/etc.. and a few disgruntled members isn't worth changing policy over. If most people here felt they were being overly-moderated it would be different, but it doesn't seem like most people think that. I'm glad we do have a thread to talk about this in a constructive manner, and amazingly when someone posts in a mature fashion the thread stays unlocked!
I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
People are used to other forums where "LOL DUMBASS" is considered a proper post. They come here, where we expect quality posts and they are shocked when "LOL DUMBASS" is moderated and unacceptable.
From the perspective of someone who doesn't read the rules and stumbles around like a flustered school girl, unable to form any coherent argument outside of flaming, that might appear to be the case. Being a moderator, especially on a board of this size, is a largely thankless job that is purely voluntary. While some moderator's personality might give off that they enjoy giving out infractions, in almost all cases it's not about enjoyment but about doing their job.
And, even if a moderator does enjoy it, if others can agree that the infractions came about as a breach of the rules on the infractee's end and the infractee can't handle themselves better than posting incoherrent babbling, why is the moderator in the wrong? Many people come here and freak out over a simple warning and haven't ever even been infracted. This isn't 4-chan or somethingawful - the internet is a cesspool, and we're lucky enough to have some decent people here dedicated to protect us from becoming places like those.
This particular board was made with addressiong community-wide issues in mind. Some times it ends up being a catch-all for butthurt users, but this wasn't put here so people could throw tantrums and post incoherent ramblings every time they get a warning. This was put here because in the end it provides the mods less work when the majority of this sort of thing ends up in one place, rather than scattered all over the forums where the user's issue lie. You can probably see moderators have their hands full in their respective boards - can you imagine if this section didn't exist and all this was scattered elsewhere on the forum?
In the end it's a simple authority issue. People on the internet want to do and say whatever they want because they think anonymity grants them immunity, and then they come to a privately owned board and break the rules. Just as a user feels empowered by anonymity, so to does the user grow more furious when struck down by another anonymous person.
(Also known as Xenphire)
I definitly agree. I was just seeing if anyone had any ideas to help out.
Like,
I approve of this idea.
I think that this would really help ease tension, AND I love watching n00bs getting pwn'ed.
I approve as well. We should totally do this.
Honestly, though, from what I've seen, about 90% of the 'The moderators suck!' threads come from people who don't actually read the rules and think they're special snowflakes who should get to avoid them.
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