I don't understand this thread. Why are the users of this forum entitled to the gutter? If the owner wants a part of his free to use website removed, so be it.
I don't think anyone in this thread is actually arguing being "entitled" to anything. If you don't understand the many facets of this issue and this thread (and you are a relatively newere user so I wouldn't expect you to), I suggest you do a little research and perhaps follow up on some of the things in this thread which have been explained and you aren't really following.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Official Moderator of The [Gutter]
Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
I don't understand this thread. Why are the users of this forum entitled to the gutter? If the owner wants a part of his free to use website removed, so be it.
This isn't about anybody being entitled to have anything. This is about a poor administrative decision that resulted in the removal of an element of these boards that were attempting to make better the site.
I would personally like a response to the bolden. By this I mean, I think you should rephrase the bolded as "Considering the level with which the staff mishandled this situation, tacitly supported double standards, and overall acted in an unwarranted and totalitarian manner without any sort of actual forethought or professinalism, I do not see how we can revers our position because we already pretty much destroyed it beyond belief. None of this had anything to do with the actual gutter."
Also I think you declaration that this was a decision from the sites owner is bunk. I'm not sure who it was but someone said earlier that Hannes usually works on second hand information. What is your response to accusations that this is just a case of biased opinions from Annorax and more likely extremeicon (who was coming under scrutiny for his alleged poor moderation) being all that was echoed in Hannes ear?
I meant what I said. For the situation to get to the point that the staff was prepared to and proceeded to remove the Gutter, I do not feel that there will be a reversal. This type of move is not something that is taken lightly by the administrators, and it is not one I I can fathom being reversed once it has been made.
I cannot speak for Annorax, extremeicon, or even myself as far as the individual contributions to the lounge discussion goes. All I can do is speak as a member of the administrative team as a whole when I say that this is the decision that has been reached and it is not one I expect to be reversed. As far as Hannes goes, he was brought it and he made his stance apparent. Regardless of how anyone perceives his involvement in the forums, he is the ultimate authority on these boards and his decisions are ones the administrative team is required to accept.
I meant what I said. For the situation to get to the point that the staff was prepared to and proceeded to remove the Gutter, I do not feel that there will be a reversal. This type of move is not something that is taken lightly by the administrators, and it is not one I I can fathom being reversed once it has been made.
I cannot speak for Annorax, extremeicon, or even myself as far as the individual contributions to the lounge discussion goes. All I can do is speak as a member of the administrative team as a whole when I say that this is the decision that has been reached and it is not one I expect to be reversed. As far as Hannes goes, he was brought it and he made his stance apparent. Regardless of how anyone perceives his involvement in the forums, he is the ultimate authority on these boards and his decisions are ones the administrative team is required to accept.
Why are we not aloud to see this?
This is happening behind closed doors and it's allowing the staff to not be held accountable for their actions.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
Removing the gutter does not change anything. It does not change the issues brought up. All gutter members are here and nobody has been banned because of this. This was just done as "punishment".
This is why we cannot have nice things.
Yes, voicing concerns towards moderation and asking for things promised is outrageous behavior. Also, doing it in the proper forums is horrible. Bad gutter, no soup for you. You do not play nice so you do not get nice things.
This is just amazing logic. Great message to the forum. When you have a problem, going through proper channels for resolution is not only useless but treachery.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Don't mind my posts, they are probably just a product of gang violence
Removing the gutter does not change anything. It does not change the issues brought up. All gutter members are here and nobody has been banned because of this. This was just done as "punishment".
This is why we cannot have nice things.
Yes, voicing concerns towards moderation and asking for things promised is outrageous behavior. Also, doing it in the proper forums is horrible. Bad gutter, no soup for you. You do not play nice so you do not get nice things.
This is just amazing logic. Great message to the forum. When you have a problem, going through proper channels for resolution is not only useless but treachery.
If the gutter is too be closed, why can we not create a forum where the members of MTGS can be civil and voice complaints about moderators?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
Oh yeah, just so this is a matter of public record since many of you aren't privy to this knowledge:
The moderators of the gutter were promised on at least 3 seperate occasions a sub forum where they could raise issues to the staff and not have to make any deal of it in public. This was an initiative started by the staff, and was something generally agreed upon to be a great idea all around. That was never given to us. This is one of a multitude of lies that Annorax (MTGS lead admin), has told right to the gutters face. While I'm not going to get into this large amound of lies as it would only serve to paint me as looking for a smear campaign, I think it's worth noting that this supposed "problem" the staff is now inventing to give themselves some sort of leg to stand on had a solution, agreed upon by the staff, that they refused to implement.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Official Moderator of The [Gutter]
Think the MtgStaff is just swell? Join today! You too can be involved in an 8 year grudge and delete nearly 9000 of kpaca's posts!
Isn't that just this particular subforum's purpose, though?
I also don't understand why being uncensored (essentially the only novel thing about The Gutter, other than being super-secret) is so necessary to voice your complaints. I've successfully discussed issues with moderators in the past, and up until now I didn't even know The Gutter still existed!
Does anyone have an argument for why The Gutter is necessary?
Before I get too involved in this, let me say one thing. I appreciate this site. I know many people here give their free time and get little credit for the work they put into the site, and I thank them. I always send people here for info, spoilers, etc. There is no other site I would recommend. Many staffers have been here since new and such and are well set in the community. But, that doesn't mean they are infallible.
If your response to the issues is to shut the gutter down you can do that and it is fine. Though, we ask for some level of professionalism when doing so, as it is quite an extreme action. Saying this is the straw or whatever metaphor you wish to use is just a cop out. We always do this, it isn't anything new. And it doesn't make it go away. What happens now, suspensions and bans? Again, the message now sent out to the whole forum does not look good.
Yes, there will always be complainers towards the moderation, and while some are just angry monkeys with poo in their eye, others are genuine. Now you are suggesting that genuine concerns brought through proper channels are pointless. That is why I am here, I see this site, a site I enjoy, is saying that whatever issues I have with staff cannot be dealt with at all.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Don't mind my posts, they are probably just a product of gang violence
Isn't that just this particular subforum's purpose, though?
The issue is that users are told to contact the moderator if they have an issue with that moderator. If the moderator does not respond, they need to contact an Admin. The admin, as other users have said, doesn't do anything about it in the long run.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
Why are we not aloud to see this?
This is happening behind closed doors and it's allowing the staff to not be held accountable for their actions.
It is site policy for the discussion regarding the site to be kept private so that the staff can feel free to discuss issues in their entirety without recourse from the users. We are doing our bets to keep things as transparent as possible without saying "person X said Y."
I am going to try to add perspective on this. I am more of a lurker than a poster on this forum. I come here to read and be entertained, and occasionally I add my own personal commentary to certain threads.
I am a member of the Gutter, and I lurk there as well. The only post I made was during the MHF/KCW incident of 2011, and that was mostly to show (in a joking manner) support for the Gutter, because I had just joined, and I read through the threads on that subforum and got a clear picture of what the Gutter was about.
The Gutter is simply a place where like minded individuals can post together about issues that concern them. The Gutter is a place where there is no language filter, and members are invited to truly speak their mind on issues. The Gutter is a place where terrible posts are discussed and laughed about.
What the Gutter is not is a place where public flame wars and attacks are planned out. If you see multiple Gutter members pointing out poor Moderator decisions, it's simply because, as has been said by many others in this thread, the Gutter contains several like minded people and those people care because they truly have a love of MTGS.
Yukora, I need to know, since Admins have access to the Gutter, were posts that were made in TBGTE taken into account with the closing of the subforum? Because I truly think if that thread was looked at, it would have painted a different light on the subject.
I know that extremeicon and Annorax have issues with the Gutter, which is why this feels so sour. I truly feel that if all the facts were looked at when you all made this decision, you wouldn't have made the decision that you did. My true feelings are with others that at least two of the three voting entities wanted to see the Gutter go, and so when an opportunity to close it came about, away the Gutter went.
Some of you are making blanket statements about how good it is to see the Gutter go away, but none of you were ever a part of that community, not even as a lurker as I was, and you have no way to know what it was about. I truly feel this is a sad day for MTGS, because it shows that when the upper management doesn't like something, it is removed from the forum, despite the facts.
Long Live the Gutter!
EDIT: I am going to break Gutter Rule #3 (might be 4, not sure) and edit this post, and say that really, if you think about it, the Gutter is pretty similar to a clan that you need to be 18 and not be annoying in order to be in. So for those of you that say the Gutter isn't necessary, I counter that you are saying that Clans aren't necessary.
I also don't understand why being uncensored (essentially the only novel thing about The Gutter, other than being super-secret) is so necessary to voice your complaints. I've successfully discussed issues with moderators in the past, and up until now I didn't even know The Gutter still existed!
Does anyone have an argument for why The Gutter is necessary?
Yes, I have, and no you will not hear it, because I have stated it a plethora of times. Go search CI for many gutter related debates such as this. Its fun stuff.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Don't mind my posts, they are probably just a product of gang violence
It is site policy for the discussion regarding the site to be kept private so that the staff can feel free to discuss issues in their entirety without recourse from the users. We are doing our bets to keep things as transparent as possible without saying "person X said Y."
If the staff of this site get to talk behind closed doors with other staff, then come up with some dodgy statement as to why Moderator X isn't punished for how bad of a mod they are, I've lost all faith in the staff of this site.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
The issue is that users are told to contact the moderator if they have an issue with that moderator. If the moderator does not respond, they need to contact an Admin. The admin, as other users have said, doesn't do anything about it in the long run.
If the longstanding system to appeal an action or otherwise address and administrative action fails (as you suggest), logically the next step is to create a thread here to bring some attention to the fact that your concerns have not been addressed by the mod in question nor the admins. I don't disagree with you that failing private discourse, civil discussion in public is the next step. I just don't see the relevance here.
If the longstanding system to appeal an action or otherwise address and administrative action fails (as you suggest), logically the next step is to create a thread here to bring some attention to the fact that your concerns have not been addressed by the mod in question nor the admins. I don't disagree with you that failing private discourse, civil discussion in public is the next step. I just don't see the relevance here.
TheGutter provided a safe place for the discussion of moderator policies that would be brought to staff's attention. The closing of this symbolizes the staff giving the middle finger to the users when it comes to issues with moderators.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
Yukora, I appreciate the calm and non-confrontational tone you are coming with here in order to somehow represent the upper staff on this (I would say) questionable decision of the Forum owner and others. Nevertheless, after reading and rereading your posts, I cannot find out anything else but blanket statements that really don't help shedding any light on the issue.
I am in a difficult spot with this discussion. I am not speaking as myself in this, but as a representative of the administrative team. There are times when I try to refrain from putting too much of my personal opinion into a discussion and it comes off a being vague. I apologize for that.
Namely:
More than once, the issues were presented to the staff in a calm and reasoned way. When an admin (extremeicon) asked for the discussion to continue in his helpdesk, everyone complied. As far as I'm concerned, my queries were very simple and repeatedly posted:
Again, all that I ever asked (and I an just speaking for myself, others asked the same), was "next time, try to be more polite when dealing with the queries of the userbase, be they legitimate or not"
At any point, either Woapalanne or extremeicon could have chosen to simply put a blanket statement "Thank you for bringing these issues to our attention, we promise to take these into account in the future", which would have closed the issue. However this never happened. We got this instead:
Do you want an example of a perfectly legitimate and good idea that was proposed, and bluntly dismissed by the staff? Look at this post from epeeguy (A non-gutterite) which was proposing an innovative solution for this problem. The answer?
In the end what do you expect to gain from this? OK, the gutter is gone. Do you think next time Woapalane or someone else acts in an unprofessional way, myself and others are going to think "Oh man, the gutter is gone, I'll lay low and won't post". Well no. I'm very sorry, but I plead to continue complaining about any lack of professionalism from the staff whenever I see it.
Trying to shut down dissenting voices isn't going to magically make the staff better at managing this site. when a tree falls, etc...
I recognize the fact that there are more problems at play than just the Gutter's state of existence. The Staff has internal issues, especially when it comes to communication, that must be corrected. Furthermore, we need to find a way of satisfying that a problem is addressed while respecting the privacy of the staff that received a complaint.
If the longstanding system to appeal an action or otherwise address and administrative action fails (as you suggest), logically the next step is to create a thread here to bring some attention to the fact that your concerns have not been addressed by the mod in question nor the admins. I don't disagree with you that failing private discourse, civil discussion in public is the next step. I just don't see the relevance here.
If I read you right, your thought when you asked the initial question translates to, "Why reinvent the wheel?" right? In the interest of clarity.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Clan Is Dead.... Long Live The Izzet! Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
TheGutter provided a safe place for the discussion of moderator policies that would be brought to staff's attention. The closing of this symbolizes the staff giving the middle finger to the users when it comes to issues with moderators.
Well that or the staff felt the Gutter had outlived it's nine lives and that while it could be argued that it served a good purpose here, the benefits were outweighed by the troubling issues. And given that SYM/CI serves the exact purpose you're espousing of The Gutter, there's really only need of one such forum.
The act may come across as the staff giving members the finger, but I really don't see how that's logically in their best interests.
Well that or the staff felt the Gutter had outlived it's nine lives and that while it could be argued that it served a good purpose here, the benefits were outweighed by the troubling issues. And given that SYM/CI serves the exact purpose you're espousing of The Gutter, there's really only need of one such forum.
The act may come across as the staff giving members the finger, but I really don't see how that's logically in their best interests.
What issues with The Gutter? The fact that users could speak their opinions of moderators in a public manner? The fact that it was uncensored?
If CI is truly how we're solving issues with moderators we need a "Public Moderator Complaints Thread" where users can speak their mind about moderators.
This obviously won't help because the administrators won't do anything about the complaints anyway.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
Do you have an argument to why Clans, WCT, Debate, or Mafia subforums are necessary? This is afterall a site about a childrens collective card game.
It's a children's card game? Odd considering that most of the people I've talked to are actually adults. Most of the people I've seen in tournaments are...adults. While true it was a children's card game, it has long since grown past that.
TheGutter provided a safe place for the discussion of moderator policies that would be brought to staff's attention. The closing of this symbolizes the staff giving the middle finger to the users when it comes to issues with moderators.
What issues with The Gutter? The fact that users could speak their opinions of moderators in a public manner? The fact that it was uncensored?
If CI is truly how we're solving issues with moderators we need a "Public Moderator Complaints Thread" where users can speak their mind about moderators.
This obviously won't help because the administrators won't do anything about the complaints anyway.
1. It's NOT public when it's a PRIVATE group/forum area.
2. While the 'allowed' users of that forum were able to vent, again, in private and away from the 'general' forum areas, everyone else had/has to do it in public. In such context, wouldn't ALL members of this forum have the same expressed freedom as the Gutter members did then?
3. There is a "Public Moderator Complaints Thread". They're known as Helpdesks.
4. The administrators have a lot more responsibility than Moderators (at least from what I can tell), so they may not always be able to respond in a timely manner. Even if an administrator did intervene, what outcome could come of it?
Overall, people are going to complain either way. It's going to happen regardless. The fact is, some of the people that you may or may not see eye-to-eye with, are going to be in moderating positions.
The admins apparently had reason to remove the gutter private sub-forum. What that is, I do not know nor do I question or care (save for the fact of the consistent complaints from the people that were members of said sub-forum). The general fact is now that you have to talk in a civil manner, like the rest of us. (Rescinded because most of said conversation has been civil).
tl;dr: The card game is not ultimately a 'children's game' anymore. You can't please everyone. The Gutter was a private area, not a public one. The administrators are busy people with real lives.
1. It's NOT public when it's a PRIVATE group/forum area.
2. While the 'allowed' users of that forum were able to vent, again, in private and away from the 'general' forum areas, everyone else had/has to do it in public. In such context, wouldn't ALL members of this forum have the same expressed freedom as the Gutter members did then?
lol, Most of the moderators can see it and those who cannot will likely be told when they're being complained about by other moderators.
So yeah, it's public.
3. There is a "Public Moderator Complaints Thread". They're known as Helpdesks.
Bull. The complaints are not listened to. (See NS, Kpaca v. Ext) The admin they contacted showed no signs of doing anything, and after a few days the Admin staff decided to close the "root of the problem"
4. The administrators have a lot more responsibility than Moderators (at least from what I can tell), so they may not always be able to respond in a timely manner. Even if an administrator did intervene, what outcome could come of it?
I don't care if it takes them a couple days to get back to me. I care when I have a legit concern and I get the PM back "it's being discussed in the modlongue."
Overall, people are going to complain either way. It's going to happen regardless. The fact is, some of the people that you may or may not see eye-to-eye with, are going to be in moderating positions.
This part just boggles my mind. Just because moderators and I do not always see eye to eye does not mean they can be rude to the users of MTGS simply because "they're special"
The admins apparently had reason to remove the gutter private sub-forum. What that is, I do not know nor do I question or care (save for the fact of the consistent complaints from the people that were members of said sub-forum). The general fact is now that you have to talk in a civil manner, like the rest of us.
1. It was uncensored.
2. The entire purpose was to complain about mods publicly
tl;dr: The card game is not ultimately a 'children's game' anymore. You can't please everyone. The Gutter was a private area, not a public one. The administrators are busy people with real lives.
TL;DR : MTG is a children's card game. The removal of the Gutter is the worst thing that the staff has done whilst I've been a member of this site and there is no way the administrators are too busy to deal with complaints about bad moderators.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I don't think anyone in this thread is actually arguing being "entitled" to anything. If you don't understand the many facets of this issue and this thread (and you are a relatively newere user so I wouldn't expect you to), I suggest you do a little research and perhaps follow up on some of the things in this thread which have been explained and you aren't really following.
This isn't about anybody being entitled to have anything. This is about a poor administrative decision that resulted in the removal of an element of these boards that were attempting to make better the site.
I meant what I said. For the situation to get to the point that the staff was prepared to and proceeded to remove the Gutter, I do not feel that there will be a reversal. This type of move is not something that is taken lightly by the administrators, and it is not one I I can fathom being reversed once it has been made.
I cannot speak for Annorax, extremeicon, or even myself as far as the individual contributions to the lounge discussion goes. All I can do is speak as a member of the administrative team as a whole when I say that this is the decision that has been reached and it is not one I expect to be reversed. As far as Hannes goes, he was brought it and he made his stance apparent. Regardless of how anyone perceives his involvement in the forums, he is the ultimate authority on these boards and his decisions are ones the administrative team is required to accept.
Why are we not aloud to see this?
This is happening behind closed doors and it's allowing the staff to not be held accountable for their actions.
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
This is why we cannot have nice things.
Yes, voicing concerns towards moderation and asking for things promised is outrageous behavior. Also, doing it in the proper forums is horrible. Bad gutter, no soup for you. You do not play nice so you do not get nice things.
This is just amazing logic. Great message to the forum. When you have a problem, going through proper channels for resolution is not only useless but treachery.
If the gutter is too be closed, why can we not create a forum where the members of MTGS can be civil and voice complaints about moderators?
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
The moderators of the gutter were promised on at least 3 seperate occasions a sub forum where they could raise issues to the staff and not have to make any deal of it in public. This was an initiative started by the staff, and was something generally agreed upon to be a great idea all around. That was never given to us. This is one of a multitude of lies that Annorax (MTGS lead admin), has told right to the gutters face. While I'm not going to get into this large amound of lies as it would only serve to paint me as looking for a smear campaign, I think it's worth noting that this supposed "problem" the staff is now inventing to give themselves some sort of leg to stand on had a solution, agreed upon by the staff, that they refused to implement.
Isn't that just this particular subforum's purpose, though?
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
I also don't understand why being uncensored (essentially the only novel thing about The Gutter, other than being super-secret) is so necessary to voice your complaints. I've successfully discussed issues with moderators in the past, and up until now I didn't even know The Gutter still existed!
Does anyone have an argument for why The Gutter is necessary?
If your response to the issues is to shut the gutter down you can do that and it is fine. Though, we ask for some level of professionalism when doing so, as it is quite an extreme action. Saying this is the straw or whatever metaphor you wish to use is just a cop out. We always do this, it isn't anything new. And it doesn't make it go away. What happens now, suspensions and bans? Again, the message now sent out to the whole forum does not look good.
Yes, there will always be complainers towards the moderation, and while some are just angry monkeys with poo in their eye, others are genuine. Now you are suggesting that genuine concerns brought through proper channels are pointless. That is why I am here, I see this site, a site I enjoy, is saying that whatever issues I have with staff cannot be dealt with at all.
The issue is that users are told to contact the moderator if they have an issue with that moderator. If the moderator does not respond, they need to contact an Admin. The admin, as other users have said, doesn't do anything about it in the long run.
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
It is site policy for the discussion regarding the site to be kept private so that the staff can feel free to discuss issues in their entirety without recourse from the users. We are doing our bets to keep things as transparent as possible without saying "person X said Y."
I am a member of the Gutter, and I lurk there as well. The only post I made was during the MHF/KCW incident of 2011, and that was mostly to show (in a joking manner) support for the Gutter, because I had just joined, and I read through the threads on that subforum and got a clear picture of what the Gutter was about.
The Gutter is simply a place where like minded individuals can post together about issues that concern them. The Gutter is a place where there is no language filter, and members are invited to truly speak their mind on issues. The Gutter is a place where terrible posts are discussed and laughed about.
What the Gutter is not is a place where public flame wars and attacks are planned out. If you see multiple Gutter members pointing out poor Moderator decisions, it's simply because, as has been said by many others in this thread, the Gutter contains several like minded people and those people care because they truly have a love of MTGS.
Yukora, I need to know, since Admins have access to the Gutter, were posts that were made in TBGTE taken into account with the closing of the subforum? Because I truly think if that thread was looked at, it would have painted a different light on the subject.
I know that extremeicon and Annorax have issues with the Gutter, which is why this feels so sour. I truly feel that if all the facts were looked at when you all made this decision, you wouldn't have made the decision that you did. My true feelings are with others that at least two of the three voting entities wanted to see the Gutter go, and so when an opportunity to close it came about, away the Gutter went.
Some of you are making blanket statements about how good it is to see the Gutter go away, but none of you were ever a part of that community, not even as a lurker as I was, and you have no way to know what it was about. I truly feel this is a sad day for MTGS, because it shows that when the upper management doesn't like something, it is removed from the forum, despite the facts.
Long Live the Gutter!
EDIT: I am going to break Gutter Rule #3 (might be 4, not sure) and edit this post, and say that really, if you think about it, the Gutter is pretty similar to a clan that you need to be 18 and not be annoying in order to be in. So for those of you that say the Gutter isn't necessary, I counter that you are saying that Clans aren't necessary.
Yes, I have, and no you will not hear it, because I have stated it a plethora of times. Go search CI for many gutter related debates such as this. Its fun stuff.
If the staff of this site get to talk behind closed doors with other staff, then come up with some dodgy statement as to why Moderator X isn't punished for how bad of a mod they are, I've lost all faith in the staff of this site.
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
If the longstanding system to appeal an action or otherwise address and administrative action fails (as you suggest), logically the next step is to create a thread here to bring some attention to the fact that your concerns have not been addressed by the mod in question nor the admins. I don't disagree with you that failing private discourse, civil discussion in public is the next step. I just don't see the relevance here.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
I'm going to take a guess and say that the relevance is the gutterites perceive this action as punishment for civil discussion in public.
TheGutter provided a safe place for the discussion of moderator policies that would be brought to staff's attention. The closing of this symbolizes the staff giving the middle finger to the users when it comes to issues with moderators.
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
I am in a difficult spot with this discussion. I am not speaking as myself in this, but as a representative of the administrative team. There are times when I try to refrain from putting too much of my personal opinion into a discussion and it comes off a being vague. I apologize for that.
I recognize the fact that there are more problems at play than just the Gutter's state of existence. The Staff has internal issues, especially when it comes to communication, that must be corrected. Furthermore, we need to find a way of satisfying that a problem is addressed while respecting the privacy of the staff that received a complaint.
Johnny, born and raised. Always lookin' for the Next Level Combo. Thanks to Bornover of FHLS for the banner!
Mafia Results, Links, and Stats
Well that or the staff felt the Gutter had outlived it's nine lives and that while it could be argued that it served a good purpose here, the benefits were outweighed by the troubling issues. And given that SYM/CI serves the exact purpose you're espousing of The Gutter, there's really only need of one such forum.
The act may come across as the staff giving members the finger, but I really don't see how that's logically in their best interests.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
What issues with The Gutter? The fact that users could speak their opinions of moderators in a public manner? The fact that it was uncensored?
If CI is truly how we're solving issues with moderators we need a "Public Moderator Complaints Thread" where users can speak their mind about moderators.
This obviously won't help because the administrators won't do anything about the complaints anyway.
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
It's a children's card game? Odd considering that most of the people I've talked to are actually adults. Most of the people I've seen in tournaments are...adults. While true it was a children's card game, it has long since grown past that.
1. It's NOT public when it's a PRIVATE group/forum area.
2. While the 'allowed' users of that forum were able to vent, again, in private and away from the 'general' forum areas, everyone else had/has to do it in public. In such context, wouldn't ALL members of this forum have the same expressed freedom as the Gutter members did then?
3. There is a "Public Moderator Complaints Thread". They're known as Helpdesks.
4. The administrators have a lot more responsibility than Moderators (at least from what I can tell), so they may not always be able to respond in a timely manner. Even if an administrator did intervene, what outcome could come of it?
Overall, people are going to complain either way. It's going to happen regardless. The fact is, some of the people that you may or may not see eye-to-eye with, are going to be in moderating positions.
The admins apparently had reason to remove the gutter private sub-forum. What that is, I do not know nor do I question or care (save for the fact of the consistent complaints from the people that were members of said sub-forum).
The general fact is now that you have to talk in a civil manner, like the rest of us.(Rescinded because most of said conversation has been civil).tl;dr: The card game is not ultimately a 'children's game' anymore. You can't please everyone. The Gutter was a private area, not a public one. The administrators are busy people with real lives.
lol, Most of the moderators can see it and those who cannot will likely be told when they're being complained about by other moderators.
So yeah, it's public.
Bull. The complaints are not listened to. (See NS, Kpaca v. Ext) The admin they contacted showed no signs of doing anything, and after a few days the Admin staff decided to close the "root of the problem"
I don't care if it takes them a couple days to get back to me. I care when I have a legit concern and I get the PM back "it's being discussed in the modlongue."
This part just boggles my mind. Just because moderators and I do not always see eye to eye does not mean they can be rude to the users of MTGS simply because "they're special"
1. It was uncensored.
2. The entire purpose was to complain about mods publicly
TL;DR : MTG is a children's card game. The removal of the Gutter is the worst thing that the staff has done whilst I've been a member of this site and there is no way the administrators are too busy to deal with complaints about bad moderators.
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com