This is where I ask that you find and link examples as proof. If things are as you said, then it shouldn't be difficult for you to find them.
I had proof.... you know, a month ago, when I was suspended for being upset about it. It wasn't even my thread that was locked, I was just sick of mods being *****es.
Now, however, I am completely uninterested in finding you 'proof'. Maybe you can just take it on good faith that I'd have no motive in inventing something to disapprove of.
Or maybe you can write it off based on 'not having proof', feel content that yet another post in this thread has been disqualified as a legitimate complaint, and get back to your day. Whatever gets you through.
I had proof.... you know, a month ago, when I was suspended for being upset about it. It wasn't even my thread that was locked, I was just sick of mods being *****es.
Now, however, I am completely uninterested in finding you 'proof'. Maybe you can just take it on good faith that I'd have no motive in inventing something to disapprove of.
Or maybe you can write it off based on 'not having proof', feel content that yet another post in this thread has been disqualified as a legitimate complaint, and get back to your day. Whatever gets you through.
You made three threads complaining like a child about the moderators, and got rightfully suspended for it.
Were we the tyrants some suggest us to be, you would have been banned.
Lets look through your threads and see where your 'proof' is...
Thread #1:
Quote from Springheel »
Seriously, we literally all hate you and think you ruin an otherwise acceptable gathering of magic players. Its almost legendary how insanely bad and masturbatory the moderation on mtgsalvation is. I hope you realize what awful, arrogant douchebags you all seem to be.
Thread #2:
Quote from Springheel »
If this at all needed to be proven, notice that mere seconds after I posted this thread the first time, an overeager douchebag moderator frantically ejaculated as he deleted it and warned me. At the same time, my inbox hosted a number of people encouraging and agreeing with me. You know: secretly, since the moderation is so bad here that no one is allowed to talk about how bad the moderation is. Can you imagine the hodgepodge collection of failed players and frail geeks that makes up the power-hungry, internet-living base of this place's administration? Its startling that whomever is in charge would WANT his or her website to be completely ruined by the iron-clad power trips of a bunch of insecure douchebags, but there you have it: your moderating team, who have to feel like they are cool and in control here in order to make up for the serious inadequacies of their real lives. You guys suck, stop ruining everything for us, we could be having so much fun.
Thread #3:
Quote from Springheel »
I'm allowed to host a discussion with my fellow users of this site regarding our opinions on the moderation. Keep locking it, and I'll keep making it, I guess, but I'll do so with the knowledge that I am not breaking any rules. This is the appropriate forum for discussing this, and it absolutely needs to be discussed.
Nobody likes the moderation here except the moderators and the moderators' friends, who apparently get off vicariously on the modfagging 'leetness'. As I asserted in previous posts, it is truly legendary how bad the moderation is here. Take the series of people complaining about it in this very forum as indication. Of course I can just leave the site and call it a day like every other reasonable person who's not friends with administration or equally anal-retentive, but honestly I'd rather see how many people agree with me.
I don't see anything but a metric ton of inflammatory remarks and inaccuracies. No evidence, no pointing out a specific incident, just ranting.
When you suggest something, the burden of proof falls on you. I mean, it is not like you deserve to be taken at your word when throwing up tactless, immature rants like that in the past. Nothing we do here warrants that kind of response.
Act like an adult, and no one has a problem.
The rules aren't hard to follow, and the mods have no problem treating other members with the respect they deserve, but you need to point out things specifically, rather than making sweeping inaccurate generalizations and overreacting over small things.
I know why I was suspended, but what I didn't see was the quote where I complained about it? I know I flamed you, kids, the suspension was no surprise. I had to make a lot of threads to earn it.
The only thing I disagree with is that any of it was inaccurate. While nothing you do may warrant that kind of response, you sure did get it, didn't you? Sometimes, buddy, people are just mean.
And no, there is no burden of proof that falls on me. Why? I am not making a court case. I am not even asking that a specific anything be done. I'd just like to point out, in much less volatile language, that there are a few of you who are really doing a bad job and making the site rather undesirable. If you want proof, consult the opinions of other members in this thread. Basically, if it wasn't a moderator or a moderator's buddy with sixty bazillion posts, it was somebody complaining that they didn't like it here. Either recognize that or don't, but stop posting things as if you can actually argue with me about this. You can't. While I recognize that it may not be specifically you who is antagonistic and terrible, this does not mean that I am wrong.
I had proof.... you know, a month ago, when I was suspended for being upset about it. It wasn't even my thread that was locked, I was just sick of mods being *****es.
Now, however, I am completely uninterested in finding you 'proof'. Maybe you can just take it on good faith that I'd have no motive in inventing something to disapprove of.
Or maybe you can write it off based on 'not having proof', feel content that yet another post in this thread has been disqualified as a legitimate complaint, and get back to your day. Whatever gets you through.
See, the way you're tackling this is all wrong. When you're asked to support a position you take, you support it by showing evidence that proves what you're saying. That's how most of reality works.
The wrong way is where you are needlessly belligerent, refuse to provide anything substantial to what you've put forth, and then act like your the victim of some nefarious, shadowy scheme to abuse you. That's how politics works.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
Now, however, I am completely uninterested in finding you 'proof'.
If you're not willing to use the search button because it's too much bother, it should also be too much bother for you to complain.
Don't say "I want something to be done, but I don't care." The second half negates the first. If you care, find proof. If you don't care, don't complain.
Maybe you can just take it on good faith that I'd have no motive in inventing something to disapprove of.
*ah hem*
Why should we?
I see no reason to "trust" most people on the internet, and I don't see any reason to trust ANYONE that says they have proof of something, but don't feel like pulling it out.
I know why I was suspended, but what I didn't see was the quote where I complained about it? I know I flamed you, kids, the suspension was no surprise. I had to make a lot of threads to earn it.
That was each thread you posted, word for word. For the record, I am older, and much more mature and well-behaved than you, kid.
The only thing I disagree with is that any of it was inaccurate. While nothing you do may warrant that kind of response, you sure did get it, didn't you? Sometimes, buddy, people are just mean.
And no, there is no burden of proof that falls on me. Why? I am not making a court case. I am not even asking that a specific anything be done. I'd just like to point out, in much less volatile language, that there are a few of you who are really doing a bad job and making the site rather undesirable. If you want proof, consult the opinions of other members in this thread. Basically, if it wasn't a moderator or a moderator's buddy with sixty bazillion posts, it was somebody complaining that they didn't like it here. Either recognize that or don't, but stop posting things as if you can actually argue with me about this. You can't. While I recognize that it may not be specifically you who is antagonistic and terrible, this does not mean that I am wrong.
The people who complain are among the EXTREME minority in this site.
If we had a problem, this thread wouldn't be as incredibly slow as it is.
We have thousands upon thousands of members who have been doing just fine with how we conduct things here for years.
The burden of proof falls on you because you are trying to stir things up here but are completely and utterly unable to prove a single thing you say holds any water.
There is no epidemic on this site of how the mods act.
We don't ban people just because we can.
We don't humiliate members for making simple mistakes.
We don't belittle and push down the posters with every action we make.
We have rules here.
We make sure people follow them, and have done so for years.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
News and spoiler contributor for GatheringMagic.com
If this site is so undesirable, why do you keep returning after each suspension?
Its so I can post in all the awesome card talk that happens here.
Oh, wait, I'm only posting in this thread? Damn, there must be some reason....
You made multiple threads trolling the mods, were rightfully punished, and now hold a grudge against us. It's as simple as that.
That's really stupid. No, I don't hold a grudge against you for suspending me that one time I was trying to get suspended. Its pretty much ok with me, thanks.
Now you can't even find proof to support your own claims of our supposed tyranny.
I really don't understand why I have to, nor why there needs to be a throng of mods holding each others' hands and taking turns telling me I'm wrong because I refuse to find evidence. My opinion is an opinion, and its legitimate. I promise that I really feel how I say I feel. I don't want to give you evidence to prove that my feelings are legitimate. Action is evidence. I'm sure that whatever I post will simply be met by some moderator's self-conscious rebuttal anyhow, so what good is it? I really just wanted to post and make my feelings on this known. You can argue with it all you want, but its not going to do anything.
However, in the interest of being at least cooperative, I'll outline the situation that really set me off:
It was about the time that the standard forums underwent rhinoplasty. People were posting threads, they were being moved or deleted without notice, and so they'd post a thread to ask wtf was going on. iRebel was the mod in question who would lock these threads and call the users morons for even posting them. It was really antagonistic, and it displayed exactly the type of behavior that my big, overblown fire breath was talking about. I can't actually say I have a problem with literally anyone else at all. I'm sure you're all reasonable people, but this vapid defensiveness and the fact that you'll regardless condone any behavior anyone would complain about pretty much implicates you in a lightly guilty party. Deal with that how you want to, I'm really not interested in explaining it any more.
I have to agree with Seds when I say that the mods are here to uphold the rules and have no innate desire to simply punish posters on a whim.
I'm a mod too, actually. Different site, similar size to this one. I know how it is.
That was each thread you posted, word for word. For the record, I am older, and much more mature and well-behaved than you, kid.
Dude, you're cookie monster.
The people who complain are among the EXTREME minority in this site.
If we had a problem, this thread wouldn't be as incredibly slow as it is.
We have thousands upon thousands of members who have been doing just fine with how we conduct things here for years.
I don't know if many people care enough to complain. They probably just log off and don't return. However, I understand that this is an active and successful forum, so if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Gotcha.
The burden of proof falls on you because you are trying to stir things up here but are completely and utterly unable to prove a single thing you say holds any water.
I really just wanted to speak my mind, more for me than you. I know that no matter what I say, even if I had documented evidence of moderators on mtgsalvation being the biggest douchebags you've ever seen, it won't change anything. Why would it? Even if you do have a problem, who ☺☺☺☺ing cares, in the end? Nobody, obviously, you apparently don't have enough complaints in this thread, so its like there's no problem at all.
As an extension of this response, I'd like to apologize if I've frustrated you or anyone else reading this. I realize that I'm a pretty rude person, but cookie monster and laquatus; I really don't think I've ever seen the either of you doing anything objectionable, and I seem to recall that you're both pretty valuable posters with good opinions on things. Its not my intention to drape my ridiculous blanket statements over anyone who is genuinely a good guy, I just got a little riled up and decided that I wouldn't even aim when I fired. If I post here again for whatever reason, maybe to discuss edh or something, I hope you won't hold it against me.
AND FOR the generic sheep who decided to herd into this thread and type "eVidence?!", baaa more you silly livestock. In unison, now.
I find it odd anyone would take the time to repeatedly harp on an issue, but when mods ask for evidence relating to a user's claims, suddenly they don't "have to" give evidence, pull the invisible supporters card to back up the holes in their arguments and repeat themselves ad nauseum. Yeah, it's your opinion - that's nice and all, but you also have zero credibility, because of how you've chosen to present yourself and your issue with whatever. If you don't want to give evidence and feel it's not worth your time (probably because said evidence actually doesn't exist) then drop it and save the cheap cop-outs. Calling people sheep because they don't agree with your faulty logic and you're beside yourself, doesn't give your "opinion" any more credibility, either.
I'm still waiting to hear why when someone breaks the rules and action is taken against them, it's the mod's fault and people don't expect to be held accountable for their actions. That's basically what every complaint in this thread is. I find it kind of amusing that people like to try and act like they've been victimized when it's all a result of poor decision making on their own part.
I'm still waiting to hear why when someone breaks the rules and action is taken against them, it's the mod's fault and people don't expect to be held accountable for their actions. That's basically what every complaint in this thread is.
* Chaotix shrugs.
I guess while you wait for someone to do that, I'll wait for you to actually read what you felt like throwing your two cents into the whine bucket about.
Thank you for bringing up a specific instance.
Yes, the standard changes was a big stress on everyone.
Staff, members, it wasn't necessarily easy on anyone involved.
The standard mods suddenly found themselves doing much more in way of moderating the standard boards, and some members were trying to go against the current.
We got past it, but it wasn't without a bump or two along the way.
Thank you for toning down the rhetoric though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
News and spoiler contributor for GatheringMagic.com
I'm a new guy so you don't have to actually give a ☺☺☺☺ about what I'm saying, but y'all asked for an actual example, so here goes:
It's not that I think the mods of this site are much, much too strict, it's more that in my case their behaviour strikes me as a little... odd. I'm not a victim by any means, and no harm has been done, but let me show you what I mean:
When I made this thread I hadn't really posted here much, and since forum layout is a little confusing, I posted it in EDH-discussion instead of Developing EDH.
'course the thread should be moved, and moved it was. But then two things happened, which I have never ever seen or encountered on another forum before. I recieved a PM with red warning text stating that I had recieved a warning. Furthermore, my initial post was marked with the same red text, saying that "the poster had been warned for breaking the rules."
Isn't that a little... heavy, just for being a newb and posting in the wrong ☺☺☺☺ing forum? Also - it's not always the newb's fault, sometimes the layout of your forum just isn't that good
As you can see, in my example, no harm done really, and my thread thankfully got a great deal of really good replies (thanks for that), but it wasn't really a warm welcome for me, and I can understand why less relaxed fellas might take issue on such a hardcore greeting for such a diminuitive mistake.
I'm a new guy so you don't have to actually give a ☺☺☺☺ about what I'm saying, but y'all asked for an actual example, so here goes:
It's not that I think the mods of this site are much, much too strict, it's more that in my case their behaviour strikes me as a little... odd. I'm not a victim by any means, and no harm has been done, but let me show you what I mean:
When I made this thread I hadn't really posted here much, and since forum layout is a little confusing, I posted it in EDH-discussion instead of Developing EDH.
'course the thread should be moved, and moved it was. But then two things happened, which I have never ever seen or encountered on another forum before. I recieved a PM with red warning text stating that I had recieved a warning. Furthermore, my initial post was marked with the same red text, saying that "the poster had been warned for breaking the rules."
Isn't that a little... heavy, just for being a newb and posting in the wrong ☺☺☺☺ing forum? Also - it's not always the newb's fault, sometimes the layout of your forum just isn't that good
As you can see, in my example, no harm done really, and my thread thankfully got a great deal of really good replies (thanks for that), but it wasn't really a warm welcome for me, and I can understand why less relaxed fellas might take issue on such a hardcore greeting for such a diminuitive mistake.
I clicked your link and it appears you edited out the modded text.
I would like to chime in on accord of the "not newb-friendly" problem with the site that was brought up. For the most part, I find that the moderators of this site do a fine job, but this one particular aspect I find is a little too harsh, and I would like to see a little more leniency given to newer posters.
To cite an example, I too once posted a topic in the wrong forum, as one of my first posts. I was moderated, and the message I recieved to go along with it lambasted me, and the moderator talked down to me like I was a moron for posting in the wrong forum. I replied to the moderator via PM, and explained my offense at their harsh words. The response I recieved was as equally offensive as the moderation message.
Now, I've been a member of many forums, and even moderated a few myself. Had I not been as experienced a poster, I would have left this site entirely due to the overly harsh comments I recieved. That one act alone could be enough to make someone leave the cite if they took it more personally. I don't think missing out on this site is worth it over a moderation.
Obviously I don't take any of it personally, but seeing as others have also posted this problem, I feel the topic should at least be discussed. Perhaps something could be done to make lighter moderations feel more... light?
Its so I can post in all the awesome card talk that happens here.
Oh, wait, I'm only posting in this thread? Damn, there must be some reason....
To complain about the moderators about their tyranny, without attempting to prove it? No? Well then I don't know either.
That's really stupid. No, I don't hold a grudge against you for suspending me that one time I was trying to get suspended. Its pretty much ok with me, thanks.
So what are you holding a grudge against?
I really don't understand why I have to, nor why there needs to be a throng of mods holding each others' hands and taking turns telling me I'm wrong because I refuse to find evidence. My opinion is an opinion, and its legitimate. I promise that I really feel how I say I feel. I don't want to give you evidence to prove that my feelings are legitimate. Action is evidence. I'm sure that whatever I post will simply be met by some moderator's self-conscious rebuttal anyhow, so what good is it? I really just wanted to post and make my feelings on this known. You can argue with it all you want, but its not going to do anything.
However, in the interest of being at least cooperative, I'll outline the situation that really set me off:
It was about the time that the standard forums underwent rhinoplasty. People were posting threads, they were being moved or deleted without notice, and so they'd post a thread to ask wtf was going on. iRebel was the mod in question who would lock these threads and call the users morons for even posting them. It was really antagonistic, and it displayed exactly the type of behavior that my big, overblown fire breath was talking about. I can't actually say I have a problem with literally anyone else at all. I'm sure you're all reasonable people, but this vapid defensiveness and the fact that you'll regardless condone any behavior anyone would complain about pretty much implicates you in a lightly guilty party. Deal with that how you want to, I'm really not interested in explaining it any more.
Here's what you're saying.
You: "Mods did X action."
Us: "Would you please show us evidence of this?"
You: "No."
The way you defend a claim is to provide evidence of that claim. You saying the mods are tyrannical is a claim. If iRebel did infact call users names like "moron", I'd agree with you that that was wrong, but you have no evidence, so, I'm inclined to disagree. You saying that someone else did something, IS NOT AN OPINION. Additionally, as far as I can tell, you have not shown any other evidence that that sort of moderator activity is the norm, rather than the exception, which iRebel's action (if true) appears to be to me.
Dude, you're cookie monster.
Excellent supporting evidence.
I don't know if many people care enough to complain. They probably just log off and don't return. However, I understand that this is an active and successful forum, so if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Gotcha.
Well as long as you're talking about other people complaining, they might have some success if maybe they didn't throw the tantrums (see: actively seeking to break the rules) I frequently see them throw, and actually supported their arguments by pointing out posts which showed the moderator action which they disagreed with, which again, someone has failed to do. If for instance, iRebel did indeed post a mod action to a thread calling someone a moron, I would complain, and question if any sort of punishment was dealt out to him. But again, you have not supported this claim.
I really just wanted to speak my mind, more for me than you. I know that no matter what I say, even if I had documented evidence of moderators on mtgsalvation being the biggest douchebags you've ever seen, it won't change anything. Why would it? Even if you do have a problem, who ☺☺☺☺ing cares, in the end? Nobody, obviously, you apparently don't have enough complaints in this thread, so its like there's no problem at all.
As an extension of this response, I'd like to apologize if I've frustrated you or anyone else reading this. I realize that I'm a pretty rude person, but cookie monster and laquatus; I really don't think I've ever seen the either of you doing anything objectionable, and I seem to recall that you're both pretty valuable posters with good opinions on things. Its not my intention to drape my ridiculous blanket statements over anyone who is genuinely a good guy, I just got a little riled up and decided that I wouldn't even aim when I fired. If I post here again for whatever reason, maybe to discuss edh or something, I hope you won't hold it against me.
First of all, you have a blog where you can "speak [your] mind, more for [you] than [the mods/anyone else]". Second, no one cares about a complaint that has no supporting evidence. It's like this in the judicial system as well.
Second, no mod is (read: should) hold it against you. It's like going to court over a speeding ticket, then getting back on the road. As long as you follow the law, you won't get pulled over again. Will you be watched? Only if you make it a habit to break the law.
AND FOR the generic sheep who decided to herd into this thread and type "eVidence?!", baaa more you silly livestock. In unison, now.
Yes, baaa indeed.
You talk a whole lot about the other people you think have been persecuted by the mods. If they don't care enough to lodge a legitimate complaint with the mods (read: argue their infraction/warning with the mod via their thread or PM), WITH EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THEIR ARGUMENT, then no harm no foul.
If there was a legitimate problem with the moderation on MTGS, there would be an official thread about some sort of class action from those persecuted users, citing evidence, just the same as a class action lawsuit against a company.
I'm not here to shout "evidence", I'm here to shout "if you don't like it here, then lodge your complaints per the rules (by PMing or posting in the thread of the mod that gave you that infraction/warning), or leave."
And in the event that there's a large number of people who agree with Springheel here, I invite you to organize, and do just what I proposed: Come together as one, and display the evidence of the mods tyrannical rule for all to see.
I'm a new guy so you don't have to actually give a ☺☺☺☺ about what I'm saying, but y'all asked for an actual example, so here goes:
It's not that I think the mods of this site are much, much too strict, it's more that in my case their behaviour strikes me as a little... odd. I'm not a victim by any means, and no harm has been done, but let me show you what I mean:
When I made this thread I hadn't really posted here much, and since forum layout is a little confusing, I posted it in EDH-discussion instead of Developing EDH.
'course the thread should be moved, and moved it was. But then two things happened, which I have never ever seen or encountered on another forum before. I recieved a PM with red warning text stating that I had recieved a warning. Furthermore, my initial post was marked with the same red text, saying that "the poster had been warned for breaking the rules."
Isn't that a little... heavy, just for being a newb and posting in the wrong ☺☺☺☺ing forum? Also - it's not always the newb's fault, sometimes the layout of your forum just isn't that good
As you can see, in my example, no harm done really, and my thread thankfully got a great deal of really good replies (thanks for that), but it wasn't really a warm welcome for me, and I can understand why less relaxed fellas might take issue on such a hardcore greeting for such a diminuitive mistake
Quote from AmbassadorLaquatus »
I clicked your link and it appears you edited out the modded text.
Quote from Grunker »
That I did - I did it when I updated the post to contain the new decklist I think.
You really believe it's necessary to issue a red-labelled warning by PM and in my thread and then provide an infraction when I later by coincidence remove the by then month-old mod-edit? You can't see anything unreasonable here?
I'm just a friendly dane who likes to talk about magic. I must admit I fail to spot the great travesty
Because the forum rules explicitly state you can't edit posts after a mod edited it?
I'd offer some leniency on that if I were the mod.
As the OP of the thread, it's his job to update the first post so that people don't have to read through many pages to get an idea of what the deck is doing, etc.
And before someone attempts to recruit Grunker for the "Against Mod Action" group, this is the exception rather than the rule.
I'd offer some leniency on that if I were the mod.
As the OP of the thread, it's his job to update the first post so that people don't have to read through many pages to get an idea of what the deck is doing, etc.
And before someone attempts to recruit Grunker for the "Against Mod Action" group, this is the exception rather than the rule.
You don't have to worry. I'm not really into revolting on an internet forum - at least not if I don't have share in it (i.e. am integrated tightly in the community or somesuch). It's your forum, it's your rules. If I don't like it, I leave. Simple as.
T'was you who asked for examples earlier, which was the only reason I provided you with one
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
This is where I ask that you find and link examples as proof. If things are as you said, then it shouldn't be difficult for you to find them.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
I had proof.... you know, a month ago, when I was suspended for being upset about it. It wasn't even my thread that was locked, I was just sick of mods being *****es.
Now, however, I am completely uninterested in finding you 'proof'. Maybe you can just take it on good faith that I'd have no motive in inventing something to disapprove of.
Or maybe you can write it off based on 'not having proof', feel content that yet another post in this thread has been disqualified as a legitimate complaint, and get back to your day. Whatever gets you through.
You made three threads complaining like a child about the moderators, and got rightfully suspended for it.
Were we the tyrants some suggest us to be, you would have been banned.
Lets look through your threads and see where your 'proof' is...
Thread #1:
Thread #2:
Thread #3:
I don't see anything but a metric ton of inflammatory remarks and inaccuracies. No evidence, no pointing out a specific incident, just ranting.
When you suggest something, the burden of proof falls on you. I mean, it is not like you deserve to be taken at your word when throwing up tactless, immature rants like that in the past. Nothing we do here warrants that kind of response.
Act like an adult, and no one has a problem.
The rules aren't hard to follow, and the mods have no problem treating other members with the respect they deserve, but you need to point out things specifically, rather than making sweeping inaccurate generalizations and overreacting over small things.
Twitter
The only thing I disagree with is that any of it was inaccurate. While nothing you do may warrant that kind of response, you sure did get it, didn't you? Sometimes, buddy, people are just mean.
And no, there is no burden of proof that falls on me. Why? I am not making a court case. I am not even asking that a specific anything be done. I'd just like to point out, in much less volatile language, that there are a few of you who are really doing a bad job and making the site rather undesirable. If you want proof, consult the opinions of other members in this thread. Basically, if it wasn't a moderator or a moderator's buddy with sixty bazillion posts, it was somebody complaining that they didn't like it here. Either recognize that or don't, but stop posting things as if you can actually argue with me about this. You can't. While I recognize that it may not be specifically you who is antagonistic and terrible, this does not mean that I am wrong.
See, the way you're tackling this is all wrong. When you're asked to support a position you take, you support it by showing evidence that proves what you're saying. That's how most of reality works.
The wrong way is where you are needlessly belligerent, refuse to provide anything substantial to what you've put forth, and then act like your the victim of some nefarious, shadowy scheme to abuse you. That's how politics works.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
Number of MTGSalvation users: 50,477.
Number of people in this thread *****ing about the mods: ~20
Proof? Don't think so.
It's like saying that the crazies who think Obama was born in Kenya are right because they say they are.
{Magic: The RPG}
Don't say "I want something to be done, but I don't care." The second half negates the first. If you care, find proof. If you don't care, don't complain.
*ah hem*
Why should we?
I see no reason to "trust" most people on the internet, and I don't see any reason to trust ANYONE that says they have proof of something, but don't feel like pulling it out.
That was each thread you posted, word for word. For the record, I am older, and much more mature and well-behaved than you, kid.
The people who complain are among the EXTREME minority in this site.
If we had a problem, this thread wouldn't be as incredibly slow as it is.
We have thousands upon thousands of members who have been doing just fine with how we conduct things here for years.
The burden of proof falls on you because you are trying to stir things up here but are completely and utterly unable to prove a single thing you say holds any water.
There is no epidemic on this site of how the mods act.
We don't ban people just because we can.
We don't humiliate members for making simple mistakes.
We don't belittle and push down the posters with every action we make.
We have rules here.
We make sure people follow them, and have done so for years.
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If this site is so undesirable, why do you keep returning after each suspension?
You made multiple threads trolling the mods, were rightfully punished, and now hold a grudge against us. It's as simple as that.
Now you can't even find proof to support your own claims of our supposed tyranny.
I have to agree with Seds when I say that the mods are here to uphold the rules and have no innate desire to simply punish posters on a whim.
Its so I can post in all the awesome card talk that happens here.
Oh, wait, I'm only posting in this thread? Damn, there must be some reason....
That's really stupid. No, I don't hold a grudge against you for suspending me that one time I was trying to get suspended. Its pretty much ok with me, thanks.
I really don't understand why I have to, nor why there needs to be a throng of mods holding each others' hands and taking turns telling me I'm wrong because I refuse to find evidence. My opinion is an opinion, and its legitimate. I promise that I really feel how I say I feel. I don't want to give you evidence to prove that my feelings are legitimate. Action is evidence. I'm sure that whatever I post will simply be met by some moderator's self-conscious rebuttal anyhow, so what good is it? I really just wanted to post and make my feelings on this known. You can argue with it all you want, but its not going to do anything.
However, in the interest of being at least cooperative, I'll outline the situation that really set me off:
It was about the time that the standard forums underwent rhinoplasty. People were posting threads, they were being moved or deleted without notice, and so they'd post a thread to ask wtf was going on. iRebel was the mod in question who would lock these threads and call the users morons for even posting them. It was really antagonistic, and it displayed exactly the type of behavior that my big, overblown fire breath was talking about. I can't actually say I have a problem with literally anyone else at all. I'm sure you're all reasonable people, but this vapid defensiveness and the fact that you'll regardless condone any behavior anyone would complain about pretty much implicates you in a lightly guilty party. Deal with that how you want to, I'm really not interested in explaining it any more.
I'm a mod too, actually. Different site, similar size to this one. I know how it is.
Dude, you're cookie monster.
I don't know if many people care enough to complain. They probably just log off and don't return. However, I understand that this is an active and successful forum, so if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Gotcha.
I really just wanted to speak my mind, more for me than you. I know that no matter what I say, even if I had documented evidence of moderators on mtgsalvation being the biggest douchebags you've ever seen, it won't change anything. Why would it? Even if you do have a problem, who ☺☺☺☺ing cares, in the end? Nobody, obviously, you apparently don't have enough complaints in this thread, so its like there's no problem at all.
As an extension of this response, I'd like to apologize if I've frustrated you or anyone else reading this. I realize that I'm a pretty rude person, but cookie monster and laquatus; I really don't think I've ever seen the either of you doing anything objectionable, and I seem to recall that you're both pretty valuable posters with good opinions on things. Its not my intention to drape my ridiculous blanket statements over anyone who is genuinely a good guy, I just got a little riled up and decided that I wouldn't even aim when I fired. If I post here again for whatever reason, maybe to discuss edh or something, I hope you won't hold it against me.
AND FOR the generic sheep who decided to herd into this thread and type "eVidence?!", baaa more you silly livestock. In unison, now.
I'm still waiting to hear why when someone breaks the rules and action is taken against them, it's the mod's fault and people don't expect to be held accountable for their actions. That's basically what every complaint in this thread is. I find it kind of amusing that people like to try and act like they've been victimized when it's all a result of poor decision making on their own part.
* Chaotix shrugs.
(Also known as Xenphire)
I guess while you wait for someone to do that, I'll wait for you to actually read what you felt like throwing your two cents into the whine bucket about.
Yes, the standard changes was a big stress on everyone.
Staff, members, it wasn't necessarily easy on anyone involved.
The standard mods suddenly found themselves doing much more in way of moderating the standard boards, and some members were trying to go against the current.
We got past it, but it wasn't without a bump or two along the way.
Thank you for toning down the rhetoric though.
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It's not that I think the mods of this site are much, much too strict, it's more that in my case their behaviour strikes me as a little... odd. I'm not a victim by any means, and no harm has been done, but let me show you what I mean:
When I made this thread I hadn't really posted here much, and since forum layout is a little confusing, I posted it in EDH-discussion instead of Developing EDH.
'course the thread should be moved, and moved it was. But then two things happened, which I have never ever seen or encountered on another forum before. I recieved a PM with red warning text stating that I had recieved a warning. Furthermore, my initial post was marked with the same red text, saying that "the poster had been warned for breaking the rules."
Isn't that a little... heavy, just for being a newb and posting in the wrong ☺☺☺☺ing forum? Also - it's not always the newb's fault, sometimes the layout of your forum just isn't that good
As you can see, in my example, no harm done really, and my thread thankfully got a great deal of really good replies (thanks for that), but it wasn't really a warm welcome for me, and I can understand why less relaxed fellas might take issue on such a hardcore greeting for such a diminuitive mistake.
I clicked your link and it appears you edited out the modded text.
That I did - I did it when I updated the post to contain the new decklist I think.
To cite an example, I too once posted a topic in the wrong forum, as one of my first posts. I was moderated, and the message I recieved to go along with it lambasted me, and the moderator talked down to me like I was a moron for posting in the wrong forum. I replied to the moderator via PM, and explained my offense at their harsh words. The response I recieved was as equally offensive as the moderation message.
Now, I've been a member of many forums, and even moderated a few myself. Had I not been as experienced a poster, I would have left this site entirely due to the overly harsh comments I recieved. That one act alone could be enough to make someone leave the cite if they took it more personally. I don't think missing out on this site is worth it over a moderation.
Obviously I don't take any of it personally, but seeing as others have also posted this problem, I feel the topic should at least be discussed. Perhaps something could be done to make lighter moderations feel more... light?
So what are you holding a grudge against?
Here's what you're saying.
You: "Mods did X action."
Us: "Would you please show us evidence of this?"
You: "No."
The way you defend a claim is to provide evidence of that claim. You saying the mods are tyrannical is a claim. If iRebel did infact call users names like "moron", I'd agree with you that that was wrong, but you have no evidence, so, I'm inclined to disagree. You saying that someone else did something, IS NOT AN OPINION. Additionally, as far as I can tell, you have not shown any other evidence that that sort of moderator activity is the norm, rather than the exception, which iRebel's action (if true) appears to be to me.
Excellent supporting evidence.
Well as long as you're talking about other people complaining, they might have some success if maybe they didn't throw the tantrums (see: actively seeking to break the rules) I frequently see them throw, and actually supported their arguments by pointing out posts which showed the moderator action which they disagreed with, which again, someone has failed to do. If for instance, iRebel did indeed post a mod action to a thread calling someone a moron, I would complain, and question if any sort of punishment was dealt out to him. But again, you have not supported this claim.
First of all, you have a blog where you can "speak [your] mind, more for [you] than [the mods/anyone else]". Second, no one cares about a complaint that has no supporting evidence. It's like this in the judicial system as well.
Second, no mod is (read: should) hold it against you. It's like going to court over a speeding ticket, then getting back on the road. As long as you follow the law, you won't get pulled over again. Will you be watched? Only if you make it a habit to break the law.
Yes, baaa indeed.
You talk a whole lot about the other people you think have been persecuted by the mods. If they don't care enough to lodge a legitimate complaint with the mods (read: argue their infraction/warning with the mod via their thread or PM), WITH EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THEIR ARGUMENT, then no harm no foul.
If there was a legitimate problem with the moderation on MTGS, there would be an official thread about some sort of class action from those persecuted users, citing evidence, just the same as a class action lawsuit against a company.
I'm not here to shout "evidence", I'm here to shout "if you don't like it here, then lodge your complaints per the rules (by PMing or posting in the thread of the mod that gave you that infraction/warning), or leave."
And in the event that there's a large number of people who agree with Springheel here, I invite you to organize, and do just what I proposed: Come together as one, and display the evidence of the mods tyrannical rule for all to see.
Oh you have got to be kidding me!
How is that in any way necessary? What harm have I done?
I'm almost afraid to say it but "Quod Erat Demonstrandum."
Because the forum rules explicitly state you can't edit posts after a mod edited it?
You really believe it's necessary to issue a red-labelled warning by PM and in my thread and then provide an infraction when I later by coincidence remove the by then month-old mod-edit? You can't see anything unreasonable here?
I'm just a friendly dane who likes to talk about magic. I must admit I fail to spot the great travesty
I'd offer some leniency on that if I were the mod.
As the OP of the thread, it's his job to update the first post so that people don't have to read through many pages to get an idea of what the deck is doing, etc.
And before someone attempts to recruit Grunker for the "Against Mod Action" group, this is the exception rather than the rule.
You don't have to worry. I'm not really into revolting on an internet forum - at least not if I don't have share in it (i.e. am integrated tightly in the community or somesuch). It's your forum, it's your rules. If I don't like it, I leave. Simple as.
T'was you who asked for examples earlier, which was the only reason I provided you with one
Seriously? Anyone who disagrees with you is now a 'sheep' because they have the sense to show up and ask you to back up your random whining?!
Since when did "sheep" become a standard insult for anyone who disagrees with you?
But remember, any response to this would just prove you are a sheep who follows the trend of *****ing about the mods. Baa.
{Magic: The RPG}