I don't take these words lightly, but after long and careful thought my mind has been forcibly changed. I've been speaking privately to various contacts among the staff, and have repeatedly heard disturbing reports, undisclosed until now. Incidents that were highly inappropriate - disgusting from someone in a position of power. But because my experiences with Rianalnn have in most instances shown him to be someone who has a number of strong, redeeming qualities, I've been inclined to overlook them (I hoped) isolated incidents, and to defend him against a long series of charges, many of which were in fact overblown.
When I left the staff, I left with the hope that the record of reform, dialogue, transparency, and striving for change for the better that I built my administration upon always leave the door open a crack, if I ever decided I could justify a return despite the restraints of my real life schedule. I thought that if things ever got really bad again, like the old days, the door would still be open to my coming back to help fix things and right the ship. That we would never again have to worry about admins on MTGS running wild, and ignoring the userbase.
I was wrong. I am no longer welcome. Apparently, I am no longer reliable, due to a trumped-up charge.
To put it another way, Rianalnn has made it undeniably clear that he wants to avoid shifting the balance of power in the admin ranks out from under his control, and he is prepared to use the thinnest of pretexts to maintain his grip.
To the best of my ability, given the restraints of potential retaliation against key witnesses, I intend to make the case for Rianalnn's resignation.
Conduct Unbefitting a Leadership Position
Until I secure permission from those directly affected, or they volunteer the information themselves, this section of my post will be deliberately sparse on direct quotes. I have two specific examples on record, but I would be surprised if the abuses stopped at only two, given that I've barely scratched the surface of the members on staff. But given what I've already heard, I don't want to force any one who is afraid to face Rianalnn in a public confrontation into the open, where he could retaliate against them. I think bringing out the full truth is more important than that, but I'll leave that to their discretion.
A basic tenet of good leadership is that you lead by example, maintain civility and professionalism, and use compassion in dealing with your subordinates.
Rianalnn's record in dealing with subordinates is, by all reports, abysmal. I have reports that he has repeatedly flown into a rage and directed profanity at staff members who disagreed with him, or been insulting and dismissive. That tendency, though not the profanity, can be seen in many of his publicly viewable posts, and I intend to compile them, though it will take considerable time. Numerous staff members have either resigned or taken demotions as a result of an inability to stand the way that he has treated him. This from an administrator who has made a "family-friendly" environment a hallmark of his policies.
It goes beyond political incompetency. Rianalnn habitually denigrates others, while holding the premier leadership position in an organization that is supposed to be dedicated to serving the userbase.
Silver Sihhe: on why this is essential for effective leadership.
Twisting the Truth
I don't believe that Rian intentionally sets out to lie to others on a habitual basis. I think the problem is much worse than that. Rian is able to convince himself that the world is not as it is, but how he wishes it to be. Rian deceives himself, and because of that, pushes absolutely counter-factual ideas with absolute confidence and assurance.
Much ado has been made behind closed doors about the recent suspensions of Jonnyjonski, Kijin, and ( N_S ). Repeatedly, comments that were borderline infractable were painted in the harshest possible light. A comment about Rian's location was painted as a death threat. An analogy about the similarity between generalizations and racist thinking was construed as trolling. Posting an amusing AIM chat was construed as posting "on behalf of" a banned member.
Or take the example of his self-serving reconstruction of the previous gutter debacle:
Quote from Rianalnn »
I just want to draw attention the double-standard here. The prior administration didn't see fit to leave much, & in most cases, any paperwork about much of anything, & the office I walked in to was more or less abandoned.
*snip*
I feel you when you say that the deal with the last admins has gone sour, but I also can't agree to honour anything they set out, when they neither consulted anyone else on staff nor left much evidence for the process or intent.
Quote from Azrael »
My perspective on this decision is that the decision-making process (what you refer to as after-the-fact) was very well documented. And that was the case because it took place within CI and at regular moderator level, due to a staff-led revolt in the "leadership" thread I started at the time, which reached 5-6 pages in size, and also in the gutter closure discussion thread, of a similar size. That thread included numerous participants at the lower levels who were not so much consulted in creating this decision, as much as they were successfully attempting to forcibly ram this decision down admin's throat. Off the top of my head, the moderators attempting to reverse that course included myself, yourself, Nai, Nightarcher, Manders, Blinking Spirit, Clock King, Kijin, and at least four other moderators.
In sum, I feel that the previous administration's decision was very much a product of the entire staff, and the arguments used to produce that decision were exhaustively documented in not only CI but in two separate moderator lounge threads.
Quote from Rianalnn »
Despite all of us chiming in, there was still barely any administrative input.
For example, the day before the CI post, when told the admins were drafting 'something', I asked this in the GL; A day later, post CI announcment.
Quote from Azrael »
*nods* I recall, having reviewed the admin-level discussion at the time with considerable interest myself. But my argument is that that underscores the point.
This decision didn't originate with just admin. The idea that the gutterites should be treated as individuals was an idea that originated in that public CI thread, and was championed in the lounge by us underlings, and was subsequently adopted as a result of that public and staff pressure.
It wasn't just an admin fiat that they formulated internally. It was a hard-won consensus arrived at by a confluence of userbase pushing, staff revolt, and admin deference to the groundswell of outrage and activism.
And after all that effort by so many of us, staff, normal users, and gutter alike, that accord has been casually disregarded.
Or at least, we came awfully close.
Unilateral Decision-Making
Not long after Rianalnn was promoted to admin, he began pushing two separate policies on a unilateral basis. The creation of the speakeasy, and the punishment of "slurs" being used by staff within the gutter. Rianalnn was successfully overruled as to the latter, while the former has proven to be a worthwhile idea - but the example is useful as a demonstration of his mentality.
Rianalnn is a fan of getting his way. He is prepared to listen to others - but if he sees a chance to push his own agenda without running into serious opposition, he will seize it in an instant.
When I was on board, we had a healthy and friendly relationship - but I was able to hold him in check. And I encouraged other staff members to continue speaking their minds and act as a counterbalance, as I left. Instead, an exodus ensued. Kraj, who knew Rian far better than the rest of us, jumped ship as soon as I left.Then Madding. NS. Misclick. Gaea's Regent. CK. Kijin. One by one, the number of voices able to act as counterbalances dwindled, while other moderators were promoted up the chain - but not through public moderator apps. By private selection and recommendation.
And for the ultimate example of unilateral decision-making, one need look no further than the latest gutter debacle. No regular moderators were consulted - only the global and admin levels - few of whom have meaningfully taken stands against Rianalnn in the past. No users were consulted - not even the gutter. And the hard-fought decision of the previous admins, not more than six months old? Disregarded. Because the userbase's opinion doesn't ultimately matter much to Rian. Rian getting his own way matters to Rian.
Alternate view.
Political Problems
Beyond those problems, Rian's most obvious problem is failing to understand and empathize with people. He has repeatedly failed to engage in negotiations, except when forced to. His ear is deaf when it comes to diplomatic tone, and he would much prefer to write off those who disagree with him as irrational enemies, than to engage with them. I won't belabor the point here unless requested, as I don't believe that even Rian's consistent supporters would argue this point. Sufficed to say, this skill set is one of the essential abilities for an admin, and Rianalnn's lack of it has been all too evident in the current crisis.
Until several hours ago, I still believed that there was hope to change the balance of power on the site. I believed that although Rian had demonstrated a consistent series of problems, that he was a person who continually strived to better himself, and was prepared to listen to criticism, and who trusted me to work alongside him.
He knew my record. He was not the most ardent supporter of the reforms we pushed through, but he had been on my side, and he appreciated what we had been able to do for the site during that brief span of time. I did not anticipate any major hurdles to coming back on board and helping him navigate the current crisis.
It's been discussed a lot in other threads, but a dedicated thread for discussing a possible compromise has now been opened in the Mod Lounge. Whatever the results of this thread are, we will take them seriously.
Wouldn't it make more sense to discuss a compromise in a place where both sides can read/post?
That makes an awful lot of sense, to me.
Why exactly does this need to be private?
Ordinarily, a compromise isn't taken to mean one side mulling over their position in private and altering it without any dialogue between the two parties. Again, that's dictating terms, not negotiating.
I'd love to talk with you Az, but not as part of a roadshow.
Which lounge is private enough for your tastes?
PMs are fine.
I honestly believe you coming on staff at this point is only going to crush any credibility we have (left). This senior team is only just getting its traction. You swooping in to 'solve' something & then flying away again destroys any confidence that we might be competent adults, in the userbase, in the staff, in ourselves.
I don't think that's what you need to worry about. We both know that you care about this site just as much or more than me. The users can't always tell that by the way you interact with them, but I guess I'm enough of a ham that they pick up on that vibe from me.
The politics work out well for you. Giving people what they want brings them over to your side - simple enough. At the moment, the users seem to be pulled towards having someone that they have always trusted at the helm. If the staff concurs with that, you look reasonable, you score points, you seem to be on their side. Maybe someone that they can trust, after all. And when I continue to support you, in turn, my own credibility will give yours a boost. This should help restore confidence, not lose it.
Quote from Rian »
You have to know there is a lot more going on than what the CI thread can show.
I know. And from the sounds of it, it sounds like a royal, chaotic mess. I ought to be able to help stabilize things, but I'm largely crippled from the outside.
There are ways to make this go so much smoother than it is. Holding people at arm's length this way is alienating them, pure and simple. I gave the same advice to the past admin: if you show that you don't trust your userbase, your userbase is not going to trust you.
All this secrecy and refusal to engage is just killing you.
Quote from Rianalnn »
You have to understand how hard it is coming here & serving the community when there is a whole subforum dedicated to making my life miserable "oh it's just for fun" – I get that that reason is sketchy because of personal conflict of interest, but I will do anything reasonable within my power to see that no other user has the same experience on this website that I have been continually subjected to since I started trying to run go-between between the staff & the Gutter.
Your turn.
The gutter is way off in left field in terms of their depiction of you, clearly. But it's not that they're out to make their life miserable for no reason - part of the issue is that you haven't done anything to dispel the idea that you're their enemy.
When you talk to them, they can sense that you don't like them much. And that's getting reflected right back at you.
I've said my share of negative things about the gutter in this debate too, but throughout that, I've tried to emphasize that I care about them and their concerns. That they matter to me. And with nothing more complicated than that, and finding something that you feel you need to sincerely apologize for, you could easily disarm that hysterical mob on your helpdesk.
I know it's gotta be tough. But it doesn't need to be as tough as it is. Let me help you.
When Rian said he wanted to wait until after the Gutter Drama was resolved to have me back on board, in the back of my mind warning sirens began to wail. That it was a power play - a bid to drive home his own agenda and keep me from interfering. But I decided to continue taking him at his word - that he was truly concerned that my coming to the rescue would (even further) undermine confidence in the administration, already on the most tenuous of ground after the political mismanagement of the gutter announcement.
This evening, I raised the subject again as part of a lengthy AIM chat.
Azrael (12:37:52 AM): *shrugs
Azrael (12:37:55 AM): You might be surprised
*Rianaln's SN* (12:38:03 AM): I don't care to try at this point.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:38:17 AM): I've played the Help You game with Kijin & been burned, badly
*Rianaln's SN* (12:38:24 AM): N_S has far less reason to be civil to me
*Rianaln's SN* (12:38:58 AM): I mean, I appreciate where you're coming from
*Rianaln's SN* (12:39:20 AM): but I also feel like you're more idealistic than I can afford to be
*Rianaln's SN* (12:39:33 AM): I need to not burn out so Salve can benefit from the goodstuff ria does.
Azrael (12:39:40 AM): Mmm - I hear sentiments like that a lot
Azrael (12:39:53 AM): But I think an awful lot of people underrate exactly how pragmatic idealism is
Azrael (12:40:26 AM): A good dose of idealism can do a lot to smooth things over with people, and that makes dealing with them much easier
Azrael (12:40:40 AM): Something that I think our foreign policy wonks tend to forget, sometimes
Azrael (12:40:46 AM): in the USA
Azrael (12:40:59 AM): but that's a bit aside from the point
Azrael (12:41:34 AM): At any rate, I'm still happy to help out however I can
Azrael (12:41:57 AM): I've got a burning desire to see the inside of the lounge again, but I can also wait until you think the timing is right
*Rianaln's SN* (12:42:15 AM): I'll just be straight with you - you burned that bridge.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:42:23 AM): While I was the only person to voice it, in GRRR
*Rianaln's SN* (12:42:29 AM): nobody liked what happened there.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:43:04 AM): so while I think it's cool for you to continue to be a voice of reason for both parties
*Rianaln's SN* (12:43:27 AM): . . .
*Rianaln's SN* (12:43:45 AM): I don't know what to say without breaking confidence.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:44:00 AM): But, be just some user, be content with that
*Rianaln's SN* (12:44:06 AM): I guess is the easiest way to put it.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:44:35 AM): That said, of course time moves ever onward.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:44:56 AM): but again, I don't think anyone appreciates the trepidation at senior level
*Rianaln's SN* (12:45:15 AM): & what happened there was seen as a gross violation of trust
*Rianaln's SN* (12:45:24 AM): Not just by me, I said my peice.
Azrael (12:46:26 AM): First off, Rian, if I'd thought that I was violating anyone's trust, I obviously wouldn't have run off to the top thread that everyone's reading with the information
Azrael (12:46:58 AM): I don't understand how that can reasonably be interpreted as my violating anyone's trust
*Rianaln's SN* (12:47:22 AM): I get that you don't get it
Azrael (12:47:23 AM): Mod chat is not the same as the mod lounge, by a long shot
*Rianaln's SN* (12:47:30 AM): you made that clear
Azrael (12:47:47 AM): I did.
Azrael (12:48:02 AM): Well, you've made your move.
Azrael (12:48:27 AM): I assume you're not prepared to change your mind.
Azrael (12:48:33 AM): That stubbornness of yours.
Azrael (12:48:46 AM): But I hope you appreciate how stubborn I can be, as well
*Rianaln's SN* (12:49:12 AM): Again, it ain't just me Az
*Rianaln's SN* (12:49:18 AM): & if it was
*Rianaln's SN* (12:49:21 AM): I wouldn't fuss.
Azrael (12:49:25 AM): I'm aware of the composition of the global and admin lounge
Azrael (12:49:44 AM): And I think they largely take their cues from you
*Rianaln's SN* (12:50:04 AM): viper doesn't.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:50:12 AM): Sene did, but has grown a spine
*Rianaln's SN* (12:50:22 AM): Gals & I butt heads a fair bit.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:50:36 AM): I get the perception though.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:50:40 AM): I'm the loudmouth!
*Rianaln's SN* (12:51:29 AM): & I'm at peace with that, but I also know those guys will speak their mind
Azrael (12:51:56 AM): *nods
Azrael (12:53:06 AM): Well, I suppose it wouldn't for you to hear this from me here, first
Azrael (12:53:13 AM): hurt* for you
Azrael (12:53:37 AM): I'm not particularly enchanted with the direction the staff has been going since I left - I'm sure that's not entirely a surprise
Azrael (12:54:00 AM): I've heard a lot of talk from people who've had run-ins with you
Azrael (12:54:30 AM): It'd be a stretch to call it verbal abuse - but it's not the kind of language I'd expect from someone in a position of trust and authority to those working with them
Azrael (12:54:38 AM): I'm not happy about that
Azrael (12:54:51 AM): Then there's the political issues
Azrael (12:55:00 AM): Everyone agrees that could be going better
Azrael (12:55:28 AM): So I've been trying to stand aside, help things along, and trust that you'd be able to see your way to a good solution
Azrael (12:56:11 AM): But frankly, this business with GRR seems an awful lot like a power play to me
Azrael (12:56:25 AM): Just like this delaying my coming back on board until gutter-drama was resolved
Azrael (12:56:52 AM): I think the cases of so-called corruption the gutter's been making were trash
Azrael (12:57:06 AM): But I do think there are problems, that need to be addressed
Azrael (12:58:05 AM): And I expect that addressing them is going to be a long, grim, and protracted struggle at this point
Azrael (12:58:24 AM): But at the end of the day, I think the site will be the better for it
Azrael (12:58:57 AM): So that's where I stand. I wish I had something happier to say.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:59:07 AM): sorry, was skyping with my school lemme catch up
Azrael (1:00:12 AM): And idealism or no, I don't plan to pull any punches.
*Rianaln's SN* (1:00:18 AM): eh, w/e
*Rianaln's SN* (1:00:24 AM): Do what you gotta.
Azrael (1:00:40 AM): *nods
Azrael (1:00:43 AM): Regards, Rian
I will not be able to discuss the precise substance of the incident that Rian alludes to in this conversation, but there is no doubt in my mind that it is a pretext, pure and simple.
In brief, I posted in ex-mod chat, announcing that I was seeking to contact Hannes, to gauge his interest in selling the site. I had a few ideas about how to take it in a different direction. Rian then made a post.
Apparently, Rian did not intend for that post to be known to the public at this time- despite posting it in ex-mod chat, which is not exactly a secure location, to say the least.
Quote from Rianalnn »
************************** details not publicly available yet, sorry – trying to avoid speculation before we've had time to tl;dr in-depth.
Quote from Azrael »
*frown* That is some epic timing there.
At this point, I assumed that by the statement "details not publicly available yet, sorry", Rianalnn had witheld the details that he deemed to be too sensitive to release to the public. As an ex-mod, I do NOT have access to mod-lounge level information. Accordingly, I did not assume that Rian had breached mod lounge confidentiality in sharing his information with me.
As a result, I made a post sharing the limited information that I had in another thread.
Then:
Quote from Rianalnn »
I can't believe you immediately went to TBGTE with that information.
Rian, I generally don't assume that as an ordinary user I'm being fed information that I should not be sharing with others, in ex-mod chat.
To the extent you were trying to avoid speculation, I assumed you'd adequately redacted the details already for posting in an area that is not staff-only.
Quote from Rian »
Or, if I wanted the general Salve populace to know, I would have made a CI thread?
Other times information is premature to release. Because you don't know if it's important or worth the time to update people until you know more. So you don't bother to post it except to people who actually care about it.
#2 seemed like the obvious classification given that I don't actually have any special clearances to know anything more than anyone else just this moment, but you were still telling me.
In short, Rian, and possibly other undisclosed staff members, believe that my unwittingly reposting information that Rian inappropriately leaked to me is grounds for denying my request to reapply to the staff.
I can only conceive of a few ways of interpreting this. The most charitable is that Rianalnn is so determined to cling to his grip that he is willing to seize any pretext to maintain the current balance of power.
I feel that there are no feasible diplomatic options or solutions short of a direct and succinct statement of the problem. The only way that I see to move forward and reestablish accountability to the userbase is to proceed with a call for a vote of no confidence in Rianalnn's leadership.
I don't want to denigrate the many wonderful things that Rianalnn has accomplished for the site. The time that he has spent. The dedication he has put towards it. Rianalnn has many gifts, which he has dedicated to the site for many years. Nevertheless, Rianalnn is not suited for the position that he has been given, and if he is allowed to remain, the staff will continue to degenerate and the userbase will suffer as a result.
Rianalnn, for the good of the site, I believe you need to step down. Within the limits imposed by the forum rules, common decency, and my respect for your dedication to the site, I intend to push for that endgame with all the means at my disposal. The gloves are off.
At this point, it should be evident to a person with a minimum level of empathy that it's not doing any good to continue talking. That feelings have been hurt, and that it's time to back off, and allow Talore some space to cool off.
I made a jokey post & you used it as a platform to attack viper, now I need to shut up?
ooooookaaaaaaaaaaaay
And Rian still isn't finished - ignoring Talore's request to drop the topic, he continues to harp and bicker on the subject - he's unable to simply let it go with dignity.
Apparently two dismissive posts after being asked to drop the topic wasn't sufficient - he needed to post a third time, in a manner that is completely unprofessional for the supposed leader of this site speaking to one of his peers.
Example #2: Link to Manderhex's Post
There's plenty I can (and will) say in response to this, but first up, to Azrael and those who agree with him: how do you reach the conclusion that the senior staff are basically ria's yes men (to whatever extent)? This is the one part of this argument that I still simply don't understand, and I can't hope to attempt to refute it until I do.
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I agree with Azrael.
I've been on this site for a very long time, and I almost never post. I rarely ever pay much attention to anything that is happening here, because I have better things to do much of the time. However, this series of events has been noteworthy because it is the first time there has been this rate of staff attrition. It all seems to be connected to the second part of this which caught my eye. In all of my time here, there has never been this level of backlash against a single staff member's actions. The fact that so many of the people who are objecting to said actions are former staffers themselves suggests that this is much more serious than the periodic threads in CI complaining about a suspension or so forth.
A fundamental problem is that Rianalnn's actions have, at the very least, eliminated my ability to take what the administration of this site says at face value. The administration said that the gutter would not be closed unless something major happened. However, you yourself posted a thread stating that the gutter would be closed because of something that might happen. How then, am I or any other member of this forum, supposed to count on the adminstration to be honest in the future, when it could not be honest in the present?
Another issue is the professionalism that you claim you're trying to bring to the staff. I say claim, because it's not very professional for the administration to be motivated so much by the whims of one individual.
The administration went back on it's word, (which is unprofessional,) because Rianalnn didn't feel like he should have to honor what the previous administrators set forth (which is much, much worse.) It's a pity, because I actually took all of this talk of staff transparency and professionalism seriously, and I would like to see it actually practiced in the future.
As to why we think that the senior staff are Rianalnn's yes men: it seems that there is very little distinction between what Rianalnn wants and what the senior staff does. Rianalnn wanted the Gutter closed, and the reason he gave for wanting it closed absolutely did not hold water. In spite of this, the attempt to close the gutter went ahead.
Now I have a couple of questions for you, viperesque. First, Do you think that the decisions that are made by the administration you're currently a part of will hold up, now that there's precedent saying that the staff can say one thing and mean another?
Second, do you believe that there should be continuity of administration, with the current administration continuing the policies of the old administration in the absence of a good reason to do otherwise?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am petitioning for the removal of all other signature petitions. WoTC doesn't give a crap about them. Get over yourself and sig this to join the cause.
There's plenty I can (and will) say in response to this, but first up, to Azrael and those who agree with him: how do you reach the conclusion that the senior staff are basically ria's yes men (to whatever extent)? This is the one part of this argument that I still simply don't understand, and I can't hope to attempt to refute it until I do.
I feel that I don't have enough solid info to say whether or not the upper management (<broad term not to include everyone) is Ria's yes men or just a bunch of like minded individuals, but there is a trend of Ria's goals and ideas being pushed forward and I can point to several decisions and changes that seem to either come mostly from Ria or Ria is the one championing them and most fervently fighting for them.
To that end I do agree with the others that we need a changing of the guard. As a person who came into this discussion neutral I am surprised how much my view has shifted and aligned given what I've seen. But Az's post just confirms and strengthens what I've been seeing lately:
1. Unprofessional responses and interactions by the staff.
2. Wanting to hold discussion more for the sake of saying a discussion was being held then to actual create a decision.
3. The Globals and Admins not trusting the regular mods.
4. Mods leaving because of issues with other mods or admins.
5. Trampling upon the groundwork and goodwill previous staffs have created.
I will put out a better post when I am not so tired and can think more clearly, but I will conclude it with this: There are serious problems with the staff and this needs to not be.
There's plenty I can (and will) say in response to this, but first up, to Azrael and those who agree with him: how do you reach the conclusion that the senior staff are basically ria's yes men (to whatever extent)? This is the one part of this argument that I still simply don't understand, and I can't hope to attempt to refute it until I do.
Where did Az say that Senior Staff are basically ria's yes men? (to whatever extent.)
The administration said that the gutter would not be closed unless something major happened. However, you yourself posted a thread stating that the gutter would be closed because of something that might happen. How then, am I or any other member of this forum, supposed to count on the adminstration to be honest in the future, when it could not be honest in the present?
The situation (for the upper-level staff, at least) had changed. In broad terms, the administration will honor the policies of past administrations until such a time that they can justify subverting it. That's the way things have always been here, and it's only logical. As situations change, the staff adjusts policies to best match it. I don't feel that's dishonest.
I'm not sure how relevant it is but, barring some posts in the Gutter that I can no longer see, the CI thread exploding and N_S coming back really were coincidental.
He wasn't the instigator by any means of the CI thread exploding.
There's plenty I can (and will) say in response to this, but first up, to Azrael and those who agree with him: how do you reach the conclusion that the senior staff are basically ria's yes men (to whatever extent)? This is the one part of this argument that I still simply don't understand, and I can't hope to attempt to refute it until I do.
Obviously I can't speak for Az, but my reading was that his argument came from these two sentiments:
[...] Kraj, who knew Rian far better than the rest of us, jumped ship as soon as I left.Then Madding. NS. Misclick. Gaea's Regent. CK. Kijin. One by one, the number of voices able to act as counterbalances dwindled, while other moderators were promoted up the chain - but not through public moderator apps. By private selection and recommendation. [...]
...only the global and admin levels - few of whom have meaningfully taken stands against Rianalnn in the past...
As I understand it, his argument is that Group A left staff while Group B got promoted. Group A consisted mostly of members with documented instances of clashing with Rian, while Group B consisted mostly of members without such. From that he draws the conclusion that you referenced.
Az, if that's a misreading then by all means please correct me.
As an outside user looking in, the only people that have been vilified by Azraels Posts have been Azrael himself.
That exchange with Talore wasn't exactly inappropriate, considering that Ria was exactly spot on with the way Talore conducts himself in conversation (From my brief experience with him, at least.)
Azrael, I know you claim to have been unwitting in reposting sensitive information, but to then turn around and lambast the guy (Ria) who told you, because he shared it with a "regular" user, is childish. You are a previous Administrator, I'm sure he trusted you a ton more than the average user, so to play that card isn't fair in the least, and I can definitely see why he was upset with you.
I also find it childish that you come on here after he doesn't immediately return you to your previous position post-haste for, from what I gather of your guy's convo, extremely valid reasons. If you ever wanted to get back on staff, you did yourself a large disservice today, imo, as well.
I'm also sooooo tired of hearing/reading about how mod A or administrator was mean to mod b etc. We are all human, we all get angry sometimes. Upper management doesn't always see eye to eye, as it should be, and that should be kept between upper management. You don't let it fall into the general populace as some sort of childish pissing match. I don't personally like Ria, to be honest, but the thread makes me feel bad for the guy. Seems like a whole sub-forum of users have railed against him (Like I'm sure they have others) because they didn't see eye to eye.
The situation (for the upper-level staff, at least) had changed. In broad terms, the administration will honor the policies of past administrations until such a time that they can justify subverting it. That's the way things have always been here, and it's only logical. As situations change, the staff adjusts policies to best match it. I don't feel that's dishonest.
That's fine, if that had been how it went. I don't know if you have access to the relevant threads, because there are posts which state that the staff is trying to close the gutter because of what it was in the past. It was said in the gutter closure thread in CI that the rationale behind the gutter's closure was the prevention of cyberbullying. I'm not oppoised to preventing cuberbullying, but this isn't an example of that.
The gutter has looser rules regarding acceptable language than the rest of the forums do, which means that users need to have a thicker than typical skin to enjoy it there. If that was the only thing at issue here, I would think differently about closing the gutter. However, the fact that people have to ask to be let in to the gutter means that it can't be held up as an example of cyberbullying, because in cases of cyberbullying, people typically mind their own business and the bullies find them and harass them online. Members of the gutter don't go out and attack users outside of the gutter, which would be a closer approximation of cyberbullying.
The reason I say that it is dishonest of the staff to go back on their word, is because going back on your word is dishonest. You say one thing and do something else, which suggests that what you said is false. I also feel this weay because both of the reasons I've seen for closing the gutter are nonsense. All of the major developments on the cyberbullying front happened long enough ago that the current administration really can't claim to have gotten any new information that the administration of Yukora didn't have, which suggests that this rationale is a false pretense.
The other reason I've seen would require that I post quotes from the gutter-staff pegging forum, which is infractable. The gist of it is that Rianalnn feels like the gutter should be closed because he wants MTGSalvation to move past the reputation the gutter has. This doesn't hold much water for me either, because there's been no evidence shown that the gutter has an impact on what people think of MTGSalvation, and even if there was, that's not a very good reason to get rid of it.
@Blade332: if someone who has the kind of influence that an administrator has can't operate without their feelings getting in the way, they're not fit to be an administrator. As I've said before, part of professionalism is professional distance, which means that people who are in a position which demand professionalism can't really let their feelings color things. If Rianalnn felt slighted or upset and he lets that show itself in his work, he shouldn't be an administrator.
I am petitioning for the removal of all other signature petitions. WoTC doesn't give a crap about them. Get over yourself and sig this to join the cause.
Saying you aren't going to "go opinate" on this then saying that you could voice your opinion against Rianalnn demonstrates that you do indeed have an opinion. It's really not fair for you as a moderator to make the users read through that much subtext Votan.
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Saying you aren't going to "go opinate" on this then saying that you could voice your opinion against Rianalnn demonstrates that you do indeed have an opinion. It's really not fair for you as a moderator to make the users read through that much subtext Votan.
Don't be so hard on the guy, Yanni, I had to layer the subtext on pretty thickly when I was a mod too.
Excuse me blade but dismissing this as a "subforum"-related thing is not only inaccurate but plain stupid. Azrael is not a regular poster in the subforum you are referencing and he has posted Talore's exchange because I bet Talore already gave him clearance, unlike perhaps other people who are in the staff.
This is a real sitewide issue that has more to do with how rianalnn mistreats his volunteers than with a minority of users who post in "a subforum".
So since I am not a gutterite, was a previous Admin and was even in the same clan as rianaln for a long time , I think it is safe to say I hold neither a personal grudge against him nor do I have a gutter based agenda , nor do I not understand the inner workings of the site and how senior staff issues progress.
This is not about the gutter or any kind of vendetta (at least for me), this is about being unhappy with multiple decisions and actions taken across the site and a genuine belief that despite ria being a nice guy he is not suitable for the task of admin.
And that's fair, I should specify that I don't believe that only users of that sub-forum have issues with him.
However, as a person in power you have to make hard decisions for what you believe is right. That generally entails pissing more than a few people off, it's literally part of the job description.
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When they announced they'd close the gutter, you put in your statements about how they shouldn't. You then suggested they bring you back, so that you may save the gutter and handle it your way.
They opted not to, apparently and decided it wouldn't be necessary. You made it very clear in other threads, you want back on the staff to stop their plans to close the gutter. Plans they had already put in motion among the upper staff.
So now your really pissed off. This radiates throughout your post.
When you say things like "Ria wants to avoid power shifting" it really sounds like "They won't bring me on board and hand over the reigns so I can handle it my way."
And here, we have all this inappropriate behavior, examples and evidence against him. Lets see.
Oh, wow. AZ is not above turning right around and telling other people what was said in private convo. Which at the time he THOUGHT was between he and you. Then of course post the entire convo for MTGS. Like some kid on facebook once your not brought back. And theres nothing in that convo that makes me think "OMG what a corrupt dictator tyrant!" anyway!
I would like to see something that ACTUALLY hurts or affects MTGS outside of personal issues or these dramatic threads popping up.
Oh and Talore. Angry gutter supporter from previous thread. Surprise surprise. I'm sure hes completely unbiased and non argumentative like the other.... erm...
I'm sure there will be much correlation between the gutter thread, and this one - and maybe even the helpdesk thread. With the same people, same supporters and same commentary from people who drove that thread to so many pages, angry over the gutter. I'm sure those who don't align will be called out as uneducated and misinformed, and others will be PM'ed and told to shut up like before.
So really - back to motives.
Personal vendetta, AZ? Don't like the gutter talks or the notion your not brought back on a say so, placed in charge of handling it your way? So off with Ria's head, once again!
Or
For the "best interest of the community". Is it really? And does that inadvertently mean "keeping the gutter is best for the community"
That's fine, if that had been how it went. I don't know if you have access to the relevant threads, because there are posts which state that the staff is trying to close the gutter because of what it was in the past. It was said in the gutter closure thread in CI that the rationale behind the gutter's closure was the prevention of cyberbullying. I'm not oppoised to preventing cuberbullying, but this isn't an example of that.
The gutter has looser rules regarding acceptable language than the rest of the forums do, which means that users need to have a thicker than typical skin to enjoy it there. If that was the only thing at issue here, I would think differently about closing the gutter. However, the fact that people have to ask to be let in to the gutter means that it can't be held up as an example of cyberbullying, because in cases of cyberbullying, people typically mind their own business and the bullies find them and harass them online. Members of the gutter don't go out and attack users outside of the gutter, which would be a closer approximation of cyberbullying.
Yeah, I'm not going to get dragged into a debate on the Gutter. We just had a rather large thread about it - I wasn't really invested then and I care even less now. What the staff does with the Gutter and why isn't an issue for me, but I don't hold it against them that months ago the staff said they wouldn't do anything with the Gutter without major incident and now they are doing something but with no major incident to blame it on. Again, situations change and opinions evolve. Clearly some on the staff thought it best to do something despite it going back on what the announcement was months ago. I don't view that as dishonest, I'd rather the staff act when they think they should rather than be boxed into inaction by past policies.
The reason I say that it is dishonest of the staff to go back on their word, is because going back on your word is dishonest. You say one thing and do something else, which suggests that what you said is false.
I guess I'm just more of a realist that way. The staff could have honestly intended to uphold that promise (they did so for many months) but were ultimately faced with a change in situation that required they rethink that stance. That happens, and I wouldn't expect the staff to be restricted to past promises if things have changed for them. I've been put in that position many times before, those situations are more complex than "you broke a promise, I don't care why, you're dishonest".
The other reason I've seen would require that I post quotes from the gutter-staff pegging forum, which is infractable. The gist of it is that Rianalnn feels like the gutter should be closed because he wants MTGSalvation to move past the reputation the gutter has.
And? You may not like or agree with that, but he's in his right to hold that opinion and act on it if the rest of the administration agrees.
Hello, my name is Gaea's Regent and I was mistreated by rianalnn when I was on staff. I have called him a despot in the past because that is what he is to me. I can no longer quote things he said to me in the Mod Lounge, but I know for a fact that I'm not the only staff member current or past who feels this way.
I am sympathetic towards keeping the gutter open at this point (which seems to be related to the whole anti-Ria thing), but the current staff keeps coming on and defending him. If they continue to have some faith in him as a leader, then these arguments ring somewhat hollow to me. There has been a lot of staff turnover recently, but it seemed like a bunch of it began prior to Ria taking over. He may have made mistakes, but it doesn't seem like the accusations of tyranny or narcissism hold much water. He seems snarky and stubborn--I don't think he should be lynched for it.
Moreover, after reading Az's posts above, I feel like some of this is being blown out of proportion. The gutter thing was handled badly, and Az has been a consistent voice of reason. However, the above conversation seems to be about a difference of opinion as to whether or not you should return to staff. The corruption is, to my eyes, not apparent from the exchanges highlighted above.
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At first I thought Ria was just articulating himself very poorly and felt sorry with him, but (N_S) and jonnyjonski's dubious suspensions really sealed the deal here (I think Kijin's may have actually been deserved, but the timing was suspect).
I think Azrael is completely right. If there's a witch hunt, it's Ria who is the one carrying it out. The confidentiality agreement in the staff CoC is being blatantly used as a smokescreen to cast aspersions on users whose agenda is at odds with his, which is basically the kind of thing I was afraid the Gutter was doing (keep in mind I am not a fan of that community, so I don't believe this is a Gutter vs. Ria issue at all like some would be trying to frame it) but on a wider, more sinister scale.
It's easy to assert pressure or legitimize your claims when all you have to do is infer that there is support or evidence that can't be verified without breaking the site rules. Thank you for trying to break this down as best you can under the ridiculous restrictions that shroud sets in place, Az.
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@Blade332: if someone who has the kind of influence that an administrator has can't operate without their feelings getting in the way, they're not fit to be an administrator. As I've said before, part of professionalism is professional distance, which means that people who are in a position which demand professionalism can't really let their feelings color things. If Rianalnn felt slighted or upset and he lets that show itself in his work, he shouldn't be an administrator.
Ideally you'd be correct, but if you didn't have a passion, hence strong feelings, why would you ever take a position of power? We aren't robots. We can try and think as rationally and logically as possible, but at the end of the day emotion is always a factor.
I'm not sure in which ways his "anger" may have skewed policies toward MTGS, because that's really all that matters. I've seen MTGS become a better place, imo, in the past year. There's been more change in that time period than the previous 5 years I was here. (At least, as much as I can remember)
When you have subordinates, no matter how hard you try, you will have issues once in awhile, tempers may flare. That's unavoidable. However, to call for someone to resign because he didn't agree with you or made you mad, seems ridiculous.
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Hello, my name is Gaea's Regent and I was mistreated by rianalnn when I was on staff. I have called him a despot in the past because that is what he is to me. I can no longer quote things he said to me in the Mod Lounge, but I know for a fact that I'm not the only staff member current or past who feels this way.
Actually, I can't say that I was mistreated by rianalnn while on staff. In fact, we hardly ever spoke during my tenure, even though I considered it a great joy to get to know the rest of the staff. That was why it was so obvious that Ria's agenda was the one powering the decisions I felt were necessary to question; any one of those others I would have called friends, and who treated me in kind, would have gladly given me the information I sought if it hadn't been for someone they, well, feared. In short, while I never accused Ria of being a despot, I suffered the brunt of his despotism.
Of course, after I quit, I got PMs from Ria that turned accusatory, but that's a different matter.
@MikeyG: I'm curious now, as I don't think I encountered what you speak of during my time digging through the archives. What difficult decisions from previous administrations did you have to overturn while you were an administrator here? What unpopular initiatives did you undertake? From everything I've read of you, you were one of the most well-thought-of administrators this site has ever had, and I at least attributed that partly to your attitude of letting bygones be bygones, not making unecessary waves.
I guess I'm just more of a realist that way. The staff could have honestly intended to uphold that promise (they did so for many months) but were ultimately faced with a change in situation that required they rethink that stance. That happens, and I wouldn't expect the staff to be restricted to past promises if things have changed for them. I've been put in that position many times before, those situations are more complex than "you broke a promise, I don't care why, you're dishonest".
Nothing has happened, though, unless viperesque was lying about cyberbullying being the reason for the gutter to be closed. As I said, cyberbullying became an issue back in late 2010 and early 2011. there was a brief burst, maybe a few months worth, of increased focus on cyberbullying, but that has lergely passed. If this was motivated by cyberbullying, I have yet to see specific cases of cyberbullying related to the gutter, or new developments on that front of any kind cited by the staff supporing their case. Given the importance of staff accountability, this is suprising.
And? You may not like or agree with that, but he's in his right to hold that opinion and act on it if the rest of the administration agrees.
He's certainly in his right to hold that opinion, but the administration doesn't agree. Sene has spent a lot of time in the pegging chamber trying to work out the issues regarding the gutter, which wouldn't have happened if the admins agreed that the gutter gives this site a bad name.
Just out of curiosity, who do you include when you talk about the administration?
Ideally you'd be correct, but if you didn't have a passion, hence strong feelings, why would you ever take a position of power? We aren't robots. We can try and think as rationally and logically as possible, but at the end of the day emotion is always a factor.
I'm not sure in which ways his "anger" may have skewed policies toward MTGS, because that's really all that matters. I've seen MTGS become a better place, imo, in the past year. There's been more change in that time period than the previous 5 years I was here. (At least, as much as I can remember)
When you have subordinates, no matter how hard you try, you will have issues once in awhile, tempers may flare. That's unavoidable. However, to call for someone to resign because he didn't agree with you or made you mad, seems ridiculous.
I don't think he should necessarily resign. However, if you have subordinates, especially if you're at the highest level of an administration, you really have to be able to maintain a certain amount of professional distance from things. If he can't operate without his feelings getting in the way, I would question if him maintaining the level of responsibility he has is a good idea. I would, however, see if it was possible for him to either take a break if his temper gets the best of him or learn to keep his feelings seperate from his work as an admin, before I called for his resignation. I think that calling for his resignation should be a last resort, and I'm not sure that it is necessary at this point.
Keep in mind, however, that much of the objection to his administration comes from former staff members, who have access to information I don't have access to. the calls for him to resign might be justified, or they might not be. I can only speak based on the information I have access to.
I am petitioning for the removal of all other signature petitions. WoTC doesn't give a crap about them. Get over yourself and sig this to join the cause.
I'd like to make clear for the record that being an administrator, in and of itself, is not a proposition I find desirable. I stepped down from the staff of my own accord, after only a short period, because that simply isn't my priority. I could care less about the illusion of power. What I do want is for the site to run smoothly, and for the userbase to have confidence in its leadership, and for people to be treated with respect.
If I'm angry, I'm angry because I don't see that happening, and if I do nothing, I'm very concerned that that will continue. That this is only the beginning.
There's plenty I can (and will) say in response to this, but first up, to Azrael and those who agree with him: how do you reach the conclusion that the senior staff are basically ria's yes men (to whatever extent)? This is the one part of this argument that I still simply don't understand, and I can't hope to attempt to refute it until I do.
I don't think that's the exact situation we're in. I think you're each more than capable of breaking with Rianalnn's decisions, and forming your own judgments. I just haven't seen serious opposition happen very often, and according to my chat with Rian, he's taken on the role of setting the agenda and taking initiatives when posting levels at admin/global levels slack off.
I've been in a similar position before, and there is a great deal of power that comes from being the most active and aggressive administrator, and being the first to shape the course of most of the debates.
As to why there has been a lack of serious opposition, I don't know that I'm in a position to state that authoritatively. I certainly don't think the upper staff are mindless "yes men" or sycophants, that's very unrealistic. If I had to take a guess, sharing a number of similar perspectives, being somewhat like-minded, or preferring to avoid discord and conflict, are causes that seem like much more reasonable explanations. Or perhaps, like me, you've grown accustomed to concentrating on Rianalnn's redeeming characteristics, and trying to overlook his flaws.
EDIT @Harkius: I credited those decisions to Rianalnn because he has endorsed them. But I appreciate your concern for accuracy, and the point that Rianalnn clearly isn't acting unilaterally, in a vacuum. That certainly isn't the case. However, he is one of the key components of the site's three-man executive team, and these types of things don't happen on your watch without approval.
I don't take these words lightly, but after long and careful thought my mind has been forcibly changed. I've been speaking privately to various contacts among the staff, and have repeatedly heard disturbing reports, undisclosed until now. Incidents that were highly inappropriate - disgusting from someone in a position of power. But because my experiences with Rianalnn have in most instances shown him to be someone who has a number of strong, redeeming qualities, I've been inclined to overlook them (I hoped) isolated incidents, and to defend him against a long series of charges, many of which were in fact overblown.
When I left the staff, I left with the hope that the record of reform, dialogue, transparency, and striving for change for the better that I built my administration upon always leave the door open a crack, if I ever decided I could justify a return despite the restraints of my real life schedule. I thought that if things ever got really bad again, like the old days, the door would still be open to my coming back to help fix things and right the ship. That we would never again have to worry about admins on MTGS running wild, and ignoring the userbase.
I was wrong. I am no longer welcome. Apparently, I am no longer reliable, due to a trumped-up charge.
To put it another way, Rianalnn has made it undeniably clear that he wants to avoid shifting the balance of power in the admin ranks out from under his control, and he is prepared to use the thinnest of pretexts to maintain his grip.
To the best of my ability, given the restraints of potential retaliation against key witnesses, I intend to make the case for Rianalnn's resignation.
Conduct Unbefitting a Leadership Position
Until I secure permission from those directly affected, or they volunteer the information themselves, this section of my post will be deliberately sparse on direct quotes. I have two specific examples on record, but I would be surprised if the abuses stopped at only two, given that I've barely scratched the surface of the members on staff. But given what I've already heard, I don't want to force any one who is afraid to face Rianalnn in a public confrontation into the open, where he could retaliate against them. I think bringing out the full truth is more important than that, but I'll leave that to their discretion.
A basic tenet of good leadership is that you lead by example, maintain civility and professionalism, and use compassion in dealing with your subordinates.
Rianalnn's record in dealing with subordinates is, by all reports, abysmal. I have reports that he has repeatedly flown into a rage and directed profanity at staff members who disagreed with him, or been insulting and dismissive. That tendency, though not the profanity, can be seen in many of his publicly viewable posts, and I intend to compile them, though it will take considerable time. Numerous staff members have either resigned or taken demotions as a result of an inability to stand the way that he has treated him. This from an administrator who has made a "family-friendly" environment a hallmark of his policies.
It goes beyond political incompetency. Rianalnn habitually denigrates others, while holding the premier leadership position in an organization that is supposed to be dedicated to serving the userbase.
Silver Sihhe: on why this is essential for effective leadership.
Twisting the Truth
I don't believe that Rian intentionally sets out to lie to others on a habitual basis. I think the problem is much worse than that. Rian is able to convince himself that the world is not as it is, but how he wishes it to be. Rian deceives himself, and because of that, pushes absolutely counter-factual ideas with absolute confidence and assurance.
Much ado has been made behind closed doors about the recent suspensions of Jonnyjonski, Kijin, and ( N_S ). Repeatedly, comments that were borderline infractable were painted in the harshest possible light. A comment about Rian's location was painted as a death threat. An analogy about the similarity between generalizations and racist thinking was construed as trolling. Posting an amusing AIM chat was construed as posting "on behalf of" a banned member.
Or take the example of his self-serving reconstruction of the previous gutter debacle:
Unilateral Decision-Making
Not long after Rianalnn was promoted to admin, he began pushing two separate policies on a unilateral basis. The creation of the speakeasy, and the punishment of "slurs" being used by staff within the gutter. Rianalnn was successfully overruled as to the latter, while the former has proven to be a worthwhile idea - but the example is useful as a demonstration of his mentality.
Rianalnn is a fan of getting his way. He is prepared to listen to others - but if he sees a chance to push his own agenda without running into serious opposition, he will seize it in an instant.
When I was on board, we had a healthy and friendly relationship - but I was able to hold him in check. And I encouraged other staff members to continue speaking their minds and act as a counterbalance, as I left. Instead, an exodus ensued. Kraj, who knew Rian far better than the rest of us, jumped ship as soon as I left.Then Madding. NS. Misclick. Gaea's Regent. CK. Kijin. One by one, the number of voices able to act as counterbalances dwindled, while other moderators were promoted up the chain - but not through public moderator apps. By private selection and recommendation.
And for the ultimate example of unilateral decision-making, one need look no further than the latest gutter debacle. No regular moderators were consulted - only the global and admin levels - few of whom have meaningfully taken stands against Rianalnn in the past. No users were consulted - not even the gutter. And the hard-fought decision of the previous admins, not more than six months old? Disregarded. Because the userbase's opinion doesn't ultimately matter much to Rian. Rian getting his own way matters to Rian.
Alternate view.
Political Problems
Beyond those problems, Rian's most obvious problem is failing to understand and empathize with people. He has repeatedly failed to engage in negotiations, except when forced to. His ear is deaf when it comes to diplomatic tone, and he would much prefer to write off those who disagree with him as irrational enemies, than to engage with them. I won't belabor the point here unless requested, as I don't believe that even Rian's consistent supporters would argue this point. Sufficed to say, this skill set is one of the essential abilities for an admin, and Rianalnn's lack of it has been all too evident in the current crisis.
Continuing in a second post.
Until several hours ago, I still believed that there was hope to change the balance of power on the site. I believed that although Rian had demonstrated a consistent series of problems, that he was a person who continually strived to better himself, and was prepared to listen to criticism, and who trusted me to work alongside him.
He knew my record. He was not the most ardent supporter of the reforms we pushed through, but he had been on my side, and he appreciated what we had been able to do for the site during that brief span of time. I did not anticipate any major hurdles to coming back on board and helping him navigate the current crisis.
I opened negotiations on 6-27.
When Rian said he wanted to wait until after the Gutter Drama was resolved to have me back on board, in the back of my mind warning sirens began to wail. That it was a power play - a bid to drive home his own agenda and keep me from interfering. But I decided to continue taking him at his word - that he was truly concerned that my coming to the rescue would (even further) undermine confidence in the administration, already on the most tenuous of ground after the political mismanagement of the gutter announcement.
This evening, I raised the subject again as part of a lengthy AIM chat.
Azrael (12:37:52 AM): *shrugs
Azrael (12:37:55 AM): You might be surprised
*Rianaln's SN* (12:38:03 AM): I don't care to try at this point.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:38:17 AM): I've played the Help You game with Kijin & been burned, badly
*Rianaln's SN* (12:38:24 AM): N_S has far less reason to be civil to me
*Rianaln's SN* (12:38:58 AM): I mean, I appreciate where you're coming from
*Rianaln's SN* (12:39:20 AM): but I also feel like you're more idealistic than I can afford to be
*Rianaln's SN* (12:39:33 AM): I need to not burn out so Salve can benefit from the goodstuff ria does.
Azrael (12:39:40 AM): Mmm - I hear sentiments like that a lot
Azrael (12:39:53 AM): But I think an awful lot of people underrate exactly how pragmatic idealism is
Azrael (12:40:26 AM): A good dose of idealism can do a lot to smooth things over with people, and that makes dealing with them much easier
Azrael (12:40:40 AM): Something that I think our foreign policy wonks tend to forget, sometimes
Azrael (12:40:46 AM): in the USA
Azrael (12:40:59 AM): but that's a bit aside from the point
Azrael (12:41:34 AM): At any rate, I'm still happy to help out however I can
Azrael (12:41:57 AM): I've got a burning desire to see the inside of the lounge again, but I can also wait until you think the timing is right
*Rianaln's SN* (12:42:15 AM): I'll just be straight with you - you burned that bridge.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:42:23 AM): While I was the only person to voice it, in GRRR
*Rianaln's SN* (12:42:29 AM): nobody liked what happened there.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:43:04 AM): so while I think it's cool for you to continue to be a voice of reason for both parties
*Rianaln's SN* (12:43:27 AM): . . .
*Rianaln's SN* (12:43:45 AM): I don't know what to say without breaking confidence.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:44:00 AM): But, be just some user, be content with that
*Rianaln's SN* (12:44:06 AM): I guess is the easiest way to put it.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:44:35 AM): That said, of course time moves ever onward.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:44:56 AM): but again, I don't think anyone appreciates the trepidation at senior level
*Rianaln's SN* (12:45:15 AM): & what happened there was seen as a gross violation of trust
*Rianaln's SN* (12:45:24 AM): Not just by me, I said my peice.
Azrael (12:46:26 AM): First off, Rian, if I'd thought that I was violating anyone's trust, I obviously wouldn't have run off to the top thread that everyone's reading with the information
Azrael (12:46:58 AM): I don't understand how that can reasonably be interpreted as my violating anyone's trust
*Rianaln's SN* (12:47:22 AM): I get that you don't get it
Azrael (12:47:23 AM): Mod chat is not the same as the mod lounge, by a long shot
*Rianaln's SN* (12:47:30 AM): you made that clear
Azrael (12:47:47 AM): I did.
Azrael (12:48:02 AM): Well, you've made your move.
Azrael (12:48:27 AM): I assume you're not prepared to change your mind.
Azrael (12:48:33 AM): That stubbornness of yours.
Azrael (12:48:46 AM): But I hope you appreciate how stubborn I can be, as well
*Rianaln's SN* (12:49:12 AM): Again, it ain't just me Az
*Rianaln's SN* (12:49:18 AM): & if it was
*Rianaln's SN* (12:49:21 AM): I wouldn't fuss.
Azrael (12:49:25 AM): I'm aware of the composition of the global and admin lounge
Azrael (12:49:44 AM): And I think they largely take their cues from you
*Rianaln's SN* (12:50:04 AM): viper doesn't.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:50:12 AM): Sene did, but has grown a spine
*Rianaln's SN* (12:50:22 AM): Gals & I butt heads a fair bit.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:50:36 AM): I get the perception though.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:50:40 AM): I'm the loudmouth!
*Rianaln's SN* (12:51:29 AM): & I'm at peace with that, but I also know those guys will speak their mind
Azrael (12:51:56 AM): *nods
Azrael (12:53:06 AM): Well, I suppose it wouldn't for you to hear this from me here, first
Azrael (12:53:13 AM): hurt* for you
Azrael (12:53:37 AM): I'm not particularly enchanted with the direction the staff has been going since I left - I'm sure that's not entirely a surprise
Azrael (12:54:00 AM): I've heard a lot of talk from people who've had run-ins with you
Azrael (12:54:30 AM): It'd be a stretch to call it verbal abuse - but it's not the kind of language I'd expect from someone in a position of trust and authority to those working with them
Azrael (12:54:38 AM): I'm not happy about that
Azrael (12:54:51 AM): Then there's the political issues
Azrael (12:55:00 AM): Everyone agrees that could be going better
Azrael (12:55:28 AM): So I've been trying to stand aside, help things along, and trust that you'd be able to see your way to a good solution
Azrael (12:56:11 AM): But frankly, this business with GRR seems an awful lot like a power play to me
Azrael (12:56:25 AM): Just like this delaying my coming back on board until gutter-drama was resolved
Azrael (12:56:52 AM): I think the cases of so-called corruption the gutter's been making were trash
Azrael (12:57:06 AM): But I do think there are problems, that need to be addressed
Azrael (12:58:05 AM): And I expect that addressing them is going to be a long, grim, and protracted struggle at this point
Azrael (12:58:24 AM): But at the end of the day, I think the site will be the better for it
Azrael (12:58:57 AM): So that's where I stand. I wish I had something happier to say.
*Rianaln's SN* (12:59:07 AM): sorry, was skyping with my school lemme catch up
Azrael (1:00:12 AM): And idealism or no, I don't plan to pull any punches.
*Rianaln's SN* (1:00:18 AM): eh, w/e
*Rianaln's SN* (1:00:24 AM): Do what you gotta.
Azrael (1:00:40 AM): *nods
Azrael (1:00:43 AM): Regards, Rian
I will not be able to discuss the precise substance of the incident that Rian alludes to in this conversation, but there is no doubt in my mind that it is a pretext, pure and simple.
In brief, I posted in ex-mod chat, announcing that I was seeking to contact Hannes, to gauge his interest in selling the site. I had a few ideas about how to take it in a different direction. Rian then made a post.
Apparently, Rian did not intend for that post to be known to the public at this time- despite posting it in ex-mod chat, which is not exactly a secure location, to say the least.
At this point, I assumed that by the statement "details not publicly available yet, sorry", Rianalnn had witheld the details that he deemed to be too sensitive to release to the public. As an ex-mod, I do NOT have access to mod-lounge level information. Accordingly, I did not assume that Rian had breached mod lounge confidentiality in sharing his information with me.
As a result, I made a post sharing the limited information that I had in another thread.
Then:
In short, Rian, and possibly other undisclosed staff members, believe that my unwittingly reposting information that Rian inappropriately leaked to me is grounds for denying my request to reapply to the staff.
I can only conceive of a few ways of interpreting this. The most charitable is that Rianalnn is so determined to cling to his grip that he is willing to seize any pretext to maintain the current balance of power.
I feel that there are no feasible diplomatic options or solutions short of a direct and succinct statement of the problem. The only way that I see to move forward and reestablish accountability to the userbase is to proceed with a call for a vote of no confidence in Rianalnn's leadership.
I don't want to denigrate the many wonderful things that Rianalnn has accomplished for the site. The time that he has spent. The dedication he has put towards it. Rianalnn has many gifts, which he has dedicated to the site for many years. Nevertheless, Rianalnn is not suited for the position that he has been given, and if he is allowed to remain, the staff will continue to degenerate and the userbase will suffer as a result.
Rianalnn, for the good of the site, I believe you need to step down. Within the limits imposed by the forum rules, common decency, and my respect for your dedication to the site, I intend to push for that endgame with all the means at my disposal. The gloves are off.
Up to this point, if anyone is probably being slightly impolite, it's probably Talore. But the tone changes abruptly here:
At this point, it should be evident to a person with a minimum level of empathy that it's not doing any good to continue talking. That feelings have been hurt, and that it's time to back off, and allow Talore some space to cool off.
Instead:
We have this. Which sounds as petulant as though it could have been written by someone the age of one of Rian's children.
And Rian still isn't finished - ignoring Talore's request to drop the topic, he continues to harp and bicker on the subject - he's unable to simply let it go with dignity.
Apparently two dismissive posts after being asked to drop the topic wasn't sufficient - he needed to post a third time, in a manner that is completely unprofessional for the supposed leader of this site speaking to one of his peers.
Example #2: Link to Manderhex's Post
Stardust's Take: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8715042&postcount=405
Viricide's Take: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8715185&postcount=412
Nai's Take: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8717816&postcount=535
Red Omega: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8718760&postcount=566
Sene: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8719192&postcount=591
I've been on this site for a very long time, and I almost never post. I rarely ever pay much attention to anything that is happening here, because I have better things to do much of the time. However, this series of events has been noteworthy because it is the first time there has been this rate of staff attrition. It all seems to be connected to the second part of this which caught my eye. In all of my time here, there has never been this level of backlash against a single staff member's actions. The fact that so many of the people who are objecting to said actions are former staffers themselves suggests that this is much more serious than the periodic threads in CI complaining about a suspension or so forth.
A fundamental problem is that Rianalnn's actions have, at the very least, eliminated my ability to take what the administration of this site says at face value. The administration said that the gutter would not be closed unless something major happened. However, you yourself posted a thread stating that the gutter would be closed because of something that might happen. How then, am I or any other member of this forum, supposed to count on the adminstration to be honest in the future, when it could not be honest in the present?
Another issue is the professionalism that you claim you're trying to bring to the staff. I say claim, because it's not very professional for the administration to be motivated so much by the whims of one individual.
The administration went back on it's word, (which is unprofessional,) because Rianalnn didn't feel like he should have to honor what the previous administrators set forth (which is much, much worse.) It's a pity, because I actually took all of this talk of staff transparency and professionalism seriously, and I would like to see it actually practiced in the future.
As to why we think that the senior staff are Rianalnn's yes men: it seems that there is very little distinction between what Rianalnn wants and what the senior staff does. Rianalnn wanted the Gutter closed, and the reason he gave for wanting it closed absolutely did not hold water. In spite of this, the attempt to close the gutter went ahead.
Now I have a couple of questions for you, viperesque. First, Do you think that the decisions that are made by the administration you're currently a part of will hold up, now that there's precedent saying that the staff can say one thing and mean another?
Second, do you believe that there should be continuity of administration, with the current administration continuing the policies of the old administration in the absence of a good reason to do otherwise?
I am petitioning for the removal of all other signature petitions. WoTC doesn't give a crap about them.
Get over yourself and sig this to join the cause.
I feel that I don't have enough solid info to say whether or not the upper management (<broad term not to include everyone) is Ria's yes men or just a bunch of like minded individuals, but there is a trend of Ria's goals and ideas being pushed forward and I can point to several decisions and changes that seem to either come mostly from Ria or Ria is the one championing them and most fervently fighting for them.
To that end I do agree with the others that we need a changing of the guard. As a person who came into this discussion neutral I am surprised how much my view has shifted and aligned given what I've seen. But Az's post just confirms and strengthens what I've been seeing lately:
1. Unprofessional responses and interactions by the staff.
2. Wanting to hold discussion more for the sake of saying a discussion was being held then to actual create a decision.
3. The Globals and Admins not trusting the regular mods.
4. Mods leaving because of issues with other mods or admins.
5. Trampling upon the groundwork and goodwill previous staffs have created.
I will put out a better post when I am not so tired and can think more clearly, but I will conclude it with this: There are serious problems with the staff and this needs to not be.
Where did Az say that Senior Staff are basically ria's yes men? (to whatever extent.)
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The situation (for the upper-level staff, at least) had changed. In broad terms, the administration will honor the policies of past administrations until such a time that they can justify subverting it. That's the way things have always been here, and it's only logical. As situations change, the staff adjusts policies to best match it. I don't feel that's dishonest.
Archatmos
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Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
He wasn't the instigator by any means of the CI thread exploding.
Obviously I can't speak for Az, but my reading was that his argument came from these two sentiments:
As I understand it, his argument is that Group A left staff while Group B got promoted. Group A consisted mostly of members with documented instances of clashing with Rian, while Group B consisted mostly of members without such. From that he draws the conclusion that you referenced.
Az, if that's a misreading then by all means please correct me.
That exchange with Talore wasn't exactly inappropriate, considering that Ria was exactly spot on with the way Talore conducts himself in conversation (From my brief experience with him, at least.)
Azrael, I know you claim to have been unwitting in reposting sensitive information, but to then turn around and lambast the guy (Ria) who told you, because he shared it with a "regular" user, is childish. You are a previous Administrator, I'm sure he trusted you a ton more than the average user, so to play that card isn't fair in the least, and I can definitely see why he was upset with you.
I also find it childish that you come on here after he doesn't immediately return you to your previous position post-haste for, from what I gather of your guy's convo, extremely valid reasons. If you ever wanted to get back on staff, you did yourself a large disservice today, imo, as well.
I'm also sooooo tired of hearing/reading about how mod A or administrator was mean to mod b etc. We are all human, we all get angry sometimes. Upper management doesn't always see eye to eye, as it should be, and that should be kept between upper management. You don't let it fall into the general populace as some sort of childish pissing match. I don't personally like Ria, to be honest, but the thread makes me feel bad for the guy. Seems like a whole sub-forum of users have railed against him (Like I'm sure they have others) because they didn't see eye to eye.
My DCI ELO Ratings - May they rest in peace :'(
That's fine, if that had been how it went. I don't know if you have access to the relevant threads, because there are posts which state that the staff is trying to close the gutter because of what it was in the past. It was said in the gutter closure thread in CI that the rationale behind the gutter's closure was the prevention of cyberbullying. I'm not oppoised to preventing cuberbullying, but this isn't an example of that.
The gutter has looser rules regarding acceptable language than the rest of the forums do, which means that users need to have a thicker than typical skin to enjoy it there. If that was the only thing at issue here, I would think differently about closing the gutter. However, the fact that people have to ask to be let in to the gutter means that it can't be held up as an example of cyberbullying, because in cases of cyberbullying, people typically mind their own business and the bullies find them and harass them online. Members of the gutter don't go out and attack users outside of the gutter, which would be a closer approximation of cyberbullying.
The reason I say that it is dishonest of the staff to go back on their word, is because going back on your word is dishonest. You say one thing and do something else, which suggests that what you said is false. I also feel this weay because both of the reasons I've seen for closing the gutter are nonsense. All of the major developments on the cyberbullying front happened long enough ago that the current administration really can't claim to have gotten any new information that the administration of Yukora didn't have, which suggests that this rationale is a false pretense.
The other reason I've seen would require that I post quotes from the gutter-staff pegging forum, which is infractable. The gist of it is that Rianalnn feels like the gutter should be closed because he wants MTGSalvation to move past the reputation the gutter has. This doesn't hold much water for me either, because there's been no evidence shown that the gutter has an impact on what people think of MTGSalvation, and even if there was, that's not a very good reason to get rid of it.
@Blade332: if someone who has the kind of influence that an administrator has can't operate without their feelings getting in the way, they're not fit to be an administrator. As I've said before, part of professionalism is professional distance, which means that people who are in a position which demand professionalism can't really let their feelings color things. If Rianalnn felt slighted or upset and he lets that show itself in his work, he shouldn't be an administrator.
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Get over yourself and sig this to join the cause.
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Don't be so hard on the guy, Yanni, I had to layer the subtext on pretty thickly when I was a mod too.
This is a real sitewide issue that has more to do with how rianalnn mistreats his volunteers than with a minority of users who post in "a subforum".
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And that's fair, I should specify that I don't believe that only users of that sub-forum have issues with him.
However, as a person in power you have to make hard decisions for what you believe is right. That generally entails pissing more than a few people off, it's literally part of the job description.
My DCI ELO Ratings - May they rest in peace :'(
When they announced they'd close the gutter, you put in your statements about how they shouldn't. You then suggested they bring you back, so that you may save the gutter and handle it your way.
They opted not to, apparently and decided it wouldn't be necessary. You made it very clear in other threads, you want back on the staff to stop their plans to close the gutter. Plans they had already put in motion among the upper staff.
So now your really pissed off. This radiates throughout your post.
When you say things like "Ria wants to avoid power shifting" it really sounds like "They won't bring me on board and hand over the reigns so I can handle it my way."
And here, we have all this inappropriate behavior, examples and evidence against him. Lets see.
Oh, wow. AZ is not above turning right around and telling other people what was said in private convo. Which at the time he THOUGHT was between he and you. Then of course post the entire convo for MTGS. Like some kid on facebook once your not brought back. And theres nothing in that convo that makes me think "OMG what a corrupt dictator tyrant!" anyway!
I would like to see something that ACTUALLY hurts or affects MTGS outside of personal issues or these dramatic threads popping up.
Oh and Talore. Angry gutter supporter from previous thread. Surprise surprise. I'm sure hes completely unbiased and non argumentative like the other.... erm...
I'm sure there will be much correlation between the gutter thread, and this one - and maybe even the helpdesk thread. With the same people, same supporters and same commentary from people who drove that thread to so many pages, angry over the gutter. I'm sure those who don't align will be called out as uneducated and misinformed, and others will be PM'ed and told to shut up like before.
So really - back to motives.
Personal vendetta, AZ? Don't like the gutter talks or the notion your not brought back on a say so, placed in charge of handling it your way? So off with Ria's head, once again!
Or
For the "best interest of the community". Is it really? And does that inadvertently mean "keeping the gutter is best for the community"
My Buying Thread
Yeah, I'm not going to get dragged into a debate on the Gutter. We just had a rather large thread about it - I wasn't really invested then and I care even less now. What the staff does with the Gutter and why isn't an issue for me, but I don't hold it against them that months ago the staff said they wouldn't do anything with the Gutter without major incident and now they are doing something but with no major incident to blame it on. Again, situations change and opinions evolve. Clearly some on the staff thought it best to do something despite it going back on what the announcement was months ago. I don't view that as dishonest, I'd rather the staff act when they think they should rather than be boxed into inaction by past policies.
I guess I'm just more of a realist that way. The staff could have honestly intended to uphold that promise (they did so for many months) but were ultimately faced with a change in situation that required they rethink that stance. That happens, and I wouldn't expect the staff to be restricted to past promises if things have changed for them. I've been put in that position many times before, those situations are more complex than "you broke a promise, I don't care why, you're dishonest".
And? You may not like or agree with that, but he's in his right to hold that opinion and act on it if the rest of the administration agrees.
Archatmos
Excellion
Fracture: Israfiel (WBR), Wujal (URG), Valedon (GUB), Amduat (BGW), Paladris (RWU)
Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
Quest for the Forsaken (Set Two of the Excellion Block)
Katingal: Plane of Chains
My YouTube Channel
I am sympathetic towards keeping the gutter open at this point (which seems to be related to the whole anti-Ria thing), but the current staff keeps coming on and defending him. If they continue to have some faith in him as a leader, then these arguments ring somewhat hollow to me. There has been a lot of staff turnover recently, but it seemed like a bunch of it began prior to Ria taking over. He may have made mistakes, but it doesn't seem like the accusations of tyranny or narcissism hold much water. He seems snarky and stubborn--I don't think he should be lynched for it.
Moreover, after reading Az's posts above, I feel like some of this is being blown out of proportion. The gutter thing was handled badly, and Az has been a consistent voice of reason. However, the above conversation seems to be about a difference of opinion as to whether or not you should return to staff. The corruption is, to my eyes, not apparent from the exchanges highlighted above.
I think Azrael is completely right. If there's a witch hunt, it's Ria who is the one carrying it out. The confidentiality agreement in the staff CoC is being blatantly used as a smokescreen to cast aspersions on users whose agenda is at odds with his, which is basically the kind of thing I was afraid the Gutter was doing (keep in mind I am not a fan of that community, so I don't believe this is a Gutter vs. Ria issue at all like some would be trying to frame it) but on a wider, more sinister scale.
It's easy to assert pressure or legitimize your claims when all you have to do is infer that there is support or evidence that can't be verified without breaking the site rules. Thank you for trying to break this down as best you can under the ridiculous restrictions that shroud sets in place, Az.
Mon.Jun.25.12:36.am <> They should make a forum called The Butter
Mon.Jun.25.12:36.am <> The only thing you're allowed to talk about is food
Ideally you'd be correct, but if you didn't have a passion, hence strong feelings, why would you ever take a position of power? We aren't robots. We can try and think as rationally and logically as possible, but at the end of the day emotion is always a factor.
I'm not sure in which ways his "anger" may have skewed policies toward MTGS, because that's really all that matters. I've seen MTGS become a better place, imo, in the past year. There's been more change in that time period than the previous 5 years I was here. (At least, as much as I can remember)
When you have subordinates, no matter how hard you try, you will have issues once in awhile, tempers may flare. That's unavoidable. However, to call for someone to resign because he didn't agree with you or made you mad, seems ridiculous.
My DCI ELO Ratings - May they rest in peace :'(
Actually, I can't say that I was mistreated by rianalnn while on staff. In fact, we hardly ever spoke during my tenure, even though I considered it a great joy to get to know the rest of the staff. That was why it was so obvious that Ria's agenda was the one powering the decisions I felt were necessary to question; any one of those others I would have called friends, and who treated me in kind, would have gladly given me the information I sought if it hadn't been for someone they, well, feared. In short, while I never accused Ria of being a despot, I suffered the brunt of his despotism.
Of course, after I quit, I got PMs from Ria that turned accusatory, but that's a different matter.
@MikeyG: I'm curious now, as I don't think I encountered what you speak of during my time digging through the archives. What difficult decisions from previous administrations did you have to overturn while you were an administrator here? What unpopular initiatives did you undertake? From everything I've read of you, you were one of the most well-thought-of administrators this site has ever had, and I at least attributed that partly to your attitude of letting bygones be bygones, not making unecessary waves.
Nothing has happened, though, unless viperesque was lying about cyberbullying being the reason for the gutter to be closed. As I said, cyberbullying became an issue back in late 2010 and early 2011. there was a brief burst, maybe a few months worth, of increased focus on cyberbullying, but that has lergely passed. If this was motivated by cyberbullying, I have yet to see specific cases of cyberbullying related to the gutter, or new developments on that front of any kind cited by the staff supporing their case. Given the importance of staff accountability, this is suprising.
He's certainly in his right to hold that opinion, but the administration doesn't agree. Sene has spent a lot of time in the pegging chamber trying to work out the issues regarding the gutter, which wouldn't have happened if the admins agreed that the gutter gives this site a bad name.
Just out of curiosity, who do you include when you talk about the administration?
I don't think he should necessarily resign. However, if you have subordinates, especially if you're at the highest level of an administration, you really have to be able to maintain a certain amount of professional distance from things. If he can't operate without his feelings getting in the way, I would question if him maintaining the level of responsibility he has is a good idea. I would, however, see if it was possible for him to either take a break if his temper gets the best of him or learn to keep his feelings seperate from his work as an admin, before I called for his resignation. I think that calling for his resignation should be a last resort, and I'm not sure that it is necessary at this point.
Keep in mind, however, that much of the objection to his administration comes from former staff members, who have access to information I don't have access to. the calls for him to resign might be justified, or they might not be. I can only speak based on the information I have access to.
I am petitioning for the removal of all other signature petitions. WoTC doesn't give a crap about them.
Get over yourself and sig this to join the cause.
If I'm angry, I'm angry because I don't see that happening, and if I do nothing, I'm very concerned that that will continue. That this is only the beginning.
I don't think that's the exact situation we're in. I think you're each more than capable of breaking with Rianalnn's decisions, and forming your own judgments. I just haven't seen serious opposition happen very often, and according to my chat with Rian, he's taken on the role of setting the agenda and taking initiatives when posting levels at admin/global levels slack off.
I've been in a similar position before, and there is a great deal of power that comes from being the most active and aggressive administrator, and being the first to shape the course of most of the debates.
As to why there has been a lack of serious opposition, I don't know that I'm in a position to state that authoritatively. I certainly don't think the upper staff are mindless "yes men" or sycophants, that's very unrealistic. If I had to take a guess, sharing a number of similar perspectives, being somewhat like-minded, or preferring to avoid discord and conflict, are causes that seem like much more reasonable explanations. Or perhaps, like me, you've grown accustomed to concentrating on Rianalnn's redeeming characteristics, and trying to overlook his flaws.
EDIT @Harkius: I credited those decisions to Rianalnn because he has endorsed them. But I appreciate your concern for accuracy, and the point that Rianalnn clearly isn't acting unilaterally, in a vacuum. That certainly isn't the case. However, he is one of the key components of the site's three-man executive team, and these types of things don't happen on your watch without approval.