So i've been on hiatus from mtgs for awhile and have returned to find a ghastly site. i can't post in certain areas because i must first file for approval from a mod/admin/official even though i've posted there many times before?-heavily layered rules about creating threads or posting?-admin/mod dispute that is ridiculous and covers SO much of the new thread "stickys" and regular threads that it dwarfs the underlying issue as a business- internal disputes that don't require customer/consumer interaction DON'T HAVE CUSTOMER/CONSUMER INTERACTION. as a consumer, and a general manager, i am rather shocked by the developments i've found here. as a consumer/customer, i'm not interested in the problems the company is having as long as the product/service is available, unless im a stockholder. i cringe when i hear people complain about their jobs WHILE they are at their jobs. it's unpleasant to hear, morale suffers, people shop elsewhere. as a manager, and i have done this before, i have taken note of disgruntled employees and pulled them aside to address the issue appropriately and move on. if the employee is still dissatisfied then an ultimatum is given. if no resolve can be met then i reduce their hours to 0. they still technically have a job they just don't get paid and are forced to seek employment elsewhere. the company doesn't have to pay for unemployment because they quit. i care very much about the company i work for and, as such, must make difficult decisions that can often seem cruel. i'm a businessman. times are hard. if you don't want to work under professional guidelines, somebody else will. also, more upset i can't post in competitive forum. i'm not trolling. i'm upset that something once good is now gone, replaced by overbearing bureaucratic requirements i now have to undertake just to post! i've never had to do this for any other mtg related forum website. what are you doing wrong?
The standard thing is because people kept posting janky homebrews and saying that since they won an FNM with 43 forests.dec, that it was a good deck.
People complained and it was changed.
Please, discover the use of grammar. Your wall of text hurt my eyes.
The above has all been sorted out over the last couple of months and has ended in numerous sensible decisions.
I understand you are shocked and a little bit confused, but take a ticket and we'll wait to see what the final call for the Gutter will be in the end. We hope everyone can come to a sensible adult decision.
What an incredibly condescending response.
When someone isn't on the site for a long time and they come back to it, they are giving their honest impressions. Understand that there is value in their opinion. When someone takes a break some from something, its easier for them to determine if it was better or worse before they left.
The above HAS NOT been sorted out. Maybe you think everything is hunky dory but it certainly is not. A user comes back to a site that is overly complex. what he says is the truth, and maybe it hurts for your to have to hear it again, but it needs to be said. There is no harm in valuing someone's impression. Its clear the OP is expressing concern about the welfare of the site. To be dismissive is offensive.
So i've been on hiatus from mtgs for awhile and have returned to find a ghastly site. i can't post in certain areas because i must first file for approval from a mod/admin/official even though i've posted there many times before?-heavily layered rules about creating threads or posting?-admin/mod dispute that is ridiculous and covers SO much of the new thread "stickys" and regular threads that it dwarfs the underlying issue as a business- internal disputes that don't require customer/consumer interaction DON'T HAVE CUSTOMER/CONSUMER INTERACTION. as a consumer, and a general manager, i am rather shocked by the developments i've found here. as a consumer/customer, i'm not interested in the problems the company is having as long as the product/service is available, unless im a stockholder. i cringe when i hear people complain about their jobs WHILE they are at their jobs. it's unpleasant to hear, morale suffers, people shop elsewhere. as a manager, and i have done this before, i have taken note of disgruntled employees and pulled them aside to address the issue appropriately and move on. if the employee is still dissatisfied then an ultimatum is given. if no resolve can be met then i reduce their hours to 0. they still technically have a job they just don't get paid and are forced to seek employment elsewhere. the company doesn't have to pay for unemployment because they quit. i care very much about the company i work for and, as such, must make difficult decisions that can often seem cruel. i'm a businessman. times are hard. if you don't want to work under professional guidelines, somebody else will. also, more upset i can't post in competitive forum. i'm not trolling. i'm upset that something once good is now gone, replaced by overbearing bureaucratic requirements i now have to undertake just to post! i've never had to do this for any other mtg related forum website. what are you doing wrong?
This isn't a business.
This is a community brought together by our enjoyment of the game.
It should not be treated like a business, because it isn't one. There's really no good reason that your beliefs about the guidelines mods should use matter, because you believe that the staff of this site should treat it like something it isn't. Mods aren't part of a business, they are volunteers. They aren't compensated. As such, your demands that they adjust your behavior so that it is in accordance with what your alleged business experience tells you is appropriate are groundless. In a business, people are paid, and thus are held to higher standards than volunteers would be.
Also, your question about what this forum is doing wrong was out of line. That this forum is different from other forums you visit is meaningless unless you can demonstrate that those differences are a detriment to this forum, which you haven't done.
I am petitioning for the removal of all other signature petitions. WoTC doesn't give a crap about them. Get over yourself and sig this to join the cause.
I hate to say this, but I smell gimmick. Something seems to off about this to really make me think that this person can honestly be real about this.
Even if it is a person that has been gone away from the site for such a period, they've apparently not read a lot of the things that have happened and have gone on.
Also, it's easy to read the rules and variations thereof for the areas in which a person is required to adhere to in order to post in certain areas. I, for one, am happy that certain stipulations are required as to cut back on the spam in certain areas.
Wow. Some very sarcastic responses. I expected as much. Magic players often times lack social skills the rest of the world contend with on a daily basis.
I'm sorry my "wall of text" hurt your eyes. I'm curious to know if you've ever read this thing called a book. It often contains these things called paragraphs. Sometimes these "books" have "paragraphs" that are very long and in some cases cover the whole page.
But to those of you who prefer their contents to contain aesthetically pleasing material rather than quality subject matter -I present to you...pretentious. Is that grammar enough for you, Profani?
Again, I'm not trolling. I'm allowed to speak my mind and have opinions, although rather "snarky", I admit. But that's the attitude I was met with.
Everyone, please refrain from trolling. There are a lot of inflammatory posts in this thread and we'd prefer to not need to lock the thread.
@Delerium Sphinx:
The developments you speak of regarding posting permissions are almost entirely restricted to Standard and were devised as an answer to a problem as mentioned above. While not perfect, I understand they've been largely successful.
As to airing our business in CI:
We are a privately owned site, but we are run entirely by volunteers from the community. We keep the community informed as much as we do because we were all brought up from the community and we value maintaining those ties to who we are. The staff runs this site as agents of the community. Would it be easier to not disclose anything? Perhaps, and we do keep sensitive information private, but in general we like the degree to which the public can see and understand the staff's actions.
As to staffing points:
I'm confused as to what you're trying to say here. Much of it seems like a non sequitur due to the fact that you describe hired employees as opposed to community volunteers.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
''Overbearing bureaucratic requirements'' for the competitive forums include nothing but sending a PM to a mod ''give me access pls'' and there you have it. I can understand such a thing can be intimidating for an American who never knew any grammar, but really its not so bad.
There should be a comma after mod and another one after the end quotations, and a final comma should be placed after really. Grammar, sir, is what seperates us from the animals.
There should be a comma after mod and another one after the end quotations, and a final comma should be placed after really. Grammar, sir, is what us from the animals.
Cool story. Expect bad grammar on the internet.
This site isn't a business. It's a community of individuals that are interested in magic: the gathering. If you don't like that you can't simply go into the competitive standard forum and post your 30 forest concoction that you went X-0 at your FNM with, deal with it. I personally don't care much about the change, as standard is a crappy format at the moment. Also of note, if you had put as much effort into applying for the competitive standard forum as you have put into this thread I'm sure you would be able to post there by now. But I guess people love to complain for the sake of complaining. The world isn't perfect and it never will be. Same goes for this site.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Regardless of whether it was an employee or volunteer that behaved unprofessionally, it should not have happened publicly.
That/those person/people should be third-party-moderated, and I can see that something like that has happened.
It was unnecessary to air publicly because at some point in the moderation it shows that both AZ and Rian had simply offended one another by a misunderstanding that snowballed. But by publicizing this, it shows me that your leadership structure is a fickle one and can be damaged easily.
People often took sides where people needn't, to defend whomever for whatever reason. This creates dissension and trivial arguments that exacerbate the problem.
However, by going public after the problem is resolved, you answer people's questions by creating transparency-maintaining the ties to the community.
Hope this helps.
Regardless of whether it was an employee or volunteer that behaved unprofessionally, it should not have happened publicly.
That/those person/people should be third-party-moderated and i can see that something like that has happened.
It was unnecessary to air publicly because at some point in the moderation it shows that both AZ and Rian had simply offended one another by a misunderstanding that snowballed. But by publicizing this, it shows me that leadership structure is a fickle one and can be damaged easily.
People often took sides where people needn't, to defend whomever for whatever reason. This creates dissension and trivial arguments that exacerbate the problem.
However, by going public, you create transparency. Hope this helps.
I agree that the rianalnn issue was poorly handled. I have objections to the bypassing of the official channels already in place for this sort of thing, and I in general have problems with the way events transpired prior to the summit. I won't go into them here however. I do feel though that the Summit was extremely beneficial for all parties involved, and I think the simple unfettered discussion therein both shows the community more about the staff and how we approach our duties to the site, so not only did it bridge the disagreement between Az and ria, and resolve the issue to the satisfaction of all involved, but I think it went beyond that to the extent that it showed the community that the staff are just other community members like them and that we're willing to talk.
Certain disputes should be handled privately. This isn't because we want to hide things, but because it just lessens the number of variables present and let us focus on the issues. I believe the rianalnn discussion should have been aired privately in the staff inbox or to another admin prior to going to CI. That being said, once something like that has been voiced, regardless of whether it's private or public, it is not something we will stifle. The ability of the community to voice their opinions and concerns is sacrosanct here, and while I can't speak for anyone else, I would not have it any other way.
Does that make sense? I delved a bit more into other issues than I intended, but I think they help illustrate my points.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
The standard thing is because people kept posting janky homebrews and saying that since they won an FNM with 43 forests.dec, that it was a good deck.
People complained and it was changed.
Dude, you don't even care to hide the fact that you simply have no idea of what happened here, what is even your point? What are you trying to achieve with this pointless exercise of yours?
You are being dismissive by assuming I don't have the information readily available all over the site. I picked a particular talking point, albeit, there are several. But I'll cede the floor to you if you'd care to enlighten me on ALL of them since you know more than I. I'm merely giving my perspective, but since that's enough for you then please break it down so that I can understand it better.
What happened between Rian and Vir?
What happened in the Gutter?
What happened between mods/former mods?
What was the breakdown leak of information in mod lounge and why did it matter so much?
Was Rian, in fact, using inappropriate language, unbecoming of a moderator, toward other mods/people?
What compelled az to seek his former mod title?
These are just a few things I've learned so far but if I'm missing something please fill me in.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
I feel I know enough to stand by my previous posts then. I hope for the best of this site. I really do. I've always come here because it has been my favorite interaction of magic speaking people. I'm just saddened to find it in such disarray.
Personally, I don't see the need for this thread. It serves no purpose other than to, at least from what I can see, create more drama. I vote that it should be locked or something.
We have enough drama threads that I don't think, at this point, this is necessary.
Well it looks like Shazbot and Psijet are a little late to the party but I think they're onto something. Could it be that I staged this whole thing to prove an underlying point?
Don't air your dirty laundry. Anybody can just come in here, do what I did, although I made some valid points, and kick the hornet's nest all over again.
I feel that if you want a quicker resolution the threads need to be taken down, including this one. They serve little purpose now.
By the way, I hear Rian might be moving to a technician position. Kudos. Glad to hear some ideas are floating around that don't involve anybody leaving.
Well it looks like Shazbot and Psijet are a little late to the party but I think they're onto something. Could it be that I staged this whole thing to prove an underlying point?
Don't air your dirty laundry. Anybody can just come in here, do what I did, although I made some valid points, and kick the hornet's nest all over again.
I feel that if you want a quicker resolution the threads need to be taken down, including this one. They serve little purpose now.
By the way, I hear Rian might be moving to a technician position. Kudos. Glad to hear some ideas are floating around that don't involve anybody leaving.
1. Not late to the party at all. I responded on the first page.
2. Debate/WCT are for dirty laundry. LOL
3. The moderator(s)/admin(s) were probably dealing with a LOT of other things. Plus also, a constant checking for gimmicks is probably not something that crosses their minds when a new thread pops up.
4. Actually, Rian has been moved to a tech position already.
Not going to comment on your opinions of the site, but your business practices are unethical at best and I'm pretty sure they're illegal. You can't just 'cut their hours to 0 to not pay unemployment'. I'm not sure why anyone would listen to the opinions of someone so scummy that they try to cheat their employees.
if the employee is still dissatisfied then an ultimatum is given. if no resolve can be met then i reduce their hours to 0. they still technically have a job they just don't get paid and are forced to seek employment elsewhere. the company doesn't have to pay for unemployment because they quit.
I'm pretty sure this is textbook constructive termination in every state in the US, and most likely in Canada as well. If this ever comes in front of an unemployment board, you WILL lose, guaranteed.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Hey all... I'm retired, not dead. Check out what I'm doing these days (and beg me to come back if you want):
In Canada, there is a legal minimum for work hours. If your employee is under it, you might lose your business license. It's counterproductive to makes comments that this site should be run more like a business, when your own business practices are questionable, if not illegal. Maybe MTGS should be run like a business, but hopefully not like you run yours.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
I'm pretty sure this is textbook constructive termination in every state in the US, and most likely in Canada as well. If this ever comes in front of an unemployment board, you WILL lose, guaranteed.
This is the first time I"m reading this thread and when I saw the original post, I too was appalled by this fact. I'm surprised nobody else brought it up so far. I have no idea why this was even mentioned in the original post.
People complained and it was changed.
EDS: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=397191
The thread where the changes were announced.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyWhat an incredibly condescending response.
When someone isn't on the site for a long time and they come back to it, they are giving their honest impressions. Understand that there is value in their opinion. When someone takes a break some from something, its easier for them to determine if it was better or worse before they left.
The above HAS NOT been sorted out. Maybe you think everything is hunky dory but it certainly is not. A user comes back to a site that is overly complex. what he says is the truth, and maybe it hurts for your to have to hear it again, but it needs to be said. There is no harm in valuing someone's impression. Its clear the OP is expressing concern about the welfare of the site. To be dismissive is offensive.
This isn't a business.
This is a community brought together by our enjoyment of the game.
It should not be treated like a business, because it isn't one. There's really no good reason that your beliefs about the guidelines mods should use matter, because you believe that the staff of this site should treat it like something it isn't. Mods aren't part of a business, they are volunteers. They aren't compensated. As such, your demands that they adjust your behavior so that it is in accordance with what your alleged business experience tells you is appropriate are groundless. In a business, people are paid, and thus are held to higher standards than volunteers would be.
Also, your question about what this forum is doing wrong was out of line. That this forum is different from other forums you visit is meaningless unless you can demonstrate that those differences are a detriment to this forum, which you haven't done.
I am petitioning for the removal of all other signature petitions. WoTC doesn't give a crap about them.
Get over yourself and sig this to join the cause.
Even if it is a person that has been gone away from the site for such a period, they've apparently not read a lot of the things that have happened and have gone on.
Also, it's easy to read the rules and variations thereof for the areas in which a person is required to adhere to in order to post in certain areas. I, for one, am happy that certain stipulations are required as to cut back on the spam in certain areas.
I'm sorry my "wall of text" hurt your eyes. I'm curious to know if you've ever read this thing called a book. It often contains these things called paragraphs. Sometimes these "books" have "paragraphs" that are very long and in some cases cover the whole page.
But to those of you who prefer their contents to contain aesthetically pleasing material rather than quality subject matter -I present to you...pretentious. Is that grammar enough for you, Profani?
Again, I'm not trolling. I'm allowed to speak my mind and have opinions, although rather "snarky", I admit. But that's the attitude I was met with.
Warning for Trolling and Flaming - Nai
@Delerium Sphinx:
The developments you speak of regarding posting permissions are almost entirely restricted to Standard and were devised as an answer to a problem as mentioned above. While not perfect, I understand they've been largely successful.
As to airing our business in CI:
We are a privately owned site, but we are run entirely by volunteers from the community. We keep the community informed as much as we do because we were all brought up from the community and we value maintaining those ties to who we are. The staff runs this site as agents of the community. Would it be easier to not disclose anything? Perhaps, and we do keep sensitive information private, but in general we like the degree to which the public can see and understand the staff's actions.
As to staffing points:
I'm confused as to what you're trying to say here. Much of it seems like a non sequitur due to the fact that you describe hired employees as opposed to community volunteers.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
There should be a comma after mod and another one after the end quotations, and a final comma should be placed after really. Grammar, sir, is what seperates us from the animals.
Cool story. Expect bad grammar on the internet.
This site isn't a business. It's a community of individuals that are interested in magic: the gathering. If you don't like that you can't simply go into the competitive standard forum and post your 30 forest concoction that you went X-0 at your FNM with, deal with it. I personally don't care much about the change, as standard is a crappy format at the moment. Also of note, if you had put as much effort into applying for the competitive standard forum as you have put into this thread I'm sure you would be able to post there by now. But I guess people love to complain for the sake of complaining. The world isn't perfect and it never will be. Same goes for this site.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Regardless of whether it was an employee or volunteer that behaved unprofessionally, it should not have happened publicly.
That/those person/people should be third-party-moderated, and I can see that something like that has happened.
It was unnecessary to air publicly because at some point in the moderation it shows that both AZ and Rian had simply offended one another by a misunderstanding that snowballed. But by publicizing this, it shows me that your leadership structure is a fickle one and can be damaged easily.
People often took sides where people needn't, to defend whomever for whatever reason. This creates dissension and trivial arguments that exacerbate the problem.
However, by going public after the problem is resolved, you answer people's questions by creating transparency-maintaining the ties to the community.
Hope this helps.
I agree that the rianalnn issue was poorly handled. I have objections to the bypassing of the official channels already in place for this sort of thing, and I in general have problems with the way events transpired prior to the summit. I won't go into them here however. I do feel though that the Summit was extremely beneficial for all parties involved, and I think the simple unfettered discussion therein both shows the community more about the staff and how we approach our duties to the site, so not only did it bridge the disagreement between Az and ria, and resolve the issue to the satisfaction of all involved, but I think it went beyond that to the extent that it showed the community that the staff are just other community members like them and that we're willing to talk.
Certain disputes should be handled privately. This isn't because we want to hide things, but because it just lessens the number of variables present and let us focus on the issues. I believe the rianalnn discussion should have been aired privately in the staff inbox or to another admin prior to going to CI. That being said, once something like that has been voiced, regardless of whether it's private or public, it is not something we will stifle. The ability of the community to voice their opinions and concerns is sacrosanct here, and while I can't speak for anyone else, I would not have it any other way.
Does that make sense? I delved a bit more into other issues than I intended, but I think they help illustrate my points.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
I am open to change.
You are being dismissive by assuming I don't have the information readily available all over the site. I picked a particular talking point, albeit, there are several. But I'll cede the floor to you if you'd care to enlighten me on ALL of them since you know more than I. I'm merely giving my perspective, but since that's enough for you then please break it down so that I can understand it better.
What happened between Rian and Vir?
What happened in the Gutter?
What happened between mods/former mods?
What was the breakdown leak of information in mod lounge and why did it matter so much?
Was Rian, in fact, using inappropriate language, unbecoming of a moderator, toward other mods/people?
What compelled az to seek his former mod title?
These are just a few things I've learned so far but if I'm missing something please fill me in.
This has not yet been made public.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
I feel I know enough to stand by my previous posts then. I hope for the best of this site. I really do. I've always come here because it has been my favorite interaction of magic speaking people. I'm just saddened to find it in such disarray.
What do you hope to accomplish?
Do you think it is more likely that this thread will help to diminish the recent forum drama or exacerbate it?
We have enough drama threads that I don't think, at this point, this is necessary.
Don't air your dirty laundry. Anybody can just come in here, do what I did, although I made some valid points, and kick the hornet's nest all over again.
I feel that if you want a quicker resolution the threads need to be taken down, including this one. They serve little purpose now.
By the way, I hear Rian might be moving to a technician position. Kudos. Glad to hear some ideas are floating around that don't involve anybody leaving.
1. Not late to the party at all. I responded on the first page.
2. Debate/WCT are for dirty laundry. LOL
3. The moderator(s)/admin(s) were probably dealing with a LOT of other things. Plus also, a constant checking for gimmicks is probably not something that crosses their minds when a new thread pops up.
4. Actually, Rian has been moved to a tech position already.
I'm pretty sure this is textbook constructive termination in every state in the US, and most likely in Canada as well. If this ever comes in front of an unemployment board, you WILL lose, guaranteed.
https://twitch.tv/annorax10 (classic retro speedruns & occasional MTGO/MTGA screwaround streams)
https://twitch.tv/SwiftorCasino (yes, my team and I run live dealer games for the baldman using his channel points as chips)
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
This is the first time I"m reading this thread and when I saw the original post, I too was appalled by this fact. I'm surprised nobody else brought it up so far. I have no idea why this was even mentioned in the original post.
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W