You also have to realize that some of the members of the Gutter in this thread are new members who are more than likely being lumped in as a part of the witch hunt just because they joined when TBCITE thread started.
Manders and Azrael have a combined total of maybe 25 posts within the Gutter.
You can even see from the PM trail that Manders posted, a fair amount of the Gutter were less than fond of her.
It's rather difficult to quantify something like this in the way that you're trying to do.
Really, though. What does this kind of public thread do but make drama and cause people to be bitter? Wouldn't it make more sense to have taken this up with Hannes, see if he wanted to act, and then take it up in public?
I mean, the reason the S_S thing happened the way it did was because the owner wouldn't do things.
I've thumbs-up'd your post as I'm not sure what to say now; "so, it has come to this, eh?" or something like that?
I went through the thread and tallied every user along with whether or not they were affiliated with the gutter and whether or not they were posting against or in support of Ria. In many cases it was not clear so those went into the "no clear position" column.
I find it interesting that the gutter overwhelmingly is against Ria (no surprises there) but that non gutter members (including mods) overwhelmingly support Ria. Also, for a small community, gutter members represent over 50% of the posters in this thread.
Taking this into account, I don't think accusations of "witch hunt" are unfair at all.
Results are presented in graph form attached to this post.
I sort of take offence to your conclusions as well as your misuse/abuse of science; for starters, your sample is too small and not representative.
For the record, I could view the Gutter and my clear position is neither for nor against the person and/or the Gutter. I do, however, have a clouded understanding of the crux of the thread and the matter; say, is rianalnn's alleged abuse of administrator privileges linked to the matter of the Gutter, and how linked would that be? If it weren't for that, would perceived abuses be given due damns if you will?
Somehow related to this all, I suppose it goes without saying that having reading and/or posting privileges to the Gutter isn't the same as being a Gutterite, which isn't the same as a common viewpoint or whatever. Variation exists.
You also have to realize that some of the members of the Gutter in this thread are new members who are more than likely being lumped in as a part of the witch hunt just because they joined when TBCITE thread started.
Manders and Azrael have a combined total of maybe 25 posts within the Gutter.
You can even see from the PM trail that Manders posted, a fair amount of the Gutter were less than fond of her.
It's rather difficult to quantify something like this in the way that you're trying to do.
I fully agree; take it with a grain of salt. Even if you flip around some of the results though, it still gives a good rough idea of where the community stands. I was more interested in a general trend than being able to say with 95% certainty that the average member of X believes Y.
Again, I don't want to get embroiled in another debate about the Gutter. But I do believe attitudes shifted somewhat as cyberbullying finally became a forefront issue for MTGS. Sometimes a big event isn't necessary to change things, but a lot of very small ones that shift perceptions.
The issue of the I think it would help if the admins came forward with something that caused them to focus more on cyberbullying. We can talk back and forth about what cause they might have had, but that's information neither of us has access to.
Conjecture. The other staff members may or may not agree but it had become clear by this point that compromise was preferable to other actions. Even if they thought the Gutter has a bad rep, they're largely stuck in damage-control compromising mode now. Whatever the rest of the administration felt, clearly that's been tabled to promote discussion and compromise.
A fair point, and actually fairly consistent with what I've seen in the negotiations. Although it seemed like Nai and Sene were the senior staffers in favor of changing the gutter but preserving it, while Rianalnn and expiredrascals opposed it, there's been much less of the apporach initially used by Rianalnn and viperesque when this whole mess started.
When I talk of the administration, I'm talking broadly about the staff members involved in a decision. Not every staffer is involved in every decision. And decision making isn't always done at an administrator level. So I refer to the decision makers as the administration. It's essentially the staff, but not quite all of them all the time.
Understood. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Ugh, even doing this thread took forever to read everyone's post, determine their position and then check if they were part of the gutter. I think close to 30 members and the overwhelming nature of the trends (literally zero gutter members supporting Ria) are enough for now.
Unfortunately not as you appear to be setting this up as a gutter vs the world type of affair by highlighting them as a group.
To be fair to both sides would be you willing to break down your figures again, this time having 3 groups, current gutter members, members who have been gutter banned and those who fall into neither category.
Because as it stands you do appear to be ignoring a second group that have a vested interest in this issue.
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
Ugh, even doing this thread took forever to read everyone's post, determine their position and then check if they were part of the gutter. I think close to 30 members and the overwhelming nature of the trends (literally zero gutter members supporting Ria) are enough for now.
In a forum with 623 logged in users (not to mention the total number of active users), 30 people is really small in scale. Most people apathetic or supportive of Rianalnn wouldn't even bother to post here. On the flip side, people who are 'anti-Rianalnn' would be the ones that are vehemently posting here. Therefore, using statistics based on such threads is faulty due to the inherent selection bias.
It's still not colorless, and has no color. That's a paradox. So either you're a Zen master or an idiot, I'll assume the Zen master for sake of argument. This card will have no paradoxes because it has a clear paradox. Deep stuff man.
Since the issue of the "silent majority" is coming up I figure I'll comment as I do not post nearly ever outside of entertainment but read through most sections of the site. Previously I had just been "thanking" posts which I though argued my position well but if the thread is going to devolve into a numbers game I figure I'll speak up.
I personally think that at the very least there needs to be more administrators which would both lessen the burden on Ria and if chosen carefully would serve to reduce whatever perceived powers he has over the rest of the administration. If this is not possible then I would support Ria being removed from his administration position until such a time as further admins are added to staff.
Unfortunately not as you appear to be setting this up as a gutter vs the world type of affair by highlighting them as a group.
To be fair to both sides would be you willing to break down your figures again, this time having 3 groups, current gutter members, members who have been gutter banned and those who fall into neither category.
Because as it stands you do appear to be ignoring a second group that have a vested interest in this issue.
The only way being gutter banned could be relevant is if this issue was indeed a proxy for gutter members to witch hunt Ria, in which case gutter banned members would have a "vested interest" in speaking about against the gutter. So if you think the third group may be relevant, you must think that G_R may be mistaken when he says this is not a gutter issue.
Really guys, all I wanted was a springboard for discussion. It is not a coincidence that not one gutter member seems to support Ria, while an majority of other users do support him.
It is not a coincidence that not one gutter member seems to support Ria, while an majority of other users do support him.
This is a thread about Rianalnn, not the gutter. There was just a 2000+ post thread about the gutter, so kindly refrain from tainting this thread with any theories, grudges, etc that are not related to the topic at hand (Rianalnn's continual leadership failures).
LogicX: I think that last clause should read "while a majority of other posters in this thread do support him", since your wording implies that 50k users, the vast majority of which have not posted in this thread, support Ria.
For what it's worth, I'm in favor of moving the staff members whose people skills seem somewhat lacking onto a "site maintenance" team where they aren't involved in the day-to-day moderation of the site, just with ensuring it keeps running. (This would be Ria, 'rax, and probably someone from Europe just to ensure nearly 24-hour coverage.) This seems like it'd solve most of the current issues the site has.
The only way being gutter banned could be relevant is if this issue was indeed a proxy for gutter members to witch hunt Ria, in which case gutter banned members would have a "vested interest" in speaking about against the gutter. So if you think the third group may be relevant, you must think that G_R may be mistaken when he says this is not a gutter issue.
Really guys, all I wanted was a springboard for discussion. It is not a coincidence that not one gutter member seems to support Ria, while an majority of other users do support him.
OK counter question, if you don't want to make this a gutter vs the rest issue why bother looking into the affiliations of those who posted and correlated it with their opinions then present it in a graph format.
As it stands you are the one would quantified the opinions/affiliations
seemingly to discredit one side of the argument as a witch hunt. Its no ones fault but your own if it is now turning round and biting you.
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
Really guys, all I wanted was a springboard for discussion. It is not a coincidence that not one gutter member seems to support Ria, while an majority of other users do support him.
This tells me you were trying to derail the thread into a discussion about something else. There's already been a springboard for discussion, and it is ria's competence as an admin. Why derail that?
Your statistics are absolutely meaningless given the small sample size.
I could post a graph using past staff members as the variable and that would come out with about 87% being in favour of ria stepping down.
Just as meaningless as the gutter/non gutter split due to the ridiculously small sample pool.
If you think the trend that not one gutter member supports Ria is a coincidence, then I really don't know what to say to you.
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This is a thread about Rianalnn, not the gutter. There was just a 2000+ post thread about the gutter, so kindly refrain from tainting this thread with any theories, grudges, etc that are not related to the topic at hand (Rianalnn's continual leadership failures).
And it seems to me that this is another gutter led witch hunt, continued from the same thread you just mentioned.
Balg, Manders, Waffle King, Guardman and Kait don't all count as Non-Gutter members "against Ria"?
I don't know if it matters, but I am actually a gutter member, although I've only posted in the gutter twice.
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That graph and any conclusions drawn from it are meaningless. This should be obvious to anyone with the faintest hint of understanding with regard to statistics. I urge everyone to ignore it.
If you think the trend that not one gutter member supports Ria is a coincidence, then I really don't know what to say to you.
It's not, because if you look at the members of the Gutter, you'll see that all of them has been affected by ria either directly outside of the Gutter or as a member of the Gutter.
And it seems to me that this is another gutter led witch hunt, continued from the same thread you just mentioned.
As someone who has worked very closely with Azrael on many projects and has talked to him a lot outside of this site, I can say with 100% certainty he cannot be described as a Gutterite. That's a lifestyle choice. Azrael, like me, is a Mafiate.
Guys and Gals, if this thread gets derailed into another inevitably locked Gutter topic, Rianalnn will once again get off the hook and continue his flagrant abuses of his powers.
Keep that in mind before engaging posts that would subvert Azrael's OP
Let's ignore the Gutter issue for a moment; regardless of whether this is "gutter-led" or "gutter-caused," do the accusations against Ria have any merit?
Personally, I would say that a significant number of moderators calling on an Administrator to step down should be a cause for at least quiet contemplation of their reasons for saying so.
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Sing lustily and with good courage.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
Let's ignore the Gutter issue for a moment; regardless of whether this is "gutter-led" or "gutter-caused," do the accusations against Ria have any merit?
Personally, I would say that a significant number of moderators calling on an Administrator to step down should be a cause for at least quiet contemplation of their reasons for saying so.
And if Ria doesn't go voluntarily? What are the recourses? If Hannes is MIA, aren't there effectively none?
That graph and any conclusions drawn from it are meaningless. This should be obvious to anyone with the faintest hint of understanding with regard to statistics. I urge everyone to ignore it.
It's funny, if I had just said "wow, no gutter members support Ria" we could have actually talked about it. But because I actually went and tallied that none did, and then put it into graph form it can no longer be discussed outside of the context of "omg that's not scientific!"
The graph was simply a visual way to say "wow, no gutter members support Ria". You're a scientist. I'm studying to become a scientist. I have a publication in a scientific journal. I get that it isn't scientific. I know how data interpretation works.
So please stop treating me like I was trying to make a scientific argument. If I had written up that same post without the graph then we would actually be discussing my points (i.e. if I had just said "seems like the gutter continues to be against Ria while not many others are"). Please get over the fact that I made a graph and just take it for what it is.
Just to quickly address the idea that this is some kind of gutter uprising...I think anyone who has spent a significant amount of time with me knows how silly that is. I don't post in the gutter, except when some kind of staff-related gutter drama is going on. It's not my cup of tea, at all. I do think they have the right to enjoy their cup of tea in private, but my decision to move forward with this was formed purely by myself, based on my recent and past experiences as a user and as an administrator of this site.
No one can doubt that you have an intelligence that many on this site envy. Even the way you type/speak/w.e and string words together is a gift I wish I could do half as well. You keep a level head, and the only other time I have seen you show emotion period, was with the whole "Naka" issue in the Mafia Council Thread.
Which then begs the question: What do you hope to accomplish with this thread? What shocks me more about the thread is not the OP itself, but the writer. Surely, you recognized the potential negatives of what you showed, including justifying the fears of the higher-ups that there are leaks in the staff, much less, grossly violating the "What happens here, stays here" clause, so I am curious...[/COLOR]
Quote from Senori »
Really, though. What does this kind of public thread do but make drama and cause people to be bitter? Wouldn't it make more sense to have taken this up with Hannes, see if he wanted to act, and then take it up in public?
I mean, the reason the S_S thing happened the way it did was because the owner wouldn't do things.
First off, thank you for the kind comments, TCM.
For starters, I'd like to address the topic of leaks. No one is leaking mod lounge conversations to me. No one is quoting posts. I would not post mod lounge information here even if it were provided to me. The information I have received have been vague, general descriptions, not in violation of the mod lounge confidentiality policies. Intentionally, the conversations I've had with staff members past and present have been strictly limited to information that is permissible for them to share, and for me to post.
Ex-Mod chat, which I've had access to, has been a different story. If the line in the sand is now being drawn there, rather than at actual Mod Lounge posts discussing actual staff business, then I'm certain the discussion inside the staff lounge will be...lively. But whereas the there are some strong justifications for mod lounge posts to remain confidential in the interest of facilitating candid discussion between staff members, that rationale does not hold true in mod chat, and even the information I have divulged has been redacted in respect to the staff's legitimate privacy concerns.
If they happen to decide they're justified in laying the hammer down despite all that, I'll simply leave the judgment of their actions to the court of public opinion.
But there would be absolutely no justification for Rianalnn to try to use this as some kind of witch hunt among lower seniority staff members for feeding me information, or to justify any further clamp downs on security. It hasn't happened. To the extent that it's possible, I want to play this by the book, and I don't intend to ask staff members to compromise their principles. It's not easy to play it this way, and to work around the mod lounge's rules on confidentiality, but there seems to be more than enough information elsewhere to make the case - if staff members are willing to come forward while abiding by the mod lounge's gag order.
Now, moving on to the topic of what I expect this to accomplish. In short, I believe the staff and the userbase require a rallying cry if any change is to occur. This isn't the first time we've walked this path - and it's helped the site in the past. Under past administrations, and perhaps under this one as well, drama has been seen as a problem to be stamped out. That has never been my understanding of it. Drama is a force for change, for improvement, to break free from the status quo. If enough users and enough staff members agree that changes need to occur, those changes will happen. This is not intended as a pointless gesture, or stirring up drama for its own sake. This is simply democracy at work. Giving the users and the staff a chance to say their piece, and have others hear what they have to say.
Manders and Azrael have a combined total of maybe 25 posts within the Gutter.
You can even see from the PM trail that Manders posted, a fair amount of the Gutter were less than fond of her.
It's rather difficult to quantify something like this in the way that you're trying to do.
I sort of take offence to your conclusions as well as your misuse/abuse of science; for starters, your sample is too small and not representative.
For the record, I could view the Gutter and my clear position is neither for nor against the person and/or the Gutter. I do, however, have a clouded understanding of the crux of the thread and the matter; say, is rianalnn's alleged abuse of administrator privileges linked to the matter of the Gutter, and how linked would that be? If it weren't for that, would perceived abuses be given due damns if you will?
Somehow related to this all, I suppose it goes without saying that having reading and/or posting privileges to the Gutter isn't the same as being a Gutterite, which isn't the same as a common viewpoint or whatever. Variation exists.
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I fully agree; take it with a grain of salt. Even if you flip around some of the results though, it still gives a good rough idea of where the community stands. I was more interested in a general trend than being able to say with 95% certainty that the average member of X believes Y.
The issue of the I think it would help if the admins came forward with something that caused them to focus more on cyberbullying. We can talk back and forth about what cause they might have had, but that's information neither of us has access to.
A fair point, and actually fairly consistent with what I've seen in the negotiations. Although it seemed like Nai and Sene were the senior staffers in favor of changing the gutter but preserving it, while Rianalnn and expiredrascals opposed it, there's been much less of the apporach initially used by Rianalnn and viperesque when this whole mess started.
Understood. Thanks for clearing that up.
I am petitioning for the removal of all other signature petitions. WoTC doesn't give a crap about them.
Get over yourself and sig this to join the cause.
Unfortunately not as you appear to be setting this up as a gutter vs the world type of affair by highlighting them as a group.
To be fair to both sides would be you willing to break down your figures again, this time having 3 groups, current gutter members, members who have been gutter banned and those who fall into neither category.
Because as it stands you do appear to be ignoring a second group that have a vested interest in this issue.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
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In a forum with 623 logged in users (not to mention the total number of active users), 30 people is really small in scale. Most people apathetic or supportive of Rianalnn wouldn't even bother to post here. On the flip side, people who are 'anti-Rianalnn' would be the ones that are vehemently posting here. Therefore, using statistics based on such threads is faulty due to the inherent selection bias.
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I personally think that at the very least there needs to be more administrators which would both lessen the burden on Ria and if chosen carefully would serve to reduce whatever perceived powers he has over the rest of the administration. If this is not possible then I would support Ria being removed from his administration position until such a time as further admins are added to staff.
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The only way being gutter banned could be relevant is if this issue was indeed a proxy for gutter members to witch hunt Ria, in which case gutter banned members would have a "vested interest" in speaking about against the gutter. So if you think the third group may be relevant, you must think that G_R may be mistaken when he says this is not a gutter issue.
Really guys, all I wanted was a springboard for discussion. It is not a coincidence that not one gutter member seems to support Ria, while an majority of other users do support him.
This is a thread about Rianalnn, not the gutter. There was just a 2000+ post thread about the gutter, so kindly refrain from tainting this thread with any theories, grudges, etc that are not related to the topic at hand (Rianalnn's continual leadership failures).
Thank you.
For what it's worth, I'm in favor of moving the staff members whose people skills seem somewhat lacking onto a "site maintenance" team where they aren't involved in the day-to-day moderation of the site, just with ensuring it keeps running. (This would be Ria, 'rax, and probably someone from Europe just to ensure nearly 24-hour coverage.) This seems like it'd solve most of the current issues the site has.
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Balg, Manders,
Waffle King, Guardman and Kait don't all count as Non-Gutter members "against Ria"?[Mafia Stats] Mafia MVP: 1/3 Basic #29,Co-[CCMV]
OK counter question, if you don't want to make this a gutter vs the rest issue why bother looking into the affiliations of those who posted and correlated it with their opinions then present it in a graph format.
As it stands you are the one would quantified the opinions/affiliations
seemingly to discredit one side of the argument as a witch hunt. Its no ones fault but your own if it is now turning round and biting you.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
Keep Ria
Remove Ria
And be done with this?
This tells me you were trying to derail the thread into a discussion about something else. There's already been a springboard for discussion, and it is ria's competence as an admin. Why derail that?
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If you think the trend that not one gutter member supports Ria is a coincidence, then I really don't know what to say to you.
And it seems to me that this is another gutter led witch hunt, continued from the same thread you just mentioned.
I don't know if it matters, but I am actually a gutter member, although I've only posted in the gutter twice.
I am petitioning for the removal of all other signature petitions. WoTC doesn't give a crap about them.
Get over yourself and sig this to join the cause.
What part of Azrael =/= Gutter don't you understand??
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It's not, because if you look at the members of the Gutter, you'll see that all of them has been affected by ria either directly outside of the Gutter or as a member of the Gutter.
As someone who has worked very closely with Azrael on many projects and has talked to him a lot outside of this site, I can say with 100% certainty he cannot be described as a Gutterite. That's a lifestyle choice. Azrael, like me, is a Mafiate.
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Keep that in mind before engaging posts that would subvert Azrael's OP
Personally, I would say that a significant number of moderators calling on an Administrator to step down should be a cause for at least quiet contemplation of their reasons for saying so.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
And if Ria doesn't go voluntarily? What are the recourses? If Hannes is MIA, aren't there effectively none?
It's funny, if I had just said "wow, no gutter members support Ria" we could have actually talked about it. But because I actually went and tallied that none did, and then put it into graph form it can no longer be discussed outside of the context of "omg that's not scientific!"
The graph was simply a visual way to say "wow, no gutter members support Ria". You're a scientist. I'm studying to become a scientist. I have a publication in a scientific journal. I get that it isn't scientific. I know how data interpretation works.
So please stop treating me like I was trying to make a scientific argument. If I had written up that same post without the graph then we would actually be discussing my points (i.e. if I had just said "seems like the gutter continues to be against Ria while not many others are"). Please get over the fact that I made a graph and just take it for what it is.
I appreciate your having the courage to come forward, Manders. Thank you.
First off, thank you for the kind comments, TCM.
For starters, I'd like to address the topic of leaks. No one is leaking mod lounge conversations to me. No one is quoting posts. I would not post mod lounge information here even if it were provided to me. The information I have received have been vague, general descriptions, not in violation of the mod lounge confidentiality policies. Intentionally, the conversations I've had with staff members past and present have been strictly limited to information that is permissible for them to share, and for me to post.
Ex-Mod chat, which I've had access to, has been a different story. If the line in the sand is now being drawn there, rather than at actual Mod Lounge posts discussing actual staff business, then I'm certain the discussion inside the staff lounge will be...lively. But whereas the there are some strong justifications for mod lounge posts to remain confidential in the interest of facilitating candid discussion between staff members, that rationale does not hold true in mod chat, and even the information I have divulged has been redacted in respect to the staff's legitimate privacy concerns.
If they happen to decide they're justified in laying the hammer down despite all that, I'll simply leave the judgment of their actions to the court of public opinion.
But there would be absolutely no justification for Rianalnn to try to use this as some kind of witch hunt among lower seniority staff members for feeding me information, or to justify any further clamp downs on security. It hasn't happened. To the extent that it's possible, I want to play this by the book, and I don't intend to ask staff members to compromise their principles. It's not easy to play it this way, and to work around the mod lounge's rules on confidentiality, but there seems to be more than enough information elsewhere to make the case - if staff members are willing to come forward while abiding by the mod lounge's gag order.
Now, moving on to the topic of what I expect this to accomplish. In short, I believe the staff and the userbase require a rallying cry if any change is to occur. This isn't the first time we've walked this path - and it's helped the site in the past. Under past administrations, and perhaps under this one as well, drama has been seen as a problem to be stamped out. That has never been my understanding of it. Drama is a force for change, for improvement, to break free from the status quo. If enough users and enough staff members agree that changes need to occur, those changes will happen. This is not intended as a pointless gesture, or stirring up drama for its own sake. This is simply democracy at work. Giving the users and the staff a chance to say their piece, and have others hear what they have to say.
He can be reached if necessary.
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