I will say, Azrael ,that since you've come on even I've seen what appears to be a severe improvement, not to say the previous state was in any kind of shambles.
Ihave to agree with an above poster: It's not that this site is too strict, it's that other sites are too lenient. I've been the strict one, and let me say, it's annoying when you see other moderators not doing their jobs, or just not being professional, etc. I love this site's operations, I really do. I'm okay with getting rules enforced on me, because that is how it is! Rules exist for a reason, and I will say this place has fair ones, I believe. And hey, the staff does a good job of fixing stuff when they can, and listening to their users.
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Good job at clearing that ugly mess up.
OP is clearly wrong.
Rank has it's privileges, I suppose. Instead of being a pack of trolls, it's a good old boys club. And for the work you do, you've earned it.
Also, the base issue here is the occasional new user who gets upset over infractions. I remember my first few, it's no big deal. But it can seem a little unfair to a new user when trying to learn the ins and outs of this whole "try and find some mod's help desk and since your all pissed off now good luck trying to get on his good side" deal.
Tl;dr the rules are many and the mods are sort of strict here, if you don't like it go back to 4chan
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"Wizards could put $100 bills in packs and people would complain about how they were folded."
The fact that if particular staff members use gimmick accounts to shill position on an issue makes this an admirable but moot point.
derp.
This was addressed as soon as it was brought to my attention, & the entire staff has been made aware that their gimmicks are for social occasions only.
Because then everyone would also be allowed to freely criticize anyone who's making stupid posts. Would you post something stupid when you know the only effect it will have is that everyone is going to call you an idiot (or probably worse, with the no-rule-environment obviously also allowing all the words that are currently filtered)?
Would you regard a page and a half of posts calling some one a moron as intellignent posting?? As that is what is likely to happen regardless of the quality of the original posts.
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
Because then everyone would also be allowed to freely criticize anyone who's making stupid posts. Would you post something stupid when you know the only effect it will have is that everyone is going to call you an idiot (or probably worse, with the no-rule-environment obviously also allowing all the words that are currently filtered)?
In my opinion, "people will stop posting stupid things because they could get flamed" is a far less likely scenario than "people will continue to post stupid things, followed by two pages of 'let's pile on that guy because he said something stupid.'"
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I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
In my opinion, "people will stop posting stupid things because they could get flamed" is a far less likely scenario than "people will continue to post stupid things, followed by two pages of 'let's pile on that guy because he said something stupid.'"
This is by far I think what would happen. When you give anyone free reign to rail on others, people will do so with no regard for whether it's a good idea or not. Under a no rule system on the internet, bad ideas and trolls flourish.
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the user formerly known as isopsycho86
DCI Judge L2 - Minneapolis
Thanks to Megabug/Sgt Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Sig Legacy RUBFaithless Dredge
You have an example forum that demonstrates this? Beside 4chan?
4 Chan doesn't even work...it's just a bunch of random image threads wherein the trolls troll themselves into oblivion and it devolves into Loli images regardless of the original topic...
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the user formerly known as isopsycho86
DCI Judge L2 - Minneapolis
Thanks to Megabug/Sgt Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Sig Legacy RUBFaithless Dredge
4 Chan doesn't even work...it's just a bunch of random image threads wherein the trolls troll themselves into oblivion and it devolves into Loli images regardless of the original topic...
Depends on your definition of "works well." If getting flamed and harassed because someone else thinks what you've said is stupid is a regular and accepted occurrence, I wouldn't consider that to be an acceptable state of affairs at all.
To repeat the words of mikeyG there, "put up or shut up"
And please don't fall back on the "I have them, I just won't show you, because they don't matter" Pleaee, if you're ever in court, try doing that while representing yourself. (Don't actually do that)
If you say you have experience with it, give us an example. Otherwise, don't propose things and then say you have personal experience without giving examples of it. Not asking for incredible evidence here, just that the place exists. If they no longer exist, and they had the system you speak of, what will be our first assumption?
Also, here's a question: If someone cares if people don't like what they say enough to stop posting things that even a single person deems "stupid", then do you think they really wouldn't be afraid of a ban?
Most of my decks I post would be considered stupid or worthless by most competitive players, and I have no issue with that. They on't get to come in and tell me what a worthless pile I have, and I don't get to junk up their thread with jank suggestions unless they ask for it. Yes, sometimes, I feel certain things are misunderstood, but still- I don't make budget suggestions in serious competitive discussion, they don't call my deck a "worthless poo-pile". If they were allowed to come in and do that? It would deter me from posting on this site at all, not just from posting "stupid things"
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Chaosworm, look, if you don't want to give examples, then don't. You'd be a horrible lawyer, though, and I must inform you that you've proven that your point is invalid yourself, we haven't hadto do much of anything. While I understand what you are trying to say, a self-governing communtiy on the internet with no real power tends to devolve into chaos. Anarchy is not always the answer
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You're not really free to say whatever you like when the fear of being publicly harassed and humiliated for saying the wrong thing is looming over you. Technically, you have the freedom to do so, but in practice it doesn't work that way.
I would take that any time over not being allowed to express your opinions freely.
LordofSecrets: If I gave you examples, would you even care?
You can still demean the quality of someone's post, you just can't call them names when doing so. It's perfectly fine to say "Why would you play Mordant Dragon, its terrible when compared to a Inferno Titan". Simply allowing our userbase to demean others opinions with abrasive language is not what this site is about.
A caustic attitude severely hampers the growth and sustainability of a website. If when i first started posting here, people had just called me "retarded" and "a moron" for playing a deck that folded to a pyroclasm, i'd have left and never looked back. Instead, we encourage our userbase to be polite and helpful, as to foster and grow our community.
You can still demean the quality of someone's post, you just can't call them names when doing so. It's perfectly fine to say "Why would you play Mordant Dragon, its terrible when compared to a Inferno Titan". Simply allowing our userbase to demean others opinions with abrasive language is not what this site is about.
A caustic attitude severely hampers the growth and sustainability of a website. If when i first started posting here, people had just called me "retarded" and "a moron" for playing a deck that folded to a pyroclasm, i'd have left and never looked back. Instead, we encourage our userbase to be polite and helpful, as to foster and grow our community.
I'm in perfect agreement here. There's nothing wrong with telling another person that you disagree with something they've posted, or showing them why something they've said is incorrect. The rules against flaming, etc. mean that you're doing that without using personal attacks or harassment. The rules aren't a blanket restriction against that content, they're against a particular tone and attitude when expressing that particular content. When you're expressing disagreement or correcting a false claim, do so in a way that isn't going to drive someone away with bile and vitriol. Do it like a decent, reasonable human being, and there's no problem.
Like I said, I'd like to remain impartial here and have come to appreciate the well-developed discourse this site provides, but please don't pretend that websites collapse in on themselves as soon as a little leniency is introduced.
I'm arguing against the claims that advocate not just a more "laissez-faire" style of moderation, but specifically self-governance through a culture of harassment and attacks on "stupid" posts and users.
I'd hardly consider any of those communities to be terribly inspiring role models, either. Have they collapsed on themselves? No. Would I want this site to be more like them? No.
Wait, those are all forum sites? I must be unaware of what a forum site is...
I think I'm going to step out of this. I have nothing to gain in this argument, and I more than trust the actual staff, and Luminum Here, to take care of this...
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I'm arguing against the claims that advocate not just a more "laissez-faire" style of moderation, but specifically self-governance through a culture of harassment and attacks on "stupid" posts and users.
My post was aimed at a broader audience, and was just intended to provide a little counterbalance to what I considered egregiously lopsided discussion. Of course, I am aware of your feelings on the matter and respect you as a poster, luminum_can; it was not my intention to attack anything other than the repetitive "Source? Source!?" talk.
And while I cannot say I spend much time on the forums of all the sites I posted, I'm fairly certain that most of them fit the criteria of a merit-driven, moderation-light forum, facebook being chief among them.
I'd hardly consider any of those communities to be terribly inspiring role models, either. Have they collapsed on themselves? No. Would I want this site to be more like them? No.
I guess then I'm confused as to what you'd like this site to be more like. While I'd like to be able to say it's achieved perfection, this sort of CI does keep cropping up, and obviously some portion of the population would like to see a change. I don't mean it to sound like I'm cheering for the underdogs, as this site does a stellar job, but it did seem for a while there like a number of ingrained members were berating the relative newcomer for their lackluster posting quality. I found that quite ironic, to say the least.
Edit- @Zephynoir: my apologies, I was unspecific. All of the sites named do have a forum or forum-like quality, although by no means are they all forum-driven. I would like to draw a little attention to Facebook, though, as it specifically is a forum (albeit it has, let's say, trancended the model) where most anything legal can be posted without interference by the administration.
Can you estimate the size of those communities compared to this one? Also how often you get new members joining, as opposed to the same group driving the majority of discussions? Those are two pretty important factors regarding how much governance is needed. In smaller communities with a fairly stable cast of users, you need a lot less rules and structure because the standards for conduct can develop organically and remain more or less unspoken and agreed upon by everyone. But when the community is larger, or you have a much higher degree of turnover and influx of new members, the need for codified standards of conduct is increased, because the community becomes too big to govern itself. Not everyone will know the unspoken rules, and conflicts will emerge without any way of preventing them from spiraling out of control. This site definitely falls into the latter category. Some subforums do tend more toward the smaller, insular subcommunity, but the site as a whole is huge and gets a lot of new blood all the time, and in big spikes at certain times (i.e. rumor season).
Ihave to agree with an above poster: It's not that this site is too strict, it's that other sites are too lenient. I've been the strict one, and let me say, it's annoying when you see other moderators not doing their jobs, or just not being professional, etc. I love this site's operations, I really do. I'm okay with getting rules enforced on me, because that is how it is! Rules exist for a reason, and I will say this place has fair ones, I believe. And hey, the staff does a good job of fixing stuff when they can, and listening to their users.
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OP is clearly wrong.
Rank has it's privileges, I suppose. Instead of being a pack of trolls, it's a good old boys club. And for the work you do, you've earned it.
Also, the base issue here is the occasional new user who gets upset over infractions. I remember my first few, it's no big deal. But it can seem a little unfair to a new user when trying to learn the ins and outs of this whole "try and find some mod's help desk and since your all pissed off now good luck trying to get on his good side" deal.
Tl;dr the rules are many and the mods are sort of strict here, if you don't like it go back to 4chan
Tribute to Dr. Jeebus
Not a little Sheeple.
This was addressed as soon as it was brought to my attention, & the entire staff has been made aware that their gimmicks are for social occasions only.
Would you regard a page and a half of posts calling some one a moron as intellignent posting?? As that is what is likely to happen regardless of the quality of the original posts.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
In my opinion, "people will stop posting stupid things because they could get flamed" is a far less likely scenario than "people will continue to post stupid things, followed by two pages of 'let's pile on that guy because he said something stupid.'"
This is by far I think what would happen. When you give anyone free reign to rail on others, people will do so with no regard for whether it's a good idea or not. Under a no rule system on the internet, bad ideas and trolls flourish.
DCI Judge L2 - Minneapolis
Thanks to Megabug/Sgt Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Sig
Legacy
RUBFaithless Dredge
You have an example forum that demonstrates this? Beside 4chan?
4 Chan doesn't even work...it's just a bunch of random image threads wherein the trolls troll themselves into oblivion and it devolves into Loli images regardless of the original topic...
DCI Judge L2 - Minneapolis
Thanks to Megabug/Sgt Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Sig
Legacy
RUBFaithless Dredge
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
That was kind of my point...
I'm aware of that...some people think the system works though and are sarcasm impared...
DCI Judge L2 - Minneapolis
Thanks to Megabug/Sgt Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Sig
Legacy
RUBFaithless Dredge
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
No, he has them. He's just not going to share. That would ruin the surprise.
And please don't fall back on the "I have them, I just won't show you, because they don't matter" Pleaee, if you're ever in court, try doing that while representing yourself. (Don't actually do that)
If you say you have experience with it, give us an example. Otherwise, don't propose things and then say you have personal experience without giving examples of it. Not asking for incredible evidence here, just that the place exists. If they no longer exist, and they had the system you speak of, what will be our first assumption?
Also, here's a question: If someone cares if people don't like what they say enough to stop posting things that even a single person deems "stupid", then do you think they really wouldn't be afraid of a ban?
Most of my decks I post would be considered stupid or worthless by most competitive players, and I have no issue with that. They on't get to come in and tell me what a worthless pile I have, and I don't get to junk up their thread with jank suggestions unless they ask for it. Yes, sometimes, I feel certain things are misunderstood, but still- I don't make budget suggestions in serious competitive discussion, they don't call my deck a "worthless poo-pile". If they were allowed to come in and do that? It would deter me from posting on this site at all, not just from posting "stupid things"
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If he said yes, would you actually produce the evidence you claim to have?
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R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
You can still demean the quality of someone's post, you just can't call them names when doing so. It's perfectly fine to say "Why would you play Mordant Dragon, its terrible when compared to a Inferno Titan". Simply allowing our userbase to demean others opinions with abrasive language is not what this site is about.
A caustic attitude severely hampers the growth and sustainability of a website. If when i first started posting here, people had just called me "retarded" and "a moron" for playing a deck that folded to a pyroclasm, i'd have left and never looked back. Instead, we encourage our userbase to be polite and helpful, as to foster and grow our community.
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
I'm in perfect agreement here. There's nothing wrong with telling another person that you disagree with something they've posted, or showing them why something they've said is incorrect. The rules against flaming, etc. mean that you're doing that without using personal attacks or harassment. The rules aren't a blanket restriction against that content, they're against a particular tone and attitude when expressing that particular content. When you're expressing disagreement or correcting a false claim, do so in a way that isn't going to drive someone away with bile and vitriol. Do it like a decent, reasonable human being, and there's no problem.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
www.facebook.com
www.youtube.com
www.amazon.com
www.wikipedia.org
www.somethingawful.com
www.icanhascheezburger.com
Like I said, I'd like to remain impartial here and have come to appreciate the well-developed discourse this site provides, but please don't pretend that websites collapse in on themselves as soon as a little leniency is introduced.
I'd hardly consider any of those communities to be terribly inspiring role models, either. Have they collapsed on themselves? No. Would I want this site to be more like them? No.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
I think I'm going to step out of this. I have nothing to gain in this argument, and I more than trust the actual staff, and Luminum Here, to take care of this...
Done by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery signatures!
My post was aimed at a broader audience, and was just intended to provide a little counterbalance to what I considered egregiously lopsided discussion. Of course, I am aware of your feelings on the matter and respect you as a poster, luminum_can; it was not my intention to attack anything other than the repetitive "Source? Source!?" talk.
And while I cannot say I spend much time on the forums of all the sites I posted, I'm fairly certain that most of them fit the criteria of a merit-driven, moderation-light forum, facebook being chief among them.
I guess then I'm confused as to what you'd like this site to be more like. While I'd like to be able to say it's achieved perfection, this sort of CI does keep cropping up, and obviously some portion of the population would like to see a change. I don't mean it to sound like I'm cheering for the underdogs, as this site does a stellar job, but it did seem for a while there like a number of ingrained members were berating the relative newcomer for their lackluster posting quality. I found that quite ironic, to say the least.
Edit- @Zephynoir: my apologies, I was unspecific. All of the sites named do have a forum or forum-like quality, although by no means are they all forum-driven. I would like to draw a little attention to Facebook, though, as it specifically is a forum (albeit it has, let's say, trancended the model) where most anything legal can be posted without interference by the administration.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
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