I'm not an expert on MTGS nor am I a site historian. I just have the dubious distinction of being here nearly as long as better known people while never doing anything noteworthy and being known as something of a *****. For all that I'm not a blind person and have been aware of the decline of MTGS for the last two or so years.
Don't bother denying that a decline is taking place. Anyone who even lurks Community Issues knows there have been several issues going on at once and only now are any of them being resolved. Acknowledgement of a problem is the first step to fixing the problem. Of course the speed at which problems are fixed here tends to wildly vary.
My Actual Point
Here are some problems that are obvious to me. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong, to tell me I'm right, or add your own to the list.
Ever since the lawsuit occurred, Wizards has held MTGS as a sort of example of what not to do. Furthermore, Wizards has tried to push back in significance by deliberately giving perks and recognition to other, lesser known sites. We never have MTGS exclusive previews and if we tried to brand anything Magic related, be it card sleeves or a tournament series bearing our name, I doubt we'd get a mention on the mothership. Out of everything on my list I would most like the leadership here to extend the olive branch to Wizards and try to repair our relationship.
2. Too much pandering to small groups of users, despite touting MTGS as a forum for everyone.
I'm specifically talking about the guys in the Competitive Standard forum and the citizens of the Gutter. I can't believe the admins let a bunch of FNM players dictate what should and should not be in the Competitive forum. The only good change to the Competitive forum is the harsher punishments for budget talk and other violations. The fact that Standard Deck Creation is seperate from Competitive means that many of the users in SDC will never be exposed to competitive strategies and key card discussions. There is Developing Competitive but I have a strong feeling that what goes in there is largely up to the people in charge of that forum and so entirely subjective.
As for the Gutter, all I will say here is that its hard to take a group who says they are here to work for the public good yet need a secret place to unwind and blow off steam seriously.
3. MTGS is somewhat lacking as of late in original content on the main page. Also, the main page is ugly, boring, and need an update badly.
Just look at how the number of articles has declined over the last 2 1/2 years. I used to love reading Cranial Insertion, which has moved to its own site as of March 2012, and anything else that looked good. I know for a fact that there are people here who generate content for other sites. They don't write for MTGS because the main site doesn't have nearly as much unique traffic as the forums do. SCG and other sites have shown that people will pay for "premium" content. In all honesty I'd rather give my money to Sally than SCG.
4. The site and the forum are often seen as the same thing.
Out of all the sites that discuss Magic, Wizards has really gotten it right when it comes to distinguishing their Magic site and Magic forum. No one avoids Daily MTG because of the fact that the forum is kind of a joke yet their forums are good enough to generate considerable traffic. We don't want to be like SCG, whose forums are pretty much a formality and a non-entity, but our situation is no better.
5. Rebranding is needed for MTGS to have any sort of future and it will take alot of work from both staff and users.
As an entity, MTGS is long overdue for an upgrade. We've been the same people, doing the same things for far too long. Its like we've been running on a treadmill. We're skinnier(and not in a good way) and just plain tired.
What I'd like to see is the greatest civic project this site has ever seen. For years ordinary users have been making avatars and banners, creating their own Magic blocks, running online tournaments, etc. Why can't we do what's needed to bring this site fully into online Magic world?
Closing Statement
Its so ****ing sad to me that it took me so long to say what needs to be said. The recent events in CI have really served to wake me from my apathy towards the fate of MTGS. They showed me that some people still care about this place and if they can still care, given the circumstances, then so can I.
I can't say this post was necessary or productive. Sure ringing alarm bells is cool and all, but it accomplishes nothing. (also NS and hark, read the PM I sent you)
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
Are you familiar with the law of diminishing returns, Bitsy? Because what you're suggesting falls pretty hard to it. A simply relisting of the problems without suggesting how you can help is fairly moot, though I will hasten to add that it's heartening to see that you care.
@Bitsy: True. IIRC she got gutterbanned for leaking information and stirring up drama.
Regardless, Today's Gutter has nothing to do with the past 2008 version. 4years is a long, long time when it comes to the internet.
To add some more content: It is my opinion that "re-branding" should probably be very low on this site's priorities.
I don't see why you couldn't have two groups of individuals working on different goals in the same place. Corporations do it all the time. I would suggest having different individuals than the moderators though. Leadership can always just talk to each other. It would be hard to get started, but easier to maintain. Just make it so the Forum Team and the Website Team are separate entities that govern different things. Just because you're a forum moderator does not mean you can control what goes on, article wise.
Mtgs has continually declined official previews.
They would have to stop discussing and being host to unofficial spoilers, you know, the reason this site even exists and gets tons of hits four times a year.
Mtgs isn't shunned by the main site, it just so happens that mtgs is not as important to the magic community as it once was. They don't have articles people care to read, they don't produce anything the community needs to see.
It has segregated itself from everything else.
Gavin knew that, he quit so people could associate him more with SCG than mtgs.
Pros don't take the site seriously.
Grinders don't either.
Other major magic personalities have sworn off using the site entirely.
Forums are not the way to discuss this game anymore. Social media is.
No amount of rehab can save this site.
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News and spoiler contributor for GatheringMagic.com
Are you familiar with the law of diminishing returns, Bitsy? Because what you're suggesting falls pretty hard to it. A simply relisting of the problems without suggesting how you can help is fairly moot, though I will hasten to add that it's heartening to see that you care.
Simply replying also without suggesting anything is also fairly moot. Yay! We cancelled each other out! But seriously, improbable change isn't the same as impossible change. I don't have a magic wand or secret formula to fix the problems MTGS has been having. That's why I posted this thread, to hear what others have to say on the matters I've put forth.
Solutions that come from a single thought process are often flawed and thus its more beneficial to put a problem before a group to find a satisfactory solution. I'm limited by my own views and experiences and so I might miss what may be obvious to another person.
In short, I only wanted to start a conversation about some things that have been on my mind for a while.
@the Gutter: I will say no more about it in this thread. Any outrage can be sent to my inbox.
There's more to the site and its long-term plans than meets the eye of the normal (i.e. non-staff) member. These issues are not unrecognized nor unplanned for.
Bitsy, I find myself largely agreeing with you here. I think fixing the wrongs should take precedence over the more ambitious parts of what you describe, but it couldn't hurt as a manner of helping the site grow and improve.
I think that one of the biggest problems here is that complacency amongst the users who are just fine with status quo makes vocal minorities that much stronger.
It also doesn't help that, as soon as someone mentions that the Gutter has been a source of trouble at various points for this site in a thread, that thread gets swarmed by the same arguments by the same Gutterites (the old canard of "Well, we used to be rabble-rousers, but we're all good boys and girls now, honest!" while simultaneously trying to start drama with the person who posted the original comment). This is a large reason why I've always been a vocal advocate of its removal. It creates drama, just by being what it is, and it's not going to change.
I really value this site a lot. I'm not a heavy internet user, but this is one of the first sites I visit daily, and I value the opinions and commentary provided here. I'd like to see it be the best it could be.
Mtgs has continually declined official previews.
They would have to stop discussing and being host to unofficial spoilers, you know, the reason this site even exists and gets tons of hits four times a year.
Mtgs isn't shunned by the main site, it just so happens that mtgs is not as important to the magic community as it once was. They don't have articles people care to read, they don't produce anything the community needs to see.
It has segregated itself from everything else.
Gavin knew that, he quit so people could associate him more with SCG than mtgs.
Pros don't take the site seriously.
Grinders don't either.
Other major magic personalities have sworn off using the site entirely.
Forums are not the way to discuss this game anymore. Social media is.
No amount of rehab can save this site.
That's real cool and all, but MTGS is still the #1 most popular MTGS fansite. Any problems people can fabricate are really secondary.
I disagree that social media will kill forums for Magic. If anything, I'd rather read about Magic on a forum than on my Facebook, especially knowing some of the clowns I know.
Also, seds, honestly, it's good to know you're willing to beat the crap out of something you think is on the floor, bloodied and beaten, waiting to be put out of its misery. I fully agree that posts like yours are counterproductive. You like gatheringmagic so much, stay there if you've got nothing nice to say about your former forum.
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Now playing Transformers: Legends. 27-time top tier finisher and admin of the TFL Wikia site.
Simply replying also without suggesting anything is also fairly moot. Yay! We cancelled each other out! But seriously, improbable change isn't the same as impossible change. I don't have a magic wand or secret formula to fix the problems MTGS has been having. That's why I posted this thread, to hear what others have to say on the matters I've put forth.
Solutions that come from a single thought process are often flawed and thus its more beneficial to put a problem before a group to find a satisfactory solution. I'm limited by my own views and experiences and so I might miss what may be obvious to another person.
In short, I only wanted to start a conversation about some things that have been on my mind for a while.
@the Gutter: I will say no more about it in this thread. Any outrage can be sent to my inbox.
Okay, you're right. But one of the main problems I've seen isn't that we don't know what the solutions might be, it's that we're unable to pull enough of a workload out of the userbase and staff to make those changes viable; you'll forgive me if I'm a bit chagrined sometimes by the constant harranging of "here's the problem, now fix it" without telling us how. I've tried my best to make myself available to work towards any solution, even some rather farfetched ones, and I wish to know if you're a kindred spirit willing to sacrifice towards making the site better, or if you just wish to discuss.. again. That old gem about not asking what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country pops instantly to mind.
Mtgs has continually declined official previews.
They would have to stop discussing and being host to unofficial spoilers, you know, the reason this site even exists and gets tons of hits four times a year.
There has to be more to it than that. Other sites, like Gathering Magic and SCG, have spoiler discussion forums. Neither of them has been persecuted for it.
Mtgs isn't shunned by the main site, it just so happens that mtgs is not as important to the magic community as it once was. They don't have articles people care to read, they don't produce anything the community needs to see.
The thing is that we could easily produce interesting content. There is no way that every person who ever wrote an article for MTGS just all of a sudden quit writing.
Forums are not the way to discuss this game anymore. Social media is.
No amount of rehab can save this site.
I hope you don't mean FB or Twitter. They both suck for meaningful discussion. Blogs however are awesome. No one has tried to rehab the site in years so who knows if it will work or not.
Thanks for posting Seds. The fact that you bothered at all means you still care about MTGS...even if its only a tiny sliver.
There has to be more to it than that. Other sites, like Gathering Magic and SCG, have spoiler discussion forums. Neither of them has been persecuted for it.
They walk a thin line though.
Both sites have people who do official WoTC articles writing/working for them.
SCG and GM are never the 'source' of the leaks.
Once the leaks are out, and in the 'public discourse' they are discussed.
MTGS is always the source of the leaks, that is the function of MTGS. Noone is connected to MTGS that can be traced back to WoTC. The servers aren't American servers, the owner isn't American, etc.
Trading online does need a forum or something like it.
Thankfully Motl also exists, but mtgs is fine for trading, for sure.
But trading =/= discussing the game though.
Don't get me wrong, I would love this website to do a 180 and have people think positively about it.
I just don't see any of the decisions that would allow that to happen being made. I just see the opposite keep happening.
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News and spoiler contributor for GatheringMagic.com
When we talk about the re-branding, the only thing I see which is passible of being changed is the logo with the 5 colors and the angel with the twisted spinal column. Probably some other stuff could be added like T-shirts, mugs, or whatever, but at the end of the day I doubt stuff like this exerts any influence on the decision to come to this site in the first place (Likely the Rumor Mill as a prominent central place to gather all the spoilers) and the decision to stay here (the thriving of the many sub-communities on this site; competitive type 2; clans; etc...).
tl;dr: I doubt anyone cares about the quality of the angel art when trying to decide whether to stay or not.
I meant that but also other stuff like offering exclusive and/or premium content, a partnership with other sites(especially a site that sells cards and supplies), and having an active content manager for the main site to ensure freshness and relevancy. We're much further away from physical Magic than the other top sites and that needs to change. I don't propose that we dramatically change overnight but at least consider growth as an option.
Doing that would affect impartiality then, though?
I.E. You being able to talk of the one partner store and no others?
You have a choice about where you shop. I go to several places online to buy cards and supplies. I would like to support MTGS though and not places I have no connection to, such as SCG. For me it would be like buying from my LGS instead of Wal-Mart. Except online!
I actually think Forums are a pretty good place to discuss MTG as opposed to social media. I like the linking to cards, the threading, etc... What I would like are private forums where I can be in control and add/remove people as needed/wanted without having people I don't want not able to see our discussion. Basically super-Clans with privacy and multiple threads.
If the Gutter can exist as a private sub-forum, I don't see why a sub-forum couldn't exist where we actually talk about MTG.
I actually think Forums are a pretty good place to discuss MTG as opposed to social media. I like the linking to cards, the threading, etc... What I would like are private forums where I can be in control and add/remove people as needed/wanted without having people I don't want not able to see our discussion. Basically super-Clans with privacy and multiple threads.
If the Gutter can exist as a private sub-forum, I don't see why a sub-forum couldn't exist where we actually talk about MTG.
You know, they do talk about magic in the gutter.
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The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
I actually think Forums are a pretty good place to discuss MTG as opposed to social media. I like the linking to cards, the threading, etc... What I would like are private forums where I can be in control and add/remove people as needed/wanted without having people I don't want not able to see our discussion. Basically super-Clans with privacy and multiple threads.
If the Gutter can exist as a private sub-forum, I don't see why a sub-forum couldn't exist where we actually talk about MTG.
I don't know what you expect to get out of circlejerk threads and an ignorator, but seds and I can both tell you that you're gonna be disappointed.
Don't bother denying that a decline is taking place. Anyone who even lurks Community Issues knows there have been several issues going on at once and only now are any of them being resolved. Acknowledgement of a problem is the first step to fixing the problem. Of course the speed at which problems are fixed here tends to wildly vary.
1. To this day, we are cursed by the R_E playtest card debacle.
Ever since the lawsuit occurred, Wizards has held MTGS as a sort of example of what not to do. Furthermore, Wizards has tried to push back in significance by deliberately giving perks and recognition to other, lesser known sites. We never have MTGS exclusive previews and if we tried to brand anything Magic related, be it card sleeves or a tournament series bearing our name, I doubt we'd get a mention on the mothership. Out of everything on my list I would most like the leadership here to extend the olive branch to Wizards and try to repair our relationship.
2. Too much pandering to small groups of users, despite touting MTGS as a forum for everyone.
I'm specifically talking about the guys in the Competitive Standard forum and the citizens of the Gutter. I can't believe the admins let a bunch of FNM players dictate what should and should not be in the Competitive forum. The only good change to the Competitive forum is the harsher punishments for budget talk and other violations. The fact that Standard Deck Creation is seperate from Competitive means that many of the users in SDC will never be exposed to competitive strategies and key card discussions. There is Developing Competitive but I have a strong feeling that what goes in there is largely up to the people in charge of that forum and so entirely subjective.
As for the Gutter, all I will say here is that its hard to take a group who says they are here to work for the public good yet need a secret place to unwind and blow off steam seriously.
3. MTGS is somewhat lacking as of late in original content on the main page. Also, the main page is ugly, boring, and need an update badly.
Just look at how the number of articles has declined over the last 2 1/2 years. I used to love reading Cranial Insertion, which has moved to its own site as of March 2012, and anything else that looked good. I know for a fact that there are people here who generate content for other sites. They don't write for MTGS because the main site doesn't have nearly as much unique traffic as the forums do. SCG and other sites have shown that people will pay for "premium" content. In all honesty I'd rather give my money to Sally than SCG.
4. The site and the forum are often seen as the same thing.
Out of all the sites that discuss Magic, Wizards has really gotten it right when it comes to distinguishing their Magic site and Magic forum. No one avoids Daily MTG because of the fact that the forum is kind of a joke yet their forums are good enough to generate considerable traffic. We don't want to be like SCG, whose forums are pretty much a formality and a non-entity, but our situation is no better.
5. Rebranding is needed for MTGS to have any sort of future and it will take alot of work from both staff and users.
As an entity, MTGS is long overdue for an upgrade. We've been the same people, doing the same things for far too long. Its like we've been running on a treadmill. We're skinnier(and not in a good way) and just plain tired.
What I'd like to see is the greatest civic project this site has ever seen. For years ordinary users have been making avatars and banners, creating their own Magic blocks, running online tournaments, etc. Why can't we do what's needed to bring this site fully into online Magic world?
Yes. I actually have been in the gutter. About this time in 2008.
Hey! The drama was already there. I just added to it.
Why? Explain.
I don't see why you couldn't have two groups of individuals working on different goals in the same place. Corporations do it all the time. I would suggest having different individuals than the moderators though. Leadership can always just talk to each other. It would be hard to get started, but easier to maintain. Just make it so the Forum Team and the Website Team are separate entities that govern different things. Just because you're a forum moderator does not mean you can control what goes on, article wise.
EDH:
UBGMimeoplasm (Reanimator Control)
WGBURProgenitus (Dream Halls//Good Stuff)
RNorin, the Wary (Metaddited Gaka List)
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios!
They would have to stop discussing and being host to unofficial spoilers, you know, the reason this site even exists and gets tons of hits four times a year.
Mtgs isn't shunned by the main site, it just so happens that mtgs is not as important to the magic community as it once was. They don't have articles people care to read, they don't produce anything the community needs to see.
It has segregated itself from everything else.
Gavin knew that, he quit so people could associate him more with SCG than mtgs.
Pros don't take the site seriously.
Grinders don't either.
Other major magic personalities have sworn off using the site entirely.
Forums are not the way to discuss this game anymore. Social media is.
No amount of rehab can save this site.
Twitter
Simply replying also without suggesting anything is also fairly moot. Yay! We cancelled each other out! But seriously, improbable change isn't the same as impossible change. I don't have a magic wand or secret formula to fix the problems MTGS has been having. That's why I posted this thread, to hear what others have to say on the matters I've put forth.
Solutions that come from a single thought process are often flawed and thus its more beneficial to put a problem before a group to find a satisfactory solution. I'm limited by my own views and experiences and so I might miss what may be obvious to another person.
In short, I only wanted to start a conversation about some things that have been on my mind for a while.
@the Gutter: I will say no more about it in this thread. Any outrage can be sent to my inbox.
I think that one of the biggest problems here is that complacency amongst the users who are just fine with status quo makes vocal minorities that much stronger.
It also doesn't help that, as soon as someone mentions that the Gutter has been a source of trouble at various points for this site in a thread, that thread gets swarmed by the same arguments by the same Gutterites (the old canard of "Well, we used to be rabble-rousers, but we're all good boys and girls now, honest!" while simultaneously trying to start drama with the person who posted the original comment). This is a large reason why I've always been a vocal advocate of its removal. It creates drama, just by being what it is, and it's not going to change.
I really value this site a lot. I'm not a heavy internet user, but this is one of the first sites I visit daily, and I value the opinions and commentary provided here. I'd like to see it be the best it could be.
The MirroCube - 420 card Mirrodin themed cube
And if I've offended you, I'm sorry, but maybe you need to be offended. But here's my apology and one more thing...
That's real cool and all, but MTGS is still the #1 most popular MTGS fansite. Any problems people can fabricate are really secondary.
I disagree that social media will kill forums for Magic. If anything, I'd rather read about Magic on a forum than on my Facebook, especially knowing some of the clowns I know.
Also, seds, honestly, it's good to know you're willing to beat the crap out of something you think is on the floor, bloodied and beaten, waiting to be put out of its misery. I fully agree that posts like yours are counterproductive. You like gatheringmagic so much, stay there if you've got nothing nice to say about your former forum.
The MirroCube - 420 card Mirrodin themed cube
And if I've offended you, I'm sorry, but maybe you need to be offended. But here's my apology and one more thing...
Okay, you're right. But one of the main problems I've seen isn't that we don't know what the solutions might be, it's that we're unable to pull enough of a workload out of the userbase and staff to make those changes viable; you'll forgive me if I'm a bit chagrined sometimes by the constant harranging of "here's the problem, now fix it" without telling us how. I've tried my best to make myself available to work towards any solution, even some rather farfetched ones, and I wish to know if you're a kindred spirit willing to sacrifice towards making the site better, or if you just wish to discuss.. again. That old gem about not asking what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country pops instantly to mind.
There has to be more to it than that. Other sites, like Gathering Magic and SCG, have spoiler discussion forums. Neither of them has been persecuted for it.
The thing is that we could easily produce interesting content. There is no way that every person who ever wrote an article for MTGS just all of a sudden quit writing.
I know. That hurt MTGS quite a bit and alot of people are unaware of that.
I get a look every spoiler season from some guy who has heard of MTGS and was not impressed by what he heard.
I hope you don't mean FB or Twitter. They both suck for meaningful discussion. Blogs however are awesome. No one has tried to rehab the site in years so who knows if it will work or not.
Thanks for posting Seds. The fact that you bothered at all means you still care about MTGS...even if its only a tiny sliver.
They walk a thin line though.
Both sites have people who do official WoTC articles writing/working for them.
SCG and GM are never the 'source' of the leaks.
Once the leaks are out, and in the 'public discourse' they are discussed.
MTGS is always the source of the leaks, that is the function of MTGS. Noone is connected to MTGS that can be traced back to WoTC. The servers aren't American servers, the owner isn't American, etc.
Trading online does need a forum or something like it.
Thankfully Motl also exists, but mtgs is fine for trading, for sure.
But trading =/= discussing the game though.
Don't get me wrong, I would love this website to do a 180 and have people think positively about it.
I just don't see any of the decisions that would allow that to happen being made. I just see the opposite keep happening.
Twitter
I meant that but also other stuff like offering exclusive and/or premium content, a partnership with other sites(especially a site that sells cards and supplies), and having an active content manager for the main site to ensure freshness and relevancy. We're much further away from physical Magic than the other top sites and that needs to change. I don't propose that we dramatically change overnight but at least consider growth as an option.
You have a choice about where you shop. I go to several places online to buy cards and supplies. I would like to support MTGS though and not places I have no connection to, such as SCG. For me it would be like buying from my LGS instead of Wal-Mart. Except online!
If the Gutter can exist as a private sub-forum, I don't see why a sub-forum couldn't exist where we actually talk about MTG.
You know, they do talk about magic in the gutter.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
That's not the point of it though.
I don't know what you expect to get out of circlejerk threads and an ignorator, but seds and I can both tell you that you're gonna be disappointed.
Actually, the server IS American.
According to Flagfox, it is located in Portland, OR.
—Neerdiv, fallowsage
I have no idea what you mean or are trying to say.
That's what I would want. Team discussions with threading, replies, card links, etc...