Here's a legitimate debate I'd like to present to the forums (that will likely get me banned). It has come to my attention that the rules and moderators on MTG Salvation forums are totally out of control. I am NOT Trolling, I am NOT attempting to be a Nuisance. I believe this to be a GENUINE TOPIC that is in need of DEBATE. Here's my reasoning:
If you try to be helpful, and let someone know that their sales thread is missing prices, or that their trade thread is missing a wants section - YOU GET A WARNING. Yes, it's actually against the rules to try and help someone out by saying their thread is missing important information.
If a moderator asks you for the personal information of another user you have been involved with a trade in, you MUST give out THEIR personal information. Even if you had no problem with the user, if you decline to cooperate with moderators you will get a warning or potentially banned.
If you are gone too long - YOU GET A WARNING! yes, if a moderator contacts you while you are out of town, and you are unable to reply to the message in enough time you will get a warning and possibly banned for IGNORING a moderator.
If you post a picture on a debate thread that is RELEVANT to the topic - YOU GET A WARNING! Yes, posting a picture that may not add to the debate, even if it's relevant to the actual topic, is considered spam. SPAM.
(here comes the ban hammer - way to prove my point guys)
Ultimately, the board is in private hands and in a way of thinking you are a guest of that property. The rules tend to be conservative, over time rules become more lax in any system as the game changes hands a few times and there is a lack of drama and contention. To insist upon drama and the like is to invite the creation of rules and the subsistence of said rules continued existence.
Learn to exploit generational drift, especially in an online environment and it will take you a bit farther. This isn't a case of Apartheid.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
Just curious.. any reason you insist on posting this here rather than in the Community Issues section of the forum made for this type of discussion?
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
That's just how the site is. If it's not to your liking, best of luck finding another that discusses the topics you enjoy while having a moderation more in line with your preferences.
I primarily visit another site and just started posting more over the past little bit due to issues with that site's forum software becoming unstable.
I believe there's even a sub forum at the top for discussing moderation issues, but I doubt they're likely to change dramatically in the immediate future.
If you post a picture on a debate thread that is RELEVANT to the topic - YOU GET A WARNING! Yes, posting a picture that may not add to the debate, even if it's relevant to the actual topic, is considered spam. SPAM.
This is the only thing you mention that I actually saw.
How odd that posting a picture in Debate that didn't add to the debate was treated as spam. (I'm not convinced of its relevance to the topic, either).
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Quote from MD »
I am willing to bet my collection that Frozen and Solid are not on the same card. For example, Frozen Tomb and Solid Wall.
If Frozen Solid is not reprinted, you are aware that I'm quoting you in my sig for eternity?
Here's a legitimate debate I'd like to present to the forums (that will likely get me banned). It has come to my attention that the rules and moderators on MTG Salvation forums are totally out of control. I am NOT Trolling, I am NOT attempting to be a Nuisance. I believe this to be a GENUINE TOPIC that is in need of DEBATE. Here's my reasoning:
1.If you try to be helpful, and let someone know that their sales thread is missing prices, or that their trade thread is missing a wants section - YOU GET A WARNING. Yes, it's actually against the rules to try and help someone out by saying their thread is missing important information.
2.If a moderator asks you for the personal information of another user you have been involved with a trade in, you MUST give out THEIR personal information. Even if you had no problem with the user, if you decline to cooperate with moderators you will get a warning or potentially banned.
3.If you are gone too long - YOU GET A WARNING! yes, if a moderator contacts you while you are out of town, and you are unable to reply to the message in enough time you will get a warning and possibly banned for IGNORING a moderator.
4.If you post a picture on a debate thread that is RELEVANT to the topic - YOU GET A WARNING! Yes, posting a picture that may not add to the debate, even if it's relevant to the actual topic, is considered spam. SPAM.
(here comes the ban hammer - way to prove my point guys)
1. you can PM the user
2. The Mod usually has good reason and your involved in a BTR.
3. Talk to the mod, if not...go dispute it with a global mod or admin
4. A picture without text is not a debate point. What if you post a picture and the site where you got it, changes it to pornography. If you had text, it could be explainable.
The mods arent out of control and you wont be banned for this, unless your doing this to spite a mods request.....
EDIT: 2 mods responded and your not banned. Your case is looking on unstable ground as to the "Mods are out of control" arguement.
Here's a legitimate debate I'd like to present to the forums (that will likely get me banned).
Really? Look at how many threads there are in CI complaining about the mods where users haven't been banned.
This whole "users get banned for any criticism" thing is flat-out false.
If you try to be helpful, and let someone know that their sales thread is missing prices, or that their trade thread is missing a wants section - YOU GET A WARNING. Yes, it's actually against the rules to try and help someone out by saying their thread is missing important information.
Yes, it's against the rules because it's not your place to inform other users that they've broken the rules. If you see a post that violates the rules, report it and let the mods do their job.
If a moderator asks you for the personal information of another user you have been involved with a trade in, you MUST give out THEIR personal information. Even if you had no problem with the user, if you decline to cooperate with moderators you will get a warning or potentially banned.
The Market Street mods have quite possibly the toughest job of any staff on the site as they have to adjudicate disputes that aren't just "my internet forum rights have been violated" but disputes involving actual losses of valuable goods. Yes, they have quite a bit of power in carrying out those duties because they need it.
If you are gone too long - YOU GET A WARNING! yes, if a moderator contacts you while you are out of town, and you are unable to reply to the message in enough time you will get a warning and possibly banned for IGNORING a moderator.
And in those cases, I've also seen the staff unban people if they happen to come back and cooperate.
If you post a picture on a debate thread that is RELEVANT to the topic - YOU GET A WARNING! Yes, posting a picture that may not add to the debate, even if it's relevant to the actual topic, is considered spam. SPAM.
I saw the post in question and you're right; it adds nothing to the debate. Given that the thread is in the Debate forum, it's reasonable to expect that posts there actually add to the debate, and also reasonable to expect posts that don't to get moderated.
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I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
Here's a legitimate debate I'd like to present to the forums (that will likely get me banned). It has come to my attention that the rules and moderators on MTG Salvation forums are totally out of control. I am NOT Trolling, I am NOT attempting to be a Nuisance. I believe this to be a GENUINE TOPIC that is in need of DEBATE. Here's my reasoning:
If you try to be helpful, and let someone know that their sales thread is missing prices, or that their trade thread is missing a wants section - YOU GET A WARNING. Yes, it's actually against the rules to try and help someone out by saying their thread is missing important information.
If a moderator asks you for the personal information of another user you have been involved with a trade in, you MUST give out THEIR personal information. Even if you had no problem with the user, if you decline to cooperate with moderators you will get a warning or potentially banned.
If you are gone too long - YOU GET A WARNING! yes, if a moderator contacts you while you are out of town, and you are unable to reply to the message in enough time you will get a warning and possibly banned for IGNORING a moderator.
If you post a picture on a debate thread that is RELEVANT to the topic - YOU GET A WARNING! Yes, posting a picture that may not add to the debate, even if it's relevant to the actual topic, is considered spam. SPAM.
(here comes the ban hammer - way to prove my point guys)
1. Backseat Moderating. You use the Report button -OR- if your interested in someone's cards on their sales list, just PM them and say "Hey, I'm interested in some of your cards, but you don't have prices on them." Granted you could have also been looking at their trade list.
2. That's because BTRs are important and if a person is BTR'd, then you may have relevant information (such as a real address in the case of rippers).
3. I've never had this problem, but I'm guessing it's because of information in regards to a BTR and/or because you've been gone for a great length of time.
4. As you stated "posting a picture that may not add to the debate, even if it's relevant to the actual topic, is considered spam". Why? Because you are not giving anything to the debate. What purpose does it serve?
The picture was of something I made in support of Occupy Wall Street. I was simply sharing it. That is all. The mod marked it as SPAM, so I deleted it. So, I got an "infraction" for deleting my own "SPAM". If it's against the rules to post it, why is against the rules to delete it? Then, if it's against the rules to delete it - why should the forum allow me to delete it? Do you see how ridiculous this is? I thought I was being helpful.
Frankly, I feel like half the posts on THIS THREAD should be marked as FLAMING.
The picture was of something I made in support of Occupy Wall Street. I was simply sharing it. That is all. The mod marked it as SPAM, so I deleted it. So, I got an "infraction" for deleting my own "SPAM". If it's against the rules to post it, why is against the rules to delete it? Then, if it's against the rules to delete it - why should the forum allow me to delete it? Do you see how ridiculous this is? I thought I was being helpful.
Frankly, I feel like half the posts on THIS THREAD should be marked as FLAMING.
Ok, so we're flaming you by telling you how the rules work on a privately-owned forum where no one forces you to post something, and there are rules you must abide by, and by posting on here, you agree to follow.
If you dont like the rules and you dont like how there enforced, your free to go to another forum. No one will stop you from doing so.
The picture was of something I made in support of Occupy Wall Street. I was simply sharing it. That is all.
And it doesn't strike you that sharing a picture you made in debate thread, that by your own admission didn't contribute anything to the debate, might not have been appropriate?
The mod marked it as SPAM, so I deleted it. So, I got an "infraction" for deleting my own "SPAM". If it's against the rules to post it, why is against the rules to delete it?
Because the moderators chose not to delete it. Many moderators do this so other users can see what kind of behavior is and isn't allowed on the forum. If a moderator edits a post and chooses to leave it in place, it is not your place to decide to delete. (This is, in fact, explicitly forbidden in the forum rules.)
Then, if it's against the rules to delete it - why should the forum allow me to delete it?
Because vBulletin can't do that. You can't stop users from editing individual posts in a thread; the only way to do so is to lock the entire thread.
Do you see how ridiculous this is?
No, I don't.
Frankly, I feel like half the posts on THIS THREAD should be marked as FLAMING.
Looking for flaming on this thread. Not seeing it.
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I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
The picture was of something I made in support of Occupy Wall Street. I was simply sharing it. That is all. The mod marked it as SPAM, so I deleted it. So, I got an "infraction" for deleting my own "SPAM". If it's against the rules to post it, why is against the rules to delete it? Then, if it's against the rules to delete it - why should the forum allow me to delete it? Do you see how ridiculous this is? I thought I was being helpful.
Frankly, I feel like half the posts on THIS THREAD should be marked as FLAMING.
Look at it this way. Deleting an infracted post is like erasing the evidence of a misdeed.
Also, no one is flaming you. You don't have to take things so hard.
Being condescending is as much flaming as all out name calling. You, Binary, are being incredibly unprofessional, passive aggressive, and condescending.
Being condescending is as much flaming as all out name calling. You, Binary, are being incredibly unprofessional, passive aggressive, and condescending.
How is he unprofessional, passive aggressive, and condescending? Show us some proof.
oh and here is the main rules, specifically on trolling and flaming
Flaming is any sort of malicious verbal attack directed at another person. Racist or sexist comments, profane language (even if censored by the forum software), or other insults directed at another person are not tolerated anywhere on this site, including via private message. Trolling (posting inflammatory content with the intent of provoking a hostile reaction) is included. Using words such as "gay" and "retarded" outside of their proper context is not allowed.
Binary did not verbally attack you, he did not make racist or sexist comments, he did not insult you. He presented facts. You called him names (Condescending).....
Being condescending is as much flaming as all out name calling. You, Binary, are being incredibly unprofessional, passive aggressive, and condescending.
You seem to have issues with authority, or like to stir the pot just cause.
Do you know what a warning means on this forum? "A reminder that the behavior is not something we want members to do"
Do you know what an infraction means on this forum? "You broke the rules, this goes on your permanent record, three strikes, etc"
Warnings don't matter, and 90% of threads complaining about THE CRUEL AND OPPRESSIVE MODS are about warnings.
Which don't matter.
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Warnings and Infractions
In addition to the ability to edit posts by users, MTGSalvation Moderators may issue one of two types of sanctions on a post: Warnings or Infractions. The choice between a Warning or Infraction for an offense is at the discretion of the issuing Moderator.
If a moderator gives you a Warning, a Yellow Card will appear in the bottom right corner of the post for only you and Moderators to see and you will receive a private message describing the rule you violated. Warnings serve only as as a reminder of the Forum Rules and do not count towards a Suspension or Banning, and as such appeals of Warnings will not be heard by Global Moderators or Administrators.
Infractions, denoted by a Red Card on the post, may be issued for more serious rules violations, or where a user has repeatedly violated the same rule. Infractions remain active for a period of 40 days, and are permanently recorded on a user’s profile (even after expiration). Certain serious offenses and trading-related offenses may result in Infractions with longer-term (at least 6 months) expiration dates and/or Infractions that don't expire. Any user with three simultaneous active Infractions will be Suspended from the site.
You can check both Infractions and Warnings in your User Profile. Infractions will be listed with a Red Card before the link to the post, while Warnings will have a Yellow Card shown before the link. You can also check who gave you the Infraction, the details behind the Infraction, when the Infraction was given, and when it will expire.
Any Warnings/Infractions accumulated on one account will count against any other "gimmick" accounts you may have.
A warning clearly serves as a "reminder of the Forum Rules" - from my understanding when a less serious rule is violated.
I did not "repeatedly violated the same rule" or perform any "serious rules violation" - yet I received an infraction for violating a rule that I did not know was a rule. MAYBE I needed a "reminder of the Forum Rules" before I received the infraction.
Being condescending is as much flaming as all out name calling. You, Binary, are being incredibly unprofessional, passive aggressive, and condescending.
I'm not on staff anymore. I have no obligation to be professional.
As for being passive-aggressive, I don't know how I can possibly be more assertive in my arguments that your criticisms are without merit.
A warning clearly serves as a "reminder of the Forum Rules" - from my understanding when a less serious rule is violated.
I did not "repeatedly violated the same rule" or perform any "serious rules violation" - yet I received an infraction for violating a rule that I did not know was a rule. MAYBE I needed a "reminder of the Forum Rules" before I received the infraction.
Part of joining this forum is understanding the forum rules. You get multiple warnings, you're clearly not paying attention to the rules. So then you got an infraction; it clearly got your attention.
This whole thing is moronic. You got one infraction. Big deal. The rules are in place for reasons that have been discussed ad nauseam. Look around this subforum for a minute. They make the site work better. All but a very small, very vocal majority seem to think so.
It seems to me that you're just complaining to complain since everything on this area is running smoothly sans the BTR's, which I'm not sure about but there might be trouble going on there.
If you can't stand to be on this forum, go find another forum. No one is FORCING you to stay on this forum and post here unless there is literally a gun being pointed at you 24/7 and the man holding it is forcing you to go onto the MTGS forums (highly unlikely).
Also where are the flame posts again? I'm not seeing any sort of flaming going on in this thread. It's usually blatantly obvious if someone is flaming someone else. I'm not seeing it.
My 2 cents.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
You got a warning for spam. Warnings= not that serious. It's pretty much the mod saying "Please pay more attention to the forum rules when posting."
You then proceeded to delete the post, which is specifically against the forum rules. Obviously you deserved the infraction, and freaking out about how out of control the mods are is exactly the wrong response.
You got a warning, then got infracted for breaking another rule after you had been warned not to break the rules.
I (and for some strange reason I suspect many others) don't see the link between "I broke the rules I didn't read properly and then got in trouble for it" and "OMG persecution and draconian rule and evil evil mean nasty mods!"
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
A warning clearly serves as a "reminder of the Forum Rules" - from my understanding when a less serious rule is violated.
I did not "repeatedly violated the same rule" or perform any "serious rules violation" - yet I received an infraction for violating a rule that I did not know was a rule. MAYBE I needed a "reminder of the Forum Rules" before I received the infraction.
So.....i necro'd a thread in Rulings and got an infraction....on my 2nd day posting. I talked to the mod, he said it stood, and as bitter as i was, i went on my way
If you can't stand to be on this forum, go find another forum. No one is FORCING you to stay on this forum and post here unless there is literally a gun being pointed at you 24/7 and the man holding it is forcing you to go onto the MTGS forums (highly unlikely).
Exactly what I said.
And no one is flaming, in fact, it seems everyone is having a civil discussion of the matter.
@Mods viewing this, have you ever thought of making a stickied thread in CI for complaining about mods? Their seems to be a large number of these threads as of late and the same discussion is held each time. Just an idea.
If you try to be helpful, and let someone know that their sales thread is missing prices, or that their trade thread is missing a wants section - YOU GET A WARNING. Yes, it's actually against the rules to try and help someone out by saying their thread is missing important information.
If a moderator asks you for the personal information of another user you have been involved with a trade in, you MUST give out THEIR personal information. Even if you had no problem with the user, if you decline to cooperate with moderators you will get a warning or potentially banned.
If you are gone too long - YOU GET A WARNING! yes, if a moderator contacts you while you are out of town, and you are unable to reply to the message in enough time you will get a warning and possibly banned for IGNORING a moderator.
If you post a picture on a debate thread that is RELEVANT to the topic - YOU GET A WARNING! Yes, posting a picture that may not add to the debate, even if it's relevant to the actual topic, is considered spam. SPAM.
(here comes the ban hammer - way to prove my point guys)
Learn to exploit generational drift, especially in an online environment and it will take you a bit farther. This isn't a case of Apartheid.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
I primarily visit another site and just started posting more over the past little bit due to issues with that site's forum software becoming unstable.
I believe there's even a sub forum at the top for discussing moderation issues, but I doubt they're likely to change dramatically in the immediate future.
WCommander EeshaBDrana, Kalastria BloodchiefBGGlissa, the TraitorBWVish Kal, Blood ArbiterRUNin, the Pain Artist
UGEdric, Spymaster of TrestWRBasandra, Battle SeraphBGWDoran, the Siege TowerBGWGhave, Guru of Spores
RGWUril, the MiststalkerGUBThe MimeoplasmUWGRafiq of the ManyWUBRGSliver Overlord
Indeed there is. Thread moved.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
This is the only thing you mention that I actually saw.
How odd that posting a picture in Debate that didn't add to the debate was treated as spam. (I'm not convinced of its relevance to the topic, either).
LOL
1. you can PM the user
2. The Mod usually has good reason and your involved in a BTR.
3. Talk to the mod, if not...go dispute it with a global mod or admin
4. A picture without text is not a debate point. What if you post a picture and the site where you got it, changes it to pornography. If you had text, it could be explainable.
The mods arent out of control and you wont be banned for this, unless your doing this to spite a mods request.....
EDIT: 2 mods responded and your not banned. Your case is looking on unstable ground as to the "Mods are out of control" arguement.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyReally? Look at how many threads there are in CI complaining about the mods where users haven't been banned.
This whole "users get banned for any criticism" thing is flat-out false.
Yes, it's against the rules because it's not your place to inform other users that they've broken the rules. If you see a post that violates the rules, report it and let the mods do their job.
The Market Street mods have quite possibly the toughest job of any staff on the site as they have to adjudicate disputes that aren't just "my internet forum rights have been violated" but disputes involving actual losses of valuable goods. Yes, they have quite a bit of power in carrying out those duties because they need it.
And in those cases, I've also seen the staff unban people if they happen to come back and cooperate.
I saw the post in question and you're right; it adds nothing to the debate. Given that the thread is in the Debate forum, it's reasonable to expect that posts there actually add to the debate, and also reasonable to expect posts that don't to get moderated.
1. Backseat Moderating. You use the Report button -OR- if your interested in someone's cards on their sales list, just PM them and say "Hey, I'm interested in some of your cards, but you don't have prices on them." Granted you could have also been looking at their trade list.
2. That's because BTRs are important and if a person is BTR'd, then you may have relevant information (such as a real address in the case of rippers).
3. I've never had this problem, but I'm guessing it's because of information in regards to a BTR and/or because you've been gone for a great length of time.
4. As you stated "posting a picture that may not add to the debate, even if it's relevant to the actual topic, is considered spam". Why? Because you are not giving anything to the debate. What purpose does it serve?
/two cents
If so, I agree that post added no actual value to the thread. I don't understand the point of linking to that picture.
Frankly, I feel like half the posts on THIS THREAD should be marked as FLAMING.
Ok, so we're flaming you by telling you how the rules work on a privately-owned forum where no one forces you to post something, and there are rules you must abide by, and by posting on here, you agree to follow.
If you dont like the rules and you dont like how there enforced, your free to go to another forum. No one will stop you from doing so.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyAnd it doesn't strike you that sharing a picture you made in debate thread, that by your own admission didn't contribute anything to the debate, might not have been appropriate?
Because the moderators chose not to delete it. Many moderators do this so other users can see what kind of behavior is and isn't allowed on the forum. If a moderator edits a post and chooses to leave it in place, it is not your place to decide to delete. (This is, in fact, explicitly forbidden in the forum rules.)
Because vBulletin can't do that. You can't stop users from editing individual posts in a thread; the only way to do so is to lock the entire thread.
No, I don't.
Looking for flaming on this thread. Not seeing it.
Also, no one is flaming you. You don't have to take things so hard.
How is he unprofessional, passive aggressive, and condescending? Show us some proof.
oh and here is the main rules, specifically on trolling and flaming
Binary did not verbally attack you, he did not make racist or sexist comments, he did not insult you. He presented facts. You called him names (Condescending).....
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyYou seem to have issues with authority, or like to stir the pot just cause.
Do you know what a warning means on this forum? "A reminder that the behavior is not something we want members to do"
Do you know what an infraction means on this forum? "You broke the rules, this goes on your permanent record, three strikes, etc"
Warnings don't matter, and 90% of threads complaining about THE CRUEL AND OPPRESSIVE MODS are about warnings.
Which don't matter.
Twitter
From the rules (emphasis added)
A warning clearly serves as a "reminder of the Forum Rules" - from my understanding when a less serious rule is violated.
I did not "repeatedly violated the same rule" or perform any "serious rules violation" - yet I received an infraction for violating a rule that I did not know was a rule. MAYBE I needed a "reminder of the Forum Rules" before I received the infraction.
I'm not on staff anymore. I have no obligation to be professional.
As for being passive-aggressive, I don't know how I can possibly be more assertive in my arguments that your criticisms are without merit.
Part of joining this forum is understanding the forum rules. You get multiple warnings, you're clearly not paying attention to the rules. So then you got an infraction; it clearly got your attention.
This whole thing is moronic. You got one infraction. Big deal. The rules are in place for reasons that have been discussed ad nauseam. Look around this subforum for a minute. They make the site work better. All but a very small, very vocal majority seem to think so.
RRR Buy some of my art! Prints! RRR
If you can't stand to be on this forum, go find another forum. No one is FORCING you to stay on this forum and post here unless there is literally a gun being pointed at you 24/7 and the man holding it is forcing you to go onto the MTGS forums (highly unlikely).
Also where are the flame posts again? I'm not seeing any sort of flaming going on in this thread. It's usually blatantly obvious if someone is flaming someone else. I'm not seeing it.
My 2 cents.
Currently Playing:
Retired
You then proceeded to delete the post, which is specifically against the forum rules. Obviously you deserved the infraction, and freaking out about how out of control the mods are is exactly the wrong response.
You got a warning, then got infracted for breaking another rule after you had been warned not to break the rules.
I (and for some strange reason I suspect many others) don't see the link between "I broke the rules I didn't read properly and then got in trouble for it" and "OMG persecution and draconian rule and evil evil mean nasty mods!"
These kinds of threads always amuse me.
{Magic: The RPG}
So.....i necro'd a thread in Rulings and got an infraction....on my 2nd day posting. I talked to the mod, he said it stood, and as bitter as i was, i went on my way
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyExactly what I said.
And no one is flaming, in fact, it seems everyone is having a civil discussion of the matter.
@Mods viewing this, have you ever thought of making a stickied thread in CI for complaining about mods? Their seems to be a large number of these threads as of late and the same discussion is held each time. Just an idea.
LOL