Yeah, and guess what? Sending people messages does not help. I tried.
If that doesn't help, then why would posting "ooooh you broke the rules" help any more? ;p And if it doesn't help, then you're just spamming up the forum whining about rule-breaking when you should be reporting it for us to deal with.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO "I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
Two pages of waxing not so eloquent about moderators seems a bit excessive. Maybe you (by "you", I don't mean anyone specifically, just generically) should take a deep breath, realize that it's a message board, and move on. Or, at the very least, not take anything you see here seriously, regardless of the fact that online Magic discussion is clearly SRS BSNSS.
And, to be stereotypical of posters who suggest people get some perspective on message boards, I also recommend playing the new MMORPG Outside, brought to you by the creators of the smash hit IRL.
The point is that it's just a message board, and it's not something to get bent out of shape about at all. If you find yourself getting upset about something taking place here, take a self-imposed break from the place for a while and do other stuff. It'll do you a world of good.
Two pages of waxing not so eloquent about moderators seems a bit excessive. Maybe you (by "you", I don't mean anyone specifically, just generically) should take a deep breath, realize that it's a message board, and move on. Or, at the very least, not take anything you see here seriously, regardless of the fact that online Magic discussion is clearly SRS BSNSS.
And, to be stereotypical of posters who suggest people get some perspective on message boards, I also recommend playing the new MMORPG Outside, brought to you by the creators of the smash hit IRL.
The point is that it's just a message board, and it's not something to get bent out of shape about at all. If you find yourself getting upset about something taking place here, take a self-imposed break from the place for a while and do other stuff. It'll do you a world of good.
That goes for the moderators too. There are people who love their "job" too much. And this is fact.
Arkay: Listen up Susan, I've been doing this for years, even before you were a jigglypuff/smiley hybrid. This is not just today or last week. Years.
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[I was permabanned and all I got to show for it was .... well, nothing.]
Says "JigglypuffOhaigirl" Charlene. Why I am Dr. Cox-ing him? Because he -defends- a -wrongful- decision. This is not about being right for the wrong reasons or being wrong for the right reasons. It's just being wrong.
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[I was permabanned and all I got to show for it was .... well, nothing.]
Says "JigglypuffOhaigirl" Charlene. Why I am Dr. Cox-ing him? Because he -defends- a -wrongful- decision. This is not about being right for the wrong reasons or being wrong for the right reasons. It's just being wrong.
I defend nothing in this thread. I'm simply noting that you appear to just be out to troll the staff.
It's not about this thread alone. You made that clear when you said I was trolling the staff. Forget your own words that quickly, Samantha?
If you're speaking to the Abhi Koh issue, then I fully believe your entire reason for involving yourself/caring is that it is another opportunity to argue with a staff member you find fault with.
It could have been literally ANY issue, you'd still be involving yourself to be contrary.
One thing that I find odd about the Ruling section in particular is that you get infracted for mentioning a new set. It makes sense why some of it shouldn't be brought up (no comprehensive rules for people to reference), but sometimes you get that odd one that is easily answered that still leads to infractions.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
One thing that I find odd about the Ruling section in particular is that you get infracted for mentioning a new set. It makes sense why some of it shouldn't be brought up (no comprehensive rules for people to reference), but sometimes you get that odd one that is easily answered that still leads to infractions.
There's nothing odd about how that section is moderated. If the rules say not to do something then that's exactly what it means, not "Do not do this, unless you feel you're a special case and entitled". Making exceptions, especially during Rumor Season, is a slippery slope and the mods already have enough to deal with.
The long and short of it is: If people read the rules, they won't get warned or infracted.
I hate to point something like this out, but I've noticed that many of the complaint threads have stemmed mostly from users with <100 posts and/or a join date of late 2009-2010.
No offense, but I sense a correlation between someone who just registered on the site with getting pissed off at how the site operates.
It could be correlated with the people that are used to the forums at magicthegathering.com.
Once those forums started sucking, a lot of people left. And they probably ended up here, and aren't used to the moderation that goes on here as compared to the other site.
It could be correlated with the people that are used to the forums at magicthegathering.com.
Once those forums started sucking, a lot of people left. And they probably ended up here, and aren't used to the moderation that goes on here as compared to the other site.
A very likely case. However, it doesn't excuse them from reading the rules.
i just got called a troll for expressing this opinion:
ugh, this is why i kind of hate the rules that we have since i've returned to MTG. the last set i played with before zendikar was ice age, what with all the interrupts and all.
now that i've come back and there's this stack thing, which we all just used intuitively anyway, as well as "priority", it seems counter-intuitive.
if you think about it, the game is a "duel" (two player, anyway) and in a duel, you don't let your opponent shoot first then wait for your your shot before you take it. fastest draw wins, right? so, in my mind, once my opponent's summon spell resolves, and the stack is empty, it should be fair game. i shouldn't have to wait for my opponent to pass priority to me so i can tap an artifact or play an instant. i should be able to do those things because they are at instant speed. priority is only a tacked on rule in my mind.
i know i'm just griping, and i realize that the priority rules serve a purpose, i.e. in sanctioned play, but i think they are needlessly complex and restrictive and take away the original flavour and flow of MTG. when we used to play we had summons and interrupts and instants and sorceries and you knew when you could play each and the game had the simplicity/complexity dichotomy which is the hallmark of many classic games of strategy.
one of the reasons i don't and won't play in tournaments or FNM is because MTG seems to have evolved- or perhaps devolved- into a morass of rules aimed at keeping tournament play fair. to me it bogs down the game in a way i don't like.
wtf, i say, wtf
edited to add in a moderator showing how trolling is done:
please apply for the gutter we need more posters like you sincerely a caring and kind and personal writing forums moderator that's name is stifle as you can see upon you recieving this PM oh and hey look semantics you are reading more and more hahaha
Neither this thread nor the Community Issues forum is for complaining about a warning or infraction you received. Take it to PM or the moderator's helpdesk.
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I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
It was only a matter of time before this thread turned into the exact opposite of what it was intended to be.
I knew that as soon as this thread went past it's first page, people who don't read OP's were going to go "oh, this is the thread to complain about the mods in? Awesome!"
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I'll be sad if people don't start calling The Chain Veil "Fleetwood Mac."
The mod's do a very good job, but there will always be those that disagree. The problem is that normally the REASON they disagree is because they don't understand how Salvation works. That misunderstanding often leads them to make threads in this forum instead of posts in the mod subforum like they are supposed to.
People that don't understand the rules and get in trouble tend to continue to misunderstand the rules as they complain about that trouble.
In my opinion, it's good to have a thread like Strict Moderation? to suck up those threads people, like Zom B, would likely create, into single posts. It makes it so people that want to ***** have a "way station" to go to so they can be directed to the correct place, also it cuts down on the number of spam threads in SYM from "X" to 1.
I realize I'm the new blood in all of these posts, but I feel like something should be addressed. I've been browsing these forums for a couple weeks, so I may not have learned every rule and I may not have remembered every rule I read. After the learning stages, I felt it was time to contribute a post to the community. I was shocked that my very first post was an infraction (or whatever they're called). I was even more shocked that there was no guidance from the moderators for my behavior.
Let me tell you all a bit about myself.
I'm a student, but I also hold two jobs. One of my jobs is being a Resident Assistant, where I'm a "moderator" of sorts for everyone who lives on my floor. If there's a question, concern, conflict, or anything in between, my residents will come to me for help. If I see behavior that shouldn't be going on, I address it. There is one clear difference between how we operate, though: The moderators of this board clearly operate on a punishment-based system, while the Resident Assistants operate on a learning-based system. If someone makes a mistake here, they may lose the privilege of being part of the community for a period of time. If someone makes a mistake on my floor, they are informed of their mistake, why it was a mistake, what better options would have been, and they are thoroughly educated on the mistake. *EDIT: Every mistake is also explained in terms of how it affects the community, so the person who made their mistake could understand how they have an impact on other people.*
Is the system I operate on better than yours? No, I couldn't say that. I can say, though, that a community with less aggression towards their overseers is a much happier community.
When I received a private message telling me I had made a mistake, all it did was punish me and tell me what the mistake was. It didn't inform me about the right behavior, it didn't give me any suggestions on what to do instead... In effect, it gave me no reason to see the moderator who punished me as anything positive. They didn't educate me or give me a reason to believe in a moderator who was truly part of the community. They're just the bosses. And nobody likes bosses.
That being said, I'm sure you moderators are great people. Although we don't operate on a punishment-based system, there are obviously cases where punishment is the only option... I can tell you that the result is ALWAYS worse when we have to punish people. Some of the people who we punish won't talk to us, or will pretend we don't exist. I don't appreciate the attitude because it's my job that led me to act and not any personal bias against the person. So to whoever gave me an infraction: we have no qualms. To the entire community of moderators: I suggest reconsidering your system of moderating.
Every mistake is also explained in terms of how it affects the community, so the person who made their mistake could understand how they have an impact on other people.*
We shouldn't have to explain why trolling is bad, why spamming is bad and why other obvious rule breaking is bad with each infraction / warning we give. We are not here to hold the hands of members who don't read the rules. On the other hand, we're not out to specifically get people in trouble just for kicks. The checks and balances systems are called the forum rules. Follow them and we'll all get along fine. Break them and you'll be notified.
Some of the people who we punish won't talk to us, or will pretend we don't exist. I don't appreciate the attitude because it's my job that led me to act and not any personal bias against the person.
People can dislike us. People will dislike us. Nobody likes to be reprimanded. However astute posters like you will realize our policies aren't personal and won't hold our job against us. I've gotten my share of warnings / infractions in my day, and I've learned from them. Posters who are malcontented can dislike us all day, but in the end, their lack of forum etiquette falls squarely on them.
Is the system I operate on better than yours? No, I couldn't say that. I can say, though, that a community with less aggression towards their overseers is a much happier community.
This is a happy community. Thousands of people visit this site each day. Only a few get warnings / infractions. It's true, believe it or not. When people get warned or infracted, they take it personally. However it's not personal for us. I've had to warn / infract the same person multiple times for doing the same stuff again and again, and yet I have no animosity towards them. I'm doing my job, that's all. If they choose to hate me, that's on them. However as mods we don't set out to create ill will in the community.
We're all just here because we love MTG after all.
The reason why I object to this moderation of this site is that the moderators tend to take their sense of entitlement and run with it. In addition to the other well-founded complaints that the moderating team do not seem to be even internalizing in the least, I find it particularly objectionable when a moderator does something like lock a thread, but first inserts some kind of sarcastic or otherwise purposefully disdainful, condescending or offensive comment into it. Its never acceptable for moderation to taunt users. That makes your behavior as bad as what you're reprimanding.
Here's the part where you quote this post and tell me why every sentence is wrong, but really no one would complain if there was nothing to complain about, and I hope that, while you feel its necessary to bat aside every criticism that even-tempered and well-spoken users will have of you, you at least watch out for this kind of behavior and become more conscious of your role on mtgsalvation.
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If that doesn't help, then why would posting "ooooh you broke the rules" help any more? ;p And if it doesn't help, then you're just spamming up the forum whining about rule-breaking when you should be reporting it for us to deal with.
"Sufficiently advanced experience is indistinguishable from clairvoyance." -Carsten
"Ah those eyes, those horrible creepy eyes!" -Chaosof99
DCI Level 3 Judge & TO
"I do not consider myself a hero. I know only what the Vec teach:
justice must always be served and corruption must always be opposed."
Go read! I am one of the three authors of Cranial Insertion.
But seriously, if you can't remember "Woapalanne", just call me Eli.
EDIT: I don't mean like posting "you did something wrong" more stuff like: "There is an edit button so you don't have to poast a second time."
And, to be stereotypical of posters who suggest people get some perspective on message boards, I also recommend playing the new MMORPG Outside, brought to you by the creators of the smash hit IRL.
Features:
--No monthly fee!
--High resolution graphics!
--Massive world!
--Excellent NPC AI!
--PvP!
The point is that it's just a message board, and it's not something to get bent out of shape about at all. If you find yourself getting upset about something taking place here, take a self-imposed break from the place for a while and do other stuff. It'll do you a world of good.
That goes for the moderators too. There are people who love their "job" too much. And this is fact.
Arkay: Listen up Susan, I've been doing this for years, even before you were a jigglypuff/smiley hybrid. This is not just today or last week. Years.
I thought it was clear that I was directing that at everyone, including moderators. Perhaps not. Regardless, it was directed at pretty much everyone.
So you're avowedly doing this just to troll the staff?
Why are you Dr. Cox-ing him?
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Because people should clearly just pirate bad humour.
I defend nothing in this thread. I'm simply noting that you appear to just be out to troll the staff.
If you're speaking to the Abhi Koh issue, then I fully believe your entire reason for involving yourself/caring is that it is another opportunity to argue with a staff member you find fault with.
It could have been literally ANY issue, you'd still be involving yourself to be contrary.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
There's nothing odd about how that section is moderated. If the rules say not to do something then that's exactly what it means, not "Do not do this, unless you feel you're a special case and entitled". Making exceptions, especially during Rumor Season, is a slippery slope and the mods already have enough to deal with.
The long and short of it is: If people read the rules, they won't get warned or infracted.
(Also known as Xenphire)
It could be correlated with the people that are used to the forums at magicthegathering.com.
Once those forums started sucking, a lot of people left. And they probably ended up here, and aren't used to the moderation that goes on here as compared to the other site.
Team JewelsFromDeadGuys
A very likely case. However, it doesn't excuse them from reading the rules.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
wtf, i say, wtf
edited to add in a moderator showing how trolling is done:
I knew that as soon as this thread went past it's first page, people who don't read OP's were going to go "oh, this is the thread to complain about the mods in? Awesome!"
People that don't understand the rules and get in trouble tend to continue to misunderstand the rules as they complain about that trouble.
In my opinion, it's good to have a thread like Strict Moderation? to suck up those threads people, like Zom B, would likely create, into single posts. It makes it so people that want to ***** have a "way station" to go to so they can be directed to the correct place, also it cuts down on the number of spam threads in SYM from "X" to 1.
Let me tell you all a bit about myself.
I'm a student, but I also hold two jobs. One of my jobs is being a Resident Assistant, where I'm a "moderator" of sorts for everyone who lives on my floor. If there's a question, concern, conflict, or anything in between, my residents will come to me for help. If I see behavior that shouldn't be going on, I address it. There is one clear difference between how we operate, though: The moderators of this board clearly operate on a punishment-based system, while the Resident Assistants operate on a learning-based system. If someone makes a mistake here, they may lose the privilege of being part of the community for a period of time. If someone makes a mistake on my floor, they are informed of their mistake, why it was a mistake, what better options would have been, and they are thoroughly educated on the mistake. *EDIT: Every mistake is also explained in terms of how it affects the community, so the person who made their mistake could understand how they have an impact on other people.*
Is the system I operate on better than yours? No, I couldn't say that. I can say, though, that a community with less aggression towards their overseers is a much happier community.
When I received a private message telling me I had made a mistake, all it did was punish me and tell me what the mistake was. It didn't inform me about the right behavior, it didn't give me any suggestions on what to do instead... In effect, it gave me no reason to see the moderator who punished me as anything positive. They didn't educate me or give me a reason to believe in a moderator who was truly part of the community. They're just the bosses. And nobody likes bosses.
That being said, I'm sure you moderators are great people. Although we don't operate on a punishment-based system, there are obviously cases where punishment is the only option... I can tell you that the result is ALWAYS worse when we have to punish people. Some of the people who we punish won't talk to us, or will pretend we don't exist. I don't appreciate the attitude because it's my job that led me to act and not any personal bias against the person. So to whoever gave me an infraction: we have no qualms. To the entire community of moderators: I suggest reconsidering your system of moderating.
We shouldn't have to explain why trolling is bad, why spamming is bad and why other obvious rule breaking is bad with each infraction / warning we give. We are not here to hold the hands of members who don't read the rules. On the other hand, we're not out to specifically get people in trouble just for kicks. The checks and balances systems are called the forum rules. Follow them and we'll all get along fine. Break them and you'll be notified.
People can dislike us. People will dislike us. Nobody likes to be reprimanded. However astute posters like you will realize our policies aren't personal and won't hold our job against us. I've gotten my share of warnings / infractions in my day, and I've learned from them. Posters who are malcontented can dislike us all day, but in the end, their lack of forum etiquette falls squarely on them.
This is a happy community. Thousands of people visit this site each day. Only a few get warnings / infractions. It's true, believe it or not. When people get warned or infracted, they take it personally. However it's not personal for us. I've had to warn / infract the same person multiple times for doing the same stuff again and again, and yet I have no animosity towards them. I'm doing my job, that's all. If they choose to hate me, that's on them. However as mods we don't set out to create ill will in the community.
We're all just here because we love MTG after all.
Here's the part where you quote this post and tell me why every sentence is wrong, but really no one would complain if there was nothing to complain about, and I hope that, while you feel its necessary to bat aside every criticism that even-tempered and well-spoken users will have of you, you at least watch out for this kind of behavior and become more conscious of your role on mtgsalvation.