I don't see any pattern going on.
We won't cater or listen to people who post like spoiled children throwing a fit.
Why should we?
Edit: posting from iPhone...
We don't have a problem because these members aren't inciting anything relevant. We are handling these silly outbursts appropriately as well, IMO.
Doesn't anybody see that posts like this are part of the problem? How exactly is complaining about something acting like a spoiled child throwing a fit? It would be like calling customers who were complaining about defective products as the same thing. Very unprofessional.
Originally Posted by urzassedatives
I don't see any pattern going on.
We won't cater or listen to people who post like spoiled children throwing a fit.
Why should we?
Edit: posting from iPhone...
We don't have a problem because these members aren't inciting anything relevant. We are handling these silly outbursts appropriately as well, IMO.
Doesn't anybody see that posts like this are part of the problem? How exactly is complaining about something acting like a spoiled child throwing a fit? It would be like calling customers who were complaining about defective products as the same thing. Very unprofessional.
Not really the procedures for querying an infraction are posted in a couple of different places in various stickies.
Threads like this, this and this, aren't much more that someone whinging than they have been warned and deciding to air there grievances publicly. Locking them is perfectly correct as nothing constructive is likely to come out of them.
Admittedly the sadistic side of me does scream make these guys Mods for a while instead of banning them and let them see how hard a job it is.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
Not really the procedures for querying an infraction are posted in a couple of different places in various stickies.
Threads like this, this and this, aren't much more that someone whinging than they have been warned and deciding to air there grievances publicly. Locking them is perfectly correct as nothing constructive is likely to come out of them.
Admittedly the sadistic side of me does scream make these guys Mods for a while instead of banning them and let them see how hard a job it is.
This. Additionally, the way to discuss problems you have with general (read: Not that infraction you just got) moderator action is similar to the exchange Jethier and KPDaly16 just had (sorry to use you as an example I suppose =]). Some criticism of moderator action was announced, without any similarity to the threads Kahedron listed, and then answered. You should note this DOES NOT mean the mods have to change their actions. 1 person vote, a poll does not make, if you get what I mean. Something like this example seems a reasonable way to state your opinion to me. You don't always have to say "MODS SUCK LOL. MTGS SUCKS. I'M LEAVING." (also, I think it's a fair assumption that if you post like this, you weren't bringing anything to the table anyways, so no one will care) And if you continue to not like it, you can either agree to disagree, and continue following the rules you agreed to abide by when you registered, or you can leave.
TLDR; If you have a complaint about moderation that doesn't involve that infraction you just got, don't post a thread like the ones Kahedron listed above.
i know i'm new, but i was lurking without a membership for quite a while and i've been a member of countless forums aside from this one.
however, as i've been reading more and more of the mtgsalvation forums over the months, i've found that while they are "well" moderated, they are also overmoderated. i really get the sense that there are mods that are doing nothing but looking for infractions to bust peeps on.
when i look at a forum subtitle that says "Speak Your Mind regarding things around the forums." and there are loads of locked threads, it speaks to the vibe of the community and the attitude of the mods.
so far, as a new member, i've found the members to be very civil and for the most part well spoken (aside from the constant your/you're mistakes :p) and the mods to be overzealous and a tad bit anal.
this really keeps me from posting more than i would like, because i certainly like a spirited debate with some goodnatured insults and i know that i would be jumped on by a mod immediately for the way i would conduct myself naturally. i guess many would just say that the rules and the mods are doing their jobs, but i think they are just stifling good discussion and lightly treading on free speech issues. of course, this forum is a privilege to post in, not an intrinsic right and the site owner and mods can conduct it how they like.
i guess i just get a bit of a sour taste in my mouth after every visit, even though i keep coming back because the knowledgeable players provide much helpful information.
Well, this might be straying off topic, but I don't see how the mod's doing their job is "overmoderation."
It's the mod's job to enforce the rules. If a thread goes to far off course, a mod locks it. Someone breaks the rules, the mod's infract that person. I mean, it seems to me that people that are suggesting that the mod's "lighten up" are really saying that mod's should ignore the rules at their own discretion.
I know a lot of people here probably think that the forums would be a better place if the mod's just ignored a flame or something because they felt the person being flamed "deserved it."
And you know what, they might be, but that's not the way the mod's roll on salvation. You break the rules here, you pay the price. The mod's do not play favorites. Some people don't seem to get that.
I think the mods do a fantastic job, usually above and beyond the call of duty, when they keep threads on track and the like. When Rancored_Elf's card value thread starts talking about strategy and a mod comes in and gets it back on track, that's golden.
What some fail at, quite dismally in fact, is allowing their opinion to dictate how a thread should continue and then the sheer audacity of closing threads. There are a very few who are like this and in fact I can only think of one mod in particular who is guilty of this arrogant approach to moderating.
Visit the speculation forum, and you'll find mods jump in and end threads they "feel" are not worthy of speculation.
Moderation is not a playground for your opinion.
I quote this post because I feel it sums up my thoughts very well. Moderation on MTGS is in general very good. There are a very few cases of bad judgements, though.
Also, I feel sometimes the moderators may have the roles of both judge and jury. I have seen examples where mods have participated in heated debates, putting in a last remark, then suddenly closed the thread for being "a waste". IMO, a mod involved in a debate should not be the one to close the thread, because that mod is no longer objective. I guess the mods have some guidelines for cases like this.
And yes, the speculation forum is especially bad, because the mods there decide what is "productive" and "unproductive" speculation.
And yes, the speculation forum is especially bad, because the mods there decide what is "productive" and "unproductive" speculation.
Keeping your threads open in the Speculation forum is actually pretty straightforward: post intelligent threads with well-written OPs containing well-documented evidence for interesting theories, and do so respectfully. A non-redundant thread that has evidence supplied and a thread-starter who posts politely is almost never going to get locked.
We're still tweaking the level of moderation that forum gets over time, of course, to try to keep signal-to-noise ratio high while still not shutting down valid discussions. Best any of us can promise is to look at what works and what doesn't and learn from it going forward.
Just to add to the case, I may be mistaken, but from what I have seen, the Rumor Mill is probably one of, if not, the hardest sections to moderate because of all the threads that are started, and each individual post that may, or may not be warning/infraction worthy.
Keeping your threads open in the Speculation forum is actually pretty straightforward: post intelligent threads with well-written OPs containing well-documented evidence for interesting theories, and do so respectfully. A non-redundant thread that has evidence supplied and a thread-starter who posts politely is almost never going to get locked.
Well, by looking at the first page in the Speculation forum it is clear that this guideline isn't followed at all. Many of the threads contain no evidence or reasoning whatsoever, a large number of threads are wishful theories with little or no documentation. Only a minority provide interesting theories based on snippets from articles and other info.
Has there been any talk about deleting the rules subsection to untie the mods hands so they can more effectively go after problem members and not have to wait for them to break the rules?
Has there been any talk about deleting the rules subsection to untie the mods hands so they can more effectively go after problem members and not have to wait for them to break the rules?
You're saying "Let's suspend the rules so that mods can go to town on them".
Hey, guess what. You just suggested dictatorial measures.
With civil liberties suspended, the government instituted mass arrests of Communists, including all of the Communist parliamentary delegates.
I'm not going to invoke Godwin's Law by calling you anything, but it should be obvious who I am referring to.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[I was permabanned and all I got to show for it was .... well, nothing.]
The increased predictability of moderator behavior, as well as the ability to stop some problems before they even start, means that the rules aren't disappearing anytime soon.
We are discussing some revisions that we think will help, but doing away with them wholesale is simply not on the table.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
Of all the Magic fansites I have looked over, this one keeps the conversation the most relevant overall (in my opinion).
The nature of the internet in general leads to people making several stupid/empty posts every second, and digging through those for relevant information can be quite a headache. Worse still, it's becoming increasingly popular to "hijack" other topics on forums to turn them into some playground for silly net memes or fads.
And most system moderators will not bat an eye at it, for whatever reason there might be.
On MTGS, I can look into even a 200+ post topic and find more than a couple of good posts and discussion, often well past the first few pages.
Certainly, the system isn't perfect (anyone expecting perfection has some seriously misguided standards. We're all human here.) but compared to most other game-related sites (Magic or not), Salvation maintains a rather high standard for post quality.
On the other hand, I too often have trouble revising my post because I am not as knowledgeable about the game as I once was (life kind of gets in the way of Magic now, yay?), and my ability to carry on relevant conversation is often quite limited. Hence, low post-count density.
In a round-about way, I actually fear the mods to some degree! It's bizarre.
Regardless, I enjoy reading topics on this site because it is well-moderated, even if I cannot respond properly.
i think the mods do a great job. I learned my lessons early at this play on what not to do. i started out trading and got my first infraction on the same day. I learned from that mistake and never looked back
I think some of the rules are pretty strict here, but it is what it is kind of thing, take it or leave it, and if you don't choose either of those options than you get escorted away. It's kind of like the "my house, my rules" sort of thing.
I think some of the rules are pretty strict here, but it is what it is kind of thing, take it or leave it, and if you don't choose either of those options than you get escorted away. It's kind of like the "my house, my rules" sort of thing.
Yes, but mods are humans. They aren't just "Bad Word" Elementals. They care about the forum, thats why they do their jobs. But what if their job is what is intefering with the developement of these forums (This made me think of "I Robot"). Everything seems fine with the mods except the anti "Backseat modding" things.
Backseat modding maybe be bad. But the problem is what they consider backseat modding. You can't even help a new member. Posts like this should not happen. You shouldn't be scared of letting someone else know the rules because you are afraid of breaking them to teach the new members. That is counter productive...
Backseat modding maybe be bad. But the problem is what they consider backseat modding. You can't even help a new member. Posts like this should not happen. You shouldn't be scared of letting someone else know the rules because you are afraid of breaking them to teach the new members. That is counter productive...
The problem is that the new guy has no reason to listen to you - if we're all lucky, he goes "oooh" and fixes the problem, but most of the time it starts a load of whining. On the other hand, if you report it, we can make sure the user either reads the rules, or directs his whining at us... and sometimes, the user didn't even break a rule! If you tell him not to do something and you're wrong, don't you see a problem there?
You can always PM users, though. That has the same problems as above, but it doesn't spill them on the forums.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO "I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
Doesn't anybody see that posts like this are part of the problem? How exactly is complaining about something acting like a spoiled child throwing a fit? It would be like calling customers who were complaining about defective products as the same thing. Very unprofessional.
Not really the procedures for querying an infraction are posted in a couple of different places in various stickies.
Threads like this, this and this, aren't much more that someone whinging than they have been warned and deciding to air there grievances publicly. Locking them is perfectly correct as nothing constructive is likely to come out of them.
Admittedly the sadistic side of me does scream make these guys Mods for a while instead of banning them and let them see how hard a job it is.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
This. Additionally, the way to discuss problems you have with general (read: Not that infraction you just got) moderator action is similar to the exchange Jethier and KPDaly16 just had (sorry to use you as an example I suppose =]). Some criticism of moderator action was announced, without any similarity to the threads Kahedron listed, and then answered. You should note this DOES NOT mean the mods have to change their actions. 1 person vote, a poll does not make, if you get what I mean. Something like this example seems a reasonable way to state your opinion to me. You don't always have to say "MODS SUCK LOL. MTGS SUCKS. I'M LEAVING." (also, I think it's a fair assumption that if you post like this, you weren't bringing anything to the table anyways, so no one will care) And if you continue to not like it, you can either agree to disagree, and continue following the rules you agreed to abide by when you registered, or you can leave.
TLDR; If you have a complaint about moderation that doesn't involve that infraction you just got, don't post a thread like the ones Kahedron listed above.
however, as i've been reading more and more of the mtgsalvation forums over the months, i've found that while they are "well" moderated, they are also overmoderated. i really get the sense that there are mods that are doing nothing but looking for infractions to bust peeps on.
when i look at a forum subtitle that says "Speak Your Mind regarding things around the forums." and there are loads of locked threads, it speaks to the vibe of the community and the attitude of the mods.
so far, as a new member, i've found the members to be very civil and for the most part well spoken (aside from the constant your/you're mistakes :p) and the mods to be overzealous and a tad bit anal.
this really keeps me from posting more than i would like, because i certainly like a spirited debate with some goodnatured insults and i know that i would be jumped on by a mod immediately for the way i would conduct myself naturally. i guess many would just say that the rules and the mods are doing their jobs, but i think they are just stifling good discussion and lightly treading on free speech issues. of course, this forum is a privilege to post in, not an intrinsic right and the site owner and mods can conduct it how they like.
i guess i just get a bit of a sour taste in my mouth after every visit, even though i keep coming back because the knowledgeable players provide much helpful information.
cheers
It's the mod's job to enforce the rules. If a thread goes to far off course, a mod locks it. Someone breaks the rules, the mod's infract that person. I mean, it seems to me that people that are suggesting that the mod's "lighten up" are really saying that mod's should ignore the rules at their own discretion.
I know a lot of people here probably think that the forums would be a better place if the mod's just ignored a flame or something because they felt the person being flamed "deserved it."
And you know what, they might be, but that's not the way the mod's roll on salvation. You break the rules here, you pay the price. The mod's do not play favorites. Some people don't seem to get that.
spam warning
I quote this post because I feel it sums up my thoughts very well. Moderation on MTGS is in general very good. There are a very few cases of bad judgements, though.
Also, I feel sometimes the moderators may have the roles of both judge and jury. I have seen examples where mods have participated in heated debates, putting in a last remark, then suddenly closed the thread for being "a waste". IMO, a mod involved in a debate should not be the one to close the thread, because that mod is no longer objective. I guess the mods have some guidelines for cases like this.
And yes, the speculation forum is especially bad, because the mods there decide what is "productive" and "unproductive" speculation.
Keeping your threads open in the Speculation forum is actually pretty straightforward: post intelligent threads with well-written OPs containing well-documented evidence for interesting theories, and do so respectfully. A non-redundant thread that has evidence supplied and a thread-starter who posts politely is almost never going to get locked.
We're still tweaking the level of moderation that forum gets over time, of course, to try to keep signal-to-noise ratio high while still not shutting down valid discussions. Best any of us can promise is to look at what works and what doesn't and learn from it going forward.
Overall, I think the mods do a fair job.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
Well, by looking at the first page in the Speculation forum it is clear that this guideline isn't followed at all. Many of the threads contain no evidence or reasoning whatsoever, a large number of threads are wishful theories with little or no documentation. Only a minority provide interesting theories based on snippets from articles and other info.
You're saying "Let's suspend the rules so that mods can go to town on them".
Hey, guess what. You just suggested dictatorial measures.
I'm not going to invoke Godwin's Law by calling you anything, but it should be obvious who I am referring to.
We are discussing some revisions that we think will help, but doing away with them wholesale is simply not on the table.
Oh man this is a funny post. This isn't somewhere that you get civil liberties, it is a forum targeted toward children.
I. Age distribution
12-15 16-19 20-23 24-27 28-31 32-35 36-39 40-43 44+
18.6% 26.6% 21.5% 12.4% 13.6% 4.0% 1.7% 1.1% 0.6%
What would constitute as children is a laughably small percentage, Hunt.
Don't feed the trolls, please.
(Also known as Xenphire)
The nature of the internet in general leads to people making several stupid/empty posts every second, and digging through those for relevant information can be quite a headache. Worse still, it's becoming increasingly popular to "hijack" other topics on forums to turn them into some playground for silly net memes or fads.
And most system moderators will not bat an eye at it, for whatever reason there might be.
On MTGS, I can look into even a 200+ post topic and find more than a couple of good posts and discussion, often well past the first few pages.
Certainly, the system isn't perfect (anyone expecting perfection has some seriously misguided standards. We're all human here.) but compared to most other game-related sites (Magic or not), Salvation maintains a rather high standard for post quality.
On the other hand, I too often have trouble revising my post because I am not as knowledgeable about the game as I once was (life kind of gets in the way of Magic now, yay?), and my ability to carry on relevant conversation is often quite limited. Hence, low post-count density.
In a round-about way, I actually fear the mods to some degree! It's bizarre.
Regardless, I enjoy reading topics on this site because it is well-moderated, even if I cannot respond properly.
I was unaware that 45.2% was laughably small.
You shouldn't have to, since all we do is uphold the rules. We don't arbitrarily punish posters on a whim. Or do we......:p
(Seriously, we don't. We're posters here, just like everyone else.)
Yes, but mods are humans. They aren't just "Bad Word" Elementals. They care about the forum, thats why they do their jobs. But what if their job is what is intefering with the developement of these forums (This made me think of "I Robot"). Everything seems fine with the mods except the anti "Backseat modding" things.
Backseat modding maybe be bad. But the problem is what they consider backseat modding. You can't even help a new member. Posts like this should not happen. You shouldn't be scared of letting someone else know the rules because you are afraid of breaking them to teach the new members. That is counter productive...
The problem is that the new guy has no reason to listen to you - if we're all lucky, he goes "oooh" and fixes the problem, but most of the time it starts a load of whining. On the other hand, if you report it, we can make sure the user either reads the rules, or directs his whining at us... and sometimes, the user didn't even break a rule! If you tell him not to do something and you're wrong, don't you see a problem there?
You can always PM users, though. That has the same problems as above, but it doesn't spill them on the forums.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO
"I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
Just curious, but all I've seen you do since your overclan issue got dismissed as being silly is troll the staff. Is there a reason for that?