It's funny, if I had just said "wow, no gutter members support Ria" we could have actually talked about it. But because I actually went and tallied that none did, and then put it into graph form it can no longer be discussed outside of the context of "omg that's not scientific!"
The graph was simply a visual way to say "wow, no gutter members support Ria". You're a scientist. I'm studying to become a scientist. I have a publication in a scientific journal. I get that it isn't scientific. I know how data interpretation works.
So please stop treating me like I was trying to make a scientific argument. If I had written up that same post without the graph then we would actually be discussing my points (i.e. if I had just said "seems like the gutter continues to be against Ria while not many others are"). Please get over the fact that I made a graph and just take it for what it is.
Please answer why you didn't count all of the Non-Gutter members against Rin~ and how you determined what a Person thought.
It's funny, if I had just said "wow, no gutter members support Ria" we could have actually talked about it. But because I actually went and tallied that none did, and then put it into graph form it can no longer be discussed outside of the context of "omg that's not scientific!"
The graph was simply a visual way to say "wow, no gutter members support Ria". You're a scientist. I'm studying to become a scientist. I have a publication in a scientific journal. I get that it isn't scientific. I know how data interpretation works.
So please stop treating me like I was trying to make a scientific argument. If I had written up that same post without the graph then we would actually be discussing my points (i.e. if I had just said "seems like the gutter continues to be against Ria while not many others are"). Please get over the fact that I made a graph and just take it for what it is.
Again, an attempt to derail the thread. Please stop.
If Ria were to step down and Az took his place, would there be any sort of consequences for staff who had supported Ria?
Az is not that kind of person. He has integrity and honor. When I reapplied for my old job, even though I had clashed with Az during my first tenure several times, he weighed all of my contributions to the site and made an objective decision to rehire me. If he had held a grudge, that would not have been the case.
I wouldn't support that, and I doubt any other mods would.
You wouldn't support Az being reinstated or you wouldn't support a Az led witch-hunt?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
If Ria were to step down and Az took his place, would there be any sort of consequences for staff who had supported Ria?
I bring this up mostly because I'm worried this could turn into a case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss".
By consequences do you mean a purge of the staff? If so I damn well hope not. Most of the staff if not all of them at the lower level perform the tasks that they need to and there are no issues with them.
And I say this despite spending most of my time posting in one of the areas that is regularly held up to have the most draconian enforcement of the rules on the entire site. That being the MTG rulings area.
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():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and start slitting throats.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
Also, to make it clear (and thanks to Shazbot for bringing this up) I also request for Azrael to be reinstated as MTG Salvation's Administrator.
EDIT: 'nathed by Bel: I do believe that Azrael should step up, for as long as he considers necessary in order to restore the achievements that were already made back in the first months of this year, when several of us were brought into the staff. Also to lead the staff reform discussed in the Suggestions thread.
If you knew Azrael, you'd know that's not the case.
I'm not so much worried about him leading it as I am about other people convincing him that the Ria-supporters are also "corrupt" and need to be removed, regardless of whether or not they actually are.
I mean, really, to me, the whole "get rid of Ria" movement feels like a site-wide game of Mafia... and people not on the wagon for it are getting marked "scum" even if they're thinking "you know, I'm really not sure this is anything other than he's just massively tone-deaf with respect to communicating with people".
@Belgareth - if things are able to go on track without my stepping in, that's fine by me. We'd been in discussions about having some backup admins on staff, able to step in during periods when full-on admins are AWOL. That's one possible option. But I'd be just as happy if someone like you stepped in, or the right member of the current staff, someone who can handle the job and help put things back on the right course, with the userbase as priority #1.
Az is not that kind of person. He has integrity and honor. When I reapplied for my old job, even though I had clashed with Az during my first tenure several times, he weighed all of my contributions to the site and made an objective decision to rehire me. If he had held a grudge, that would not have been the case.
On that score, I would simply stand by my record, as when I replaced Extremeicon in a somewhat similar situation. Rather than cleaning house, I retained every moderator on staff, and introduced a new staff performance review process to address userbase concerns that was deliberately apolitical. The few members who did go through that route, such as Arnnaria, have vouched for the fundamental fairness of the process. Several other staff members also left in the same time period (Lucknorris over that underage trading incident, etc.), but the only politically motivated decision to leave was Korsakovia's (the incident with Weaver, documented in the compendium thread, where ex-mod Korsakovia encouraged a mentally unstable individual to pursue a real-life homicidal grievance against me related to a disciplinary decision in the mafia subforum). All of that, including the staff members who came and left during that period, is documented in the MTGS Site-Wide Issues Compendium.
Instead, I actually made it a hallmark of my hiring policy to promote talent where I saw it, regardless of past politics. Viperesque's promotion to global during my tenure, I think, is an excellent example of that.
Speaking as a professional lurker who almost never posts on this site in general, let alone in threads such as this, I feel that I can be assumed to have a reasonable and fair point of view coming into this. I'm not a Gutterite, or an anything-ite other than someone who plays a ton of legacy and thus posts at Source a whole hell of a lot more than here [obv, no offense meant].
I see a few factors at work from my admittedly limited knowledge of the situation, which is basically comprised just of this thread and a very slight smattering of the Gutter Closing thread, which I caught some 50+ pages in and frankly couldn't be assed to catch up with.
1) Azrael is very idealistic. I can certainly relate - I am too. The problem here is that he's waging a gambit that people will come forward with the evidence. Senori's point is relevant: that so many mods (and ex-mods) are involved in this is at least something, and Azrael & Mander's examples are something, but so far all we've seen is that Ria needs a good slap on the wrist at least. I don't think that anyone in this thread will disagree that at best there's some unprofessional conduct going on here. However, for this to go to the next level, I believe that something more needs to be added. More staff need to come forward with their stories, some hard evidence must be seen (possibly breaching the Mod forum...as distasteful as it is, sometimes the general populace must know what's going on to make an informed decision), and so on. While I can't say that I have had much interaction with Ria, due to my primary status as a lurker, what I have heard thusfar is troubling...especially since I've witnessed a slow decline in the quality of this community over the past year or so in particular.
2) People are still butthurt over the Gutter. While I won't pretend to understand the motivations and politics involved therein, I will echo several other sentiments and urge everyone to keep the Gutter out of it except where absolutely necessary. It's apparent even to me that many in the Gutter had their reasons to dislike Ria...or perhaps it is more appropriate to say that they were in the Gutter because of their dislike of Ria? However, the specifics of the Gutter vs Ria clash should be left out of this thread whenever possible.
3) I see a bigger issue of site management here. I'll echo the shock that a community the size of Salvation only has three senior administrators. That's absurd, and the rate of burnout of that arrangement has to be killer. In that sense, I can totally understand this scenario, because it was bound to happen eventually. I've seen many administrators who started off great and then eventually became downright detrimental to their communities because of burnout. There needs to be more admins in general, a rotational system whereby admins are required to step down at least for a period after a year or two, or preferably some combination of the two.
4) I would be very interested to hear how Ria was when he first started as an admin, by parties of both sides. Is this something that we can blame on burnout? Or was this how he always was, and his personality has just had time to mature/promote like-minded people to positions around him?
5) Something hasn't been addressed hardly at all yet: why AREN'T the mod promotions public? That seems like an awful lot of suddenly vanished transparency. How has that not been a scandal of its own right?
6) I'll close by pointing out that what happens to Ria is largely meaningless to me one way or another. At the end of the day, I'm going to keep reading posts that are interesting to me and probably not participating in anything (although I recently discovered the Mafia forums and those do seem interesting). From what I've read so far, I would say that I cautiously support those who are asking Ria to step down. However, there's a lot more that needs to be said and a lot more questions that need to be asked before we get to that point, in my opinion.
"An investigation carried out ostensibly to uncover subversive activities but actually used to harass and undermine those with differing views."
Oh, I think there may indeed be a witch hunt going on! However, I don't think Ria is the victim of it. Perhaps the most honorable administrator this site has known is being marginalized for trivial reasons. Legitimate dissenters are being hard line moderated and suspended for severely borderline posts.
I'm not so much worried about him leading it as I am about other people convincing him that the Ria-supporters are also "corrupt" and need to be removed, regardless of whether or not they actually are.
I mean, really, to me, the whole "get rid of Ria" movement feels like a site-wide game of Mafia... and people not on the wagon for it are getting marked "scum" even if they're thinking "you know, I'm really not sure this is anything other than he's just massively tone-deaf with respect to communicating with people".
Speaking for myself only, I don't feel that way at all.
On that score, I would simply stand by my record, as when I replaced Extremeicon in a somewhat similar situation. Rather than cleaning house, I retained every moderator on staff initially, and then introduced a new staff performance review process to address userbase concerns that was deliberately apolitical. The few members who did go through that route, such as Arnnaria, have vouched for the fundamental fairness of the process. Several other staff members also left in the same time period (Lucknorris over that underage trading incident, etc.), but the only politically motivated decision to leave was Korsakovia's (the incident with Weaver, documented in the compendium thread, where ex-mod Korsakovia encouraged a mentally unstable individual to pursue a real-life homicidal grievance against me related to a disciplinary decision in the mafia subforum). All of that, including the staff members who came and left during that period, is documented in the MTGS Site-Wide Issue Compendium.
Instead, I actually made it a hallmark of my hiring policy to promote talent where I saw it, regardless of past politics. Viperesque's promotion to global during my tenure, I think, is an excellent example of that.
Okay, thanks. Chalk up my original comment to erring on the side of paranoia (I prefer to look at the worst-case scenario first).
4) I would be very interested to hear how Ria was when he first started as an admin, by parties of both sides. Is this something that we can blame on burnout? Or was this how he always was, and his personality has just had time to mature/promote like-minded people to positions around him?
I've worked with ria for a long time. I started out in Clans. He was a good Mod. He was a good Global Mod. He was a good Admin at the beginning. He has and always will care deeply about the site. As a person, ria is a fantastic person.
I believe it's caused by burnout. I don't fault him, as a person, for that. I also don't believe a burnt out Admin should stay in a position of power.
Funny how this thread has developed in the last two hours alone; some have now decided for the community that Ria is on the chopping block and we need to contact Hanes and have him removed. AZ is now our new administrator.
Our due process system here is amazing.
Poor Ria.
Well, somebody has to take the fall for the move against the gutter. I'm sure you all knew when you announced it, the villagers would grab the pitchforks and torches. It must be ensured that this gutter removal nonsense never arises again. That never again could senior staff agree to do such a thing.
Ria will be entombed for this, forever. You said mean things to people. Azreal will have half the key under his chest. Another will wear the other half around their neck.
I've worked with ria for a long time. I started out in Clans. He was a good Mod. He was a good Global Mod. He was a good Admin at the beginning. He has and always will care deeply about the site. As a person, ria is a fantastic person.
*nods* Totally agree. Ria has had a long and impressive performance as a regular moderator and global moderator, and he worked his way up to the top with a lot of sweat, and a lot of good, solid ideas.
But he has always had a bit of weakness, when it comes to politics, and especially his temper. Trouble seeing others' points of view, staying objective, and working with people who disagree with him, without demonizing them. At global and regular mod, this was never a serious problem, although from time to time incidents cropped up, and sometimes users would complain about his brusque style of moderation. But as an admin, it's been an increasingly serious problem. The role is highly political, and that's not Rian's talent.
1) This has absolutely nothing to do with the gutter. Not everything around here does guys.
2) Azrael is 100% correct. Rianalnn is unsuited for leadership. He is petty, vindictive, secretive, power-hungry, lacks empathy, is prone to fits of irrationality, and generally holds the community in contempt. He should be forcibly removed.
Funny how this thread has developed in the last two hours alone; some have now decided for the community that Ria is on the chopping block and we need to contact Hanes and have him removed. AZ is now our new administrator.
Our due process system here is amazing.
Poor Ria.
Well, somebody has to take the fall for the move against the gutter. I'm sure you all knew when you announced it, the villagers would grab the pitchforks and torches. It must be ensured that this gutter removal nonsense never arises again. That never again could senior staff agree to do such a thing.
Ria will be entombed for this, forever. You said mean things to people. Azreal will have half the key under his chest. Another will wear the other half around their neck.
Lets! Just mke sure enough of MTGS gets to vote that it means more than a big fat hater charade.
There's likely already a module that allows this. However, if there is one that does not exist I would be more than willing to code a module to generate a static popup window requiring users to vote before being able to access the forums while logged in. Obviously, you would not want to force users not logged in to vote. I am willing and able to code this at zero cost with zero expectation of any form of repayment. I also have no issue having other programmers review my code for possible exploits and/or backdoors.
In that case [Ria's character as per Manders and Azrael above], especially, then, I would have no problem with loaning my voice to those asking Ria to step down. It's not a dishonorable discharge type of scenario, when viewed in that light -- it's more like an old veteran who did a good job and now can't (or won't) retire, instead becoming increasingly irritating and damaging to those around him. I think that's a common enough scenario...and like I said, there's no real dishonor in it.
That said, I will point out that there are any number of ways this can go horribly wrong. The odds that Ria would take being forced to step down negatively are extremely high in general, and get even higher with his personality type. As a result, I believe that it would be a poor decision for him to stay on staff in any capacity. Perhaps eventually he could return, after demonstrating that he's not holding a grudge...but the risk is very high. I think even Ria's supporters would agree with that. The gentlest soul can become quite vicious if harboring a grudge. If the decision is that he must step down, he cannot stay in any official capacity.
Likewise, I feel that it's very dangerous to ask Azrael to take up Ria's place as administrator. It opens Azrael, and indeed the entire proceeding, up to intense (and merited) criticism. It could very easily be perceived as a coup, and could potentially lead to worse repercussions than Ria just staying where he is.
I think it's a shame that circumstances have come to this point, but I've seen it before in other communities, and I'm sure I'll see it again. Sometimes people need help to actually move on. I don't view this as a witch hunt, nor do I view it as an "entombing" of a good man, and I think that people who are seeing it in that light are looking at it incorrectly. There's a lot of rhetoric flying around, but I feel that due to the danger involved, it's a necessary evil. This thread should strive to maintain an atmosphere of helping the community, not of demonizing Ria, his supporters, or his opposition. Everyone here uses Salvation to some extent or another, and it's in everyone's best interests to resolve this peacefully and in a manner that leaves all parties at least somewhat satisfied.
On that score, I would simply stand by my record, as when I replaced Extremeicon in a somewhat similar situation. Rather than cleaning house, I retained every moderator on staff, and introduced a new staff performance review process to address userbase concerns that was deliberately apolitical. The few members who did go through that route, such as Arnnaria, have vouched for the fundamental fairness of the process. Several other staff members also left in the same time period (Lucknorris over that underage trading incident, etc.), but the only politically motivated decision to leave was Korsakovia's (the incident with Weaver, documented in the compendium thread, where ex-mod Korsakovia encouraged a mentally unstable individual to pursue a real-life homicidal grievance against me related to a disciplinary decision in the mafia subforum). All of that, including the staff members who came and left during that period, is documented in the MTGS Site-Wide Issues Compendium.
Instead, I actually made it a hallmark of my hiring policy to promote talent where I saw it, regardless of past politics. Viperesque's promotion to global during my tenure, I think, is an excellent example of that.
I'm not willing to discuss anything regarding Ria.
I just wanted to pop in and say that I'm fine with Azrael using me as an example.
I agree with Azrael not being Admin'd, but I definitely want him back on staff. He's a paradigm of logic and civility, and was a wonderful addition to the staff in the first place.
To claim that he "burned that bridge" by talking about his will to purchase the site is nonsense! Such a flimsy excuse.
As far as the CI exploding when NS returned... No, it was quiet until harikus garrulous onslaught. Look at the timeline, man.
Please answer why you didn't count all of the Non-Gutter members against Rin~ and how you determined what a Person thought.
Also Strawman is Strawman
[Mafia Stats] Mafia MVP: 1/3 Basic #29,Co-[CCMV]
Again, an attempt to derail the thread. Please stop.
If you expected anything else, I'm surprised at you, my good man.
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I bring this up mostly because I'm worried this could turn into a case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss".
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I wouldn't support that, and I doubt any other mods would.
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Az is not that kind of person. He has integrity and honor. When I reapplied for my old job, even though I had clashed with Az during my first tenure several times, he weighed all of my contributions to the site and made an objective decision to rehire me. If he had held a grudge, that would not have been the case.
If you knew Azrael, you'd know that's not the case.
My YouTube Channel
You wouldn't support Az being reinstated or you wouldn't support a Az led witch-hunt?
By consequences do you mean a purge of the staff? If so I damn well hope not. Most of the staff if not all of them at the lower level perform the tasks that they need to and there are no issues with them.
And I say this despite spending most of my time posting in one of the areas that is regularly held up to have the most draconian enforcement of the rules on the entire site. That being the MTG rulings area.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
EDIT: 'nathed by Bel: I do believe that Azrael should step up, for as long as he considers necessary in order to restore the achievements that were already made back in the first months of this year, when several of us were brought into the staff. Also to lead the staff reform discussed in the Suggestions thread.
My YouTube Channel
I wouldn't support anyone who supported ria having consequences.
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I mean, really, to me, the whole "get rid of Ria" movement feels like a site-wide game of Mafia... and people not on the wagon for it are getting marked "scum" even if they're thinking "you know, I'm really not sure this is anything other than he's just massively tone-deaf with respect to communicating with people".
(Probably NSFW) So you may have heard I'm trying to write a TV series...
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On that score, I would simply stand by my record, as when I replaced Extremeicon in a somewhat similar situation. Rather than cleaning house, I retained every moderator on staff, and introduced a new staff performance review process to address userbase concerns that was deliberately apolitical. The few members who did go through that route, such as Arnnaria, have vouched for the fundamental fairness of the process. Several other staff members also left in the same time period (Lucknorris over that underage trading incident, etc.), but the only politically motivated decision to leave was Korsakovia's (the incident with Weaver, documented in the compendium thread, where ex-mod Korsakovia encouraged a mentally unstable individual to pursue a real-life homicidal grievance against me related to a disciplinary decision in the mafia subforum). All of that, including the staff members who came and left during that period, is documented in the MTGS Site-Wide Issues Compendium.
Instead, I actually made it a hallmark of my hiring policy to promote talent where I saw it, regardless of past politics. Viperesque's promotion to global during my tenure, I think, is an excellent example of that.
I see a few factors at work from my admittedly limited knowledge of the situation, which is basically comprised just of this thread and a very slight smattering of the Gutter Closing thread, which I caught some 50+ pages in and frankly couldn't be assed to catch up with.
1) Azrael is very idealistic. I can certainly relate - I am too. The problem here is that he's waging a gambit that people will come forward with the evidence. Senori's point is relevant: that so many mods (and ex-mods) are involved in this is at least something, and Azrael & Mander's examples are something, but so far all we've seen is that Ria needs a good slap on the wrist at least. I don't think that anyone in this thread will disagree that at best there's some unprofessional conduct going on here. However, for this to go to the next level, I believe that something more needs to be added. More staff need to come forward with their stories, some hard evidence must be seen (possibly breaching the Mod forum...as distasteful as it is, sometimes the general populace must know what's going on to make an informed decision), and so on. While I can't say that I have had much interaction with Ria, due to my primary status as a lurker, what I have heard thusfar is troubling...especially since I've witnessed a slow decline in the quality of this community over the past year or so in particular.
2) People are still butthurt over the Gutter. While I won't pretend to understand the motivations and politics involved therein, I will echo several other sentiments and urge everyone to keep the Gutter out of it except where absolutely necessary. It's apparent even to me that many in the Gutter had their reasons to dislike Ria...or perhaps it is more appropriate to say that they were in the Gutter because of their dislike of Ria? However, the specifics of the Gutter vs Ria clash should be left out of this thread whenever possible.
3) I see a bigger issue of site management here. I'll echo the shock that a community the size of Salvation only has three senior administrators. That's absurd, and the rate of burnout of that arrangement has to be killer. In that sense, I can totally understand this scenario, because it was bound to happen eventually. I've seen many administrators who started off great and then eventually became downright detrimental to their communities because of burnout. There needs to be more admins in general, a rotational system whereby admins are required to step down at least for a period after a year or two, or preferably some combination of the two.
4) I would be very interested to hear how Ria was when he first started as an admin, by parties of both sides. Is this something that we can blame on burnout? Or was this how he always was, and his personality has just had time to mature/promote like-minded people to positions around him?
5) Something hasn't been addressed hardly at all yet: why AREN'T the mod promotions public? That seems like an awful lot of suddenly vanished transparency. How has that not been a scandal of its own right?
6) I'll close by pointing out that what happens to Ria is largely meaningless to me one way or another. At the end of the day, I'm going to keep reading posts that are interesting to me and probably not participating in anything (although I recently discovered the Mafia forums and those do seem interesting). From what I've read so far, I would say that I cautiously support those who are asking Ria to step down. However, there's a lot more that needs to be said and a lot more questions that need to be asked before we get to that point, in my opinion.
"An investigation carried out ostensibly to uncover subversive activities but actually used to harass and undermine those with differing views."
Oh, I think there may indeed be a witch hunt going on! However, I don't think Ria is the victim of it. Perhaps the most honorable administrator this site has known is being marginalized for trivial reasons. Legitimate dissenters are being hard line moderated and suspended for severely borderline posts.
Speaking for myself only, I don't feel that way at all.
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I've worked with ria for a long time. I started out in Clans. He was a good Mod. He was a good Global Mod. He was a good Admin at the beginning. He has and always will care deeply about the site. As a person, ria is a fantastic person.
I believe it's caused by burnout. I don't fault him, as a person, for that. I also don't believe a burnt out Admin should stay in a position of power.
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
Our due process system here is amazing.
Poor Ria.
Well, somebody has to take the fall for the move against the gutter. I'm sure you all knew when you announced it, the villagers would grab the pitchforks and torches. It must be ensured that this gutter removal nonsense never arises again. That never again could senior staff agree to do such a thing.
Ria will be entombed for this, forever. You said mean things to people. Azreal will have half the key under his chest. Another will wear the other half around their neck.
Lets! Just mke sure enough of MTGS gets to vote that it means more than a big fat hater charade.
My Buying Thread
*nods* Totally agree. Ria has had a long and impressive performance as a regular moderator and global moderator, and he worked his way up to the top with a lot of sweat, and a lot of good, solid ideas.
But he has always had a bit of weakness, when it comes to politics, and especially his temper. Trouble seeing others' points of view, staying objective, and working with people who disagree with him, without demonizing them. At global and regular mod, this was never a serious problem, although from time to time incidents cropped up, and sometimes users would complain about his brusque style of moderation. But as an admin, it's been an increasingly serious problem. The role is highly political, and that's not Rian's talent.
1) This has absolutely nothing to do with the gutter. Not everything around here does guys.
2) Azrael is 100% correct. Rianalnn is unsuited for leadership. He is petty, vindictive, secretive, power-hungry, lacks empathy, is prone to fits of irrationality, and generally holds the community in contempt. He should be forcibly removed.
There's likely already a module that allows this. However, if there is one that does not exist I would be more than willing to code a module to generate a static popup window requiring users to vote before being able to access the forums while logged in. Obviously, you would not want to force users not logged in to vote. I am willing and able to code this at zero cost with zero expectation of any form of repayment. I also have no issue having other programmers review my code for possible exploits and/or backdoors.
That said, I will point out that there are any number of ways this can go horribly wrong. The odds that Ria would take being forced to step down negatively are extremely high in general, and get even higher with his personality type. As a result, I believe that it would be a poor decision for him to stay on staff in any capacity. Perhaps eventually he could return, after demonstrating that he's not holding a grudge...but the risk is very high. I think even Ria's supporters would agree with that. The gentlest soul can become quite vicious if harboring a grudge. If the decision is that he must step down, he cannot stay in any official capacity.
Likewise, I feel that it's very dangerous to ask Azrael to take up Ria's place as administrator. It opens Azrael, and indeed the entire proceeding, up to intense (and merited) criticism. It could very easily be perceived as a coup, and could potentially lead to worse repercussions than Ria just staying where he is.
I think it's a shame that circumstances have come to this point, but I've seen it before in other communities, and I'm sure I'll see it again. Sometimes people need help to actually move on. I don't view this as a witch hunt, nor do I view it as an "entombing" of a good man, and I think that people who are seeing it in that light are looking at it incorrectly. There's a lot of rhetoric flying around, but I feel that due to the danger involved, it's a necessary evil. This thread should strive to maintain an atmosphere of helping the community, not of demonizing Ria, his supporters, or his opposition. Everyone here uses Salvation to some extent or another, and it's in everyone's best interests to resolve this peacefully and in a manner that leaves all parties at least somewhat satisfied.
I'm not willing to discuss anything regarding Ria.
I just wanted to pop in and say that I'm fine with Azrael using me as an example.
I'm thinking Global.
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