Thank you for your input but you have obviously made a biased opinion without fully reading into the issue. I would suggest reading up on some of the recent posts in the moderator helpdesk forum. I know that for whatever reason you seem to have some sort of bias against members of the gutter, but I'm not sure what the grounds for this comment are. I feel like if you actually read into this issue you would likely find you have plenty of common ground with our arguments, and I sincerely implore you to do so. I've really got no beef with you dawg.
For the sake of this thread, do you think you could dig out the relevant posts or point me to them?
Trust me, I know that mods can be cranky and unwilling to listen to reason.
Just the other day, I got an infraction for my "tone" in a post. The same day that a mod posted this:
I would have gotten a spam infraction, and possibly a flaming infraction too if I had posted that.
I contacted an admin about it but they haven't responded yet.
The mod in question responded once to a PM that I sent about my infraction, and then wouldn't respond further. And I can't PM him again because last time he became unresponsive and I sent him another PM he threatened to infract me if I contacted him again.
He also has threatened to infract me for reporting the posts that could be infracted for the same reasons that I get infracted for. He doesn't like his double standard being pointed out.
The preceding isn't to make this thread about me, just to throw my general support behind the notion that mods can be stubborn. Just look at my thread in CI with harkius from a few months back.
There was also a rumor that someone, potentially gutter-related, was planning an attack on the forum. That could also have been behind this. I'm hoping that was the true reason, and not the Woap situation.
I can assure that no such talk came from the gutter itself, and that it seems to not be the reason given:
Quote from Hannes »
As always, you needed to push it a little too far.
We have decided to close the Gutter for the time being.
This is why we can't have nice things.
Needless to say, such a rumor is disturbing, but I haven't caught wind of it personally.
I can assure that no such talk came from the gutter itself, and that it seems to not be the reason given:
Deleted my post, because I was off-base on that. I looked into the matter, and the planned attack was from someone else entirely, not at all related to the gutter. Perhaps there's some reason that we don't know about for the decision - I'm sure it was made in view of the many past clashes with the gutter. But the timing is really unfortunate, and so is the message it sends about future interactions with the staff, our ability to communicate with users, and respond effectively to criticism.
Oh and you know that we may be suspended for talking here:
Why? Its a simple thing i found in the main rules
The staff of MTGSalvation holds the right to Suspend any member for a reasonable purpose at any time, regardless of Infractions accumulated.
But......what would it look like if a massive group of regular posters were banned for this? Im guessing that we may see another MTGnews incident if my vision comes to pass.
What kind of pictures do you have to submit to join the gutter?
A single picture that has a statement that you meet the age requirement. No funny hats, no debasing images, no hazing. Nothing but a photo of you holding a paper wherein you explain you are old enough to join (18+).
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The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
I remember when we didn't talk about the gutter, and when there wasn't a wiki page for it, and I can go on but I will not.
I have been around for a while so lets get this out quickly. I know why there is a gutter, I know why most people don't get in/vip club lolbutts, but you all have no idea about the gutter. It it not what most of you think. In reality, it isn't something you should care about. We are not a collective trying to bring the forum's staff down, or better put, we are not a gang. So, yes I would like answers as to why this happened.
But I do know why this is happening, as some people cannot handle constructive criticisms, especially when it pertains to the well being of this site and how its rule are maintained. I really miss some of the older admin staff. I understand it is a difficult and not so rewarding position, but if you can't handle it, then say so and bow out. Many staffers have, there is no shame in saying I am wrong, I cannot do this. Its a lot more professional than throwing your weight around.
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Don't mind my posts, they are probably just a product of gang violence
For the record, I am by no means AWOL, nor have I been.
If anyone has any specific questions they would like to ask about this situation, please feel free to do so. You will not be ignored. I will answer them all to the best of my ability. Furthermore, if anyone has any continued issues with staff memebers, feel free to post on my Helpdesk or send me a message via PM. PM may take me longer to respond to, but you will not be ignored.
I apologize for the abrupt and unceremonious approach the staff has taken with this change. We owe our users much more than that.
For the record, I am by no means AWOL, nor have I been.
If anyone has any specific questions they would like to ask about this situation, please feel free to do so. You will not be ignored. I will answer them all to the best of my ability. Furthermore, if anyone has any continued issues with staff memebers, feel free to post on my Helpdesk or send me a message via PM. PM may take me longer to respond to, but you will not be ignored.
I apologize for the abrupt and unceremonious approach the staff has taken with this change. We owe our users much more than that.
Hey Yukes. I respect you, we're clanmates and we've talked like friends (I consider you a friend, though we've never met.) Just making sure there's no hostility here, as you're an admin now.
Let us start with this: Could you give us a concise reason why the gutter was shut down?
(Aside: I still say you should post in [The Called] more often ^_^)
For the record, I am by no means AWOL, nor have I been.
If anyone has any specific questions they would like to ask about this situation, please feel free to do so. You will not be ignored. I will answer them all to the best of my ability. Furthermore, if anyone has any continued issues with staff memebers, feel free to post on my Helpdesk or send me a message via PM. PM may take me longer to respond to, but you will not be ignored.
I apologize for the abrupt and unceremonious approach the staff has taken with this change. We owe our users much more than that.
Ok, im sorry for going off topic.....but i thought for a moment Yahtzee had a MTGS profile and was offering sanity. Sort of wrong, but i will take you up on your offer to listen.
Oh and you know that we may be suspended for talking here:
Why? Its a simple thing i found in the main rules
But......what would it look like if a massive group of regular posters were banned for this? Im guessing that we may see another MTGnews incident if my vision comes to pass.
If the MTGS staff starts suspending the posters in this thread I will drop everything on this site and move on.
Just because staff doesn't like hearing that they're bad mods doesn't mean that they should shut down the thread where they can be openly criticized.
For the record, I am by no means AWOL, nor have I been.
If anyone has any specific questions they would like to ask about this situation, please feel free to do so. You will not be ignored. I will answer them all to the best of my ability. Furthermore, if anyone has any continued issues with staff memebers, feel free to post on my Helpdesk or send me a message via PM. PM may take me longer to respond to, but you will not be ignored.
I apologize for the abrupt and unceremonious approach the staff has taken with this change. We owe our users much more than that.
I sent you a PM about a moderator flaming me sometime ago and got no response.
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Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
scumbag
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Yes, I withdrew because I don't like revealing personal information on the internet. Just a rule I have. I was assured that it would be kept private but I just didn't feel comfortable with it.
And with your above post it seems that I made the right choice, because what I believed would be a private matter (my private messages in the application process) is now being openly discussed in this thread, I can only assume in an attempt to shame or discredit me. I can only imagine what would have happened with my supposedly private photo that I was supposed to send in.
There seems to be a misconception about what the Gutter really is. Before I was given access to it I had presumed it to be exactly what you think it to be: an orgy of violent, foaming-at-the-mouth insurgents with nothing else to do but mindlessly slam people. I couldn't have been more wrong.
If you sift through the heaping pile of garbage, you'll find some genuinely thought-provoking discourse. I honestly believe your hostility towards the Gutter and its members is only because you haven't seen it yourself. I don't post there (mainly because I'd probably end up looking like a fool) but you need to realize that closing off the only forum that approaches the policies and actions of this site with a critical mindset in a casual environment is actually a pretty big deal. It's not all rainbows and unicorns here at MTGS. Some of the Gutterites actually care enough about the site to warrant that notion.
If the MTGS staff starts suspending the posters in this thread I will drop everything on this site and move on.
Just because staff doesn't like hearing that they're bad mods doesn't mean that they should shut down the thread where they can be openly criticized.
I sent you a PM about a moderator flaming me sometime ago and got no response.
I'm leaving in a few months because I have commitments here, but if people start getting banned or suspended Soviet Secret Police Style I'll be done for good now.
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Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
scumbag
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Hey Yukes. I respect you, we're clanmates and we've talked like friends (I consider you a friend, though we've never met.) Just making sure there's no hostility here, as you're an admin now.
Let us start with this: Could you give us a concise reason why the gutter was shut down?
There have been several discussions over the past few months in the lounges about the Gutter and its continued existence. Many argued that it was a breeding ground for trolls and problem posters and only served to undermine the staff at every opportunity. I'm not saying that opinion is fact, I am merely trying to be as honest as possible here. Each time, the Gutter was considered to be given one more chance to prove that it can exist without stirring up drama on the main forums. Some feel that they failed to do so.
Recently, the discussion came up again due to the issues raised in Woapalonne's helpdesk. Namely, some held issue with the Gutter members continued pressing of the issues despite the promise of resolution. The administrators voted, Hannes was brought in, and the results are apparent.
Ok, im sorry for going off topic.....but i thought for a moment Yahtzee had a MTGS profile and was offering sanity. Sort of wrong, but i will take you up on your offer to listen.
No, I am merely a fan of his web series and had that avatar made for my own enjoyment.
If the MTGS staff starts suspending the posters in this thread I will drop everything on this site and move on.
Just because staff doesn't like hearing that they're bad mods doesn't mean that they should shut down the thread where they can be openly criticized.
I sent you a PM about a moderator flaming me sometime ago and got no response.
No one, unless they flagrantly break the forum rules, will be suspended as a result of this discussion. I will not be closing this thread, no matter how heated it may become. I fully recognize the situation the MTGS is in, and I am here in an attempt to resolve this issue. If anyone feels the need to vent their frustrations, I welcome them to do so via a PM to me. You will not be held accountable for its content. I'm not trying to patronize anyone with that statement, I mean it honestly.
I apologize to you, specifically, Yanni. I offer no excuses, but I want to make it clear that my inbox can easily get inundated with messages. Often, it can be well past the free time available to me to respond to them in full. Furthermore, please do not report a moderator with the report post function. I will be unable to glean those from the others quickly, but I take reports of my staff very seriously. They are of the utmost priority.
If any have sent me a report about a moderator and I have not responded, please post in my helpdesk and notify me that you have sent me a PM that I have not responded to. I will at least know to look for it among the other messages I receive.
I imagine I will behind the conversation flow as I try to respond to posts. Please be patient, I will get to each post in turn.
Namely, some held issue with the Gutter members continued pressing of the issues despite the promise of resolution. The administrators voted, Hannes was brought in, and the results are apparent.
With respect, the promise of resolution that was offered wasn't very reassuring. It took entirely too long to even get a clear "we're talking about this in private." The higher-level staff had an opportunity to get out in front of this situation well before it escalated to the point where it did, and that opportunity was missed.
Yukora: Just a word of advice. I think your response thus far has been appropriate. This action must be justified for broader reasons that a specific incident. It is fine that a recent incident was the impetus for this decision, but if you don't want this thread to get completely muddled with arguments about specific incidents I would say stick to your guns that this is an ongoing issue that represents a culmination of a broad consideration of the existence of the gutter in general.
Lets everyone keep that in mind before you start pointing out specific contextual facts about any recent incident.
There have been several discussions over the past few months in the lounges about the Gutter and its continued existence. Many argued that it was a breeding ground for trolls and problem posters and only served to undermine the staff at every opportunity. I'm not saying that opinion is fact, I am merely trying to be as honest as possible here. Each time, the Gutter was considered to be given one more chance to prove that it can exist without stirring up drama on the main forums. Some feel that they failed to do so.
Recently, the discussion came up again due to the issues raised in Woapalonne's helpdesk. Namely, some held issue with the Gutter members continued pressing of the issues despite the promise of resolution. The administrators voted, Hannes was brought in, and the results are apparent.
Thank you for explaining the situation, it is much appreciated. Also appreciated is your commitment to resolving this issue and addressing everyone's concerns.
Personally, I would argue that contrary to spawning trolls and problem posters, I think the Gutter produces exemplary posters more often than not. Look at how (N_S) handles any given situation! Outside of the gutter, nobody is flaming or being rude, they are stating issues either bluntly or eloquently. The worst trolls on this board are those who are disconnected with the community, not those who are intimately connected with it.
What is wrong with drama? Again this looks like its going back to the tumor/doctor analogy. Drama happens for a reason. It is far better to address the reason for the drama than those who point it out. This has happened time and time again. The staff focuses on those who are complaining rather than the actual issue. I am flabbergasted by how the staff continues to believe that the issues on Woapalaane's helpdesk were about the incidents and not how he reacts to people. In that capacity it seems like the administrative actions were made in ignorance. If that line of logic were continued, I should be banned for raising drama (and this is prolific, I am consistently seeing 30+ unique people reading this at a time) instead of this situation examined.
As presented, what this boils down to is the staff being reactionary rather than critical, which is utterly disappointing. The shutting down of the Gutter is entirely unjustifiable when given a little bit of critical thought.
Thank you. No...seriously... Thank you. This is how a mod/global should act when confronted with users issues, not getting defensive and throwing out red and yellow cards. I know Clock King said i was wrong in this, but I still believe most mods are good. Some just need to be reminded that they have powers that require the maturity to use them correctly. I still believe that 2 mods need to go beyond a shadow of a doubt. But in saying that, im just biding my time, collecting little things on them that one day I'll present to you or another admin.
For the sake of this thread, do you think you could dig out the relevant posts or point me to them?
Trust me, I know that mods can be cranky and unwilling to listen to reason.
Just the other day, I got an infraction for my "tone" in a post. The same day that a mod posted this:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=7526723&postcount=3
I would have gotten a spam infraction, and possibly a flaming infraction too if I had posted that.
I contacted an admin about it but they haven't responded yet.
The mod in question responded once to a PM that I sent about my infraction, and then wouldn't respond further. And I can't PM him again because last time he became unresponsive and I sent him another PM he threatened to infract me if I contacted him again.
He also has threatened to infract me for reporting the posts that could be infracted for the same reasons that I get infracted for. He doesn't like his double standard being pointed out.
The preceding isn't to make this thread about me, just to throw my general support behind the notion that mods can be stubborn. Just look at my thread in CI with harkius from a few months back.
I can assure that no such talk came from the gutter itself, and that it seems to not be the reason given:
Needless to say, such a rumor is disturbing, but I haven't caught wind of it personally.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyDeleted my post, because I was off-base on that. I looked into the matter, and the planned attack was from someone else entirely, not at all related to the gutter. Perhaps there's some reason that we don't know about for the decision - I'm sure it was made in view of the many past clashes with the gutter. But the timing is really unfortunate, and so is the message it sends about future interactions with the staff, our ability to communicate with users, and respond effectively to criticism.
MTGS - My Favorite forum to troll ALL DAY ERRY DAY
Looks like none now and this is disgusting way to deal with things.
Commenting on things without context is usually a bad idea, it can lead to inaccurate judgments.
Just a picture of yourself holding a sign saying your name, age, and that you want to join the gutter.
Why? Its a simple thing i found in the main rules
But......what would it look like if a massive group of regular posters were banned for this? Im guessing that we may see another MTGnews incident if my vision comes to pass.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyA single picture that has a statement that you meet the age requirement. No funny hats, no debasing images, no hazing. Nothing but a photo of you holding a paper wherein you explain you are old enough to join (18+).
The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
It was disgusting to close the forum for bad reasons. Happy now?
I have been around for a while so lets get this out quickly. I know why there is a gutter, I know why most people don't get in/vip club lolbutts, but you all have no idea about the gutter. It it not what most of you think. In reality, it isn't something you should care about. We are not a collective trying to bring the forum's staff down, or better put, we are not a gang. So, yes I would like answers as to why this happened.
But I do know why this is happening, as some people cannot handle constructive criticisms, especially when it pertains to the well being of this site and how its rule are maintained. I really miss some of the older admin staff. I understand it is a difficult and not so rewarding position, but if you can't handle it, then say so and bow out. Many staffers have, there is no shame in saying I am wrong, I cannot do this. Its a lot more professional than throwing your weight around.
If anyone has any specific questions they would like to ask about this situation, please feel free to do so. You will not be ignored. I will answer them all to the best of my ability. Furthermore, if anyone has any continued issues with staff memebers, feel free to post on my Helpdesk or send me a message via PM. PM may take me longer to respond to, but you will not be ignored.
I apologize for the abrupt and unceremonious approach the staff has taken with this change. We owe our users much more than that.
Hey Yukes. I respect you, we're clanmates and we've talked like friends (I consider you a friend, though we've never met.) Just making sure there's no hostility here, as you're an admin now.
Let us start with this: Could you give us a concise reason why the gutter was shut down?
(Aside: I still say you should post in [The Called] more often ^_^)
Ok, im sorry for going off topic.....but i thought for a moment Yahtzee had a MTGS profile and was offering sanity. Sort of wrong, but i will take you up on your offer to listen.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyIf the MTGS staff starts suspending the posters in this thread I will drop everything on this site and move on.
Just because staff doesn't like hearing that they're bad mods doesn't mean that they should shut down the thread where they can be openly criticized.
I sent you a PM about a moderator flaming me sometime ago and got no response.
scumbag
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There seems to be a misconception about what the Gutter really is. Before I was given access to it I had presumed it to be exactly what you think it to be: an orgy of violent, foaming-at-the-mouth insurgents with nothing else to do but mindlessly slam people. I couldn't have been more wrong.
If you sift through the heaping pile of garbage, you'll find some genuinely thought-provoking discourse. I honestly believe your hostility towards the Gutter and its members is only because you haven't seen it yourself. I don't post there (mainly because I'd probably end up looking like a fool) but you need to realize that closing off the only forum that approaches the policies and actions of this site with a critical mindset in a casual environment is actually a pretty big deal. It's not all rainbows and unicorns here at MTGS. Some of the Gutterites actually care enough about the site to warrant that notion.
Ruin's Trading Post
Aren't you doing that anyway?
I'm leaving in a few months because I have commitments here, but if people start getting banned or suspended Soviet Secret Police Style I'll be done for good now.
scumbag
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Recently, the discussion came up again due to the issues raised in Woapalonne's helpdesk. Namely, some held issue with the Gutter members continued pressing of the issues despite the promise of resolution. The administrators voted, Hannes was brought in, and the results are apparent.
No, I am merely a fan of his web series and had that avatar made for my own enjoyment.
No one, unless they flagrantly break the forum rules, will be suspended as a result of this discussion. I will not be closing this thread, no matter how heated it may become. I fully recognize the situation the MTGS is in, and I am here in an attempt to resolve this issue. If anyone feels the need to vent their frustrations, I welcome them to do so via a PM to me. You will not be held accountable for its content. I'm not trying to patronize anyone with that statement, I mean it honestly.
I apologize to you, specifically, Yanni. I offer no excuses, but I want to make it clear that my inbox can easily get inundated with messages. Often, it can be well past the free time available to me to respond to them in full. Furthermore, please do not report a moderator with the report post function. I will be unable to glean those from the others quickly, but I take reports of my staff very seriously. They are of the utmost priority.
If any have sent me a report about a moderator and I have not responded, please post in my helpdesk and notify me that you have sent me a PM that I have not responded to. I will at least know to look for it among the other messages I receive.
I imagine I will behind the conversation flow as I try to respond to posts. Please be patient, I will get to each post in turn.
With respect, the promise of resolution that was offered wasn't very reassuring. It took entirely too long to even get a clear "we're talking about this in private." The higher-level staff had an opportunity to get out in front of this situation well before it escalated to the point where it did, and that opportunity was missed.
Lets everyone keep that in mind before you start pointing out specific contextual facts about any recent incident.
Thank you for explaining the situation, it is much appreciated. Also appreciated is your commitment to resolving this issue and addressing everyone's concerns.
Personally, I would argue that contrary to spawning trolls and problem posters, I think the Gutter produces exemplary posters more often than not. Look at how (N_S) handles any given situation! Outside of the gutter, nobody is flaming or being rude, they are stating issues either bluntly or eloquently. The worst trolls on this board are those who are disconnected with the community, not those who are intimately connected with it.
What is wrong with drama? Again this looks like its going back to the tumor/doctor analogy. Drama happens for a reason. It is far better to address the reason for the drama than those who point it out. This has happened time and time again. The staff focuses on those who are complaining rather than the actual issue. I am flabbergasted by how the staff continues to believe that the issues on Woapalaane's helpdesk were about the incidents and not how he reacts to people. In that capacity it seems like the administrative actions were made in ignorance. If that line of logic were continued, I should be banned for raising drama (and this is prolific, I am consistently seeing 30+ unique people reading this at a time) instead of this situation examined.
As presented, what this boils down to is the staff being reactionary rather than critical, which is utterly disappointing. The shutting down of the Gutter is entirely unjustifiable when given a little bit of critical thought.
Thank you. No...seriously... Thank you. This is how a mod/global should act when confronted with users issues, not getting defensive and throwing out red and yellow cards. I know Clock King said i was wrong in this, but I still believe most mods are good. Some just need to be reminded that they have powers that require the maturity to use them correctly. I still believe that 2 mods need to go beyond a shadow of a doubt. But in saying that, im just biding my time, collecting little things on them that one day I'll present to you or another admin.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething Spicy