Yes, I agree. Forcing people to obey traffic laws, drinking laws, murder laws and other important laws are detrimental, no matter what.
Not a single rule on this site is unreasonable. Even minor ones like using deck tags when posting a deck exist to make reading posts easier for everyone.
you do make a good point, but let's just take your analogy one step further...
the american government enacted prohibition in the 30s. that was a law on the books, alcohol was illegal just like cocaine and heroine are now.
however, no one was happy with prohibition (with the usual exceptions: religious nuts, prudes, crazy people, etc) so the government eventually repealed a law that was found to be both unjust and unenforceable. taking it one tiny step further, look at the american war on drugs: it's resulted in the country with the highest rate of incarceration in the developed world, and possible the entire world, and has not stemmed the tide of illegal drugs in that country one bit. in fact, research shows that drug costs go down and purity levels rise as more money is poured into the war on drugs.
does it make sense to continue the war on drugs? it's an extreme analogy, but it's apt. the mods and admins can never spend enough time infracting, warning and banning users to create the utopian vision they are shooting for. it's simply a numbers game. if you have 51,000 members and 50 mods, the mods are severely outnumbered.
depending on how you define it, sure, none of the rules are unreasonable. the problem is, most of the time people are unreasonable too. the rules of the site do maintain a certain order, but they also create a sense of frustration when simply trying to interact with the community. when you have to spend extra minutes checking rules, pming mods and awaiting an answer, in the end it's easier just to eat an infraction than to follow the rules.
sure, those situations are probably well in the minority, but the fact that there are as many threads as there are in this particular subforum complaining about the system is it's own commentary on how frustrating the rules system is overall.
if the goal is a clean and easy to read forum, i think the rules have failed. if the goal is to create an atmosphere free of trolling, flamewars and off topic nonsense, then i suppose you could call the rules a success. personally, i'd prefer the former goal be achieved, but hey, that's just me.
when you have to spend extra minutes checking rules, pming mods and awaiting an answer, in the end it's easier just to eat an infraction than to follow the rules.
sure, those situations are probably well in the minority, but the fact that there are as many threads as there are in this particular subforum complaining about the system is it's own commentary on how frustrating the rules system is overall.
Yeah, because people need a good reason before they start complaining on the internet AND you don't seem to realize how few of the threads in the forum are complaining about the mods.(I count 2 on the first page of this forum) THIS ONE was started to PRAISE the mods, for example. It's people like you that don't read OP and drive it farther and farther off topic.
So, your saying we should just make this forum like 4chan.
And the all countries should become Amsterdam.
Yeah, because people need a good reason before they start complaining on the internet AND you don't seem to realize how few of the threads in the forum are complaining about the mods.(I count 2 on the first page of this forum) THIS ONE was started to PRAISE the mods, for example. It's people like you that don't read OP and drive it farther and farther off topic.
Sigh love how no Moderator has addresses any of my comments and quotes but is this thread no call Complaining about the Moderators threads? I would think discussion why people are complaining about moderation would be relevant and on topic.
Sigh love how no Moderator has addresses any of my comments and quotes but is this thread no call Complaining about the Moderators threads? I would think discussion why people are complaining about moderation would be relevant and on topic.
First, you very clearly didn't read and understand the beginning of this thread. It is about the "Moderators Suck" threads, not a place for you to complain about moderators. But that's okay, you're just one more in the long line of posters who just want to complain and didn't bother to read the thread. But hey, be glad I'm not an admin (and thus, not a moderator of the Community Issues forum) - I'd hand you a spam infraction for every post you've made in here.
And at heart, that's part of the reason why I personally haven't bothered to try addressing any of the "issues" you've raised. You don't even known enough to post in the right location, so why give credence to anything you say here? Why give it value by addressing it?
Of course, the other half of it is something Qwerty touched upon in one of his posts. You seem to approach this site and this "discussion" thinking you have some sort of inalienable rights here. You don't. It is a privately owned and operated forum. The rules are purely at the discretion of the owner and admins, and you are only here because they allow you to be. Much like with downloaded software, or e-mail services, or that sort of thing, they have the right to stop service to you at any time, at their discretion.
Not trying to step on any toes here, (I know moderation can be difficult and the number of people I have to deal with on a daily basis is way smaller than it is here) but something that works where I moderate is a forum specifically for spamming and screwing around. There are some rules but only stuff to cover our behinds, and its a place where the people who want to be dumb can be dumb to their hearts content safe in the knowledge that as long as they don't do anything to stupid, and keep the stupidity kept there and use their good posting skills on the rest of the boards, then they never really have to worry about infractions. Hell, even us moderators are not afraid of being stupid there. Its all in good fun.
As such we really don't ever have any rules disputes.
Most people do these things with the absence of laws such as not murdering and follow traffic laws. As far as drinking people do it allot less when you have restrictions. Same way abortion rates were higher back when abortion was illegal. Regardless the laws do not force people to follow them but rather say if you do break these laws you will have a punishment. Even these laws are refined because there are exceptions when all of these laws don't apply. Example would be murder would be acceptable if it was self defense or a child drinking in the the presence of their parent.
No one is forcing you to follow the rules here either.
All that is happening is that you become punished if you do break them and get caught.
And your abortion statement is false/misleading:
1972:Eisenstadt v. Baird Supreme Court decision establishes the right of unmarried people to use contraceptives. 1973:Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision strikes down state laws that made abortion illegal.
Guess which one had more of an affect on abortion rates?
No one said the rules were completely unreasonable. We are saying that the bigger ones need to be refined and specify situations that are borderline on the rule. This is not minor rules but bigger ones. No are we asking for the absence or dismissal of moderation. Why is such a simple concept so hard to understand?
"We" seems to be 3-4 people, however, going back over your off topic posts on this thread, it seems to me you did a lot more long-winded analogies (many of which did not make any sense) than you did any REAL and explicated ways the forum rules could be amended.
What EXPLICATED suggests do you have that are guaranteed to improve the forum? We could discuss those.
First, you very clearly didn't read and understand the beginning of this thread. It is about the "Moderators Suck" threads, not a place for you to complain about moderators. But that's okay, you're just one more in the long line of posters who just want to complain and didn't bother to read the thread. But hey, be glad I'm not an admin (and thus, not a moderator of the Community Issues forum) - I'd hand you a spam infraction for every post you've made in here.
What is with everyone and their terrible attitudes and sharp tongues? If you read what I said "very clearly" I did not complain about moderators I was simply discussion the flaw in the rules and that doesn't constitute complaining. I was elaborating on the discussion between members and admins before I arrived. If I'm deserving of a spam infraction then so is everyone else including moderators. They are no exception to the rules.
And at heart, that's part of the reason why I personally haven't bothered to try addressing any of the "issues" you've raised. You don't even known enough to post in the right location, so why give credence to anything you say here? Why give it value by addressing it?
There was a discussion going on before I arrived. They were deserving of responses of admin but I'm not? Their was actual complaints as my is observation, suggestion, and criticism. I have had no problems with the admins or moderators till now where I get hostile tones that attempt to degrade and cast me off. I personally have not made your day hardier. I have made no infractions, broken no rules, have not flamed anyone, my address have been at the subject, yet you find it that I'm deserving of your aggression.
Of course, the other half of it is something Qwerty touched upon in one of his posts. You seem to approach this site and this "discussion" thinking you have some sort of inalienable rights here. You don't. It is a privately owned and operated forum. The rules are purely at the discretion of the owner and admins, and you are only here because they allow you to be. Much like with downloaded software, or e-mail services, or that sort of thing, they have the right to stop service to you at any time, at their discretion.
You misunderstood me clearly then. Let me reword it. You may reserve all rights to the site and its actions, but the community DOES hold power. The community is control of your reviews and how people perceive you (reputation). Like ownloaded software, or e-mail services, or that sort of thing if you upset its users and they CAN and COULD make the product or company fail. There is a clear difference between rights and power. I'm was making the point when any site, business, or game abducts their rights and become tyrant like the people abduct their right to not buy, sell, promote, or cooperate with that site and even their right to scar or burn the reputation of that business. When you get down to the big picture that is the truth. Perfect example would be restaurant. The people keep telling the staff that there is two much salt in the salad. The head chef and staff don't listen and because the salad recipe has been around some time and they do fine with out changing it. Over time they keep receiving more suggestions on just changing the amount of salt in the salad and but not suggesting to do away with the salad all together. The staff becomes annoyed over time with this and grows hostility goes and tell the customers that they are guest in the restaurant they reserve all rights and you can leave if you don't like it. One of the gentlemen in the restaurant who had ordered the salad and was there for the out burst happened to be a critic. He leaves and he rights a horrid review on the restaurant and destroys the reputation. This is only reenforced by the other customers there. The restaurant begins to decline in fails. The restaurant had all the right but the people had the power in the end.
And your abortion statement is false/misleading:
1972: Eisenstadt v. Baird Supreme Court decision establishes the right of unmarried people to use contraceptives.
1973: Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision strikes down state laws that made abortion illegal.
"Government estimates indicate that teen abortion rates increased during the 1970s, stabilized during the 1980s at around 43 per 1,000 females ages 15 to 19, then decreased steadily to about 19 per 1,000 by 2005. (See Figure 1)
Rates for non-Hispanic white, non-Hispanic black, and Hispanic females have all fallen substantially during the 1990s, although declines did not start for Hispanic females until 1993. (See Figure 2)
The rate of teen births rose slightly in 2006 and 2007, after a long period of decline. Data are not yet available to determine whether abortion rates among those age groups had similar increases."
From Childrentrendsdatabank.org. After abortions became Legal did they did not decline?
[B]
"We" seems to be 3-4 people, however, going back over your off topic posts on this thread, it seems to me you did a lot more long-winded analogies (many of which did not make any sense) than you did any REAL and explicated ways the forum rules could be amended.
What EXPLICATED suggests do you have that are guaranteed to improve the forum? We could discuss those.
From what was mentioned by moderators there have been people for years posting the same argument so we would be everyone till now. If you didn't understand my analogies ask me about them and Ill explain them. I was never to make the suggestions because Umezete already stated them. Please define "guaranteed" by the way.
You seem to be claiming you KNOW how to make the forums better.
See Spencersdream? Your saying "Why will no one LISTEN TO ME about changing the forums for the better!"
But, you're not giving us any ACTUAL ways to change the forum for the better. You're just providing false analogies.
If you read what I said "very clearly" I did not complain about moderators I was simply discussion the flaw in the rules and that doesn't constitute complaining. I was elaborating on the discussion between members and admins before I arrived. If I'm deserving of a spam infraction then so is everyone else including moderators. They are no exception to the rules.
First you complain that not enough mods are conversing with you, and then you say that everyone of them that did should be punished?
Anyway,
Going over your old posts, I find this statement to be wrong. It's possible I missed something, but I did not find any posts of yours showing explicit examples of how the rules could be changed for the best.
They were deserving of responses of admin but I'm not?
Did you even read what the admin said?
One was talking about the OP, which was about how great the mods are. The other was telling people where they should post their complaints. (Pro Tip: Not here)
I personally have not made your day hardier. I have made no infractions, broken no rules, have not flamed anyone, my address have been at the subject, yet you find it that I'm deserving of your aggression.
Well, your address was not about the subject, if you bothered to read the thread.
You misunderstood me clearly then. Let me reword it. .....
Chefs should listen to their customers. (shortened cuz I like levity)
Except this site has a lot of members, a good reputation, and very few complains.
So, to work with in your very long analogy, it would be like expert chef listening to someone that just walked in the door.
"Government estimates indicate that teen abortion rates increased during the 1970s, stabilized during the 1980s at around 43 per 1,000 females ages 15 to 19, then decreased steadily to about 19 per 1,000 by 2005. (See Figure 1)
Rates for non-Hispanic white, non-Hispanic black, and Hispanic females have all fallen substantially during the 1990s, although declines did not start for Hispanic females until 1993. (See Figure 2)
The rate of teen births rose slightly in 2006 and 2007, after a long period of decline. Data are not yet available to determine whether abortion rates among those age groups had similar increases."
Yeah, so when it was made legal, in the 1970's, the number spiked, and then went down once the legalized contraceptives kicked in.
Thanks for helping to prove me right. Glade your big enough to admit when you're wrong
If you didn't understand my analogies ask me about them and Ill explain them. I was never to make the suggestions because Umezete already stated them. Please define "guaranteed" by the way.
I don't need you to explain what is false to know it's false.
Just looking at the logistics there are roughly 12535 active members on this site if we just look at those who have posted since 01/01/1o.
This produces a lot of traffic particularly in areas like the Mill + the rulings area's all of which needs atleast a cursory glance over by a Mod to make sure nothing has blatantly broken the rules. Admittedly they have the help of people who hit the report button when they see something off, but it still comes down to the mod pushing the buttons and dealing with the flak that comes back from the person who has just got the infraction.
AS for getting paid, as was mentioned on this thread Hannes is already spending enough just providing us this place to ramble on at no expense to us the end user. The Mods / Admins are probably doing it on a voluntary basis with no more renumeration than the odd round of drinks from Hannes when they manage to bump into each other at tournaments / gatherings
Private Mod Note
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
Sigh let me slow down and explain everything so there is no confusion.
See Spencersdream? Your saying "Why will no one LISTEN TO ME about changing the forums for the better!"
Please do not put words in my mouth. I same that love how no moderator want to comment on any of the post until now. There has not be an ME. I pretty sure there was an us. Us being Grunker, Ramenth, Umzete, and Zom B. We were all trying to relay the same points.
But, you're not giving us any ACTUAL ways to change the forum for the better.
I do remember suggestions on ways to improve the forums and other members saying it. Ill repost them so they aren't overlooked.
It was said by a moderator that.
So, I get the fact that you don't find harm in double posting and necro'ing. But the reality is, not only does it clutter the forum, it often brings back irrelevant information.
I suggested refining the rules.
If the rules were specific enough a question like that should never come to mind nor should have been suggestions on how to improve that rule. Which is another point where you (Moderators) see trying to loosen the rules the posters see at attempting to improve and increase the stay of others. These intents could be considered selfish in nature but they would most likely have a selfish tone to it. Such as that rule should be abolished. I believe the situation that spawned that conversation was that a gentlemen had great help from the community improving his deck and he told them he was using for an up coming tournament. The community requested that he post results for various obvious reasons. Time went by and the thread went to "necro status". He had the tournament then posted the results in that thread as to update the community on how his deck went. He was given an infraction. The argument was that necroing causes useless spam and brings back information that has changed over time. Which is true but in this case it was not. People where interested in the results which means it wasn't spam and the information wasn't out dated. Moderation wsaid the proper way to do it is make a new thread with a link to the old thread. Which still is flawed. Since you make a new thread you have double the amount of threads truly needed for that update and for later when the thread dies which is more clutter in the end. Also people who had subscribed to the thread would get no notification that the results would have been posted. I do think its great that the infractions are downgraded in some cases but really some infractions could have been avoided completely.
To further describe what refining a rule is. It was stated that sometimes infractions are given but the purpose behind breaking that rule wasn't conveyed. So the member is to contact the moderator to explain why they broke the rules. If the moderator finds that reason legit then the moderator can reduce the infraction or eliminate it though elimination is not likely. If the situation the infraction was eliminated or reduced because the infraction couldn't be deleted because of a valid reason. Then the rule should list situations like the expressed on where the rule can be ignored. People who infractions for the same exact reason can avoid infractions. (They all don't appeal. It can be listed with these situations they need to make note that situation is going on with the post.
I also suggested finding out about how the community feels about the rules, admin, and site in general. Know your community is always beneficial.
Websites in general have the ability to be more creative where governments can not. You could work a page in that when the person logs in they are prompted with a question or poll on how they feel about administration. This page could be made to prompt once. I do think finding out how your community feels about you isn't harmful in the less. It gives you insight on how everyone feels and what can be improved. You have records of all your members when they join and you can factor in the new comers yourself. Its not impossible or pointless it just requires work.
Further suggestions were made by Uzmete:
I do think a few rules can be fixed to eliminate alot of problems without causing any and would like to see why the mods don't think they can. The rules are
-Doubleposting in event of an update. We can do this in the trading forums once every 24 hours reguardless of updating status. The point that doubleposting isn't allowed elsewhere is mostly due to people bumping their own threads for ego/advice reasons. THis is the help my deck bumping crowd and etc. However I think in event that the thread has an update it should be allowed to be bumped. If the clutter of posts is an issue I know you can auto-merge posts on an internet forum. You can still punish spammers bumping for the sake of bumping without status update.
-Necroing your own thread- I got my first warning for necroing my thread (I think, the mod didn't elaborate). I D O N ' T think this should even be possible. The only way necroing a thread with the op still active should be a warnable offence is if its an old rumor in the rumor mill, or an dated deck. In no other circumstance should it count as necroing.
First you complain that not enough mods are conversing with you, and then you say that everyone of them that did should be punished?
Again all I said was that I find it funny no mods are responding.
Much more of that last one.
Much of that is thanks to Qwerty and his comments.
I think your misinterpreting what is happening. Maybe you should go read over this thread again.
I'm was referring to the tone used against myself not on the thread in general.
Originally Posted by Spencersdream
You misunderstood me clearly then. Let me reword it. .....
Chefs should listen to their customers. (shortened cuz I like levity)
Except this site has a lot of members, a good reputation, and very few complains.
So, to work with in your very long analogy, it would be like expert chef listening to someone that just walked in the door.
Again please please please don't put words in my mouth. The point was Customers do hold power. But yes this site has all those but as the saying go "Rome fell in a day."
Yeah, so when it was made legal, in the 1970's, the number spiked, and then went down once the legalized contraceptives kicked in.
You maybe right but I'm going to ask for proof it was the contraceptives and not the act of legalization. I'm aware it was part of the cause for the decline but the entire reason and the legalization played no role. Please show me evidence.
"Except you don't have an argument other than: "things are bad, they should be changed."
Again don't put words in my mouth please.
I don't need you to explain what is false to know it's false.
You've been implying you KNOW how to make the site better, right?
You've been drawing the wrong conclusion from my analogies. If you want to continue to take them out of context they are meant to be thats on you. With the definition of guarantee being given. How can you guarantee the possible changes won't improve the site? You've been implying it won't make the site better.
If the rules were specific enough a question like that should never come to mind nor should have been suggestions on how to improve that rule. Which is another point where you (Moderators) see trying to loosen the rules the posters see at attempting to improve and increase the stay of others. These intents could be considered selfish in nature but they would most likely have a selfish tone to it. Such as that rule should be abolished. I believe the situation that spawned that conversation was that a gentlemen had great help from the community improving his deck and he told them he was using for an up coming tournament. The community requested that he post results for various obvious reasons. Time went by and the thread went to "necro status". He had the tournament then posted the results in that thread as to update the community on how his deck went. He was given an infraction. The argument was that necroing causes useless spam and brings back information that has changed over time. Which is true but in this case it was not. People where interested in the results which means it wasn't spam and the information wasn't out dated. Moderation wsaid the proper way to do it is make a new thread with a link to the old thread. Which still is flawed. Since you make a new thread you have double the amount of threads truly needed for that update and for later when the thread dies which is more clutter in the end. Also people who had subscribed to the thread would get no notification that the results would have been posted. I do think its great that the infractions are downgraded in some cases but really some infractions could have been avoided completely.
I'm having trouble discerning what it is you're trying to talk about. If we make the rules so specific, then who knows what we'll be accused of next + there is the matter of people not even reading the current rules. The rules, as they stand, cover much of what can happen.
As for this particular case of necroing that you brought up...I don't see how making a new thread causes any problems. You say it creates more clutter. That's what thread deletion and archives are for, to remove old threads to trim clutter.
Alternatively, said person could have PM'd a mod asking what to do first. People do do that, and it works out well for all involved. Believe me, I'm much more happy to entertain a request than deal with someone breaking a rule(especially when asking in the first place avoids them breaking the rule).
Please do not put words in my mouth. I same that love how no moderator want to comment on any of the post until now. There has not be an ME. I pretty sure there was an us. Us being Grunker, Ramenth, Umzete, and Zom B. We were all trying to relay the same points.
You should go back and see how many moderators HAVE been posting here. Also, why should they even check this thread? It's about how awesome they are, and THEY know that.
I do remember suggestions on ways to improve the forums and other members saying it. Ill repost them so they aren't overlooked.
Please do. But, also try to remember that a forum is not like soup. You can't change the forum's rules every day to "try something."
You can add more or less salt to soup each time you make it, but if the forum rules changed like that, people would get pretty pissed off.
A REAL change to the rule is NOT something to be taken lightly.
It was said by a moderator that.
Saying "the rules should be more specific" is different from saying "This is what the rules should be changed to: BLOCK OF NEW RULES."
You're still just saying "Things should be changed" but you're NOT saying what exactly they should be changed to.
I could say "the rules should be better, that would make the forum better" and everyone would agree. (making things better is good after all) But, simply stating that is not enough.
You cited an example of something you saw happen you did not like, but you did not outline EXACTLY how to change the rules to stop it from happening.
To further describe what refining a rule is. It was stated that sometimes infractions are given but the purpose behind breaking that rule wasn't conveyed. So the member is to contact the moderator to explain why they broke the rules. If the moderator finds that reason legit then the moderator can reduce the infraction or eliminate it though elimination is not likely. If the situation the infraction was eliminated or reduced because the infraction couldn't be deleted because of a valid reason. Then the rule should list situations like the expressed on where the rule can be ignored. People who infractions for the same exact reason can avoid infractions. (They all don't appeal. It can be listed with these situations they need to make note that situation is going on with the post.
This already happens. An appeal system is already in place.
I have seen MANY infractions overturned by an admin, and permanently deleted from someones record as if they had never happened.
We've already gone over, at length, why that's not a good idea.
Would you like to address those points, or should I just c/p what others said for you to read?
Again all I said was that I find it funny no mods are responding.
Again, they are. But even if they were not, why should they check this thread again? This thread IS about how awesome they are. Also, they can't be expected to check EVERY thread.
I'm was referring to the tone used against myself not on the thread in general.
It's called Xenophobia.
If some new guy came into your favorite place and started criticizing everything in it, you would probably respond in a similar fashion. It's human nature to not like strangers telling you to change something you love.
Again please please please don't put words in my mouth. The point was Customers do hold power. But yes this site has all those but as the saying go "Rome fell in a day."
This site does not have "Customers." I don't remember playing any money to be here, did you?
You maybe right but I'm going to ask for proof it was the contraceptives and not the act of legalization. I'm aware it was part of the cause for the decline but the entire reason and the legalization played no role. Please show me evidence.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
You can see the sharp rise right after 1973 when it was made legal.
If you compare this to a graph of how widespread contraception EDUCATION is, the results should become clear.
With the definition of guarantee being given. How can you guarantee the possible changes won't improve the site? You've been implying it won't make the site better.
Well, again, a forum is a little more inflexible than soup. You can't just change the rules all willy nilly just to see what will happen.
Avoiding double posting is easy. Just copypaste the last post, delete it, and repost it in addition to the new updated info you were going to add.
Necroing is dumb due to the fact that someone bumps a thread that's several months old by asking for help on deck X, when deck X is now no longer viable like it was several months ago or something, or deck X is rotating out of the format, or whatever.
Avoiding double posting is easy. Just copypaste the last post, delete it, and repost it in addition to the new updated info you were going to add.
Necroing is dumb due to the fact that someone bumps a thread that's several months old by asking for help on deck X, when deck X is now no longer viable like it was several months ago or something, or deck X is rotating out of the format, or whatever.
I might have more later.
I don't think you're in the right thread. The double posting thread is elsewhere and Necroing has nothing to do with the viability of Deck X. I realize it was some sort of example, but you missed with that one.
On to the off-topic discussion;
Spencersdream, first and foremost you should be infracted for your poor grammar, content, coherence and inability to re-read your posts for it. Second, the rules in this forum are strict for a reason. This site, like MTGNews, is based upon Magic Rumors for upcoming sets and releases. True there are many other things going on in here, but that is the core reason for this site. If you give people free reign, the place turns into a cesspool of idiocy. If you further define the rules to not allow for any vaguery (not really a word) than independent thinking goes right out the window. There are always people who will skirt the rules. If one of them finds a way around those rules and goes over board, adjustments are made. I can't see why it is so difficult to follow the written regulations of a privately owned site!?! Sure we break an occasional rule here and there, we get tagged by the mods. We can always argue that warning...though like in court, the chances of getting it turned around are slim.
That's life Tiger!
Private Mod Note
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"Talkin outta turn....That's a paddlin'. Starin' at my sandals....That's a paddlin'. Paddlin' the school canoe....You better believe that's a paddlin'!" --Jasper
I don't see any pattern going on.
We won't cater or listen to people who post like spoiled children throwing a fit.
Why should we?
Edit: posting from iPhone...
We don't have a problem because these members aren't inciting anything relevant. We are handling these silly outbursts appropriately as well, IMO.
With all due respect, this attitude lies at the root of all the persistent unrest this site experiences. As soon as you start treating the annoying troublemakers like annoying trouble-makers, it's going to hit the fan. That's customer/community service 101.
To plagiarize myself, I doubt anyone here is upset that the moderation team takes their job seriously.
On the other hand, you are going to run into problems when the moderators take violators of the rule too seriously. No site I've ever seen has had such a long-standing history of dealing tactlessly and insensitively with its own members. The basic issue here is simply tact, and a healthy perspective.
Spammers and double-posters are not criminals. I'm sure the moderators are aware of that, nevertheless, this site is notorious for slipping into a pattern of treating them that way. Instead of flexing your customer service skills, it's more like a bad case of law enforcement/leadership role-playing.
This is the seed of your recurring public relations problems. Anyone remember when things got so bad that I was nearly appointed the public relations officer for the staff? It was a ridiculous problem then, and it still is - there are plenty of sites that maintain a high level of moderation without resembling the Gestapo, and without needing a PR officer to defend or advise them.
Happily, we've been seeing a few more moderators lately who have a good handle on this, particularly in my corners of the world (trading/forum games), but it's still a sporadic problem elsewhere. Hence, all these silly complaints that boil down to this same root issue: treating people insensitively.
So you think he's terrible because he gave you a warning and an infraction for breaking the rules?
Interesting.
Interesting yes in that it is a new name come up. I thought it was Annorax people usually complained about.
@ Dontgetcaught: Did you read the sales lot rules before you made your first post? Guess you didn't because if you had, you would have seen these sections:
Quote from sales lot rules »
Your sales forum thread must contain exact prices that you are willing to sell or buy card(s) or collections.
Failure to do so will result in the closure & removal of your thread
Posting offers on a sale thread that does not have prices will be considered as spam and will be warned or infracted.
Your post was spam and got warned as such. If you had any issues with the warning you should have gone to Jabberwocky and appealed it not come here and complained.
AS to your second query.
In the market street and its subforums i would be very grateful that the mods are more officious than other parts of this site. If the worst happens they are going to be ones that step in when a trade goes bad and will be doing what they can to salvage it and get cards/money back where they belong.
Something that you may be thankful of in the future.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
you do make a good point, but let's just take your analogy one step further...
the american government enacted prohibition in the 30s. that was a law on the books, alcohol was illegal just like cocaine and heroine are now.
however, no one was happy with prohibition (with the usual exceptions: religious nuts, prudes, crazy people, etc) so the government eventually repealed a law that was found to be both unjust and unenforceable. taking it one tiny step further, look at the american war on drugs: it's resulted in the country with the highest rate of incarceration in the developed world, and possible the entire world, and has not stemmed the tide of illegal drugs in that country one bit. in fact, research shows that drug costs go down and purity levels rise as more money is poured into the war on drugs.
does it make sense to continue the war on drugs? it's an extreme analogy, but it's apt. the mods and admins can never spend enough time infracting, warning and banning users to create the utopian vision they are shooting for. it's simply a numbers game. if you have 51,000 members and 50 mods, the mods are severely outnumbered.
depending on how you define it, sure, none of the rules are unreasonable. the problem is, most of the time people are unreasonable too. the rules of the site do maintain a certain order, but they also create a sense of frustration when simply trying to interact with the community. when you have to spend extra minutes checking rules, pming mods and awaiting an answer, in the end it's easier just to eat an infraction than to follow the rules.
sure, those situations are probably well in the minority, but the fact that there are as many threads as there are in this particular subforum complaining about the system is it's own commentary on how frustrating the rules system is overall.
if the goal is a clean and easy to read forum, i think the rules have failed. if the goal is to create an atmosphere free of trolling, flamewars and off topic nonsense, then i suppose you could call the rules a success. personally, i'd prefer the former goal be achieved, but hey, that's just me.
And the all countries should become Amsterdam.
Yeah, because people need a good reason before they start complaining on the internet AND you don't seem to realize how few of the threads in the forum are complaining about the mods.(I count 2 on the first page of this forum) THIS ONE was started to PRAISE the mods, for example. It's people like you that don't read OP and drive it farther and farther off topic.
Sigh love how no Moderator has addresses any of my comments and quotes but is this thread no call Complaining about the Moderators threads? I would think discussion why people are complaining about moderation would be relevant and on topic.
G Broodspawn G
First, you very clearly didn't read and understand the beginning of this thread. It is about the "Moderators Suck" threads, not a place for you to complain about moderators. But that's okay, you're just one more in the long line of posters who just want to complain and didn't bother to read the thread. But hey, be glad I'm not an admin (and thus, not a moderator of the Community Issues forum) - I'd hand you a spam infraction for every post you've made in here.
And at heart, that's part of the reason why I personally haven't bothered to try addressing any of the "issues" you've raised. You don't even known enough to post in the right location, so why give credence to anything you say here? Why give it value by addressing it?
Of course, the other half of it is something Qwerty touched upon in one of his posts. You seem to approach this site and this "discussion" thinking you have some sort of inalienable rights here. You don't. It is a privately owned and operated forum. The rules are purely at the discretion of the owner and admins, and you are only here because they allow you to be. Much like with downloaded software, or e-mail services, or that sort of thing, they have the right to stop service to you at any time, at their discretion.
My Moderator Helpdesk| My Custom Set List | My MSE Template HostingBeers Tasted: 113 | Last Beer Sampled: Flying Dog Horn Dog Barley Wine Ale
As such we really don't ever have any rules disputes.
$.02
@iPot: We had one such place.
It was deleted and reformatted.
@Spencersdream: Here, I'm no mod, but I'll give your points a shot!
No one is forcing you to follow the rules here either.
All that is happening is that you become punished if you do break them and get caught.
And your abortion statement is false/misleading:
1972: Eisenstadt v. Baird Supreme Court decision establishes the right of unmarried people to use contraceptives.
1973: Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision strikes down state laws that made abortion illegal.
Guess which one had more of an affect on abortion rates?
"We" seems to be 3-4 people, however, going back over your off topic posts on this thread, it seems to me you did a lot more long-winded analogies (many of which did not make any sense) than you did any REAL and explicated ways the forum rules could be amended.
What EXPLICATED suggests do you have that are guaranteed to improve the forum? We could discuss those.
What is with everyone and their terrible attitudes and sharp tongues? If you read what I said "very clearly" I did not complain about moderators I was simply discussion the flaw in the rules and that doesn't constitute complaining. I was elaborating on the discussion between members and admins before I arrived. If I'm deserving of a spam infraction then so is everyone else including moderators. They are no exception to the rules.
There was a discussion going on before I arrived. They were deserving of responses of admin but I'm not? Their was actual complaints as my is observation, suggestion, and criticism. I have had no problems with the admins or moderators till now where I get hostile tones that attempt to degrade and cast me off. I personally have not made your day hardier. I have made no infractions, broken no rules, have not flamed anyone, my address have been at the subject, yet you find it that I'm deserving of your aggression.
You misunderstood me clearly then. Let me reword it. You may reserve all rights to the site and its actions, but the community DOES hold power. The community is control of your reviews and how people perceive you (reputation). Like ownloaded software, or e-mail services, or that sort of thing if you upset its users and they CAN and COULD make the product or company fail. There is a clear difference between rights and power. I'm was making the point when any site, business, or game abducts their rights and become tyrant like the people abduct their right to not buy, sell, promote, or cooperate with that site and even their right to scar or burn the reputation of that business. When you get down to the big picture that is the truth. Perfect example would be restaurant. The people keep telling the staff that there is two much salt in the salad. The head chef and staff don't listen and because the salad recipe has been around some time and they do fine with out changing it. Over time they keep receiving more suggestions on just changing the amount of salt in the salad and but not suggesting to do away with the salad all together. The staff becomes annoyed over time with this and grows hostility goes and tell the customers that they are guest in the restaurant they reserve all rights and you can leave if you don't like it. One of the gentlemen in the restaurant who had ordered the salad and was there for the out burst happened to be a critic. He leaves and he rights a horrid review on the restaurant and destroys the reputation. This is only reenforced by the other customers there. The restaurant begins to decline in fails. The restaurant had all the right but the people had the power in the end.
"Government estimates indicate that teen abortion rates increased during the 1970s, stabilized during the 1980s at around 43 per 1,000 females ages 15 to 19, then decreased steadily to about 19 per 1,000 by 2005. (See Figure 1)
Rates for non-Hispanic white, non-Hispanic black, and Hispanic females have all fallen substantially during the 1990s, although declines did not start for Hispanic females until 1993. (See Figure 2)
The rate of teen births rose slightly in 2006 and 2007, after a long period of decline. Data are not yet available to determine whether abortion rates among those age groups had similar increases."
From Childrentrendsdatabank.org. After abortions became Legal did they did not decline?
From what was mentioned by moderators there have been people for years posting the same argument so we would be everyone till now. If you didn't understand my analogies ask me about them and Ill explain them. I was never to make the suggestions because Umezete already stated them. Please define "guaranteed" by the way.
G Broodspawn G
See Spencersdream? Your saying "Why will no one LISTEN TO ME about changing the forums for the better!"
But, you're not giving us any ACTUAL ways to change the forum for the better. You're just providing false analogies.
However, to address what you are saying...
To use an analogy of my own, this is the kettle calling the pot black.
First you complain that not enough mods are conversing with you, and then you say that everyone of them that did should be punished?
Anyway,
Going over your old posts, I find this statement to be wrong. It's possible I missed something, but I did not find any posts of yours showing explicit examples of how the rules could be changed for the best.
One you very clearly did not read thoroughly before you started voicing your opinion.
Did you even read what the admin said?
One was talking about the OP, which was about how great the mods are. The other was telling people where they should post their complaints. (Pro Tip: Not here)
Less in the way of actual suggestions from you. Much more of that last one.
I think your misinterpreting what is happening. Maybe you should go read over this thread again.
Well, your address was not about the subject, if you bothered to read the thread.
Also.... what suggestions have you made?
Except this site has a lot of members, a good reputation, and very few complains.
So, to work with in your very long analogy, it would be like expert chef listening to someone that just walked in the door.
Also, we are not playing the mods anything.
Yeah, so when it was made legal, in the 1970's, the number spiked, and then went down once the legalized contraceptives kicked in.
Thanks for helping to prove me right. Glade your big enough to admit when you're wrong
Except you don't have an argument other than: "things are bad, they should be changed."
I don't need you to explain what is false to know it's false.
"Define guaranteed?"
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/guarantee
You've been implying you KNOW how to make the site better, right?
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
This produces a lot of traffic particularly in areas like the Mill + the rulings area's all of which needs atleast a cursory glance over by a Mod to make sure nothing has blatantly broken the rules. Admittedly they have the help of people who hit the report button when they see something off, but it still comes down to the mod pushing the buttons and dealing with the flak that comes back from the person who has just got the infraction.
AS for getting paid, as was mentioned on this thread Hannes is already spending enough just providing us this place to ramble on at no expense to us the end user. The Mods / Admins are probably doing it on a voluntary basis with no more renumeration than the odd round of drinks from Hannes when they manage to bump into each other at tournaments / gatherings
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
Please do not put words in my mouth. I same that love how no moderator want to comment on any of the post until now. There has not be an ME. I pretty sure there was an us. Us being Grunker, Ramenth, Umzete, and Zom B. We were all trying to relay the same points.
I do remember suggestions on ways to improve the forums and other members saying it. Ill repost them so they aren't overlooked.
It was said by a moderator that.
I suggested refining the rules.
To further describe what refining a rule is. It was stated that sometimes infractions are given but the purpose behind breaking that rule wasn't conveyed. So the member is to contact the moderator to explain why they broke the rules. If the moderator finds that reason legit then the moderator can reduce the infraction or eliminate it though elimination is not likely. If the situation the infraction was eliminated or reduced because the infraction couldn't be deleted because of a valid reason. Then the rule should list situations like the expressed on where the rule can be ignored. People who infractions for the same exact reason can avoid infractions. (They all don't appeal. It can be listed with these situations they need to make note that situation is going on with the post.
I also suggested finding out about how the community feels about the rules, admin, and site in general. Know your community is always beneficial.
Further suggestions were made by Uzmete:
Again all I said was that I find it funny no mods are responding.
Much of that is thanks to Qwerty and his comments.
I'm was referring to the tone used against myself not on the thread in general.
Again please please please don't put words in my mouth. The point was Customers do hold power. But yes this site has all those but as the saying go "Rome fell in a day."
You maybe right but I'm going to ask for proof it was the contraceptives and not the act of legalization. I'm aware it was part of the cause for the decline but the entire reason and the legalization played no role. Please show me evidence.
Again don't put words in my mouth please.
You've been drawing the wrong conclusion from my analogies. If you want to continue to take them out of context they are meant to be thats on you. With the definition of guarantee being given. How can you guarantee the possible changes won't improve the site? You've been implying it won't make the site better.
G Broodspawn G
I'm having trouble discerning what it is you're trying to talk about. If we make the rules so specific, then who knows what we'll be accused of next + there is the matter of people not even reading the current rules. The rules, as they stand, cover much of what can happen.
As for this particular case of necroing that you brought up...I don't see how making a new thread causes any problems. You say it creates more clutter. That's what thread deletion and archives are for, to remove old threads to trim clutter.
Alternatively, said person could have PM'd a mod asking what to do first. People do do that, and it works out well for all involved. Believe me, I'm much more happy to entertain a request than deal with someone breaking a rule(especially when asking in the first place avoids them breaking the rule).
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
... what?
Please do. But, also try to remember that a forum is not like soup. You can't change the forum's rules every day to "try something."
You can add more or less salt to soup each time you make it, but if the forum rules changed like that, people would get pretty pissed off.
Saying "the rules should be more specific" is different from saying "This is what the rules should be changed to: BLOCK OF NEW RULES."
You're still just saying "Things should be changed" but you're NOT saying what exactly they should be changed to.
I could say "the rules should be better, that would make the forum better" and everyone would agree. (making things better is good after all) But, simply stating that is not enough.
You cited an example of something you saw happen you did not like, but you did not outline EXACTLY how to change the rules to stop it from happening.
To what?
This already happens. An appeal system is already in place.
I have seen MANY infractions overturned by an admin, and permanently deleted from someones record as if they had never happened.
Which is the point of this subforum, but not this thread.
We've already gone over, at length, why that's not a good idea.
Would you like to address those points, or should I just c/p what others said for you to read?
Again, they are. But even if they were not, why should they check this thread again? This thread IS about how awesome they are. Also, they can't be expected to check EVERY thread.
Two wrongs don't make a right, last time I checked. And Qwerty's not even a mod. Why are you getting upset at the mods for what he is doing?
It's called Xenophobia.
If some new guy came into your favorite place and started criticizing everything in it, you would probably respond in a similar fashion. It's human nature to not like strangers telling you to change something you love.
This site does not have "Customers." I don't remember playing any money to be here, did you?
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
You can see the sharp rise right after 1973 when it was made legal.
If you compare this to a graph of how widespread contraception EDUCATION is, the results should become clear.
Is that my fault or the fault of your analogue? If it was a good analogy, there should be only one conciliation TO draw.
I am working within the context of your analogies, you just don't seem to fully understand the implications of them. Which is, again, not MY fault.
Well, again, a forum is a little more inflexible than soup. You can't just change the rules all willy nilly just to see what will happen.
Avoiding double posting is easy. Just copypaste the last post, delete it, and repost it in addition to the new updated info you were going to add.
Necroing is dumb due to the fact that someone bumps a thread that's several months old by asking for help on deck X, when deck X is now no longer viable like it was several months ago or something, or deck X is rotating out of the format, or whatever.
I might have more later.
I don't think you're in the right thread. The double posting thread is elsewhere and Necroing has nothing to do with the viability of Deck X. I realize it was some sort of example, but you missed with that one.
On to the off-topic discussion;
Spencersdream, first and foremost you should be infracted for your poor grammar, content, coherence and inability to re-read your posts for it. Second, the rules in this forum are strict for a reason. This site, like MTGNews, is based upon Magic Rumors for upcoming sets and releases. True there are many other things going on in here, but that is the core reason for this site. If you give people free reign, the place turns into a cesspool of idiocy. If you further define the rules to not allow for any vaguery (not really a word) than independent thinking goes right out the window. There are always people who will skirt the rules. If one of them finds a way around those rules and goes over board, adjustments are made. I can't see why it is so difficult to follow the written regulations of a privately owned site!?! Sure we break an occasional rule here and there, we get tagged by the mods. We can always argue that warning...though like in court, the chances of getting it turned around are slim.
That's life Tiger!
Imagine if I walked into your room, handed you a paint bucket, and said "Your room would be better if it was this color, you should repaint it."
Now, imagine if I did not even hand you a paint bucket, and just said "Your room would be better if it was a different color, repaint it."
Now, imagine I then got upset if you started to say you liked the color it was.
With all due respect, this attitude lies at the root of all the persistent unrest this site experiences. As soon as you start treating the annoying troublemakers like annoying trouble-makers, it's going to hit the fan. That's customer/community service 101.
To plagiarize myself, I doubt anyone here is upset that the moderation team takes their job seriously.
On the other hand, you are going to run into problems when the moderators take violators of the rule too seriously. No site I've ever seen has had such a long-standing history of dealing tactlessly and insensitively with its own members. The basic issue here is simply tact, and a healthy perspective.
Spammers and double-posters are not criminals. I'm sure the moderators are aware of that, nevertheless, this site is notorious for slipping into a pattern of treating them that way. Instead of flexing your customer service skills, it's more like a bad case of law enforcement/leadership role-playing.
This is the seed of your recurring public relations problems. Anyone remember when things got so bad that I was nearly appointed the public relations officer for the staff? It was a ridiculous problem then, and it still is - there are plenty of sites that maintain a high level of moderation without resembling the Gestapo, and without needing a PR officer to defend or advise them.
Happily, we've been seeing a few more moderators lately who have a good handle on this, particularly in my corners of the world (trading/forum games), but it's still a sporadic problem elsewhere. Hence, all these silly complaints that boil down to this same root issue: treating people insensitively.
Why, because he (correctly) issued you a spam infraction for posting on a sales thread doing nothing more than attacking the Market Street moderators?
That and before then he issued a spam infraction that wasn't just which was WHY I posted the 2nd post you are referring to.
So you think he's terrible because he gave you a warning and an infraction for breaking the rules?
Interesting.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
Interesting yes in that it is a new name come up. I thought it was Annorax people usually complained about.
@ Dontgetcaught: Did you read the sales lot rules before you made your first post? Guess you didn't because if you had, you would have seen these sections:
Your post was spam and got warned as such. If you had any issues with the warning you should have gone to Jabberwocky and appealed it not come here and complained.
AS to your second query.
In the market street and its subforums i would be very grateful that the mods are more officious than other parts of this site. If the worst happens they are going to be ones that step in when a trade goes bad and will be doing what they can to salvage it and get cards/money back where they belong.
Something that you may be thankful of in the future.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
No he didn't. He issued you a warning.
Even if he had issued you an infraction for the first post, that doesn't justify you making off-topic posts on somebody else's thread.