-The first thing that really drives me nuts is how "active" the casual crowd is. Its the opposite of casual really. We so so many rants and jibes at "netdeckers", people arguing against what real judges with 1000+ post histories over "how things should work" in the rules forum and the like. I'm not sure there is really a solution to this but its absurd. I like to play casually also, I like to make goofy decks sometimes but when someone wants to play with their "netdeck" or more appropriately a competitive deck I put my fun deck aside and play with something competitive or I expect the matchup will not be in my favor and not complain.
- Going with the first I have seen 10+ posts and even one huge rant thread about rage over the new mythic werewolf not being a legendary. Legendary is nearly strictly worse then playing the same card without that typing. It leads to potential clogged hands, removal by phantasmal image etc. I was about to have my mind explode when I realized it was because they couldn't use it as their EDH general. I really think that while the casual crowd should be allowed to post whatever this is just to far and embarrassing. IS it really that hard to just house rule you can use him jeez.
-People having meltdowns in response to realistic deck critiques. Its not like its an insult to the creator to say a suggested change or a potential weakness in a deck.
- Very very bad and unoptimized decks being represented as good. Poor card choices being defended with poor logic. I mean I actually read a thread where someone had spent many pages arguing that the 5/5 firebreathing dragon is better then inferno titan in standard.
- Disagreeing with something instantly dismissed as "trolling" posting history or time spent playing a deck used to try and validate poor deck choices.
- Poor card evaluations being backed up by anecdotal evidence and "feelings" instead of math. RE: desperate ravings
- Posts such as "I refuse to play Blue/titans/X because their powerlevel is to high/they are overplayed/whatever" when posting a deck and then asking for advice on it is ridiculous.
I could go on but ill stop myself and say that these issues have really hurt the salvation forums in the eyes of many of the grinders that could really contribute alot to the forum. I don't know if there is any easy fix and maybe everyone should take a second and step back and start using more logic, and not misrepresent choices. IF its made for casual play just say it, IF a card choice was made with budget options in mind also say it, dont try to defend unoptimized decks just say its a pile. And most importantly take a step back and calm down before raging about how a card will effect "casual" magic.
You have no idea how tempted I am to respond with just "Cool story, dudebro."
Anyway... I ask why it matters if the site has a "bad rep" among "pros." Is that so important? I personally don't come here for anything related to "professional" commentary or discussion; there are plenty of other places available for that. We don't need to make MTGS into another one of them. You don't care for the community here, that's fine. Others like it and would hate to see it change in the way you've described. I say let this site and its community remain what it is and those who are dissatisfied can try to make a difference in their own conduct or simply move on to another community that better meets their needs and expectations. We certainly don't need large-scale campaigning to mold everything to the desires of one particular perspective.
Basically: We don't need to try to show off for the cool kids. Take the site with its good and its flaws, or leave it be. No one forces you or anyone else to stay or leave.
You have no idea how tempted I am to respond with just "Cool story, dudebro."
Because there is a huge potential for "crowd-sourcing" deck building and tweaking, lots of valuable feedback to be had about changes and the meta, but more and more it seems to be drowned out by "white-noise" casual players. I literally had someone argue 61 cards was ok when discussing optimizing puresteel and I mouth-vomited a bit.
I guess I feel like there should be a separate competitive section where this could take place without the nonsense and "feelings" where optimizing lists would be the one and only concern. Where people wouldnt meltdown when they posted awful lists, and instead you could just straight up say that deck is bad and here is why...
And I say go to other sites that already have a culture that brings you what you're looking for. If there are people here who aren't concerned with optimization, then they simply aren't, so what? They're content without it, with arguing over things that you think are ridiculous. There are plenty of people who would be absolutely bored to tears if there was nothing going on but emotionless optimization.
If this particular community isn't to your liking, find one that fits your particular needs better. That makes much more sense than calling to overhaul this community to suit you.
-The first thing that really drives me nuts is how "active" the casual crowd is. Its the opposite of casual really... .Going with the first I have seen 10+ posts and even one huge rant thread about rage over the new mythic werewolf not being a legendary.
You're talking about the Rumor Mill. People build up unrealistic expectations of card they have yet to see, and when they see the actual card their response is something along the lines of "this isn't how I imagined it to be and I'm going to act like Wizards have taken soemthing away from me :mad::mad::mad:"
So what? Why are YOU expecting calm, reasoned commentary, aimed ONLY at a card's standard constructed value, in this area of the forums? Unrealistic expectations indeed.
- Very very bad and unoptimized decks being represented as good. Poor card choices being defended with poor logic.
- Disagreeing with something instantly dismissed as "trolling" posting history or time spent playing a deck used to try and validate poor deck choices.
- Poor card evaluations being backed up by anecdotal evidence and "feelings" instead of math. RE: desperate ravings
- Posts such as "I refuse to play Blue/titans/X because their powerlevel is to high/they are overplayed/whatever" when posting a deck and then asking for advice on it is ridiculous.
Pro tip for you, since obviously you feel you identify as one: People play this game for all sorts of reasons.
Those reasons may not match your reasons, but they are no less valid for that. If discussion in a thread indicates that a deck has been created by someone who has a different use in mind than you - go to another thread. There's plenty.
I also note you fail to provide any evidence to back up any of those assertions. I guess we should just ignore that bit?
I could go on but ill stop myself and say that these issues have really hurt the salvation forums in the eyes of many of the grinders that could really contribute alot to the forum. And most importantly take a step back and calm down before raging about how a card will effect "casual" magic.
Couple of points:
1. This site was set up to discuss Magic: The Gathering. There are many discussions to be had, and consequently many sections to this site.
2. This site was not set up for the sole benefit of "grinders" whoever they may be. Neither does it need their approval, whatever that may be worth.
3. If you don't like the discussions here, then start some discussions that you do like. I've quoted you enough so I'll quote someone else: "Be the change you want to see in the world". For this site that amounts to creating the kinds of discussion threads you want to read.
4. Now really. Your tone and writing suggest you hold yourself as being somewhat above this site. The site doesn't meet your expectations and you would like it to. You don't want to change your own attitudes, but you'd like everyone else to change for your convenience. Do you really think you are so different from the posters you criticize?
I would like to know what 'pros' he's talking about. I don't see why people come here and can't participate in decent discussions and not say 'well this site has a bad rep for "pros"' without citing which 'pros' there are that are stating such?
-The first thing that really drives me nuts is how "active" the casual crowd is. Its the opposite of casual really. We so so many rants and jibes at "netdeckers", people arguing against what real judges with 1000+ post histories over "how things should work" in the rules forum and the like. I'm not sure there is really a solution to this but its absurd. I like to play casually also, I like to make goofy decks sometimes but when someone wants to play with their "netdeck" or more appropriately a competitive deck I put my fun deck aside and play with something competitive or I expect the matchup will not be in my favor and not complain.
- Going with the first I have seen 10+ posts and even one huge rant thread about rage over the new mythic werewolf not being a legendary. Legendary is nearly strictly worse then playing the same card without that typing. It leads to potential clogged hands, removal by phantasmal image etc. I was about to have my mind explode when I realized it was because they couldn't use it as their EDH general. I really think that while the casual crowd should be allowed to post whatever this is just to far and embarrassing. IS it really that hard to just house rule you can use him jeez.
Well, the first paragraph doesn't say much (Casual vs. competitive)
The second is a complaint about EDH players (wrong forum). Also, you don't understand the history of that conversation obviously. There were rumors of a "cycle-like" set of mythics that hit Vampire, Zombie, and Werewolf... they're disappointed, understandably.
-People having meltdowns in response to realistic deck critiques. Its not like its an insult to the creator to say a suggested change or a potential weakness in a deck.
People don't like being criticized. Who knew?
- Very very bad and unoptimized decks being represented as good. Poor card choices being defended with poor logic. I mean I actually read a thread where someone had spent many pages arguing that the 5/5 firebreathing dragon is better then inferno titan in standard.
Not everyone is as gifted intellectually as yourself. Accept this. Move on.
- Disagreeing with something instantly dismissed as "trolling" posting history or time spent playing a deck used to try and validate poor deck choices.
Maybe the player in question comes from a very sub-optimum metagame?
- Poor card evaluations being backed up by anecdotal evidence and "feelings" instead of math. RE: desperate ravings
Eh, you've gone off reservation for me here. If you don't want to agree with opinions on cards, don't read them.
- Posts such as "I refuse to play Blue/titans/X because their powerlevel is to high/they are overplayed/whatever" when posting a deck and then asking for advice on it is ridiculous.
Did you know that some people are irrationally angry about cards they've lost to, incapable of affording/acquiring some cards and are less gifted intellectually then you?
I could go on but ill stop myself and say that these issues have really hurt the salvation forums in the eyes of many of the grinders that could really contribute alot to the forum.
A and lot are two words.
Besides that, what difference does it make whether grinders post here or not? They're usually efficient people that wouldn't waste their time helping those they don't know.
I don't know if there is any easy fix and maybe everyone should take a second and step back and start using more logic, and not misrepresent choices. IF its made for casual play just say it, IF a card choice was made with budget options in mind also say it, dont try to defend unoptimized decks just say its a pile. And most importantly take a step back and calm down before raging about how a card will effect "casual" magic.
I don't see how this is a community issue, really. This is just an evaluation of people in general. Perhaps you should look internally and be more tolerant?
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-The first thing that really drives me nuts is how "active" the casual crowd is. Its the opposite of casual really. We so so many rants and jibes at "netdeckers", people arguing against what real judges with 1000+ post histories over "how things should work" in the rules forum and the like. I'm not sure there is really a solution to this but its absurd. I like to play casually also, I like to make goofy decks sometimes but when someone wants to play with their "netdeck" or more appropriately a competitive deck I put my fun deck aside and play with something competitive or I expect the matchup will not be in my favor and not complain.
Uh... Couple of things:
First- The majority of Magic players= casual players. This translates into the majority of this site= casual players. Naturally they're going to be more active than "grinders" or "pros" or whatever. It's like complaining about the tides coming in.
- Going with the first I have seen 10+ posts and even one huge rant thread about rage over the new mythic werewolf not being a legendary. Legendary is nearly strictly worse then playing the same card without that typing. It leads to potential clogged hands, removal by phantasmal image etc. I was about to have my mind explode when I realized it was because they couldn't use it as their EDH general. I really think that while the casual crowd should be allowed to post whatever this is just to far and embarrassing. IS it really that hard to just house rule you can use him jeez.
I fail to see why this is some kind of issue. Someone wishes a great new card (a card which they and mostly everyone else assumed would be legendary) was actually legendary so they could play it in their favorite format. How dare they voice their opinions and disappointment?!
-People having meltdowns in response to realistic deck critiques. Its not like its an insult to the creator to say a suggested change or a potential weakness in a deck.
From what I've seen of your "critiques" you basically just tell them "this deck is crap. Take out *card(s) not widely used in competative magic* and put in some real cards like *insert widely played tournament card(s) here*.
To be fair, I've only seen a few of your critiques, but I think it's a safe bet to guess that this has happened more times that what I've seen. Perhaps people should tone down their critiques into helpful suggestions.
- Very very bad and unoptimized decks being represented as good. Poor card choices being defended with poor logic. I mean I actually read a thread where someone had spent many pages arguing that the 5/5 firebreathing dragon is better then inferno titan in standard.
Again, how dare people who are most likely not hardcore tournament players express their foolish opinions?! The nerve of them for trying to make a type 2 deck that isn't the same as every other type 2 deck out there.
- Disagreeing with something instantly dismissed as "trolling" posting history or time spent playing a deck used to try and validate poor deck choices.
Erm... Time spent playing a deck is absolutely a vaild way to validate deck choices. You think pros just toss a deck together and skip off to tournaments?
- Poor card evaluations being backed up by anecdotal evidence and "feelings" instead of math. RE: desperate ravings
The irony is delicious. Guess what you've been using to validate your evaluations of this community: Anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence without any links to support it.
- Posts such as "I refuse to play Blue/titans/X because their powerlevel is to high/they are overplayed/whatever" when posting a deck and then asking for advice on it is ridiculous.
If they refuse to play blue, their deck isn't likely to have blue in it. So how is that an issue?
Not wanting to play other cards is their choice. Either give them advice not relating to the cards they don't want to play, or just move on. Don't create a thread complaining about it like you're god's gift to Magic. People have different opinions on deck building. They aren't ridiculous for wanting advice that conforms to their way to build a deck.
I could go on but ill stop myself and say that these issues have really hurt the salvation forums in the eyes of many of the grinders that could really contribute alot to the forum.
I'm sure we'll survive.
I don't know if there is any easy fix and maybe everyone should take a second and step back and start using more logic, and not misrepresent choices. IF its made for casual play just say it, IF a card choice was made with budget options in mind also say it, dont try to defend unoptimized decks just say its a pile.
And don't try to call any unoptimized deck a pile just because it's unoptimized.
And most importantly take a step back and calm down before raging about how a card will effect "casual" magic.
Replace the words "a card will effect "casual" magic" with "things you disagree with on a certain magic-related site."
tl;dr- Chill out and accept the community for what it is. Don't get angry when things you disagree with happen on this site. There's no point to it.
Everything scares me... kitties scare me... squirrels scare me... corpses....corpses bring forth a pletora of confusing feeling which i prefer not to dwell on...:p
Not many people here give a crap about professional magic players, much less their opinions. This is a community, offering more variety and volume than tcgplayer, channelfireball, manadeprived, scg, etc.
People already know where to go for professional commentary...and it's not here.
Perhaps you would have better results if you start your own threads and ask that only professionals and/or aspiring professionals reply...?
Which pros? Could you name them? I'm curious, not to mention being able to quote a pro saying that MTGS is a bad site would bolster your argument as opposed to being lumped into yet another "THIS! THIS IS HOW MAGIC IS SUPPOSED TO BE PLAYED! NOT THE WAY YOU WANT! MY WAY IS CORRECT!" rant.
tl;dr -- the hypocrisy, it burns!
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"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
I have only read the original post, so if I reiterate something someone else has said, I apologize.
I think that reputations are going to be negative regardless of who you are or what forums you are part of. Honestly, I love these forums, I got an infraction the other day because of a flaming comment (I made fun of a guy for his pink text), and rightfully so. I think our mods are on top of stuff (at least my stuff) and that they don't allow much tomfoolery to go on. On top of that, most of the people that rage often are pretty new on the forums, and get infracted, or just leave because they know that people don't appreciate them coming in screaming, we can go nowhere to prevent that from happening (unless there was a fee to join, then maybe).
In reference to people complaining about netdeckers. That just comes in when people are new, yet again, something I used to do a lot, and still dislike, but it is an accepted part of magic. It is similar to hiring a contractor to do my drywall, I can't do drywall, so I will hire it out, and I had to come to grips with some people aren't as good at building decks, so they use those for help. Anyway, naivety is the sole reason behind why people complain about netdecks (it has been many, many posts since I have). There are different strokes for different blokes and some people are all wanting to win, others are wanting the thrill of playing there own deck, new players just need to realize it.
Even in your example thread, it got edited by a mod and shot down by the users dismissing it. One irrational person should not, and usually does not define the group. For instance, not all Muslims are terrorists (see almost every Muslim), not all British have bad teeth (see Elizabeth Hurley), and not all Americans are fat (see a lot of Americans, no, past the fat ones). Basically, my point is that places will have a reputation because of a couple of people, but for the most part, I think we are a group of cool cats.
Dumb people are dumb and they will ruin things or tarnish the reputation of smart/reasonable people.
-My 2 cents.
EDIT: After reading everyone else's, those are all very, very valid points. Not everyone is wanting a pro to look over there shoulder and tell them how right/wrong they are. Individuality should be praised, not criticized. If bad (or good) people want to play with bad cards, by all means.
there is a clash of cultures on this site and it can cause problems. obviously there are lots of different types of players and thats great, and good for the community here, and good for the game. HOWEVER... the casual community here is actually very hostile to the more competitive players and often creates an environment where they will actively rage against or drown out competitive strategy discussion. its a problem.
@luminum can: its not ok to just say "accept this place for what it is or gtfo". thats ****ty dude. try to address problems in the community with a constructive attitude rather than dismissing somebody who has had a negative experience due to this problem.
there is a clash of cultures on this site and it can cause problems. obviously there are lots of different types of players and thats great, and good for the community here, and good for the game. HOWEVER... the casual community here is actually very hostile to the more competitive players and often creates an environment where they will actively rage against or drown out competitive strategy discussion. its a problem.
@luminum can: its not ok to just say "accept this place for what it is or gtfo". thats ****ty dude. try to address problems in the community with a constructive attitude rather than dismissing somebody who has had a negative experience due to this problem.
I'm sorry. I disagree with you. My impression is quite the opposite. So many things are disregarded for being "too casual" or "casual fodder", and so many competitive players have hostile attitudes towards the casual crowd (such as the OP - what's wrong with being "active"?) that perhaps people have turned defensive.
And the "problem" is, in my opinion, in your heads. I don't see a problem. I see a heterogeneous community. Just like *gasps* society.
To be honest, I think the converse is happening since there are no rules in most forums dictating that you can't have competitive discussion in a casual thread; if a casual decklist somehow finds its way into a competitive thread, you can always try reporting it and see if a moderator can work things out (as is the practice in the Standard subforum, if I remember correctly).
I may be more casual of a player, but it seems like the self-proclaimed "pros" (like the OP, perhaps) are more detrimental to the reputation of the constructed forums than the average FNM players. While I have seen people defend bad ideas to the grave (I can think of specific examples in Modern, but at least that format is still in its infancy), usually the casual crowd is hostile to the "pros" only because the "pros" haven't really done anything substantial to back up their teenage attitudes. When they try to go off about how they win all the time, it usually (there are exceptions) comes off as douchey. Thus, it becomes hard to take people seriously when they try to flex their playing prowess.
There are a lot of people worth listening to on these forums (Sene and Finn come to mind as people who present ideas in a thoughtful way and have the records to back it up), but it's a pain sifting through the armchair pros like the OP (and others) to get to the good information.
But really, is the OP upset that actual pros look unfavorably on MTGS, or is he just butthurt that people don't respect his opinion? The world may never know.
EDIT: Looks like Gaea's Regent beat me to it a little bit
EDIT2: And Sene brought up a lot of points I agree with as well -- 1.) Actual pros aren't going to come here to post about their testing/deckbuilding 2.) Casual players do get angsty for the reasons he mentioned, and I agree that is bad for the Competitive subforums
I wouldn't complain too much... this is by far the most efficiently run decklist forum that I've had the opportunity to peruse. The mods run a tight ship and information is very easy to come by. Zen approach is a good approach.
EDIT: Forgot to add: And then again, it's not just a decklist forum, there's more to it than just that.
First off, no public free-for-all Magic the Gathering forum will be the go-to place of choice for "pros" when it comes to strategy discussion (especially not the actual largest MtG forum out there, which Sally is by far). It's in this forum's nature to not exclude users that are worse at the game than a certain level. The openness of the forum is part of what has made it what it is today; you won't get ridiculed for posting bad decks and advice (from a competitive point of view).
What "pros" think of this site is not too important. What is important is the forum experience of the members here. So a better argument would be that this forum needs to provide a better experience for competitive players. A statement I could agree with, but we shouldn't do this by sacrificing the casual crowd's experience.
Quote from Dudebro »
- Going with the first I have seen 10+ posts and even one huge rant thread about rage over the new mythic werewolf not being a legendary. Legendary is nearly strictly worse then playing the same card without that typing. It leads to potential clogged hands, removal by phantasmal image etc. I was about to have my mind explode when I realized it was because they couldn't use it as their EDH general. I really think that while the casual crowd should be allowed to post whatever this is just to far and embarrassing. IS it really that hard to just house rule you can use him jeez.
You aren't being particularly tolerant. This is what a lot of people care about. EDH is a really large format. And I'm not a casual player at all, but I'd think that "errataing" cards for house rules would be really annoying and confusing to do. Not to mention how useless your house rules will be once you leave your house, so to speak. "But you play casual, so you can just pretend the cards do something they don't" is simply a poor argument, in my eyes.
If a thread in Standard New Card Discussion had derailed into this kind of conversation, sure, there would be raining infractions; but in New Card Discussion (in the Rumor Mill), I see no reason to not allow this kind of conversation (unless excessively spammy, but that's beside the point since that would apply to any conversation).
That said, I personally agree with a few of your points. Some of the perceptions the casual crowd have can, admittedly, irritate me beyond belief (such as "pros are cheaters", "netdeckers suck", "you play at a high level just because you have money to buy all the cards"), but frankly, this can be attributed to douchey, "better-than-you"-kind of posts that the competitive players send the other direction. As a very competitive player myself, I will gladly admit that I have faced a lot more unfriendly competitive players than casual players. We have an attitude problem that generates hostility towards us from the casual crowd.
But I would also like to improve the forum experience for competitive players as well, and that's something we'll be working for. Though we won't achieve this by taking away from and being condescending towards casual players.
@luminum can: its not ok to just say "accept this place for what it is or gtfo". thats ****ty dude. try to address problems in the community with a constructive attitude rather than dismissing somebody who has had a negative experience due to this problem.
That's not quite what I was saying. I was saying that, if the community as it exists is so upsetting to him (saying it made him want to vomit when he realized that EDH players wanted the gold mythics to be legendary so they could use them as generals, etc.) then it probably would be better for his sake to find somewhere more amenable to him than to continue subjecting himself to the material that so offends him. I'm all for trying to make positive changes in the community through positive examples, as other people have been recommending (and which I recommended as well in my first reply). But the OP's message doesn't make it seem like he wants to be a positive example for what he thinks is important so much as he is putting down the viewpoints that are offending him and calling that they be eliminated or that there should be a sectioned-off clubhouse where he doesn't have to interact with them. If he wants to cut himself off from the bulk of the community anyway, why remain in this particular community at all?
@luminum can: its not ok to just say "accept this place for what it is or gtfo". thats ****ty dude.
I disagree. It's exactly what needs to be said. The OP wants the entire tenor of conversation on this site to match his expectations. Such a request would likely require a radical shift in moderating policy, which is not really feasible.
Therefore, the two most reasonable remaining options are for the OP to change his attitude towards the site, or change his behavior by finding a different site.
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-People having meltdowns in response to realistic deck critiques. Its not like its an insult to the creator to say a suggested change or a potential weakness in a deck.
Its often frustration with the playtesting process itself that causes people to rage when someone critiques their deck. Also, there are no "realistic" critiques. Every player plays at different levels in different metagames.
- Very very bad and unoptimized decks being represented as good. Poor card choices being defended with poor logic. I mean I actually read a thread where someone had spent many pages arguing that the 5/5 firebreathing dragon is better then inferno titan in standard.
Again, it all comes down to the metagame. Flameblast Dragon and Inferno Titan are both pretty good but each has its own function and you always use the tool that best fits the job, right? Both cards were in when Jund, my deck of choice, was at its height and if I had to pick one it would have been the dragon(pre-Cawblade U/W control was a ***** to play against and flying fireball is OP vs Wall of Denial).
- Disagreeing with something instantly dismissed as "trolling" posting history or time spent playing a deck used to try and validate poor deck choices.
- Poor card evaluations being backed up by anecdotal evidence and "feelings" instead of math. RE: desperate ravings
I hope you're not talking about Rumor Mill threads.
I could go on but ill stop myself and say that these issues have really hurt the salvation forums in the eyes of many of the grinders that could really contribute alot to the forum. I don't know if there is any easy fix and maybe everyone should take a second and step back and start using more logic, and not misrepresent choices.
MTGS isn't just for one demographic of Magic players. New players, old timers, pros, scrubs, etc are all welcome. I don't feel this site really gives the "grinders" as much as SCG or Channel Fireball and so I implore you to step up to the challenge of perhaps writing an article or starting a serious discussion in the appropriate forum.
IF its made for casual play just say it, IF a card choice was made with budget options in mind also say it, dont try to defend unoptimized decks just say its a pile. And most importantly take a step back and calm down before raging about how a card will effect "casual" magic.
Both casual decks and budget decks have their own forums and I think the mods do a decent job of keeping threads on topic. As for raging, as long as Wizards continues to print cards there will be people who rage over them. Sorry but you gotta deal with it.
As to the overall reputation of MTGS on other sites, I really have no idea, so I won't comment. As to the attitudes of the different groups of players, I'm somewhat more infromed.
I've seen both groups, casual and competitive, be relatively snippy with each other on these forums. (Don't let the post count fool you, I've been here a while.) However, you don't see competitive players going into the casual forums and telling EDH/kitchen table players that their decks suck and they should change them. They understand that there's a place for casual, and they respect that. But problems arise because of casual players who post their pet decks to competitive forums. I lurk in the standard forum a lot, and I've seen a lot of people get very upset when told that their "insert favorite casual deck here" isn't going to win a pro tour, or even a halfway competitive FNM. And there's absolutely rampant hate for netdecking here, no one can argue that.
I wouldn't go to the extent that the OP wants, but I think more effort to seperate two different ways of playing the game would make things a lot smoother. So I agree with metamorph, it IS a problem. How you'd go about solving it, I don't know. But it is a problem, and competitive players (for the most part) are not to blame for it.
The community is much quicker to jump to defending themselves than they are to take a course of logical argument.
WELCOME TO THE INTERNET
Where people have...
Opinions
Ideas
Feelings
Complete Anonymity!
The "pro" population of MtG probably makes up what 1-5% of the actual player base? You come to one of the largest sites and expect it to be flooded with professional players bouncing ideas off each other? Thats why they have playgroups. They probably don't want to give away all the tech they have til after a tournament and by then they've already moved on to fine tuning the deck even further. If you're looking to converse with the "pro" community go hit up a GP or SCG event, not the MTGS forums...
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I like to protect frightened things perhaps. I assembled them in the fortress of beefitude for safety.
As to the overall reputation of MTGS on other sites, I really have no idea, so I won't comment. As to the attitudes of the different groups of players, I'm somewhat more infromed.
I've seen both groups, casual and competitive, be relatively snippy with each other on these forums. (Don't let the post count fool you, I've been here a while.) However, you don't see competitive players going into the casual forums and telling EDH/kitchen table players that their decks suck and they should change them. They understand that there's a place for casual, and they respect that. But problems arise because of casual players who post their pet decks to competitive forums. I lurk in the standard forum a lot, and I've seen a lot of people get very upset when told that their "insert favorite casual deck here" isn't going to win a pro tour, or even a halfway competitive FNM. And there's absolutely rampant hate for netdecking here, no one can argue that.
I wouldn't go to the extent that the OP wants, but I think more effort to seperate two different ways of playing the game would make things a lot smoother. So I agree with metamorph, it IS a problem. How you'd go about solving it, I don't know. But it is a problem, and competitive players (for the most part) are not to blame for it.
Instead of upsetting someone when they post their casual deck in the standard forums, why don't you report it to the appropriate mod so that they can move the thread to the casual forums?
Instead of upsetting someone when they post their casual deck in the standard forums, why don't you report it to the appropriate mod so that they can move the thread to the casual forums?
I agree with that. But sometimes people legitimately think their deck belongs there and make a fuss. Also, I don't usually post in them all.
-The first thing that really drives me nuts is how "active" the casual crowd is. Its the opposite of casual really. We so so many rants and jibes at "netdeckers", people arguing against what real judges with 1000+ post histories over "how things should work" in the rules forum and the like. I'm not sure there is really a solution to this but its absurd. I like to play casually also, I like to make goofy decks sometimes but when someone wants to play with their "netdeck" or more appropriately a competitive deck I put my fun deck aside and play with something competitive or I expect the matchup will not be in my favor and not complain.
- Going with the first I have seen 10+ posts and even one huge rant thread about rage over the new mythic werewolf not being a legendary. Legendary is nearly strictly worse then playing the same card without that typing. It leads to potential clogged hands, removal by phantasmal image etc. I was about to have my mind explode when I realized it was because they couldn't use it as their EDH general. I really think that while the casual crowd should be allowed to post whatever this is just to far and embarrassing. IS it really that hard to just house rule you can use him jeez.
case in point: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=384203
-People having meltdowns in response to realistic deck critiques. Its not like its an insult to the creator to say a suggested change or a potential weakness in a deck.
- Very very bad and unoptimized decks being represented as good. Poor card choices being defended with poor logic. I mean I actually read a thread where someone had spent many pages arguing that the 5/5 firebreathing dragon is better then inferno titan in standard.
- Disagreeing with something instantly dismissed as "trolling" posting history or time spent playing a deck used to try and validate poor deck choices.
- Poor card evaluations being backed up by anecdotal evidence and "feelings" instead of math. RE: desperate ravings
- Posts such as "I refuse to play Blue/titans/X because their powerlevel is to high/they are overplayed/whatever" when posting a deck and then asking for advice on it is ridiculous.
I could go on but ill stop myself and say that these issues have really hurt the salvation forums in the eyes of many of the grinders that could really contribute alot to the forum. I don't know if there is any easy fix and maybe everyone should take a second and step back and start using more logic, and not misrepresent choices. IF its made for casual play just say it, IF a card choice was made with budget options in mind also say it, dont try to defend unoptimized decks just say its a pile. And most importantly take a step back and calm down before raging about how a card will effect "casual" magic.
Anyway... I ask why it matters if the site has a "bad rep" among "pros." Is that so important? I personally don't come here for anything related to "professional" commentary or discussion; there are plenty of other places available for that. We don't need to make MTGS into another one of them. You don't care for the community here, that's fine. Others like it and would hate to see it change in the way you've described. I say let this site and its community remain what it is and those who are dissatisfied can try to make a difference in their own conduct or simply move on to another community that better meets their needs and expectations. We certainly don't need large-scale campaigning to mold everything to the desires of one particular perspective.
Basically: We don't need to try to show off for the cool kids. Take the site with its good and its flaws, or leave it be. No one forces you or anyone else to stay or leave.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
Because there is a huge potential for "crowd-sourcing" deck building and tweaking, lots of valuable feedback to be had about changes and the meta, but more and more it seems to be drowned out by "white-noise" casual players. I literally had someone argue 61 cards was ok when discussing optimizing puresteel and I mouth-vomited a bit.
I guess I feel like there should be a separate competitive section where this could take place without the nonsense and "feelings" where optimizing lists would be the one and only concern. Where people wouldnt meltdown when they posted awful lists, and instead you could just straight up say that deck is bad and here is why...
If this particular community isn't to your liking, find one that fits your particular needs better. That makes much more sense than calling to overhaul this community to suit you.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
I kid!
Let's break your post up a little:
You're talking about the Rumor Mill. People build up unrealistic expectations of card they have yet to see, and when they see the actual card their response is something along the lines of "this isn't how I imagined it to be and I'm going to act like Wizards have taken soemthing away from me :mad::mad::mad:"
So what? Why are YOU expecting calm, reasoned commentary, aimed ONLY at a card's standard constructed value, in this area of the forums? Unrealistic expectations indeed.
Pro tip for you, since obviously you feel you identify as one: People play this game for all sorts of reasons.
Those reasons may not match your reasons, but they are no less valid for that. If discussion in a thread indicates that a deck has been created by someone who has a different use in mind than you - go to another thread. There's plenty.
I also note you fail to provide any evidence to back up any of those assertions. I guess we should just ignore that bit?
Couple of points:
1. This site was set up to discuss Magic: The Gathering. There are many discussions to be had, and consequently many sections to this site.
2. This site was not set up for the sole benefit of "grinders" whoever they may be. Neither does it need their approval, whatever that may be worth.
3. If you don't like the discussions here, then start some discussions that you do like. I've quoted you enough so I'll quote someone else: "Be the change you want to see in the world". For this site that amounts to creating the kinds of discussion threads you want to read.
4. Now really. Your tone and writing suggest you hold yourself as being somewhat above this site. The site doesn't meet your expectations and you would like it to. You don't want to change your own attitudes, but you'd like everyone else to change for your convenience. Do you really think you are so different from the posters you criticize?
The second is a complaint about EDH players (wrong forum). Also, you don't understand the history of that conversation obviously. There were rumors of a "cycle-like" set of mythics that hit Vampire, Zombie, and Werewolf... they're disappointed, understandably.
People don't like being criticized. Who knew?
Not everyone is as gifted intellectually as yourself. Accept this. Move on.
Maybe the player in question comes from a very sub-optimum metagame?
Eh, you've gone off reservation for me here. If you don't want to agree with opinions on cards, don't read them.
Did you know that some people are irrationally angry about cards they've lost to, incapable of affording/acquiring some cards and are less gifted intellectually then you?
A and lot are two words.
Besides that, what difference does it make whether grinders post here or not? They're usually efficient people that wouldn't waste their time helping those they don't know.
I don't see how this is a community issue, really. This is just an evaluation of people in general. Perhaps you should look internally and be more tolerant?
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Uh... Couple of things:
First- The majority of Magic players= casual players. This translates into the majority of this site= casual players. Naturally they're going to be more active than "grinders" or "pros" or whatever. It's like complaining about the tides coming in.
I fail to see why this is some kind of issue. Someone wishes a great new card (a card which they and mostly everyone else assumed would be legendary) was actually legendary so they could play it in their favorite format. How dare they voice their opinions and disappointment?!
From what I've seen of your "critiques" you basically just tell them "this deck is crap. Take out *card(s) not widely used in competative magic* and put in some real cards like *insert widely played tournament card(s) here*.
To be fair, I've only seen a few of your critiques, but I think it's a safe bet to guess that this has happened more times that what I've seen. Perhaps people should tone down their critiques into helpful suggestions.
Again, how dare people who are most likely not hardcore tournament players express their foolish opinions?! The nerve of them for trying to make a type 2 deck that isn't the same as every other type 2 deck out there.
Erm... Time spent playing a deck is absolutely a vaild way to validate deck choices. You think pros just toss a deck together and skip off to tournaments?
The irony is delicious. Guess what you've been using to validate your evaluations of this community: Anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence without any links to support it.
If they refuse to play blue, their deck isn't likely to have blue in it. So how is that an issue?
Not wanting to play other cards is their choice. Either give them advice not relating to the cards they don't want to play, or just move on. Don't create a thread complaining about it like you're god's gift to Magic. People have different opinions on deck building. They aren't ridiculous for wanting advice that conforms to their way to build a deck.
I'm sure we'll survive.
And don't try to call any unoptimized deck a pile just because it's unoptimized.
Replace the words "a card will effect "casual" magic" with "things you disagree with on a certain magic-related site."
tl;dr- Chill out and accept the community for what it is. Don't get angry when things you disagree with happen on this site. There's no point to it.
{Magic: The RPG}
People already know where to go for professional commentary...and it's not here.
Perhaps you would have better results if you start your own threads and ask that only professionals and/or aspiring professionals reply...?
Which pros? Could you name them? I'm curious, not to mention being able to quote a pro saying that MTGS is a bad site would bolster your argument as opposed to being lumped into yet another "THIS! THIS IS HOW MAGIC IS SUPPOSED TO BE PLAYED! NOT THE WAY YOU WANT! MY WAY IS CORRECT!" rant.
tl;dr -- the hypocrisy, it burns!
"Sometimes, the situation is outracing a threat, sometimes it's ignoring it, and sometimes it involves sideboarding in 4x Hope//Pray." --Doug Linn
Just try to be a good member, set a good example. That's the most positive thing that you can do to improve things.
I think that reputations are going to be negative regardless of who you are or what forums you are part of. Honestly, I love these forums, I got an infraction the other day because of a flaming comment (I made fun of a guy for his pink text), and rightfully so. I think our mods are on top of stuff (at least my stuff) and that they don't allow much tomfoolery to go on. On top of that, most of the people that rage often are pretty new on the forums, and get infracted, or just leave because they know that people don't appreciate them coming in screaming, we can go nowhere to prevent that from happening (unless there was a fee to join, then maybe).
In reference to people complaining about netdeckers. That just comes in when people are new, yet again, something I used to do a lot, and still dislike, but it is an accepted part of magic. It is similar to hiring a contractor to do my drywall, I can't do drywall, so I will hire it out, and I had to come to grips with some people aren't as good at building decks, so they use those for help. Anyway, naivety is the sole reason behind why people complain about netdecks (it has been many, many posts since I have). There are different strokes for different blokes and some people are all wanting to win, others are wanting the thrill of playing there own deck, new players just need to realize it.
Even in your example thread, it got edited by a mod and shot down by the users dismissing it. One irrational person should not, and usually does not define the group. For instance, not all Muslims are terrorists (see almost every Muslim), not all British have bad teeth (see Elizabeth Hurley), and not all Americans are fat (see a lot of Americans, no, past the fat ones). Basically, my point is that places will have a reputation because of a couple of people, but for the most part, I think we are a group of cool cats.
Dumb people are dumb and they will ruin things or tarnish the reputation of smart/reasonable people.
-My 2 cents.
EDIT: After reading everyone else's, those are all very, very valid points. Not everyone is wanting a pro to look over there shoulder and tell them how right/wrong they are. Individuality should be praised, not criticized. If bad (or good) people want to play with bad cards, by all means.
MTGS egos at their finest.
Thoughts on proxies:
there is a clash of cultures on this site and it can cause problems. obviously there are lots of different types of players and thats great, and good for the community here, and good for the game. HOWEVER... the casual community here is actually very hostile to the more competitive players and often creates an environment where they will actively rage against or drown out competitive strategy discussion. its a problem.
@luminum can: its not ok to just say "accept this place for what it is or gtfo". thats ****ty dude. try to address problems in the community with a constructive attitude rather than dismissing somebody who has had a negative experience due to this problem.
I'm sorry. I disagree with you. My impression is quite the opposite. So many things are disregarded for being "too casual" or "casual fodder", and so many competitive players have hostile attitudes towards the casual crowd (such as the OP - what's wrong with being "active"?) that perhaps people have turned defensive.
And the "problem" is, in my opinion, in your heads. I don't see a problem. I see a heterogeneous community. Just like *gasps* society.
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There are a lot of people worth listening to on these forums (Sene and Finn come to mind as people who present ideas in a thoughtful way and have the records to back it up), but it's a pain sifting through the armchair pros like the OP (and others) to get to the good information.
But really, is the OP upset that actual pros look unfavorably on MTGS, or is he just butthurt that people don't respect his opinion? The world may never know.
EDIT: Looks like Gaea's Regent beat me to it a little bit
EDIT2: And Sene brought up a lot of points I agree with as well -- 1.) Actual pros aren't going to come here to post about their testing/deckbuilding 2.) Casual players do get angsty for the reasons he mentioned, and I agree that is bad for the Competitive subforums
EDIT: Forgot to add: And then again, it's not just a decklist forum, there's more to it than just that.
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What "pros" think of this site is not too important. What is important is the forum experience of the members here. So a better argument would be that this forum needs to provide a better experience for competitive players. A statement I could agree with, but we shouldn't do this by sacrificing the casual crowd's experience.
You aren't being particularly tolerant. This is what a lot of people care about. EDH is a really large format. And I'm not a casual player at all, but I'd think that "errataing" cards for house rules would be really annoying and confusing to do. Not to mention how useless your house rules will be once you leave your house, so to speak. "But you play casual, so you can just pretend the cards do something they don't" is simply a poor argument, in my eyes.
If a thread in Standard New Card Discussion had derailed into this kind of conversation, sure, there would be raining infractions; but in New Card Discussion (in the Rumor Mill), I see no reason to not allow this kind of conversation (unless excessively spammy, but that's beside the point since that would apply to any conversation).
That said, I personally agree with a few of your points. Some of the perceptions the casual crowd have can, admittedly, irritate me beyond belief (such as "pros are cheaters", "netdeckers suck", "you play at a high level just because you have money to buy all the cards"), but frankly, this can be attributed to douchey, "better-than-you"-kind of posts that the competitive players send the other direction. As a very competitive player myself, I will gladly admit that I have faced a lot more unfriendly competitive players than casual players. We have an attitude problem that generates hostility towards us from the casual crowd.
But I would also like to improve the forum experience for competitive players as well, and that's something we'll be working for. Though we won't achieve this by taking away from and being condescending towards casual players.
That's not quite what I was saying. I was saying that, if the community as it exists is so upsetting to him (saying it made him want to vomit when he realized that EDH players wanted the gold mythics to be legendary so they could use them as generals, etc.) then it probably would be better for his sake to find somewhere more amenable to him than to continue subjecting himself to the material that so offends him. I'm all for trying to make positive changes in the community through positive examples, as other people have been recommending (and which I recommended as well in my first reply). But the OP's message doesn't make it seem like he wants to be a positive example for what he thinks is important so much as he is putting down the viewpoints that are offending him and calling that they be eliminated or that there should be a sectioned-off clubhouse where he doesn't have to interact with them. If he wants to cut himself off from the bulk of the community anyway, why remain in this particular community at all?
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
I disagree. It's exactly what needs to be said. The OP wants the entire tenor of conversation on this site to match his expectations. Such a request would likely require a radical shift in moderating policy, which is not really feasible.
Therefore, the two most reasonable remaining options are for the OP to change his attitude towards the site, or change his behavior by finding a different site.
Its often frustration with the playtesting process itself that causes people to rage when someone critiques their deck. Also, there are no "realistic" critiques. Every player plays at different levels in different metagames.
Again, it all comes down to the metagame. Flameblast Dragon and Inferno Titan are both pretty good but each has its own function and you always use the tool that best fits the job, right? Both cards were in when Jund, my deck of choice, was at its height and if I had to pick one it would have been the dragon(pre-Cawblade U/W control was a ***** to play against and flying fireball is OP vs Wall of Denial).
- Disagreeing with something instantly dismissed as "trolling" posting history or time spent playing a deck used to try and validate poor deck choices.
I hope you're not talking about Rumor Mill threads.
MTGS isn't just for one demographic of Magic players. New players, old timers, pros, scrubs, etc are all welcome. I don't feel this site really gives the "grinders" as much as SCG or Channel Fireball and so I implore you to step up to the challenge of perhaps writing an article or starting a serious discussion in the appropriate forum.
Both casual decks and budget decks have their own forums and I think the mods do a decent job of keeping threads on topic. As for raging, as long as Wizards continues to print cards there will be people who rage over them. Sorry but you gotta deal with it.
I've seen both groups, casual and competitive, be relatively snippy with each other on these forums. (Don't let the post count fool you, I've been here a while.) However, you don't see competitive players going into the casual forums and telling EDH/kitchen table players that their decks suck and they should change them. They understand that there's a place for casual, and they respect that. But problems arise because of casual players who post their pet decks to competitive forums. I lurk in the standard forum a lot, and I've seen a lot of people get very upset when told that their "insert favorite casual deck here" isn't going to win a pro tour, or even a halfway competitive FNM. And there's absolutely rampant hate for netdecking here, no one can argue that.
I wouldn't go to the extent that the OP wants, but I think more effort to seperate two different ways of playing the game would make things a lot smoother. So I agree with metamorph, it IS a problem. How you'd go about solving it, I don't know. But it is a problem, and competitive players (for the most part) are not to blame for it.
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The "pro" population of MtG probably makes up what 1-5% of the actual player base? You come to one of the largest sites and expect it to be flooded with professional players bouncing ideas off each other? Thats why they have playgroups. They probably don't want to give away all the tech they have til after a tournament and by then they've already moved on to fine tuning the deck even further. If you're looking to converse with the "pro" community go hit up a GP or SCG event, not the MTGS forums...
Instead of upsetting someone when they post their casual deck in the standard forums, why don't you report it to the appropriate mod so that they can move the thread to the casual forums?
I agree with that. But sometimes people legitimately think their deck belongs there and make a fuss. Also, I don't usually post in them all.
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WRG Kibler Pod
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Modern:
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Commander:
WUB Zur the Enchanter
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BB Zombie Apocalypse
Plains.
Needs more Hexproof. No exceptions.