Ridiculous that this happened.
Hopefully the poster who tried to rage-bait the user in that advice thread will be infracted.
But that probably won't happen.
Because you used the phrase 'adult children' and 'neckbeard', his post where he insulted and 'called out' someone who posted about thinking about going on a shooting spree will go unpunished.
This site is having a banner week. Ravnica being real despite 'good evidence' it isn't, putting a fake on the spoiler, and now this debacle.
The score appears to be:
-1 Staff member
-1 User (the guy who created the thread was banned)
0 repurcussions for trashing someone who is openly and seriously talking about shooting at people. I mean it's not like this sort of behavior on the internet has led to people who are mentally unstable going over the edge before. Oh wai..... I mean I don't know this part for sure but it certainly appears that way, I havn't seen any red text.
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here on mtgsalvation it is ok to potentially start a national tragedy, and even though it's ok to try to stop it YOU BETTER NOT HURT THE USERS FEELINGS IN DOING SO. because that would be a tragedy
Kijin, as an adult child, it saddens me to see you off of the mod team. hopefully someone with as much experience and level headedness can even compare to your style.
homies for life #broski
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i like banning people because it makes people I don't like go away
I actually cannot believe that no infraction's been issued. Seriously that kind of talk would practically never be tolerated normally, ridiculous.
I am suprised about that as well, I thought we would of seen at least something being handed down.
An explination I could think of, is that there is talk about what the fallout of it should be and that the mods and admins don't want to do anything until they have a plan in place to ensure what they come up with is enforced and made 100% clear.
I actually cannot believe that no infraction's been issued. Seriously that kind of talk would practically never be tolerated normally, ridiculous.
Not only has there been no infraction apparently issued for this behavior, but no infraction was issued when the same dude made a thread decrying Kijin for his abhorrence at the issue on the way out.
This thread was locked until "further notice".
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I am suprised about that as well, I thought we would of seen at least something being handed down.
An explination I could think of, is that there is talk about what the fallout of it should be and that the mods and admins don't want to do anything until they have a plan in place to ensure what they come up with is enforced and made 100% clear.
Idk to be honest....
Well they decided to ban a member and de-staff another without any dialouge among the staff, so don't have high hopes. I just hope the noise made about this will force them to reconsider. It's kind of sad, actually, that the userbase has to fight tooth-and-nail about every issue. #priorities
I am suprised about that as well, I thought we would of seen at least something being handed down.
An explination I could think of, is that there is talk about what the fallout of it should be and that the mods and admins don't want to do anything until they have a plan in place to ensure what they come up with is enforced and made 100% clear.
Idk to be honest....
I'm going to plagiarize myself for a second and post something I said elsewhere, if slightly amended to contain my vitriol:
Whether or not the staff is "currently discussing this," there's nothing to work on. The staff banned a guy to "protect him" and removed a member of staff for expressing moral outrage through the use of "bad words," and then immediately went on to shield or support arguments made by moral vacuums in the MTGS community. There is no excuse for that. The accomplished all of the things needed to be discussed quietly in the mod lounge and act out in careful consideration haphazard and without forethought, and are now discussing the pressing, immediate issues that plague the site slowly, quietly, in private, away from the people directly involved.
The staff's priorities are up their ass, as is their moral heading. As someone who literally does not give a second glance to "Internet matters," the anger and disappointment I feel for this community and those in charge of it is visceral and very real.
Well they decided to ban a member and de-staff another without any dialouge among the staff, so don't have high hopes. I just hope the noise made about this will force them to reconsider. It's kind of sad, actually, that the userbase has to fight tooth-and-nail about every issue. #priorities
Change is hard to come by...
And about the banning, there is that precedent. A user was banned for the same type of thing before and I do believe that user returned as soon as they showed that they were recieving help.
Im honestly waiting to see what the staff has to say before I say anymore.
It is being discussed amongst the staff and right now I don't have a good reason for why it was not dealt with sooner. It will be. It was not acceptable.
@kijin - The issue the staff had was not your comments. In fact, I think we all agree that you were in the right. The issue was the condescending tone of voice and mockery of the people in a community you are supposed to represent. You might not see it that way but the report button did. I think some people know you well enough to read into your innuendo and intonation but at face value your comments were deemed inappropriate for a moderator.
It is being discussed amongst the staff and right now I don't have a good reason for why it was not dealt with sooner. It will be. It was not acceptable.
I'm going to plagiarize myself for a second and post something I said elsewhere, if slightly amended to contain my vitriol:
Whether or not the staff is "currently discussing this," there's nothing to work on. The staff banned a guy to "protect him" and removed a member of staff for expressing moral outrage through the use of "bad words," and then immediately went on to shield or support arguments made by moral vacuums in the MTGS community. There is no excuse for that. The accomplished all of the things needed to be discussed quietly in the mod lounge and act out in careful consideration haphazard and without forethought, and are now discussing the pressing, immediate issues that plague the site slowly, quietly, in private, away from the people directly involved.
The staff's priorities are up their ass, as is their moral heading. As someone who literally does not give a second glance to "Internet matters," the anger and disappointment I feel for this community and those in charge of it is visceral and very real.
@Galspanic: There isn't a good reason on why it wasn't dealt with sooner?
Im sorry, but that isn't a good answer in my eyes. That seems like a way of saying that action is only being taken because of the reaction from it.... at least thats how I see it
@kijin - The issue the staff had was not your comments. In fact, I think we all agree that you were in the right. The issue was the condescending tone of voice and mockery of the people in a community you are supposed to represent. You might not see it that way but the report button did. I think some people know you well enough to read into your innuendo and intonation but at face value your comments were deemed inappropriate for a moderator.
I don't want to staff a site devoid of moral heading or urgency. My comments being unbecoming of a staff is hilariously ineffectual an excuse for why this issue was glossed over in the excitement to remove the bold tag from my name.
It is being discussed amongst the staff and right now I don't have a good reason for why it was not dealt with sooner. It will be. It was not acceptable.
@kijin - The issue the staff had was not your comments. In fact, I think we all agree that you were in the right. The issue was the condescending tone of voice and mockery of the people in a community you are supposed to represent. You might not see it that way but the report button did. I think some people know you well enough to read into your innuendo and intonation but at face value your comments were deemed inappropriate for a moderator.
While you're here, is it correct to say that we are now allowed to call people assclown?
@Galspanic: There isn't a good reason on why it wasn't dealt with sooner?
Im sorry, but that isn't a good answer in my eyes. That seems like a way of saying that action is only being taken because of the reaction from it.... at least thats how I see it
It would certainly appear that the staff jsut caters to who can cry/whine the loudest at this point. This is why Kijin was removed, this is why NavyJoe's thread stayed up to allow him to whine loudly, and this is why action is finally being taken way late on a reprehensible action.
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Putting aside the talk that the ruling needs to be examined/will probably be put right soon, whichever staff member(s) made this snap decision needs to seriously examine their priorities.
Not reprimanding a poster that responded to a cry for help with disgust and condemnation is just ridiculous. And asking a respected moderator to step down for pointing out what a terrible response it was (granted, not in a very tactful way) feels like coddling the posters who are out of touch with reality.
tl;dr One post deserved an immediate response, while one deserved discussion, and the moderators switched the proper reactions for them. Hopefully they'll do better in the future.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
That's a bit vague, but I suspect that I agree with you. A lot of things were going on simultaneously and aside from saying that it is my opinion that an error occurred in the order of operations I don't know what else to say.
@Galspanic: There isn't a good reason on why it wasn't dealt with sooner?[
Unfortunately all action taken now will be perceived by some as a reaction to this discussion. Honestly, I assumed that once the thread was closed and the OP was banned that Navy Joe had already been issued an infraction... because that is the obvious thing to do - to the point that I didn't even look.
@kpaca - Assclown? I suppose in the right context it's okay, but I can't think of too many contexts outside NSFWlandia that it would be. But I am not the end all for decency.
tl;dr One post deserved an immediate response, while one deserved discussion, and the moderators switched the proper reactions for them. Hopefully they'll do better in the future.
It would certainly appear that the staff jsut caters to who can cry/whine the loudest at this point. This is why Kijin was removed, this is why NavyJoe's thread stayed up to allow him to whine loudly, and this is why action is finally being taken way late on a reprehensible action.
Kpaca, im going to honestly say that while I rarely find common ground with you, that actually pretty much sums up how I'm seeing this.
All that should of happened in that thread, was that people should of said, and only said: Go see a doctor.
People didnt and now it seems like they are hurt that someone came in and told them how asinine (There is another few words I'd like to say, but I want to be able to use the speakeasy before x-mas) they were acting. People got hurt and reported him. I will agree that his way of saying it did come off mockingly at first. But as I reread it more, Kijin seemed more and more in the right in saying that.
Still waiting on an explanation on why it took/is taking so long to deal with an obviously inflammatory line of posting, which appears glacial compared to the time taken to ask a moderator to step down who did LESS wrong.
You will have to find that explanation from someone else. I don't know. I really don't and feel like it was a mistake. It is something that needs to be addressed.
The issue is that the post didn't actually break any rules of WCT or Personal Advice. Could it be taken as inflamittory? Yes. Should it have been said? No. Could it have been rephrased to accomplish the same purpose? Yes. I get the gist of what Navy Joe is trying to say, but he said it in the worst way possible. Much like Kijin did.
As someone who respects Kijin for the work he's done to improve this site, i'm sad to see him burn out like this. I'm sure he understands, as his opening post says, that this is not something isolated to this incident. He understands this, and i hope that if he ever wants to return, he'll show an improved demeanor. He's been a great moderator for a long time.
I know that every user has their own grand vision of what salve is, but the main thing salve is, is a place for everyone to come post about magic without fear of trolling/flaming and other behavior that scars the internet. That means our userbase is vast. That means your gonna hate someone's posting style or arrogance or whatever. Whatever the reason people come here, the rules we have are meant to make people feel welcome and safe within those rules. When a user breaks those rules they get infracted, when a mod breaks those rules they get infracted, publicly dragged through the mud and sometimes de-modded. I volunteer on this site because i want it to be a better place for everyone who wants to talk about Magic and such. I'm sure that's the same reason all moderators apply, they want this place to be the best it can be.
Everyone needs to take a step back and take a breath. We (the mods) made a mistake, and we are fixing it.
I don't want to staff a site devoid of moral heading or urgency. My comments being unbecoming of a staff is hilariously ineffectual an excuse for why this issue was glossed over in the excitement to remove the bold tag from my name.
I have a question. Why didn't you, as a WCT Mod, warn or infract Navy Joe instead of/combined with locking it?
The score appears to be:
-1 Staff member
-1 User (the guy who created the thread was banned)
0 repurcussions for trashing someone who is openly and seriously talking about shooting at people. I mean it's not like this sort of behavior on the internet has led to people who are mentally unstable going over the edge before. Oh wai..... I mean I don't know this part for sure but it certainly appears that way, I havn't seen any red text.
homies for life #broski
www.diestoremoval.com
A truly great petition
I am suprised about that as well, I thought we would of seen at least something being handed down.
An explination I could think of, is that there is talk about what the fallout of it should be and that the mods and admins don't want to do anything until they have a plan in place to ensure what they come up with is enforced and made 100% clear.
Idk to be honest....
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyNot only has there been no infraction apparently issued for this behavior, but no infraction was issued when the same dude made a thread decrying Kijin for his abhorrence at the issue on the way out.
This thread was locked until "further notice".
Well they decided to ban a member and de-staff another without any dialouge among the staff, so don't have high hopes. I just hope the noise made about this will force them to reconsider. It's kind of sad, actually, that the userbase has to fight tooth-and-nail about every issue. #priorities
I'm going to plagiarize myself for a second and post something I said elsewhere, if slightly amended to contain my vitriol:
Whether or not the staff is "currently discussing this," there's nothing to work on. The staff banned a guy to "protect him" and removed a member of staff for expressing moral outrage through the use of "bad words," and then immediately went on to shield or support arguments made by moral vacuums in the MTGS community. There is no excuse for that. The accomplished all of the things needed to be discussed quietly in the mod lounge and act out in careful consideration haphazard and without forethought, and are now discussing the pressing, immediate issues that plague the site slowly, quietly, in private, away from the people directly involved.
The staff's priorities are up their ass, as is their moral heading. As someone who literally does not give a second glance to "Internet matters," the anger and disappointment I feel for this community and those in charge of it is visceral and very real.
Buy from me on TCGPlayer::Twitter::Flickr
Change is hard to come by...
And about the banning, there is that precedent. A user was banned for the same type of thing before and I do believe that user returned as soon as they showed that they were recieving help.
Im honestly waiting to see what the staff has to say before I say anymore.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething Spicy@kijin - The issue the staff had was not your comments. In fact, I think we all agree that you were in the right. The issue was the condescending tone of voice and mockery of the people in a community you are supposed to represent. You might not see it that way but the report button did. I think some people know you well enough to read into your innuendo and intonation but at face value your comments were deemed inappropriate for a moderator.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
You have done wrong.
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Im sorry, but that isn't a good answer in my eyes. That seems like a way of saying that action is only being taken because of the reaction from it.... at least thats how I see it
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyI don't want to staff a site devoid of moral heading or urgency. My comments being unbecoming of a staff is hilariously ineffectual an excuse for why this issue was glossed over in the excitement to remove the bold tag from my name.
Buy from me on TCGPlayer::Twitter::Flickr
While you're here, is it correct to say that we are now allowed to call people assclown?
It would certainly appear that the staff jsut caters to who can cry/whine the loudest at this point. This is why Kijin was removed, this is why NavyJoe's thread stayed up to allow him to whine loudly, and this is why action is finally being taken way late on a reprehensible action.
Not reprimanding a poster that responded to a cry for help with disgust and condemnation is just ridiculous. And asking a respected moderator to step down for pointing out what a terrible response it was (granted, not in a very tactful way) feels like coddling the posters who are out of touch with reality.
tl;dr One post deserved an immediate response, while one deserved discussion, and the moderators switched the proper reactions for them. Hopefully they'll do better in the future.
Unfortunately all action taken now will be perceived by some as a reaction to this discussion. Honestly, I assumed that once the thread was closed and the OP was banned that Navy Joe had already been issued an infraction... because that is the obvious thing to do - to the point that I didn't even look.
@kpaca - Assclown? I suppose in the right context it's okay, but I can't think of too many contexts outside NSFWlandia that it would be. But I am not the end all for decency.
Agreed.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Kpaca, im going to honestly say that while I rarely find common ground with you, that actually pretty much sums up how I'm seeing this.
All that should of happened in that thread, was that people should of said, and only said: Go see a doctor.
People didnt and now it seems like they are hurt that someone came in and told them how asinine (There is another few words I'd like to say, but I want to be able to use the speakeasy before x-mas) they were acting. People got hurt and reported him. I will agree that his way of saying it did come off mockingly at first. But as I reread it more, Kijin seemed more and more in the right in saying that.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyYou will have to find that explanation from someone else. I don't know. I really don't and feel like it was a mistake. It is something that needs to be addressed.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
What does it matter to you? The only thing I see it mattering to you is the fact of being able to gloat and/or start more problems.
Please stop trolling, you've already shown your moral wallet empty.
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As someone who respects Kijin for the work he's done to improve this site, i'm sad to see him burn out like this. I'm sure he understands, as his opening post says, that this is not something isolated to this incident. He understands this, and i hope that if he ever wants to return, he'll show an improved demeanor. He's been a great moderator for a long time.
I know that every user has their own grand vision of what salve is, but the main thing salve is, is a place for everyone to come post about magic without fear of trolling/flaming and other behavior that scars the internet. That means our userbase is vast. That means your gonna hate someone's posting style or arrogance or whatever. Whatever the reason people come here, the rules we have are meant to make people feel welcome and safe within those rules. When a user breaks those rules they get infracted, when a mod breaks those rules they get infracted, publicly dragged through the mud and sometimes de-modded. I volunteer on this site because i want it to be a better place for everyone who wants to talk about Magic and such. I'm sure that's the same reason all moderators apply, they want this place to be the best it can be.
Everyone needs to take a step back and take a breath. We (the mods) made a mistake, and we are fixing it.
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
What do I have to gloat about? MTGS isn't exactly in the best situation right now I'm not sure where you're coming from.
I have a question. Why didn't you, as a WCT Mod, warn or infract Navy Joe instead of/combined with locking it?
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