This is continuing from ER's helpdesk so that we don't clog it up with discussion. Please keep the flaming/trolling at a minimum or they will close it, and I won't blame them.
Okay. I understand your point of view. Now see if you can understand mine. I am completely on board with the Staff making overtures to heal that rift. But I don't think that they should come at the cost of the rules.
I also don't believe that the overtures should take place in the form of reinforcing the beliefs that there are people on the site for whom the rules don't matter. Every time that happens, it creates a ****storm later when people say, "But that's not what happened to him/her!"
Can you see where I am coming from? Personal issues aside, the rules are an important thing. When people cannot participate in a community according to the dictates of rules that they've agreed to in order to become a part of the community, it behooves the community to remove them.
Harkius
Of course I see where you're coming from, Harkius. I'm not advocating any of them did nothing wrong. And I don't think it would be showcasing that the rules don't apply to them. The rules did apply. And reversing the punishments now would only show leniency in the hopes of continuing with the site as-is. Everyone knows these guys broke the rules. But they should also know that all of them, (N_S), kpaca, Kijin, and Madding were pushed to the points that they reached trying to fight what they felt to be injustices. We know there are going to be changes to the Gutter once the sale is final, and we have known for awhile. Because of that, we just wanted to be kept in the loop. Obviously someone on staff, whether consciously or subconsciously, wanted the Gutter to be advised because someone (or someones) told NS, Kijin, kpaca, and Madding the information that they knew.
Could I get a timeline of who did what and when? It's difficult for a member without access to the gutter or knowledge of how the staff goes about things to come to a conclusion.
So a few months ago N_S was banned for leaking information regarding MTGS being sold.
Flash forward to yesterday. Kpaca posted in the Gutter/Staff relation forum about the sale, and was banned because he was on probation, which means if he were to be suspended, he would be banned instead. Kijin then posted about why Kpaca was banned in the community issues subforum, and was suspended. He was later banned.
Clock King was banned for giving his gimmick accounts to who I assume would be Kijin and Kpaca to post about the sale.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
So a few months ago N_S was banned for leaking information regarding MTGS being sold.
Flash forward to yesterday. Kpaca posted in the Gutter/Staff relation forum about the sale, and was banned because he was on probation, which means if he were to be suspended, he would be banned instead. Kijin then posted about why Kpaca was banned in the community issues subforum, and was suspended. He was later banned.
Clock King was banned for giving his gimmick accounts to who I assume would be Kijin and Kpaca to post about the sale.
Add in Madding got banned for posting threads in the rumor mill.
Also, the timeline goes back years. Those who know that timeline best have been banned, so...
I do know that when the mods told us the Gutter would be closed June 1 (or July 1), that was the 4th time the Gutter had been told they were going to get closed.
Of course I see where you're coming from, Harkius. I'm not advocating any of them did nothing wrong. And I don't think it would be showcasing that the rules don't apply to them. The rules did apply. And reversing the punishments now would only show leniency in the hopes of continuing with the site as-is. Everyone knows these guys broke the rules. But they should also know that all of them, (N_S), kpaca, Kijin, and Madding were pushed to the points that they reached trying to fight what they felt to be injustices.
Quite frankly, thats a load of crap. They are users on a private message board, and were notified by the staff not to discuss a pending sale because it may damage the discussions and/or cause turmoil.
They then proceeded to do exactly what they were asked not to do, in explicit defiance of the order.
The bans were fully justified, and reversing them will only lead to similar behavior next time.
They were not fighting oppression, They weren't standing up for the little guy.
We know there are going to be changes to the Gutter once the sale is final, and we have known for awhile. Because of that, we just wanted to be kept in the loop.
And if wants were nickels we would all be billionaires. I get that they wanted to be in the loop. That doesn't mean that they are privileged to be in the loop. The sale was a private business decision being made by the owners of the site. The members of the gutter are in no way "entitled" to knowledge of it.
Obviously someone on staff, whether consciously or subconsciously, wanted the Gutter to be advised because someone (or someones) told NS, Kijin, kpaca, and Madding the information that they knew.
Yes, and someone releasing information they are not supposed to is not license for a member to do the same. They would not have been banned if they did not know it was secret information that they weren't supposed to release.
They knew it was privileged and that they weren't supposed to know it.
I do know that when the mods told us the Gutter would be closed June 1 (or July 1), that was the 4th time the Gutter had been told they were going to get closed.
This relationship is totally irrelevant to the current bannings.
What exactly did Kaitscralt do? Where either Kijin or Kaitscralt on probation? Is disobeying a mod's orders usually considered auto-bannable?
Did Kijin, Kpaca, or anyone else actually use those gimmicks to evade banning?
Right now, I can say that I do not support the un-banning of Clock King. Aiding in ban evasion is a big no-no. That is a rule you don't break, regardless of circumstances.
Quite frankly, thats a load of crap. They are users on a private message board, and were notified by the staff not to discuss a pending sale because it may damage the discussions and/or cause turmoil.
They then proceeded to do exactly what they were asked not to do, in explicit defiance of the order.
The bans were fully justified, and reversing them will only lead to similar behavior next time.
They were not fighting oppression, They weren't standing up for the little guy.
They have been fighting oppression for several years now. The fight has never stopped, it's just been going on where it can stay between the Gutter and the Staff, as it should be.
And if wants were nickels we would all be billionaires. I get that they wanted to be in the loop. That doesn't mean that they are privileged to be in the loop. The sale was a private business decision being made by the owners of the site. The members of the gutter are in no way "entitled" to knowledge of it.
We've been in discussions about the future of the Gutter for months now. This sale, which we knew about, is going to affect the future of the Gutter. In the sake of working harmoniously to mend the bonds, it is logical to think that keeping the Gutter in the loop about the future of itself would be a good idea. We knew we absolutely were not entitled to it, but it would have been nice.
Yes, and someone releasing information they are not supposed to is not license for a member to do the same. They would not have been banned if they did not know it was secret information that they weren't supposed to release.
They knew it was privileged and that they weren't supposed to know it.
I've already admitted they were wrong. But two wrongs do not make a right. I think they were wrong to keep us out of the loop. If you disagree, then so be it.
And after long threads about how the gutter was going to change to fit in with our new cursed over lords, we got information from Kpaca that they were closing us down anyway, even though we'd agreed to change to fit in with the new owners.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Originally Posted by Arcadic View Post
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
Kijin and kpaca were both on probation; Kaitscrait/Madding was not as far as I remember. Disobeying mod orders is an auto-suspension; suspensions under probation are auto-bans.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Sing lustily and with good courage.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
Posted the same thing Kijin did in the rumor mill.
Where either Kijin or Kaitscralt on probation?
Kijin was.
Is disobeying a mod's orders usually considered auto-bannable?
It's listed as an auto-suspension:
Disregarding a Moderator Request
If a Moderator makes a reasonable request that you do or not do something, please follow his or her instructions. If you feel a request from a moderator is unreasonable, contact that person via PM or at his or her Helpdesk. You may also contact a forum administrator to intervene. Do not simply ignore the moderator's request.
Did Kijin, Kpaca, or anyone else actually use those gimmicks to evade banning?
Neither of them did, and none of their gimmicks were used.
Right now, I can say that I do not support the un-banning of Clock King. Aiding in ban evasion is a big no-no. That is a rule you don't break, regardless of circumstances.
It's listed as an auto-suspension:
Aiding & Abetting Evasion of Limited Site Privileges
Do not post content for or from banned/suspended members, and do not assist banned/suspended members in either communicating with or partaking in the forums. Violations will be penalized as determined appropriate by the staff.
So he should be suspended, and Madding should be suspended. I'm asking Kijin and kpaca (and preferably (N_S), but I can understand why that wouldn't be granted since he first leaked it) be given leniency in an olive-branch type action. Suspensions all around at the most.
I've already admitted they were wrong. But two wrongs do not make a right. I think they were wrong to keep us out of the loop. If you disagree, then so be it.
Heres the thing:
1) they were not wrong to not keep you in the loop. It is a private business decision being made by the owners of the site. You have no right to that privileged information, and indeed no reason to expect that it would be given to you. On what reasonable basis can you claim to have a right to private business information?
2) The banning were not wrong. Therefore, keeping the bannings in place would not be a further wrong.
It already has. People are leaving/planning to leave the site because of it.
I myself was having a panic attack over this (not publicly). I was sort of joking; but, I meant it in the grand scheme of things, with lives ending (while life possibly carrying on).
You'll have to ask a mod that.
Fair enough. The question is an open question, addressed to anyone and everyone. Cheers.
If it's all right to discuss this, whatever does the Gutter do these days? All that I know is that it still hasn't shaken off its stigma from earlier days.
How would you feel if an area of the site you call home was threatened to be taken away from you many, many times?
Oppressed?
I would feel just as oppressed as I feel whenever I hear someone being told in my LGS that they can't swear because it's a family store -- IE, not oppressed at all.
I myself was having a panic attack over this (not publicly). I was sort of joking; but, I meant it in the grand scheme of things, with lives ending (while life possibly carrying on).
Fair enough. The question is an open question, addressed to anyone and everyone. Cheers.
If it's all right to discuss this, whatever does the Gutter do these days? All that I know is that it still hasn't shaken off its stigma from earlier days.
We hang out and shoot the ****. Just as they did years before I joined. You haven't seen us because we haven't been getting overly-involved in site-wise issues.
I would feel just as oppressed as I feel whenever I hear someone being told in my LGS that they can't swear because it's a family store -- IE, not oppressed at all.
So because *you* don't feel oppressed, someone else can't. get over yourself dude.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
I would feel just as oppressed as I feel whenever I hear someone being told in my LGS that they can't swear because it's a family store -- IE, not oppressed at all.
Not being able to curse =/= having your home taken away.
Nah I'm cool. But bad posts need to be pointed out.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
Of course I see where you're coming from, Harkius. I'm not advocating any of them did nothing wrong. And I don't think it would be showcasing that the rules don't apply to them. The rules did apply. And reversing the punishments now would only show leniency in the hopes of continuing with the site as-is. Everyone knows these guys broke the rules. But they should also know that all of them, (N_S), kpaca, Kijin, and Madding were pushed to the points that they reached trying to fight what they felt to be injustices. We know there are going to be changes to the Gutter once the sale is final, and we have known for awhile. Because of that, we just wanted to be kept in the loop. Obviously someone on staff, whether consciously or subconsciously, wanted the Gutter to be advised because someone (or someones) told NS, Kijin, kpaca, and Madding the information that they knew.
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
Flash forward to yesterday. Kpaca posted in the Gutter/Staff relation forum about the sale, and was banned because he was on probation, which means if he were to be suspended, he would be banned instead. Kijin then posted about why Kpaca was banned in the community issues subforum, and was suspended. He was later banned.
Clock King was banned for giving his gimmick accounts to who I assume would be Kijin and Kpaca to post about the sale.
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
Add in Madding got banned for posting threads in the rumor mill.
Also, the timeline goes back years. Those who know that timeline best have been banned, so...
I do know that when the mods told us the Gutter would be closed June 1 (or July 1), that was the 4th time the Gutter had been told they were going to get closed.
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
Quite frankly, thats a load of crap. They are users on a private message board, and were notified by the staff not to discuss a pending sale because it may damage the discussions and/or cause turmoil.
They then proceeded to do exactly what they were asked not to do, in explicit defiance of the order.
The bans were fully justified, and reversing them will only lead to similar behavior next time.
They were not fighting oppression, They weren't standing up for the little guy.
And if wants were nickels we would all be billionaires. I get that they wanted to be in the loop. That doesn't mean that they are privileged to be in the loop. The sale was a private business decision being made by the owners of the site. The members of the gutter are in no way "entitled" to knowledge of it.
Yes, and someone releasing information they are not supposed to is not license for a member to do the same. They would not have been banned if they did not know it was secret information that they weren't supposed to release.
They knew it was privileged and that they weren't supposed to know it.
This relationship is totally irrelevant to the current bannings.
Did Kijin, Kpaca, or anyone else actually use those gimmicks to evade banning?
Right now, I can say that I do not support the un-banning of Clock King. Aiding in ban evasion is a big no-no. That is a rule you don't break, regardless of circumstances.
They have been fighting oppression for several years now. The fight has never stopped, it's just been going on where it can stay between the Gutter and the Staff, as it should be.
We've been in discussions about the future of the Gutter for months now. This sale, which we knew about, is going to affect the future of the Gutter. In the sake of working harmoniously to mend the bonds, it is logical to think that keeping the Gutter in the loop about the future of itself would be a good idea. We knew we absolutely were not entitled to it, but it would have been nice.
I've already admitted they were wrong. But two wrongs do not make a right. I think they were wrong to keep us out of the loop. If you disagree, then so be it.
It absolutely is not. Everything that's ever happened during the tenure of the Gutter is relevant.
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
scumbag
Want Higher Level Card Evaluation? Visit Diestoremoval.com
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
Tant pis. It's a shame that they were banned but who were they exactly and for what were they "fighting" in the short- and long-term?
Posted the same thing Kijin did in the rumor mill.
Kijin was.
It's listed as an auto-suspension:
Neither of them did, and none of their gimmicks were used.
It's listed as an auto-suspension:
So he should be suspended, and Madding should be suspended. I'm asking Kijin and kpaca (and preferably (N_S), but I can understand why that wouldn't be granted since he first leaked it) be given leniency in an olive-branch type action. Suspensions all around at the most.
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
It already has. People are leaving/planning to leave the site because of it.
You'll have to ask a mod that.
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
We are on a private forum/website about a card game we all know and love. What possible "oppression" could they have been fighting for years?
GWBKarador, Necrotic Ooze SubthemeBWG
Oppressed?
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
Heres the thing:
1) they were not wrong to not keep you in the loop. It is a private business decision being made by the owners of the site. You have no right to that privileged information, and indeed no reason to expect that it would be given to you. On what reasonable basis can you claim to have a right to private business information?
2) The banning were not wrong. Therefore, keeping the bannings in place would not be a further wrong.
Thats a load of crap. The actions they performed would be justification for banning any member, even one completely unrelated to the gutter.
Fair enough. The question is an open question, addressed to anyone and everyone. I myself was having a panic attack over this (not publicly). I was sort of joking; but, I meant it in the grand scheme of things, with lives ending (while life possibly carrying on).Cheers.
If it's all right to discuss this, whatever does the Gutter do these days? All that I know is that it still hasn't shaken off its stigma from earlier days.
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
I would feel just as oppressed as I feel whenever I hear someone being told in my LGS that they can't swear because it's a family store -- IE, not oppressed at all.
We hang out and shoot the ****. Just as they did years before I joined. You haven't seen us because we haven't been getting overly-involved in site-wise issues.
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
Fair enough. You can argue with the admins who will say exactly the same thing.
So because *you* don't feel oppressed, someone else can't. get over yourself dude.
The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.
Not being able to curse =/= having your home taken away.
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
Chill, buddy.
Tired of corporate corruption ruining your favorite MtG site?
Come join ours!!
We even have Mafia!!
Nah I'm cool. But bad posts need to be pointed out.
The explosion that... destroyed our city, razed our home, and turned our fields into wasteland was nothing compared to what was now happening to those who survived.