I can say that I personally was taken aback by this decision. I support it, but it is unexpected. I wonder how long it will take to reverse it this time?
EDIT: I can say that I am not surprised at N_S and madding once again bullying people in this thread that don't agree with them. It happened back in November, and it's happening again.
You'd have been better off taking the high road. I'm not persuaded that anyone's going off the deep end - deleting posts as an abuse of power? Voting someone out of a clan? Come on.
You're seeing the forest for the trees.
Using the capabilities trusted to staff by the site owner to covertly erase evidence harmful to that staff without accountability for that action is an abuse of power.
Using status as a senior member in a clan, presumably a group of e-friends, coupled with position of administrator of the site the clan is housed on to bring a significant segment of that clan against one of your clan mates because of an inter-personal conflict you have with that clan member is an abuse of power.
Chiding a group of forum posters for making fun of people behind their backs as "not fitting in with the direction of the site" while similarly harboring threads also not publicly visible where a group of [powerful] forum posters in one case only, in another case occasionally make fun of people behind there backs is an abuse of power.
To clarify, the above is a thread that gets a reasonable amount of posts in the 'mod/exmod only clubhouse' forum.
It exists to blow off steam, but that doesn't mean it is 'less bad' than anything in the gutter.
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I can say that I personally was taken aback by this decision. I support it, but it is unexpected. I wonder how long it will take to reverse it this time?
Honestly...I don't think I want it reversed. I think that there's no way it's going to get reversed anyway. At this point it's going to be like poking that feral dog. Yo may put the dog down in the long run, but that dog is going to damage you beyond repair. Maybe even for life.
The point of this retaliation is to point out that the Gutter may not actually be the most demeaning and damaging place on this site. But since it's being put out there for everyone to see, the threads in the mod area that are completely similar to this, only posted by those in charge here, is ok to continue to hide from the exact same timid little mice that have complained about the Gutter for years.
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"Talkin outta turn....That's a paddlin'. Starin' at my sandals....That's a paddlin'. Paddlin' the school canoe....You better believe that's a paddlin'!" --Jasper
I repeat: someone called you, from the implication of the post you made earlier, to your face, a furfag. Therefore, it is okay that the staff supports doing this among themselves behind the backs of users of this forum without any level of accountability for their actions while similarly holding a group of users in a similarly closed group accountable for those same-song actions. This, we are to believe, is acceptable behavior from people meant to be bastions of character that we should be following the examples of, and is in no way hypocritical, and it is my mistake for raising such an issue when clearly the two are completely different from one another.
So your end-game is what, to trade the entire gutter for a mod lounge thread that's not even heavily used? And maybe clean up the GRR thread?
This is how the staff views the situation:
"I complain to coworkers in the breakroom about terrible/stupid/rude customers. I do not go up to terrible/stupid/rude customers and ridicule them to their faces until they leave."
I don't see you being successful in changing their minds.
Azrael, let's call thngs by name. The thread's title is "The Official User X is a ****ing Idiot Thread". Make THAT public.
I have to say that the only reason I ever considered joining the Gutter was to see if there was a thread about me so that a) I could have a good laugh and b) learn a little more about how clownish this all really sounds.
Personally, I believe VERY STRONGLY that any member who was not part of the Gutter who has one of these threads about him/her should be privy to that thread when the Gutter is closed if they desire. It's good to know what people think of you, for the benefit of future dealings.
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Honestly...I don't think I want it reversed. I think that there's no way it's going to get reversed anyway. At this point it's going to be like poking that feral dog. Yo may put the dog down in the long run, but that dog is going to damage you beyond repair. Maybe even for life.
The point of this retaliation is to point out that the Gutter may not actually be the most demeaning and damaging place on this site. But since it's being put out there for everyone to see, the threads in the mod area that are completely similar to this, only posted by those in charge here, is ok to continue to hide from the exact same timid little mice that have complained about the Gutter for years.
Well, when I was vocal in the previous gutter thread it was because I believed hidden activity focusing on insulting users was bad. I think that it is bad as well if mods have something like this.
I have to say that the only reason I ever considered joining the Gutter was to see if there was a thread about me so that a) I could have a good laugh and b) learn a little more about how clownish this all really sounds.
Personally, I believe VERY STRONGLY that any member who was not part of the Gutter who has one of these threads about him/her should be privy to that thread when the Gutter is closed if they desire. It's good to know what people think of you, for the benefit of future dealings.
They aren't talking about a gutter thread.
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"I complain to coworkers in the breakroom about terrible/stupid/rude customers. I do not go up to terrible/stupid/rude customers and ridicule them to their faces until they leave."
I don't see you being successful in changing their minds.
Incorrect. That's how I view the situation, and I'm not staff. I was the one who posted that, not any of the mods. Their position could be the same as mine, or it could very well differ. I only want to ensure the staff isn't taken to task for something none of them said.
So your end-game is what, to trade the entire gutter for a mod lounge thread that's not even heavily used? And maybe clean up the GRR thread?
This is how the staff views the situation:
"I complain to coworkers in the breakroom about terrible/stupid/rude customers. I do not go up to terrible/stupid/rude customers and ridicule them to their faces until they leave."
I don't see you being successful in changing their minds.
No, see the joke goes like this:
The staff is supposed to be transparant and accountable for their actions, so they, out of the blue, decide that at some arbitrary point in time, the Gutter needs to be closed, but their stated reason is because it is a closed door area where people bully each other.
No transparency for this, even though there's a special forum section specifically for communicating with that section in place. No idea that this was a new direction or problem bubbling.
So, I walk into the bar, and I see some of my old friends from the old staff hangout I used to go to before I got kicked out not that long ago, and I'm like, "Hey, you guys hate closed door policies that house people talking **** about each other? What about that time you guys had two active threads dedicated to almost nothing but that?"
Well, the bar fell silent and no one laughed, but then I did because I thought it was funny how backwards and idiotic the thinking was where no one saw the humor.
Infractions and the like have never been employed in the Gutter, although for a time an active infraction would preclude a user from participating in the subforum.
So what was MandersHex's Use of Red Text in that Subforum?
First is the issue of bullying. The Gutter has an entrenched culture of attacking, hazing, and bullying new or unwelcome members. Although “what happens in the Gutter stays in the Gutter,” any member of Salvation is fair game for a roasting within, whether they are a member of the subforum or not. MTGSalvation as a community aims to support a culture of tolerance, and the hostile culture of the Gutter is in direct opposition to this goal. While this has been an ongoing concern of the staff, certain events of the past months have brought this to the fore. First was an incident discussed extensively here in Community Issues and in the Moderator Lounge, namely that we were slow to act when a potentially unstable member was getting verbally harassed. The staff considers this a very serious issue and we vowed to address it. As we worked to prevent a similar event from happening in the future, we became acutely aware of how closely tied cyberbullying has been to various suicides and school shootings. We then realized that the reality is that in most cases the repercussions of that negative culture will not be visible to us. We cannot not overlook the danger that the Gutter poses to people in real life. While there is no way to quantify the impact this has on a user, by allowing it a place to exist, the staff feel responsible for it.
This is A Joke because a member of the Gutter tried to get a User who needed help directed to Professional help instead of Random people on the Internet and was demoded for it.
Do you have any proof at all of the danger that the Gutter poses to people in real Life?
Are you going to ban Introduce Yourself and IRL issues now due to the damage in Real Life People could cause there?
At the same time, Gutter members at all levels have shown that they will not report fellow gutter members for suspension evasion
Because that's not our Job? How are we supposed to know if a Lurker is a Gutter Member or not?
and the like, while attacking whichever senior staff member is chosen to watch over the subforum.
Like R~?
This creates a situation contributing to staff burnout
I think the amount of Suck contaminates staff more.
and increased rule-breaking
Any proof or Rule-Breaking by the Gutter at all?
Any reason why you should the Majority by the Actions of the Few?
The staff is thus left in an uncomfortable position where we cannot properly monitor the forum without drawing extreme levels of hostility.
Define Extreme levels of Hostility.
The Gutter and its subforums will be archived, with read-only access granted via the NSFW group.
Are Gutter Members allowed to Start Threads in the NSFW group?
Incorrect. That's how I view the situation, and I'm not staff. I was the one who posted that, not any of the mods. Their position could be the same as mine, or it could very well differ. I only want to ensure the staff isn't taken to task for something none of them said.
I borrowed your quote, without boxing it or attributing it, because it more succinctly encapsulates the point of this paragraph from earlier.
The gutter has had a long history of talking about people behind their backs - and that's never been something the staff has been concerned about. They've applied the same standard to the gutter as themselves. But when that comes out into the open and you're actually trying to kick someone out of a section of a site by insulting them to their face, then no, there's some reasons to distinguish those two things as different.
Personally, I don't have much use for either of them, but the staff has been consistent in drawing that line between the two.
Quotations aside, it's hardly a leap of logic to attribute that stance to the staff. Visibility is the only rational distinction between behavior that's actively moderated outside the lounge, and what's tolerated within the lounge. Either it didn't occur to anyone that that behavior was akin to trolling aside from that, or the invisibility/privacy was supposed to make it ok.
Also the joke is that none of the staff would have even thought cyberbullying was anything more than a joke (rianalnn's words) were it not for me raising such a stink about it.
The punchline is the staff has some moral, ethical, and hypocrisy issues that it can't work out because it's becoming the same kind of groupthink it frequently harasses the Gutter for being.
This is what I got from my "friend" when I tried to amicably resolve the issue and concerns in our clan:
Quote from rianalnn »
Slag
Hey, good work guy. Keep it hard for your real friends, amiright?
This was after things began to settle back down to normal and kpaca had left the clan on his own with Talore to follow. Below is my response to him and his retort.
Quote from rianalnn"s pm response to below »
Re: Slag
bull**** I didn't do it with the democratic methods of the clan. guys bailed; all I did was call for a vote.
if calling me gay is constructive criticism, I got a bridge to sell ya.
Quote from jonnyjonski »
Look...friends aside...I have to have an unbiased opinion in these things and that;s what I tried to do. I think you handled this whole completely differently than I thought you would. You were completely inflexible on all counts. It was almost as if you were going to have your way whether people backed you up or not. I didn't agree with that because it goes against everything the clan stands for. That isn't something that I felt was fair by any account. I'm sorry if you didn't like the stance I had, but I think everyone needed to know all aspects of the crap that went down. You used you power to keep that information from everyone, another thing I don't approve of.
I like you Brian. I think you are an incredible good person and an amazing parent and husband. I think you are a great clan mate and I know you would be there for the people you care about...but you used you power to sway things into your favor and I don't think that was right. On top of it all, you just waved your hand at everything others were trying to say, as if you couldn't be bothered with any of their petty opinions....and that is wrong.
Listen...you got your way. The problem is you didn't do it in the democratic method our clan stands for and that is an issue with me. You only heard those that followed your word without question and that isn't right. kpaca is gone....his follower, Talore, left along with CK. teefo is still around, but I think he was improperly called out looking back.
If that all makes me a slag...so be it.
Just examples is all I'm providing. That's all. Please excuse the typos...I was writing in the heat of the moment.
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"Talkin outta turn....That's a paddlin'. Starin' at my sandals....That's a paddlin'. Paddlin' the school canoe....You better believe that's a paddlin'!" --Jasper
I borrowed your quote, without boxing it or attributing it, because it more succinctly encapsulates the point of this paragraph from earlier. Quotations aside, it's hardly a leap of logic to attribute that stance to the staff.
Alright. I just don't want anything I said used against the staff when my attitude may not be theirs. As I said, they could agree, but I'm not here to speak for them.
Oh come on. Are we really having this close-the-gutter power struggle yet again?
Can we please just maintain the fracturing community as-is without drama?
The Gutter doesn't cause drama.
The Administrators and Moderators that go on some vengeful crusade every so often against the Gutter causes drama.
This is complete bull**** and I am sick and tired of every time I come to check out this site, there's some moral crusader on a power trip that decides to stir up drama.
The MTGSalvation admins/mods need to stop stirring up this drama.
Problem being, they keep missing big picture issues and instead hone in on scapegoats for 'problems'.
I'm not sure what sort of precedent there is for that, nor am I inclined to explore it since it's not really the point of this thread. But I would argue that the Gutter, in this case, actually is emblematic of the problem. Certainly not the cause, nor the only source, but if the administration wants to reduce that sort of behavior, the Gutter is the logical place to start.
"MTGSalvation as a community aims to support a culture of tolerance"
*shudder*
I don't see anything particularly wrong with that. It's idealistic, but certainly noble. It's an ideological extension of how things have always tried to be around here. I mean, we never banned any of the ****ty posters in the 'Mill for being ****ty, as long as they followed the rules they were tolerated.
Then why does it seem like transperancy that we were promised is still very lacking? Is a lack of said transperancy best for this site? I see no reason why this would be the case...
This means that the ones who decide this aren't doing whats best for the site and thus, going against what being a mod is about.
The gutter to me always seemed like a foil to mods who lose track of what being a mod entails.
I can say that I personally was taken aback by this decision. I support it, but it is unexpected. I wonder how long it will take to reverse it this time?
EDIT: I can say that I am not surprised at N_S and madding once again bullying people in this thread that don't agree with them. It happened back in November, and it's happening again.
You're seeing the forest for the trees.
Using the capabilities trusted to staff by the site owner to covertly erase evidence harmful to that staff without accountability for that action is an abuse of power.
Using status as a senior member in a clan, presumably a group of e-friends, coupled with position of administrator of the site the clan is housed on to bring a significant segment of that clan against one of your clan mates because of an inter-personal conflict you have with that clan member is an abuse of power.
Chiding a group of forum posters for making fun of people behind their backs as "not fitting in with the direction of the site" while similarly harboring threads also not publicly visible where a group of [powerful] forum posters in one case only, in another case occasionally make fun of people behind there backs is an abuse of power.
Come on.
That's just because you're not in on the joke. It'd be a lot funnier, here, let me tell it again...
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To clarify, the above is a thread that gets a reasonable amount of posts in the 'mod/exmod only clubhouse' forum.
It exists to blow off steam, but that doesn't mean it is 'less bad' than anything in the gutter.
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It is the moderations job to ensure what is best for the site? Am I correct in that statement?
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyHonestly...I don't think I want it reversed. I think that there's no way it's going to get reversed anyway. At this point it's going to be like poking that feral dog. Yo may put the dog down in the long run, but that dog is going to damage you beyond repair. Maybe even for life.
The point of this retaliation is to point out that the Gutter may not actually be the most demeaning and damaging place on this site. But since it's being put out there for everyone to see, the threads in the mod area that are completely similar to this, only posted by those in charge here, is ok to continue to hide from the exact same timid little mice that have complained about the Gutter for years.
So your end-game is what, to trade the entire gutter for a mod lounge thread that's not even heavily used? And maybe clean up the GRR thread?
This is how the staff views the situation:
"I complain to coworkers in the breakroom about terrible/stupid/rude customers. I do not go up to terrible/stupid/rude customers and ridicule them to their faces until they leave."
I don't see you being successful in changing their minds.
Personally, I believe VERY STRONGLY that any member who was not part of the Gutter who has one of these threads about him/her should be privy to that thread when the Gutter is closed if they desire. It's good to know what people think of you, for the benefit of future dealings.
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And if I've offended you, I'm sorry, but maybe you need to be offended. But here's my apology and one more thing...
Well, when I was vocal in the previous gutter thread it was because I believed hidden activity focusing on insulting users was bad. I think that it is bad as well if mods have something like this.
They aren't talking about a gutter thread.
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Opening the gutter in general, or reopening it last year?
Incorrect. That's how I view the situation, and I'm not staff. I was the one who posted that, not any of the mods. Their position could be the same as mine, or it could very well differ. I only want to ensure the staff isn't taken to task for something none of them said.
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No, see the joke goes like this:
The staff is supposed to be transparant and accountable for their actions, so they, out of the blue, decide that at some arbitrary point in time, the Gutter needs to be closed, but their stated reason is because it is a closed door area where people bully each other.
No transparency for this, even though there's a special forum section specifically for communicating with that section in place. No idea that this was a new direction or problem bubbling.
So, I walk into the bar, and I see some of my old friends from the old staff hangout I used to go to before I got kicked out not that long ago, and I'm like, "Hey, you guys hate closed door policies that house people talking **** about each other? What about that time you guys had two active threads dedicated to almost nothing but that?"
Well, the bar fell silent and no one laughed, but then I did because I thought it was funny how backwards and idiotic the thinking was where no one saw the humor.
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So what was MandersHex's Use of Red Text in that Subforum?
This is A Joke because a member of the Gutter tried to get a User who needed help directed to Professional help instead of Random people on the Internet and was demoded for it.
Do you have any proof at all of the danger that the Gutter poses to people in real Life?
Are you going to ban Introduce Yourself and IRL issues now due to the damage in Real Life People could cause there?
Because that's not our Job? How are we supposed to know if a Lurker is a Gutter Member or not?
Like R~?
I think the amount of Suck contaminates staff more.
Any proof or Rule-Breaking by the Gutter at all?
Any reason why you should the Majority by the Actions of the Few?
Define Extreme levels of Hostility.
Are Gutter Members allowed to Start Threads in the NSFW group?
that's what you said last time.
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Opening the Gutter for public view now.
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Yes.
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Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
I borrowed your quote, without boxing it or attributing it, because it more succinctly encapsulates the point of this paragraph from earlier.
Quotations aside, it's hardly a leap of logic to attribute that stance to the staff. Visibility is the only rational distinction between behavior that's actively moderated outside the lounge, and what's tolerated within the lounge. Either it didn't occur to anyone that that behavior was akin to trolling aside from that, or the invisibility/privacy was supposed to make it ok.
The punchline is the staff has some moral, ethical, and hypocrisy issues that it can't work out because it's becoming the same kind of groupthink it frequently harasses the Gutter for being.
I don't own a drum kit, but you get the gist.
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This was after things began to settle back down to normal and kpaca had left the clan on his own with Talore to follow. Below is my response to him and his retort.
Just examples is all I'm providing. That's all. Please excuse the typos...I was writing in the heat of the moment.
Alright. I just don't want anything I said used against the staff when my attitude may not be theirs. As I said, they could agree, but I'm not here to speak for them.
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Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Problem being, they keep missing big picture issues and instead hone in on scapegoats for 'problems'.
"MTGSalvation as a community aims to support a culture of tolerance"
*shudder*
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Can we please just maintain the fracturing community as-is without drama?
The Gutter doesn't cause drama.
The Administrators and Moderators that go on some vengeful crusade every so often against the Gutter causes drama.
This is complete bull**** and I am sick and tired of every time I come to check out this site, there's some moral crusader on a power trip that decides to stir up drama.
The MTGSalvation admins/mods need to stop stirring up this drama.
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I'm not sure what sort of precedent there is for that, nor am I inclined to explore it since it's not really the point of this thread. But I would argue that the Gutter, in this case, actually is emblematic of the problem. Certainly not the cause, nor the only source, but if the administration wants to reduce that sort of behavior, the Gutter is the logical place to start.
I don't see anything particularly wrong with that. It's idealistic, but certainly noble. It's an ideological extension of how things have always tried to be around here. I mean, we never banned any of the ****ty posters in the 'Mill for being ****ty, as long as they followed the rules they were tolerated.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
Then why does it seem like transperancy that we were promised is still very lacking? Is a lack of said transperancy best for this site? I see no reason why this would be the case...
This means that the ones who decide this aren't doing whats best for the site and thus, going against what being a mod is about.
The gutter to me always seemed like a foil to mods who lose track of what being a mod entails.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething Spicy