Not only that, but I made MULTIPLE report posts in that thread for users offering diagnostic and antagonistic advice to the user, which I have to assume were ignored as they were not apparent until this discussion began.
I cut the quote down to just this sentence because I don't want to try to address anything directed at someone else. I just wanted to again give a "from the front line" perspective and say that I read every report you sent (three total), but I didn't respond to any of them with action because of my misinterpretation of Sene's comment (i.e. my explanation in post #70).
Your only concern when I approached was that a user in another thread get an infraction for implying another user was gay, now suddenly you have all this concern for *this* issue?
I don't buy it, where was your concern for this issue yesterday?
Kijin - I have to say I am sorry to see you have sore feelings towards the staff. We are all trying to handle the issue best we can. There were some things that could have been handled better but it is always easy to look back and learn from mistakes.
As for the response time of our moderators and staff... the forums are vast and we only have so many staff members covering each area. Staff responded to the situation and attempted to handle it in a timely manor. You have to remember that we volunteer to assist the page and sometimes things need to be discussed as to how to be handled. You cant expect immediate results at all times to reported posts. It just isn't how things work out in reality. Sometimes things need to be discussed as for what action needs to take place and while we try to respond in a timely manor sometimes it cannot be immediate turn around on these reports.
The problem of moderation has been discussed and we apologize that it was mishandled. I dont know why you keep pushing this. We admit that we lost track of who was handling the matter. Sorry, hopefully next time we will handle it better.
I don't know why you are taking such a hostile stance on this matter. We have tried to be truthful to you and users here in this post but have been met with nothing but hostility.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Your only concern when I approached was that a user in another thread get an infraction for implying another user was gay, now suddenly you have all this concern for *this* issue?
I don't buy it, where was your concern for this issue yesterday?
I seem to have been removed from staff due to a tipping point that originated in a thread... I'm not sure if it's related to this topic, it being the thread that consists of the bulk of this discussion. It seems when I responded to that thread, I may have been a tad upset, possibly why I apologized for my outburst somewhere.
Now that I've thoroughly outlined that your strawman is completely unfounded and obvious and ignorant bait was in vain, can you please exit the staff gracefully?
The problem of moderation has been discussed and we apologize that it was mishandled. I dont know why you keep pushing this. We admit that we lost track of who was handling the matter. Sorry, hopefully next time we will handle it better.
Does someone have to die before someone takes responsibility for failing to address baiting someone threatening acts of violence against their school? Like, seriously, priorities? Morality? Anything?
I don't know why you are taking such a hostile stance on this matter. We have tried to be truthful to you and users here in this post but have been met with nothing but hostility.
I'm being hostle because it took 3 pages of this thread, and an additional two in a previously closed thread before there was even any indication that this was even being seen as an issue.
What happened to that accountability? What happened to literally anything? When was this centered on my being destaffed? My complaint is that my position on the forums was seen as a bigger threat to this community than a person antagonizing a mentally unsound individual, which is wrong on so many levels. That I'm being antagonized -- by an administrator, no less -- for what is now cited outrage (because I guess now things that are objectively morally outrageous now require citation, I suppose) to that account is ludicrous. This is a very shameful display.
Your only concern when I approached was that a user in another thread get an infraction for implying another user was gay, now suddenly you have all this concern for *this* issue?
I don't buy it, where was your concern for this issue yesterday?
Really? This is your response to the accusation that you have a misguided concept of what is really important to your duties as moderator? In case you haven't noticed, other users and mods think the way this was handled is entirely incorrect too. But all you do is attack Kijin, which seems to help his argument that you just asked him to step down because you wanted him to step down and thought this was your chance.
Removing a moderator because of complaints by users who deserve to be infracted for worse in the same thread is a ludicrous judgement call, and I don't want you to brush that off because you seem to have an issue with some of the users telling you so.
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I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
Kijin, in your opinion, should reaching out to the individual asking for help be a higher priority than punishing the user "baiting him", as you put it?
@Kij: I will say it again: where was your concern yesterday? When you were active in that thread? Where was your timeliness in bringing it to my attention, as a member of this staff involved directly in the discussion?
If there is a failure of the staff to address this appropriately, you're right there as part of that problem.
Its obvious that certain segments of the administration (and membership) wished Kijin to be demodded and just used this incident as an excuse to finally do it. It is abundantly clear that some of the staff of MTGS don't view each other as contemporaries or equals but as school yard rivals, kicking sand in each other's faces in a public forum rather than working things out in private.
If I were an admin I would have just warned Kijin and that would have been that. Mods and admins aren't above reproach. They're human before and after all else. This whole issue is indicative of a dissonance among staff and bodes ill for the future.
Its obvious that certain segments of the administration (and membership) wished Kijin to be demodded
I want it to be made very clear: I am not in this group. I have made every effort to keep Kijin on this staff, & have had many conversations with him to that end, well before I was an administrator.
When he was removed from staff previously, I was at the forefront of the movement to put him back on & to correct the process that allowed that to even happen.
Kijin, you keep saying that the staff had their priorities mixed up, but how do you think a flame infraction for NavyJoe would have helped? The administrators went directly to the source and dealt with lone gentleman and his problem in the only way they could. They even considered contacting the authorities, but deemed that unnecessary after they determined that lone gentleman wasn't an immediate threat to himself and others.
Somewhere along the way a flame infraction was forgotten, but I just don't understand how that could have possibly helped to save lives.
@Kij: I will say it again: where was your concern yesterday? When you were active in that thread? Where was your timeliness in bringing it to my attention, as a member of this staff involved directly in the discussion?
If there is a failure of the staff to address this appropriately, you're right there as part of that problem.
I was not contacted by NavyJoe, & my asking Kijin to resign had a lot more history behind it than any one incident.
I reported somewhere in the realm of 4-5 posts that weren't responded to for 5 hours. Apparently you "weren't available" at the time, according to your PM you sent me.
I also made posts in that thread that I was made aware were reported by other users (as per the discussion linked in my post). My response was immediate, visceral, loud, and pervasive. You were asleep, literally, at the wheel.
I did all I could do short of waking you up, and I'm just, apparently, a terrible mod -- you're supposed to be an administrator in charge of the larger site. What's your excuse?
Shameful display, mods are trolls, etc. Welcome to our world, Kijin.
I sympthasize with you, I really do. But you need to be the better person here and walk away. The staff and moderators will defend themselves with Ad Hominen attacks against you until the thread derails. The mods won't change their minds because of anything in this thread, and you seem to have accomplished your purpose here- raising awareness of a great injustice. You were a great mod and You are a great person.
There may be a few life lessons tucked in here, like polyps imbedded in rush limbaugh's colon, for all of us. It may be painful, but we can work though it as a community.
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"Wizards could put $100 bills in packs and people would complain about how they were folded."
I want it to be made very clear: I am not in this group. I have made every effort to keep Kijin on this staff, & have had many conversations with him to that end, well before I was an administrator.
When he was removed from staff previously, I was at the forefront of the movement to put him back on & to correct the process that allowed that to even happen.
I have some circumstantial evidence from staff, including former staff, to the contrary, and your response in this thread and via PM also suggests otherwise.
Everyone cool it off.
Things happen, communication is imperfect. Were there ways that this could have been handled better? Hells yes. The proper way to approach this is how to overcome the problems experienced here in the future.
I did all I could do short of waking you up, and I'm just, apparently, a terrible mod -- you're supposed to be an administrator in charge of the larger site. What's your excuse?
Kijin, people sleep. I can't believe you're hinging an argument on that. You're mad, I get that, but there is no reason to stoop to irrational mudslinging.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
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ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
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Kijin, I think you need to step back for a minute and calm down.
I believe this was handled in as timely a fashion as you could reasonably expect. You've aired your grievances about the timeliness of the action(s) taken, and your claimed order (I'm not privy to the various conversations involved, so IDK). Maybe it's time to take a deep breath and walk away for the moment.
Sally isn't going anywhere and neither is this thread. When you've gathered yourself you can post a well structured outlay on your position and everyone will be able to see exactly where you're coming from.
Kijin, you keep saying that the staff had their priorities mixed up, but how do you think a flame infraction for NavyJoe would have helped? The administrators went directly to the source and dealt with lone gentleman and his problem in the only way they could. They even considered contacting the authorities, but deemed that unnecessary after they determined that lone gentleman wasn't an immediate threat to himself and others.
Somewhere along the way a flame infraction was forgotten, but I just don't understand how that could have possibly helped to save lives.
This was the point I was trying to make. As soon as I closed the thread, I contacted lone gentleman personally to tell him why and to urge him to follow the sane advice in the thread (and ignore the crap advice). Simultaneously, Sene and the other senior staff were discussing discretionary banning and ways to contact the relevant authorities. When I presented updated information from lone gentleman, the latter was considered an unnecessary step.
Kijin, you keep lamenting the lapse in time for addressing NavyJoe's post. Do you think we should have done that before we reached out to lone gentleman? From my perspective we prioritized the actions that were most likely to have a positive impact on the situation. Obviously I'm open to dissenting opinions, though.
Kijin, you keep saying that the staff had their priorities mixed up, but how do you think a flame infraction for NavyJoe would have helped? The administrators went directly to the source and dealt with lone gentleman and his problem in the only way they could. They even considered contacting the authorities, but deemed that unnecessary after they determined that lone gentleman wasn't an immediate threat to himself and others.
Somewhere along the way a flame infraction was forgotten, but I just don't understand how that could have possibly helped to save lives.
How does removing me from staff help?
It sets precedent, just as infracting a malicious post against a user asking for help and in a very bad place does.
That NavyJoe took it upon himself to attack that user for his admitted shortcoming is a moral fault. That he was not reprimanded for it is a greater one. That his lack of reprimand for his attack was given lower priority to removing me from staff is a moral chasm.
The combination of these things were not fully apparent to me until a day after, when I was made aware nothing else had happened on the matter, and that I was essentially the only one punished in that objectively unsound discussion. I have not once complained about receiving a punishment. That's not my issue. The moral shortfall by the staff, only even acknowledged after a wealth of users have entered this thread to kick and scream, is what I take issue with.
Being asleep at the wheel? That's a mistake. Not properly prioritizing PMs? A mistake. Not infracting someone who needed an infraction? A mistake. Prioritizing destaffing someone over these things? A mistake. Doing this in light of potential tragedy and real-world life loss? That's way more than a mistake.
It sets precedent, just as infracting a malicious post against a user asking for help and in a very bad place does.
That NavyJoe took it upon himself to attack that user for his admitted shortcoming is a moral fault. That he was not reprimanded for it is a greater one. That his lack of reprimand for his attack was given lower priority to removing me from staff is a moral chasm.
The combination of these things were not fully apparent to me until a day after, when I was made aware nothing else had happened on the matter, and that I was essentially the only one punished in that objectively unsound discussion. I have not once complained about receiving a punishment. That's not my issue. The moral shortfall by the staff, only even acknowledged after a wealth of users have entered this thread to kick and scream, is what I take issue with.
Being asleep at the wheel? That's a mistake. Not properly prioritizing PMs? A mistake. Not infracting someone who needed an infraction? A mistake. Prioritizing destaffing someone over these things? A mistake. Doing this in light of potential tragedy and real-world life loss? That's way more than a mistake.
Would you agree that contacting lone gentleman directly should have taken priority over infracting NavyJoe?
I understand where you're coming from regarding the mixed up priorities, and I understand your points about the way your situation was handled. I obviously had no hand in that and have nothing to say about it. I'm just trying to make the point that at least some things were properly prioritized, i.e. contacting a user reaching out for help.
Everyone cool it off.
Things happen, communication is imperfect. Were there ways that this could have been handled better? Hells yes. The proper way to approach this is how to overcome the problems experienced here in the future.
Kijin, people sleep. I can't believe you're hinging an argument on that. You're mad, I get that, but there is no reason to stoop to irrational mudslinging.
EDIT: nathed by multiple posts.
I wasn't the one who requested I personally contact a sleeping person, rianalnn was. I don't know if you missed that, but if rianalnn's argument is "I didn't do enough" to make him aware of the situation, despite making myriad report posts on the issue, explaining my disgust at the thread to him in a PM, and then raising the issue again the next day when nothing had been done to the matter because apparently removing a [*b] tag from around my name was the bigger priority, then he was asleep during the event, and then followed it up with not doing anything until the following day. I don't know how you're calling any of this non-issue stuff into question on a moral dilemma.
It sets precedent, just as infracting a malicious post against a user asking for help and in a very bad place does.
That NavyJoe took it upon himself to attack that user for his admitted shortcoming is a moral fault. That he was not reprimanded for it is a greater one. That his lack of reprimand for his attack was given lower priority to removing me from staff is a moral chasm.
The combination of these things were not fully apparent to me until a day after, when I was made aware nothing else had happened on the matter, and that I was essentially the only one punished in that objectively unsound discussion. I have not once complained about receiving a punishment. That's not my issue. The moral shortfall by the staff, only even acknowledged after a wealth of users have entered this thread to kick and scream, is what I take issue with.
Being asleep at the wheel? That's a mistake. Not properly prioritizing PMs? A mistake. Not infracting someone who needed an infraction? A mistake. Prioritizing destaffing someone over these things? A mistake. Doing this in light of potential tragedy and real-world life loss? That's way more than a mistake.
Fair enough, I guess I just misunderstood your argument. Still, I don't think this is a matter of priorities, just a matter of miscommunication (as Sene and Viricide explained earlier). It was a mistake, no doubt, but given that the flame infraction wasn't necessarily an urgent thing I don't see anything particularly amoral about it all. Justice has now been done (NavyJoe has his infraction) and there are discussions started on how to prevent these problems in the future (both users flaming/bullying potentially unstable members AND miscommunication among the staff). Sincerely, thanks for bringing those shortcomings to our attention since they really were problems or oversights that needed to be addressed. Otherwise, it seems your dismissal was tangential to this whole mess.
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I don't buy it, where was your concern for this issue yesterday?
As for the response time of our moderators and staff... the forums are vast and we only have so many staff members covering each area. Staff responded to the situation and attempted to handle it in a timely manor. You have to remember that we volunteer to assist the page and sometimes things need to be discussed as to how to be handled. You cant expect immediate results at all times to reported posts. It just isn't how things work out in reality. Sometimes things need to be discussed as for what action needs to take place and while we try to respond in a timely manor sometimes it cannot be immediate turn around on these reports.
The problem of moderation has been discussed and we apologize that it was mishandled. I dont know why you keep pushing this. We admit that we lost track of who was handling the matter. Sorry, hopefully next time we will handle it better.
I don't know why you are taking such a hostile stance on this matter. We have tried to be truthful to you and users here in this post but have been met with nothing but hostility.
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I seem to have been removed from staff due to a tipping point that originated in a thread... I'm not sure if it's related to this topic, it being the thread that consists of the bulk of this discussion. It seems when I responded to that thread, I may have been a tad upset, possibly why I apologized for my outburst somewhere.
It could be I put my ire off the main forums so as to not further appear unprofessional, as I was angry enough to start swearing and eventually even angry enough to tweet about it.
Now that I've thoroughly outlined that your strawman is completely unfounded and obvious and ignorant bait was in vain, can you please exit the staff gracefully?
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Does someone have to die before someone takes responsibility for failing to address baiting someone threatening acts of violence against their school? Like, seriously, priorities? Morality? Anything?
I'm being hostle because it took 3 pages of this thread, and an additional two in a previously closed thread before there was even any indication that this was even being seen as an issue.
What happened to that accountability? What happened to literally anything? When was this centered on my being destaffed? My complaint is that my position on the forums was seen as a bigger threat to this community than a person antagonizing a mentally unsound individual, which is wrong on so many levels. That I'm being antagonized -- by an administrator, no less -- for what is now cited outrage (because I guess now things that are objectively morally outrageous now require citation, I suppose) to that account is ludicrous. This is a very shameful display.
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Removing a moderator because of complaints by users who deserve to be infracted for worse in the same thread is a ludicrous judgement call, and I don't want you to brush that off because you seem to have an issue with some of the users telling you so.
If there is a failure of the staff to address this appropriately, you're right there as part of that problem.
I was not contacted by NavyJoe, & my asking Kijin to resign had a lot more history behind it than any one incident.
If I were an admin I would have just warned Kijin and that would have been that. Mods and admins aren't above reproach. They're human before and after all else. This whole issue is indicative of a dissonance among staff and bodes ill for the future.
I want it to be made very clear: I am not in this group. I have made every effort to keep Kijin on this staff, & have had many conversations with him to that end, well before I was an administrator.
When he was removed from staff previously, I was at the forefront of the movement to put him back on & to correct the process that allowed that to even happen.
Somewhere along the way a flame infraction was forgotten, but I just don't understand how that could have possibly helped to save lives.
I reported somewhere in the realm of 4-5 posts that weren't responded to for 5 hours. Apparently you "weren't available" at the time, according to your PM you sent me.
I also made posts in that thread that I was made aware were reported by other users (as per the discussion linked in my post). My response was immediate, visceral, loud, and pervasive. You were asleep, literally, at the wheel.
I did all I could do short of waking you up, and I'm just, apparently, a terrible mod -- you're supposed to be an administrator in charge of the larger site. What's your excuse?
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I sympthasize with you, I really do. But you need to be the better person here and walk away. The staff and moderators will defend themselves with Ad Hominen attacks against you until the thread derails. The mods won't change their minds because of anything in this thread, and you seem to have accomplished your purpose here- raising awareness of a great injustice. You were a great mod and You are a great person.
There may be a few life lessons tucked in here, like polyps imbedded in rush limbaugh's colon, for all of us. It may be painful, but we can work though it as a community.
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Not a little Sheeple.
I have some circumstantial evidence from staff, including former staff, to the contrary, and your response in this thread and via PM also suggests otherwise.
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Things happen, communication is imperfect. Were there ways that this could have been handled better? Hells yes. The proper way to approach this is how to overcome the problems experienced here in the future.
Kijin, people sleep. I can't believe you're hinging an argument on that. You're mad, I get that, but there is no reason to stoop to irrational mudslinging.
EDIT: nathed by multiple posts.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
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Don't use the word Autism in a derogatory manner; infraction issued.
-Sene
I believe this was handled in as timely a fashion as you could reasonably expect. You've aired your grievances about the timeliness of the action(s) taken, and your claimed order (I'm not privy to the various conversations involved, so IDK). Maybe it's time to take a deep breath and walk away for the moment.
Sally isn't going anywhere and neither is this thread. When you've gathered yourself you can post a well structured outlay on your position and everyone will be able to see exactly where you're coming from.
This was the point I was trying to make. As soon as I closed the thread, I contacted lone gentleman personally to tell him why and to urge him to follow the sane advice in the thread (and ignore the crap advice). Simultaneously, Sene and the other senior staff were discussing discretionary banning and ways to contact the relevant authorities. When I presented updated information from lone gentleman, the latter was considered an unnecessary step.
Kijin, you keep lamenting the lapse in time for addressing NavyJoe's post. Do you think we should have done that before we reached out to lone gentleman? From my perspective we prioritized the actions that were most likely to have a positive impact on the situation. Obviously I'm open to dissenting opinions, though.
How many times?
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So I'll just continue to tend to the soil while the patricians partake in their wine and caviar.
How does removing me from staff help?
It sets precedent, just as infracting a malicious post against a user asking for help and in a very bad place does.
That NavyJoe took it upon himself to attack that user for his admitted shortcoming is a moral fault. That he was not reprimanded for it is a greater one. That his lack of reprimand for his attack was given lower priority to removing me from staff is a moral chasm.
The combination of these things were not fully apparent to me until a day after, when I was made aware nothing else had happened on the matter, and that I was essentially the only one punished in that objectively unsound discussion. I have not once complained about receiving a punishment. That's not my issue. The moral shortfall by the staff, only even acknowledged after a wealth of users have entered this thread to kick and scream, is what I take issue with.
Being asleep at the wheel? That's a mistake. Not properly prioritizing PMs? A mistake. Not infracting someone who needed an infraction? A mistake. Prioritizing destaffing someone over these things? A mistake. Doing this in light of potential tragedy and real-world life loss? That's way more than a mistake.
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Would you agree that contacting lone gentleman directly should have taken priority over infracting NavyJoe?
I understand where you're coming from regarding the mixed up priorities, and I understand your points about the way your situation was handled. I obviously had no hand in that and have nothing to say about it. I'm just trying to make the point that at least some things were properly prioritized, i.e. contacting a user reaching out for help.
I wasn't the one who requested I personally contact a sleeping person, rianalnn was. I don't know if you missed that, but if rianalnn's argument is "I didn't do enough" to make him aware of the situation, despite making myriad report posts on the issue, explaining my disgust at the thread to him in a PM, and then raising the issue again the next day when nothing had been done to the matter because apparently removing a [*b] tag from around my name was the bigger priority, then he was asleep during the event, and then followed it up with not doing anything until the following day. I don't know how you're calling any of this non-issue stuff into question on a moral dilemma.
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Fair enough, I guess I just misunderstood your argument. Still, I don't think this is a matter of priorities, just a matter of miscommunication (as Sene and Viricide explained earlier). It was a mistake, no doubt, but given that the flame infraction wasn't necessarily an urgent thing I don't see anything particularly amoral about it all. Justice has now been done (NavyJoe has his infraction) and there are discussions started on how to prevent these problems in the future (both users flaming/bullying potentially unstable members AND miscommunication among the staff). Sincerely, thanks for bringing those shortcomings to our attention since they really were problems or oversights that needed to be addressed. Otherwise, it seems your dismissal was tangential to this whole mess.