So, I'm wondering exactly why the staff shut down a specific forum? There's no report on Site-Wide Issues. Without an explanation, people get to assuming things and jumping to conclusions. Thanks.
EDIT: It sure smells like 2009 forum awards in here. And GiantITP.
Musing: To date (over 2 years), I've contributed to this website in EDH, WCT, the Music subforum, a lot in Debate (especially in Religion), Clans, Mafia, the Pen & Paper Inn, and Card Creation Games. To date, my infractions list a single warning for image leeching. I wonder how my image will be contorted now that I'm associated with something undesirable...
You just don't understand man. If you've got a huge tumor growing on your lip (from chewing tobacco, for instance), you don't get rid of the tumor... you get rid of the dentist who keeps telling you that tumor is a problem. Then you go back to chewing again.
Duh!
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The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
I believe it's generally purported that the users who frequented that specific forum were "totally out of control!!!!!"
Now that this pressing problem that derailed the site for years and years has been rectified, maybe some action will be taken on the deadbeat moderation in WCT!
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The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
This aggreivance is unacceptable and frankly does not fly. I will not fade quietly into the gentle night and will continue this swansong until you lock me back in Pandora's Box.
Guys, I realize everyone can be outraged at seeing the gutter scapegoated for what it seems the final time, but I'd appreciate that we try to steer this discussion in a constructive way:
It appears the gutter has been permanently shut down because some of its members asked in a helpdesk for a moderator to be more polite in his interactions with the userbase.
Discuss.
That's the real issue here. We have NO explanation other than "This is why we can't have nice things" for shutting down a very active part of the website because users had a grievance with certain moderator actions. That just seems absurd. Like, if enough people are angry with this, are we going to shut down Community Issues? What if people talk outside of the forum about the forum? Do you ban them just because you don't like their opinion?
Some people even state that the gutter has commited targeted attacks. I don't see how mentioning a thread, and people seeing that thread replying individually constitutes a coordinated "attack."
They just want to remain aloof and pretend their cool kids club is a big, exclusive secret.
No, it's more because you're not supposed to talk about the Gutter outside of the Gutter. Why did you want to join a cool kids club in the first place?
They just want to remain aloof and pretend their cool kids club is a big, exclusive secret.
Thank you for your input but you have obviously made a biased opinion without fully reading into the issue. I would suggest reading up on some of the recent posts in the moderator helpdesk forum. I know that for whatever reason you seem to have some sort of bias against members of the gutter, but I'm not sure what the grounds for this comment are. I feel like if you actually read into this issue you would likely find you have plenty of common ground with our arguments, and I sincerely implore you to do so. I've really got no beef with you dawg.
Edit: Just as a matter of public record LogicX did try to join the gutter, and only "withdrew" because he wasn't going to be let in because he didn't meet our single entrance requirement. Still though, why the beef.
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Official Moderator of The [Gutter]
Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
It has become taboo to point out any misconduct by the staff in a place where everyone can see. Users like myself don't have access to the moderator lounge so we are forced to ONLY discuss issues with the moderation/administration through Private Message. The problem with this route is that the moderator/administrator has the choice of whether they want to answer your question without conflict. I mean...it's their word against yours, right?
It's a shame that these discussion can't be had without someone's feelings getting hurt. The openness of these forums is what drew me here in the first place. We've dragged down the site to MTGNews standards at this point.
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"Talkin outta turn....That's a paddlin'. Starin' at my sandals....That's a paddlin'. Paddlin' the school canoe....You better believe that's a paddlin'!" --Jasper
I am sorry, but this is complete an utter bullcrap. The issue with that mod was started by non-gutter users and some of the more vocal users took up the mantle and helped defend the less vocal of us. Im starting to see the logic in some of the users who claim "MTGS sucks because of the mods". When the way the administrative staff tries to quell a group by shutting down something they like.......
To the mods who may read this:
My message won't be to most of you. Hell, its more directed at 2 of the mods. So to carry on, your only mods because we as a userbase allow you. Your power is derived from the regular users posting on here and discussing ideas. If you decide that power you derived from our posting allows you to use it in any way you see fit, be prepared for a backlash. You've already upset a vocal part of the community, I don't think that wanting to push even more is a wise idea.
Thank you for your input but you have obviously made a biased opinion without fully reading into the issue. I would suggest reading up on some of the recent posts in the moderator helpdesk forum. I know that for whatever reason you seem to have some sort of bias against members of the gutter, but I'm not sure what the grounds for this comment are. I feel like if you actually read into this issue you would likely find you have plenty of common ground with our arguments, and I sincerely implore you to do so. I've really got no beef with you dawg.
Edit: Just as a matter of public record LogicX did try to join the gutter, and only "withdrew" because he wasn't going to be let in because he didn't meet our single entrance requirement. Still though, why the beef.
Yes, I withdrew because I don't like revealing personal information on the internet. Just a rule I have. I was assured that it would be kept private but I just didn't feel comfortable with it.
And with your above post it seems that I made the right choice, because what I believed would be a private matter (my private messages in the application process) is now being openly discussed in this thread, I can only assume in an attempt to shame or discredit me. I can only imagine what would have happened with my supposedly private photo that I was supposed to send in.
My best guess is that this came directly from Hannes, or a conversation between Hannes and site admin (is Yukora still AWOL?). Hannes is not exactly known for keeping close tabs on the day to day affairs and details of events happening around the site. I think he tends to rely on secondhand information.
I think perhaps this section of the forum should never have existed here to begin with, but taking it away now is going to be devastating to its members.
This spat started when users stood up for transparency and high standards of moderation on this site - and certain members of our staff didn't like being criticized. Of all the possible reasons the staff could have chosen to use to close the gutter, I think this is the one most likely to make us look like the bad guys. They didn't break a single forum rule - there wasn't a single infraction - and we're not taking the moral high ground on the nature of the gutter and its unsuitability for the site. The users just told us we sucked. I'm worried we just proved them right.
Yes, I withdrew because I don't like revealing personal information on the internet. Just a rule I have. I was assured that it would be kept private but I just didn't feel comfortable with it.
And with your above post it seems that I made the right choice, because what I believed would be a private matter (my private messages in the application process) is now being openly discussed in this thread, I can only assume in an attempt to shame or discredit me. I can only imagine what would have happened with my supposedly private photo that I was supposed to send in.
I'm not attempting to shame or discredit you, simply attempting to make sure all the facts are out there. To say you simply "withdrew" in a manner as to appear like you had close to little desire to join what you somewhat rudefully called "our cool kids club" was a little off base. I am however in now way attempting to defame your character, as I have had little to no interaction with you and have no reason to do that. All I'm asking is instead of having an irrational bias against the gutter, especially related to this situation (which you don't appear to actually be at all involved in the situation or have an opinion, choosing instead to just defame the gutter), you instead go and familiarize yourself with the situation. If you still have this same attitude afterwards, so be it. I'm not sure what you are looking to accomplish here just by antagonizing a group of members unnecessarily though.
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Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
My best guess is that this came directly from Hannes, or a conversation between Hannes and site admin (is Yukora still AWOL?). Hannes is not exactly known for keeping close tabs on the day to day affairs and details of events happening around the site. I think he tends to rely on secondhand information.
I don't think this section of the forum should have existed here to begin with, but taking it away is going to be devastating to its members.
This spat started when users stood up for transparency and high standards of moderation on this site - and certain members of our staff didn't like being criticized. Of all the possible reasons the staff could have chosen to use to close the gutter, I think this is the one most likely to make us look like the bad guys. They didn't break a single forum rule - there wasn't a single infraction - and we're not taking the moral high ground on the nature of the gutter and its unsuitability for the site. The users just told us we sucked. And I'm afraid we just proved them right.
It's good to see that my assertion that most mods aren't power abusing users is founded in well faith.
Why can Azrael, a mod, be able to express his feelings and make users feel validated, while other mods leave users feeling betrayed?
As someone who knew all about the inner workings of this site, this is unacceptable. Originally, I was against the Gutter myself until I realized that they help keep the mod staff in check. Sometimes a poster would PM myself or another global with a grievance and the issue could take weeks or months to even get acknowledged, much less resolved. The Gutter brought issues into the light and for that they should be commended. Do they cause mods to be pissed from time to time? Yes. Do mods cause the users to be pissed from time to time? Yes. What happened to that 'gutter / staff ' discussion thread that was promised before I stepped down? Where is the transparency?
I resigned because as a staff member I acted inappropriately. I felt so disheartened that I, someone who spent hours hunting down banned gimmicks and rule breakers, broke the rules myself. There are numerous other staff members who acted in similar fashion, and while I will not expose them, they really should take a hard look at themselves and whether they should still be mods.
The hard-line stance that staff takes at every turn is frustrating for the users and the mods. There are threads where the mods vent specifically out of frustration at the userbase. Would these threads exist if the users had a better relationship with the mods? Probably not.
I think many ex-staffers feel the same way I do. MTGS is a site about a children's card game. It is not srs bsns. It took me time to realize that, but folks, it's true. I resigned and took about a month and a half off from posting on this site. It felt great. No more would I log in and see drama thread after drama thread or petty complaint after petty complaint. First day back....and this.
So to carry on, your only mods because we as a userbase allow you.
Not true. If we held "elections" for mods, many mods would be voted out with overwhelming fervor. Some mods do hold onto power by stifling discourse. Without the Gutter, who will let the bad mods know that they're doing a bad job? PMs do not work, I know this for a fact. For a fact. As I mentioned above, sometimes issues would take so long to get resolved (assuming they were even acknowledged) that the person with the grievance would either have gone away or stopped caring by then.
I'm not attempting to shame or discredit you, simply attempting to make sure all the facts are out there. To say you simply "withdrew" in a manner as to appear like you had close to little desire to join what you somewhat rudefully called "our cool kids club" was a little off base. I am however in now way attempting to defame your character, as I have had little to no interaction with you and have no reason to do that. All I'm asking is instead of having an irrational bias against the gutter, especially related to this situation (which you don't appear to actually be at all involved in the situation or have an opinion, choosing instead to just defame the gutter), you instead go and familiarize yourself with the situation. If you still have this same attitude afterwards, so be it. I'm not sure what you are looking to accomplish here just by antagonizing a group of members unnecessarily though.
I thought it was a forum just like water cooler, just less strictly moderated. When a mod told me that it may not be for me if I didn't want to provide a photo, because the gutter members were normally very open with posting photos of themselves, yes I did decide that I no longer had interest in it.
Someone asked what this topic was about, so I told them. I did this because the topic creator and other posters chose to not say explicitly that they were talking about the gutter. Why not just say the name of it in the first place?
I think it is funny that the gutter members try to maintain this aura of exclusivity and secrecy, and it seems a little pretentious to me, so that was the background for my posts content.
EDIT: Sorry for derailing this thread, I just felt the need to explain myself.
It's about time the plug was pulled from the Gutter. Good riddance.
Thank you for your input but you have obviously made a biased opinion without fully reading into the issue. I would suggest reading up on some of the recent posts in the moderator helpdesk forum. I know that for whatever reason you seem to have some sort of bias against members of the gutter, but I'm not sure what the grounds for this comment are. I feel like if you actually read into this issue you would likely find you have plenty of common ground with our arguments, and I sincerely implore you to do so. I've really got no beef with you dawg.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Official Moderator of The [Gutter]
Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
This spat started when users stood up for transparency and high standards of moderation on this site - and certain members of our staff didn't like being criticized. Of all the possible reasons the staff could have chosen to use to close the gutter, I think this is the one most likely to make us look like the bad guys. They didn't break a single forum rule - there wasn't a single infraction - and we're not taking the moral high ground on the nature of the gutter and its unsuitability for the site. The users just told us we sucked. I'm worried we just proved them right.
For anyone who is curious to what Azrael is referring to, here is where a user originally appealed an infraction giving, and here is where Talore offered an alternative when he probably (I can't speak for Talore) realized that was the user's best chance to get the issue sorted.
As someone who knew all about the inner workings of this site, this is unacceptable. Originally, I was against the Gutter myself until I realized that they help keep the mod staff in check. Sometimes a poster would PM myself or another global with a grievance and the issue could take weeks or months to even get acknowledged, much less resolved. The Gutter brought issues into the light and for that they should be commended. Do they cause mods to be pissed from time to time? Yes. Do mods cause the users to be pissed from time to time? Yes. What happened to that 'gutter / staff ' discussion thread that was promised before I stepped down? Where is the transparency?
I resigned because as a staff member I acted inappropriately. I felt so disheartened that I, someone who spent hours hunting down banned gimmicks and rule breakers, broke the rules myself. There are numerous other staff members who acted in similar fashion, and while I will not expose them, they really should take a hard look at themselves and whether they should still be mods.
The hard-line stance that staff takes at every turn is frustrating for the users and the mods. There are threads where the mods vent specifically out of frustration at the userbase. Would these threads exist if the users had a better relationship with the mods? Probably not.
I think many ex-staffers feel the same way I do. MTGS is a site about a children's card game. It is not srs bsns. It took me time to realize that, but folks, it's true. I resigned and took about a month and a half off from posting on this site. It felt great. No more would I log in and see drama thread after drama thread or petty complaint after petty complaint. First day back....and this.
Not true. If we held "elections" for mods, many mods would be voted out with overwhelming fervor. Some mods do hold onto power by stifling discourse. Without the Gutter, who will let the bad mods know that they're doing a bad job? PMs do not work, I know this for a fact. For a fact. As I mentioned above, sometimes issues would take so long to get resolved (assuming they were even acknowledged) that the person with the grievance would either have gone away or stopped caring by then.
It will and it is. This is not a Mike "Hunt" Flores situation. This is mods getting cranky for being called cranky in public.
I've said my piece. I, like many ex-staffers, have realized that this site has more to take from you than it has to give.
1. It's good to see you back and blah blah blah, i'll save the long winded speech.
2. What did you exactly do?
3. No matter what you did, i still believe that you still deserved your title.
4. I dont care, im still going to think that way.
PM me when you read this. Im interested in your thoughts.
This spat started when users stood up for transparency and high standards of moderation on this site - and certain members of our staff didn't like being criticized. Of all the possible reasons the staff could have chosen to use to close the gutter, I think this is the one most likely to make us look like the bad guys. They didn't break a single forum rule - there wasn't a single infraction - and we're not taking the moral high ground on the nature of the gutter and its unsuitability for the site. The users just told us we sucked. I'm worried we just proved them right.
I was thinking exactly the same thing.
The fact that I was not a fan of the Gutter when I was on staff should come as no surprise to anybody staff, gutterite, or otherwise that was paying attention.
But the timing of this smacks of trying to shut down criticism. The charges being levied against the staff were being done in a reasonable manner (at least in my eyes), and when the perception is already that such criticism is being swept under the rug, a decision like this does nothing but reinforce that perception, even if the perception is inaccurate.
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I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
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EDIT: It sure smells like 2009 forum awards in here. And GiantITP.
Musing: To date (over 2 years), I've contributed to this website in EDH, WCT, the Music subforum, a lot in Debate (especially in Religion), Clans, Mafia, the Pen & Paper Inn, and Card Creation Games. To date, my infractions list a single warning for image leeching. I wonder how my image will be contorted now that I'm associated with something undesirable...
Fully-powered 600-Card "Dream Cube" https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/dreamcube
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Duh!
The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
Now that this pressing problem that derailed the site for years and years has been rectified, maybe some action will be taken on the deadbeat moderation in WCT!
The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
What he said, but with a much more confused tone.
WReya DawnbringerWGBounteous KirinGRUrabrask the HiddenR
They just want to remain aloof and pretend their cool kids club is a big, exclusive secret.
That's the real issue here. We have NO explanation other than "This is why we can't have nice things" for shutting down a very active part of the website because users had a grievance with certain moderator actions. That just seems absurd. Like, if enough people are angry with this, are we going to shut down Community Issues? What if people talk outside of the forum about the forum? Do you ban them just because you don't like their opinion?
Some people even state that the gutter has commited targeted attacks. I don't see how mentioning a thread, and people seeing that thread replying individually constitutes a coordinated "attack."
No, it's more because you're not supposed to talk about the Gutter outside of the Gutter. Why did you want to join a cool kids club in the first place?
So secretive that it has a wiki page and you're currently posting about it in a CI thread about it started by its own members.
This thread isn't about why you're holding a grudge because you didn't make the cut, its about a community issue.
I cancelled my application when I did apply a while ago, I didn't "not make the cut."
Thank you for your input but you have obviously made a biased opinion without fully reading into the issue. I would suggest reading up on some of the recent posts in the moderator helpdesk forum. I know that for whatever reason you seem to have some sort of bias against members of the gutter, but I'm not sure what the grounds for this comment are. I feel like if you actually read into this issue you would likely find you have plenty of common ground with our arguments, and I sincerely implore you to do so. I've really got no beef with you dawg.
Edit: Just as a matter of public record LogicX did try to join the gutter, and only "withdrew" because he wasn't going to be let in because he didn't meet our single entrance requirement. Still though, why the beef.
It's a shame that these discussion can't be had without someone's feelings getting hurt. The openness of these forums is what drew me here in the first place. We've dragged down the site to MTGNews standards at this point.
To the mods who may read this:
My message won't be to most of you. Hell, its more directed at 2 of the mods. So to carry on, your only mods because we as a userbase allow you. Your power is derived from the regular users posting on here and discussing ideas. If you decide that power you derived from our posting allows you to use it in any way you see fit, be prepared for a backlash. You've already upset a vocal part of the community, I don't think that wanting to push even more is a wise idea.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyYes, I withdrew because I don't like revealing personal information on the internet. Just a rule I have. I was assured that it would be kept private but I just didn't feel comfortable with it.
And with your above post it seems that I made the right choice, because what I believed would be a private matter (my private messages in the application process) is now being openly discussed in this thread, I can only assume in an attempt to shame or discredit me. I can only imagine what would have happened with my supposedly private photo that I was supposed to send in.
My best guess is that this came directly from Hannes, or a conversation between Hannes and site admin (is Yukora still AWOL?). Hannes is not exactly known for keeping close tabs on the day to day affairs and details of events happening around the site. I think he tends to rely on secondhand information.
I think perhaps this section of the forum should never have existed here to begin with, but taking it away now is going to be devastating to its members.
This spat started when users stood up for transparency and high standards of moderation on this site - and certain members of our staff didn't like being criticized. Of all the possible reasons the staff could have chosen to use to close the gutter, I think this is the one most likely to make us look like the bad guys. They didn't break a single forum rule - there wasn't a single infraction - and we're not taking the moral high ground on the nature of the gutter and its unsuitability for the site. The users just told us we sucked. I'm worried we just proved them right.
I'm not attempting to shame or discredit you, simply attempting to make sure all the facts are out there. To say you simply "withdrew" in a manner as to appear like you had close to little desire to join what you somewhat rudefully called "our cool kids club" was a little off base. I am however in now way attempting to defame your character, as I have had little to no interaction with you and have no reason to do that. All I'm asking is instead of having an irrational bias against the gutter, especially related to this situation (which you don't appear to actually be at all involved in the situation or have an opinion, choosing instead to just defame the gutter), you instead go and familiarize yourself with the situation. If you still have this same attitude afterwards, so be it. I'm not sure what you are looking to accomplish here just by antagonizing a group of members unnecessarily though.
It's good to see that my assertion that most mods aren't power abusing users is founded in well faith.
Why can Azrael, a mod, be able to express his feelings and make users feel validated, while other mods leave users feeling betrayed?
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyI resigned because as a staff member I acted inappropriately. I felt so disheartened that I, someone who spent hours hunting down banned gimmicks and rule breakers, broke the rules myself. There are numerous other staff members who acted in similar fashion, and while I will not expose them, they really should take a hard look at themselves and whether they should still be mods.
The hard-line stance that staff takes at every turn is frustrating for the users and the mods. There are threads where the mods vent specifically out of frustration at the userbase. Would these threads exist if the users had a better relationship with the mods? Probably not.
I think many ex-staffers feel the same way I do. MTGS is a site about a children's card game. It is not srs bsns. It took me time to realize that, but folks, it's true. I resigned and took about a month and a half off from posting on this site. It felt great. No more would I log in and see drama thread after drama thread or petty complaint after petty complaint. First day back....and this.
Not true. If we held "elections" for mods, many mods would be voted out with overwhelming fervor. Some mods do hold onto power by stifling discourse. Without the Gutter, who will let the bad mods know that they're doing a bad job? PMs do not work, I know this for a fact. For a fact. As I mentioned above, sometimes issues would take so long to get resolved (assuming they were even acknowledged) that the person with the grievance would either have gone away or stopped caring by then.
It will and it is. This is not a Mike "Hunt" Flores situation. This is mods getting cranky for being called cranky in public.
I've said my piece. I, like many ex-staffers, have realized that this site has more to take from you than it has to give.
EDIT: Hopefully, that can change. Will it? That remains to be seen.
I thought it was a forum just like water cooler, just less strictly moderated. When a mod told me that it may not be for me if I didn't want to provide a photo, because the gutter members were normally very open with posting photos of themselves, yes I did decide that I no longer had interest in it.
Someone asked what this topic was about, so I told them. I did this because the topic creator and other posters chose to not say explicitly that they were talking about the gutter. Why not just say the name of it in the first place?
I think it is funny that the gutter members try to maintain this aura of exclusivity and secrecy, and it seems a little pretentious to me, so that was the background for my posts content.
EDIT: Sorry for derailing this thread, I just felt the need to explain myself.
Thank you for your input but you have obviously made a biased opinion without fully reading into the issue. I would suggest reading up on some of the recent posts in the moderator helpdesk forum. I know that for whatever reason you seem to have some sort of bias against members of the gutter, but I'm not sure what the grounds for this comment are. I feel like if you actually read into this issue you would likely find you have plenty of common ground with our arguments, and I sincerely implore you to do so. I've really got no beef with you dawg.
For anyone who is curious to what Azrael is referring to, here is where a user originally appealed an infraction giving, and here is where Talore offered an alternative when he probably (I can't speak for Talore) realized that was the user's best chance to get the issue sorted.
The GJ way path to no lynching:
1. It's good to see you back and blah blah blah, i'll save the long winded speech.
2. What did you exactly do?
3. No matter what you did, i still believe that you still deserved your title.
4. I dont care, im still going to think that way.
PM me when you read this. Im interested in your thoughts.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyI was thinking exactly the same thing.
The fact that I was not a fan of the Gutter when I was on staff should come as no surprise to anybody staff, gutterite, or otherwise that was paying attention.
But the timing of this smacks of trying to shut down criticism. The charges being levied against the staff were being done in a reasonable manner (at least in my eyes), and when the perception is already that such criticism is being swept under the rug, a decision like this does nothing but reinforce that perception, even if the perception is inaccurate.