I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Do I agree that people shouldn't double-post? No, I think it's a dumb rule. I do agree that it is breaking the existing rules of the forum to do so, however. And dumb rule or not, it makes sense to follow the rules if possible- unless you don't care about losing your posting privileges.
Oh, and:
Originally Posted by MTGSalvation Official Forum Rules
Interpretation of the Forum Rules is always at the discretion of the MTGSalvation staff.
Well yeah, that is why this thread exists. If the rules were static and unchanging and never open to any debate or interpretation, there would be no point in having this thread. Kraj earlier said "it's impossible to create a flawless system. Most of the time addressing one flaw creates another." As a way to defend not fixing this obvious (though argued to be rare/minor) flaw in the rules. Well, you can't argue both sides. If you are in favor of having a fluid rules system where moderators can freely change around the rules at their whims, you can have that, but that completely destroys any argument of "well we can't make an exception for edited mod posts being followed by a double-post because the rules are too complicated already!".
Either they are too complicated, and you shouldn't be tweaking or changing them at all, or they are still capable of being tweaked and modified, and the subject of this thread is a perfectly legitimate change that could be made.
not at all. i've never visited a website, forum, bbs or any other community-minded site where i could honestly say that the community- good or bad- was a result of the rules and not the people.
i frequent a community weblog where the only form of policing is by a karma system with all members able to give positive and negative mods to all posts and comments. drop your karma too low and you have to earn some positive karma before you can post. you can always post comments, but as it only takes 5 negative mods to make your comment disappear from view, if someone comes to the site specifically to troll and flame, they'll not get very far when everything they say or do is modded into oblivion.
the system isn't perfect, but at the same time we don't have a cabal of moderators standing over us and rapping us on the knuckles every time we deign to break a rule, which is exactly what MTGS is like.
in the end, if you treat people like children, with endless, persnickety rules and anal and pedantic moderators more than happy to enforce every single one of them, you will always have an undercurrent of unrest.
I'm not sure what your getting at. What does your admittedly flawed forum, with a completely different base code, have to do with salvation?
I'm not sure what your getting at. What does your admittedly flawed forum, with a completely different base code, have to do with salvation?
The following perception of the moderators is the problem:
a cabal of moderators standing over us and rapping us on the knuckles every time we deign to break a rule, which is exactly what MTGS is like.
in the end, if you treat people like children, with endless, persnickety rules and anal and pedantic moderators more than happy to enforce every single one of them, you will always have an undercurrent of unrest.
Actually, the fact that this description is perfectly apt sometimes is the problem.
The actual rules? When it comes down to it, I don't think it makes a terrible amount of difference to anyone who has waded into the fray. Does the ability to make a double-post after a mod edit really matter much in the scheme of things? Hardly. I doubt anyone here is upset that the moderation team takes eliminating spam seriously.
On the other hand, you are going to run into problems when the moderators take violators of the rule too seriously. No site I've ever seen has had such a long-standing history of dealing tactlessly and insensitively with its own members. The basic issue here is simply tact, and a healthy perspective.
Spammers and double-posters are not criminals. I'm sure the moderators are aware of that, nevertheless, this site is notorious for slipping into a pattern of treating them that way. Instead of flexing your customer service skills, it's more like a bad case of law enforcement/leadership role-playing.
This is the seed of your recurring public relations problems. Anyone remember when things got so bad that I was nearly appointed the public relations officer for the staff? It was a ridiculous problem then, and it still is - there are plenty of sites that maintain a high level of moderation without resembling the Gestapo, and without needing a PR officer to defend or advise them.
Happily, we've been seeing a few more moderators lately who have a good handle on this, particularly in my corners of the world (trading/forum games), but it's still a sporadic problem elsewhere. Hence, all these silly complaints that boil down to this same root issue: treating people insensitively.
@Azrael
While I'm not sure what my statement has to do with yours (I was addressing Zom B talking about forums with different coding) I know I can't disagree with what you say.
The mods here make funny comments when they moderate (funny to 80%), or are condescending while being right. While I can't blame them for that, and know that it's not like they are being paid to be nice, I also can't argue that them being like that doesn't cause 'problems' in some people's perception, because it does. (like my own when I first came to the site)
Does the 'problems' caused outweigh the fun gained? (cuz, let's face it, them acting as they to other people is fun for the rest of us. Not that I've not gotten more than my share of infractions.)
I'm not sure what your getting at. What does your admittedly flawed forum, with a completely different base code, have to do with salvation?
how i can i put this? either you're trolling, both here and in the complaining about the mods thread, or you're simply unable to understand the arguments people are making.
what i was getting at, with my previous comment about a different forum, is that it works well and there is not a section anywhere on this other forum where people complain about the site administration. sure, there are complaints- the search function sucks, thumbnail limits are too small, etc.- but it's all trivial stuff that doesn't really bother anyone. the point is that the community polices itself. it doesn't require an overzealous band of guys prodding people with their mod-stick to make it run smoothly. it runs smoothly because the community wants it to run that way.
yes, the community wants mtgs to run smoothly as well, however, this is the most rules conscious forum i've ever visited and it shows. not only does it show, but there is an obvious and totally understandable level of annoyance regarding the rules.
the admins, mods and their supporters (or those who don't care) are happy with the system and make up the majority of the user base, so things won't change.
let me put it this way: i like mtgs because i can come here and get rules clarified. there's tons of information here. however, i don't like visiting mtgs. the mods and admins have created an unwelcome feel to the place and the general tone of the forum is kind of unpleasant.
what i was getting at, with my previous comment about a different forum, is that it works well and there is not a section anywhere on this other forum where people complain about the site administration. sure, there are complaints- the search function sucks, thumbnail limits are too small, etc.- but it's all trivial stuff that doesn't really bother anyone. the point is that the community polices itself. it doesn't require an overzealous band of guys prodding people with their mod-stick to make it run smoothly. it runs smoothly because the community wants it to run that way.
yes, the community wants mtgs to run smoothly as well, however, this is the most rules conscious forum i've ever visited and it shows. not only does it show, but there is an obvious and totally understandable level of annoyance regarding the rules.
Its because the mods want to cut down on the "trolling" and increase the info flow.
I've been to forums like the one you describe. They do indeed 'work.' However, the lax rules cause there to be an overabundance of useless or not well thought out posts. Not ALL posts are like that, true, but many are.
The amount of rules is more of a quality vs quantity issue. Less rules means less exclusion and more people, no denying that fact.
let me put it this way: i like mtgs because i can come here and get rules clarified. there's tons of information here. however, i don't like visiting mtgs. the mods and admins have created an unwelcome feel to the place and the general tone of the forum is kind of unpleasant.
Well this is exactly my point. (and I did not even read it beforehand)
Imagine, if you will, if this section of the forum had no regulation. Anyone was allowed to say whatever they wanted. Would that make it more or less useful? It would add more posts, that's for sure, but to what end?
I think i get what he wanted to say.
The mods are a little rough. Why can't all of them be like Kraj?
Also i don't think mods should not inforce the rules.
Imagine the mill without mods. Mods are good at what they do and the ones complaining are the ones who don't like a clean forum and a big community.
The shop in my city has a forum that's not that strictly enforced but that is because where only like 100 people and all know each other. You can't do the same in a forum as big as mtgs.
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The mods are a little rough. Why can't all of them be like Kraj?
Because someone forgot to pay the clone bill.
More seriously... why is this even an issue? Should they move the "enforcement is at the mods' discretion" line to the beginning in big blinking text so that everyone sees it first, or is everyone just busy rules-lawyering for the sake of it being something to do?
This is just my opinion, but while the moderations and rules may seem heavyhanded it is most certainly benefitial to this site.
I have seen many forums (and official game forums no less) go to hell in a handbasket because of a lack of moderation and partial moderation. If the person needs to add something to the discussion, he can wait. no one should be above the rules.
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Even if the author is silenced, the performance is stopped, the story will not end.
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
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- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
Mods are more or less the equivalent of Police but on the internet. If you do something that angers them but is not breaking any rules what do you think is going to happen? There going to find something wrong with what your doing and warn you about it to get back at you for whatever you just did that they can get you in trouble for. This is fact. Do you know that the police "by law" can not pull you over for not wearing a seatbelt because its a secondary offense. It is also the 1 and only secondary offense that they can not pull you over for. The rest of the offenses (the ones they can pull you over for) are in a book that is 4 inches thick and has text as small as text that is in the bible. So will they find something else to pull you over for? Likely. very very likely. =)
I have seen many forums (and official game forums no less) go to hell in a handbasket because of a lack of moderation and partial moderation. If the person needs to add something to the discussion, he can wait. no one should be above the rules.
I find this funny because A: the moderators ARE above the rules, and B: the whole point of this thread is to change a silly rule, such that you wouldn't be "above the rules" when posting after a moderation, because there would be no rule after such change.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Do I agree that people shouldn't double-post? No, I think it's a dumb rule. I do agree that it is breaking the existing rules of the forum to do so, however. And dumb rule or not, it makes sense to follow the rules if possible- unless you don't care about losing your posting privileges.
Well yeah, that is why this thread exists. If the rules were static and unchanging and never open to any debate or interpretation, there would be no point in having this thread. Kraj earlier said "it's impossible to create a flawless system. Most of the time addressing one flaw creates another." As a way to defend not fixing this obvious (though argued to be rare/minor) flaw in the rules. Well, you can't argue both sides. If you are in favor of having a fluid rules system where moderators can freely change around the rules at their whims, you can have that, but that completely destroys any argument of "well we can't make an exception for edited mod posts being followed by a double-post because the rules are too complicated already!".
Either they are too complicated, and you shouldn't be tweaking or changing them at all, or they are still capable of being tweaked and modified, and the subject of this thread is a perfectly legitimate change that could be made.
The following perception of the moderators is the problem:
Actually, the fact that this description is perfectly apt sometimes is the problem.
The actual rules? When it comes down to it, I don't think it makes a terrible amount of difference to anyone who has waded into the fray. Does the ability to make a double-post after a mod edit really matter much in the scheme of things? Hardly. I doubt anyone here is upset that the moderation team takes eliminating spam seriously.
On the other hand, you are going to run into problems when the moderators take violators of the rule too seriously. No site I've ever seen has had such a long-standing history of dealing tactlessly and insensitively with its own members. The basic issue here is simply tact, and a healthy perspective.
Spammers and double-posters are not criminals. I'm sure the moderators are aware of that, nevertheless, this site is notorious for slipping into a pattern of treating them that way. Instead of flexing your customer service skills, it's more like a bad case of law enforcement/leadership role-playing.
This is the seed of your recurring public relations problems. Anyone remember when things got so bad that I was nearly appointed the public relations officer for the staff? It was a ridiculous problem then, and it still is - there are plenty of sites that maintain a high level of moderation without resembling the Gestapo, and without needing a PR officer to defend or advise them.
Happily, we've been seeing a few more moderators lately who have a good handle on this, particularly in my corners of the world (trading/forum games), but it's still a sporadic problem elsewhere. Hence, all these silly complaints that boil down to this same root issue: treating people insensitively.
While I'm not sure what my statement has to do with yours (I was addressing Zom B talking about forums with different coding) I know I can't disagree with what you say.
The mods here make funny comments when they moderate (funny to 80%), or are condescending while being right. While I can't blame them for that, and know that it's not like they are being paid to be nice, I also can't argue that them being like that doesn't cause 'problems' in some people's perception, because it does. (like my own when I first came to the site)
Does the 'problems' caused outweigh the fun gained? (cuz, let's face it, them acting as they to other people is fun for the rest of us. Not that I've not gotten more than my share of infractions.)
I don't know.
how i can i put this? either you're trolling, both here and in the complaining about the mods thread, or you're simply unable to understand the arguments people are making.
what i was getting at, with my previous comment about a different forum, is that it works well and there is not a section anywhere on this other forum where people complain about the site administration. sure, there are complaints- the search function sucks, thumbnail limits are too small, etc.- but it's all trivial stuff that doesn't really bother anyone. the point is that the community polices itself. it doesn't require an overzealous band of guys prodding people with their mod-stick to make it run smoothly. it runs smoothly because the community wants it to run that way.
yes, the community wants mtgs to run smoothly as well, however, this is the most rules conscious forum i've ever visited and it shows. not only does it show, but there is an obvious and totally understandable level of annoyance regarding the rules.
the admins, mods and their supporters (or those who don't care) are happy with the system and make up the majority of the user base, so things won't change.
let me put it this way: i like mtgs because i can come here and get rules clarified. there's tons of information here. however, i don't like visiting mtgs. the mods and admins have created an unwelcome feel to the place and the general tone of the forum is kind of unpleasant.
Its because the mods want to cut down on the "trolling" and increase the info flow.
I've been to forums like the one you describe. They do indeed 'work.' However, the lax rules cause there to be an overabundance of useless or not well thought out posts. Not ALL posts are like that, true, but many are.
The amount of rules is more of a quality vs quantity issue. Less rules means less exclusion and more people, no denying that fact.
Well this is exactly my point. (and I did not even read it beforehand)
Imagine, if you will, if this section of the forum had no regulation. Anyone was allowed to say whatever they wanted. Would that make it more or less useful? It would add more posts, that's for sure, but to what end?
The mods are a little rough. Why can't all of them be like Kraj?
Also i don't think mods should not inforce the rules.
Imagine the mill without mods. Mods are good at what they do and the ones complaining are the ones who don't like a clean forum and a big community.
The shop in my city has a forum that's not that strictly enforced but that is because where only like 100 people and all know each other. You can't do the same in a forum as big as mtgs.
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the plane studios for this awesome sig and SGT_Chubbz for the awesome avy.
Check out the Shop Thread
More seriously... why is this even an issue? Should they move the "enforcement is at the mods' discretion" line to the beginning in big blinking text so that everyone sees it first, or is everyone just busy rules-lawyering for the sake of it being something to do?
(Probably NSFW) So you may have heard I'm trying to write a TV series...
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I have seen many forums (and official game forums no less) go to hell in a handbasket because of a lack of moderation and partial moderation. If the person needs to add something to the discussion, he can wait. no one should be above the rules.
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
I find this funny because A: the moderators ARE above the rules, and B: the whole point of this thread is to change a silly rule, such that you wouldn't be "above the rules" when posting after a moderation, because there would be no rule after such change.
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