False.
I may have interpreted it differently, but I didn't see it that way at all.
As seen in Nai's post, the only option wasn't to up and shut it down. Enforced compliance was also on the table, as well as any alternate solution that we came up with.
Unknown.
In addition to the message being cleared up on their end, our position was also clarified for them. However, I doubt it was intended as an ultimatum due to the use of conditional words like 'probably'.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
I will tell you that there are is a variety of people on staff with varying opinions with a few people that are incompetent and/or self-serving.
[...]
This last part is because I will not tell you I have not seen suggestions like that, but I can't think of a time where someone says "Let's use our mod access to make their life hard or ban them" and it was taken seriously or as anything but a joke. There are some people with questionable motivations on staff, but that's how it works... just don't listen to them.
Do you even realize what a big JOKE you guys are?
You, a global moderator, are telling us that there are self-serving, incompetent people with questionable motivations on staff.
So then if you know this to be a fact and will even share this with us, why don't you just get rid of these rotten apples?
Do you guys need an international summit or something to take self-evident actions?
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Why Ban Affinity? Who doesn't like vomiting their hand into Play Turn 2?
This last part is because I will not tell you I have not seen suggestions like that, but I can't think of a time where someone says "Let's use our mod access to make their life hard or ban them" and it was taken seriously or as anything but a joke. There are some people with questionable motivations on staff, but that's how it works... just don't listen to them.
So then, why has the concept of hacking my account and changing my password to get to the leaks that I have in my possession come up?
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"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
I never saw their original message as a mandate to close the gutter, just a confirmation that it was not acceptable as-is. That meant the final result needed to be something with tighter rules than what the community hoped for, but was by no means a statement of closure. Especially before we had presented any of the new options to them.
I can't be absolutely certain what the original message intended, because their second message was sent with additional information in hand. I doubt it was 'close it now', but that's just my reading of it.
By one person, only to be swiftly shot down, you mean.
It wasn't shot down. It was more of two people saying, "I could not condone it." But it most certainly was taken seriously.
There are people leaking information. I would consider them to be self-serving and to an extent, incompetent.
If they are incompetent, then what does that make the people seriously talking about demanding the information and the name of the leakers? How is there no way for the administrators of this site to locate mails without hacking into someone's account to get at them?
I want answers, because the threat that was made has very real and very legal issues. I would have loved for you to do it. You would have proven, once and for all, that there is no difference between the schism with MTGNews and the current staff of MTGSalvation. You would have proven all of us right.
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"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
It wasn't shot down. It was more of two people saying, "I could not condone it." But it most certainly was taken seriously.
Hey, that was me!
I suggest a lot of things in the ML to see how people will react to them; doubly so in GRR, which is the ML spam thread. No-one's really thinking about doing this.
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Sing lustily and with good courage.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
False.
I may have interpreted it differently, but I didn't see it that way at all.
As seen in Nai's post, the only option wasn't to up and shut it down. Enforced compliance was also on the table, as well as any alternate solution that we came up with.
Unknown.
In addition to the message being cleared up on their end, our position was also clarified for them. However, I doubt it was intended as an ultimatum due to the use of conditional words like 'probably'.
Thank you. Unfortunately, now I'm more confused, as your answers seem to contradict responses given in the rest of this thread.
Regarding my first question: The OP quotes a post by an unknown author that states:
"The first is the biggest news. The Gutter cannot stay, even with the sanctions we've currently put in. Curse will not allow such a place on our website. The hazings, the slurs, basically many of the liberties the Gutter has, they have no place on the Curse network. Curse has told us that we have to get them in line in any way we so choose. Kill the sub or cauterize the bits that stick out of the box, they don't care. But here's the important thing: We may not say that Curse said so."
This explicitly states that Curse's message was interpreted as "Close (or completely overhaul) The Gutter and lie about the reason why". You've said that's false. Please clarify.
Regarding my second question: In the OP, ER states:
"We decided that the best course of action was to contact Curse and ask them to reconsider their closing requirement. They informed us that we took the suggestion too seriously, that it was up to us to close or not; there had been a simple misunderstanding about the nature of our business relationship."
This explicitly states that Curse's message was actually "The decision regarding The Gutter is up to MTGS". You've said that's "unknown", whatever that means. Please clarify.
I suggest a lot of things in the ML to see how people will react to them; doubly so in GRR, which is the ML spam thread. No-one's really thinking about doing this.
That was not you. That was a global moderator that suggested it. As I said, it was seen as a serious option. In fact, to quote the final part of his post, "...I'm not sure something that drastic is called for yet."
Now yes, the person who suggested it admitted it didn't sit right with him, but even putting it on the table? It shows where your train of thought lies.
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"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
Now yes, the person who suggested it admitted it didn't sit right with him, but even putting it on the table? It shows where your train of thought lies.
I don't see anything wrong with considering options you aren't likely to exercise, just to get them out of the way and establish that they aren't, in fact, called for. More than one person was probably thinking something along those lines, so it's useful to make sure everyone's on the same page, even if that page is "we don't need such drastic measures at this point."
The problem has always been (and still is) the management of staff and how everything is dealt. IE: I understand the whole "Sorry, N_S and co. broke the rules and our hands are tied" but just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong.
Its wrong that kpaca, N_S, kijin and the others were banned regardless of what was deemed "Illegal" and the staff obviously doesn't know whats going on with management because they were quick to ban others that were later brought down to suspension.
If you were THAT worried about repercussions of banning certain members would it have been so hard to infract N_S, possibly suspend him and discuss what to do.
But yeah, good job banning the users that actually wanted to change the gutter and this website, all I can say is that this sale has been a ****ing curse the whole time for us all.
I don't think all of the staff are corrupt as has been suggested, but I do think there are a few bad apples that give the rest of the hard working genuine staff a bad name.
Rather than defending them , the staff should be working to ensure such occurances do not tarnish the good work of the staff who do not engage in such activities.
Nobody is defending the leak(s) on staff and anyone else who might be doing shady things, and I think they can burn.
People keep on acting like kpaca, kijin, et al. didn't post multiple times after having their posts and threads deleted.
The problem has always been (and still is) the management of staff and how everything is dealt. IE: I understand the whole "Sorry, N_S and co. broke the rules and our hands are tied" but just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong.
No, but in the case where a rule or law prohibits something that isn't wrong, it still has to be enforced until such time as that rule or law is struck down.
Thank you. Unfortunately, now I'm more confused, as your answers seem to contradict responses given in the rest of this thread.
*snip for brevity*
I don't know what Nai thought of it or how or why he formulated his post how he did. But, in none of the discussion leading up to moving it to the mod lounge did I feel that we were being ordered to close the gutter.
I had more pressing things to do at the time, so I did not pay very much attention to the mod lounge discussion, I only popped in to express my dislike of the 'close it' idea and to comment on the clarification.
It may bear stating, but I don't believe outright closure was ever off the table. I was under the impression that everyone knew a severe breakdown in negotiations would always have resulted in closure.
I think that the fact that the requirements were higher than what was negotiated brought that reality to the forefront may be somewhat at fault here.
But again, it could just be me.
Er ..... the fact that your admitting that someone suggested what effectively amounts to account theft , whether it was not condoned by others or not , doesn't worry you ?
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it a tactic used by past administrations.
I vaguely remember a big CI hoohah about it a few years ago.
No, but in the case where a rule or law prohibits something that isn't wrong, it still has to be enforced until such time as that rule or law is struck down.
But you see, the reasoning behind wrong=/=illegal works better when I'm using in a place like MTGS where it really isn't an important place and doesn't matter if he was banned or not. Its not real like and I'm trying to get out of a DUI.
Deleted and mod-requested to stop posting that content, as well.
THERE ARE SCREENSHOTS OF KPACA'S INBOX AND THREAD POST TIME, HE POSTED THE THREAD A SECOND TIME WITHOUT EVEN CHECKING OR KNOWING A MOD HAD PMED HIM
The reason I'm so frustrated it that he posted in IN THE ****ING GUTTER-STAFF PEGGING CHAMBER. You know who can see that part of the forum? STAFF AND GUTTER MEMBERS. Who knew about the leak at this point? STAFF AND GUTTER MEMBERS.
kpaca had NO REASON to think "Hmm... maybe I can't post about it here?" because we all discussed it in the gutter.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it a tactic used by past administrations.
I vaguely remember a big CI hoohah about it a few years ago.
It was one of the reasons for the initial schism that created MTGS.
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"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
It was one of the reasons for the initial schism that created MTGS.
No, it wasn't. We were all paranoid about it happening--I remember I deleted my inbox when I became a mod here back in the day--but it wasn't really happening.
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Sing lustily and with good courage.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
It was one of the reasons for the initial schism that created MTGS.
Hmm, maybe it was just someone speculating about it then. Around 2009 I think. I remember it was quite a surprise to me that it could be done and was the first thing that I thought of when I saw the suggestion.
"It's been done before, but it really isn't appropriate here."
I thought.
Oh well, whatever. I was just trying to point out it wasn't an original idea is all.
No, it wasn't. We were all paranoid about it happening--I remember I deleted my inbox when I became a mod here back in the day--but it wasn't really happening.
Then it was a problem that you all were afraid of. Whether it was happening or not, you were still nervous it would and it would be a contributing factor.
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"The above post is the opinion of the poster and is not indicative of any stance taken by the President of the United States, Congress, the Department of Defense, the Pentagon, the Department of the Navy, or the United States Marine Corps."
kpaca had NO REASON to think "Hmm... maybe I can't post about it here?" because we all discussed it in the gutter.
If something you post is deleted, it's reasonable to assume that you shouldn't immediately try reposting it (and if you do anyway, you shouldn't assume it wouldn't get deleted the second time) and should, instead, find out why it was deleted in the first place.
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Did you answer in the wrong order? I'm confused
Do you even realize what a big JOKE you guys are?
You, a global moderator, are telling us that there are self-serving, incompetent people with questionable motivations on staff.
So then if you know this to be a fact and will even share this with us, why don't you just get rid of these rotten apples?
Do you guys need an international summit or something to take self-evident actions?
So then, why has the concept of hacking my account and changing my password to get to the leaks that I have in my possession come up?
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
By one person, only to be swiftly shot down, you mean.
I never saw their original message as a mandate to close the gutter, just a confirmation that it was not acceptable as-is. That meant the final result needed to be something with tighter rules than what the community hoped for, but was by no means a statement of closure. Especially before we had presented any of the new options to them.
I can't be absolutely certain what the original message intended, because their second message was sent with additional information in hand. I doubt it was 'close it now', but that's just my reading of it.
Eds:
There are people leaking information. I would consider them to be self-serving and to an extent, incompetent.
It wasn't shot down. It was more of two people saying, "I could not condone it." But it most certainly was taken seriously.
If they are incompetent, then what does that make the people seriously talking about demanding the information and the name of the leakers? How is there no way for the administrators of this site to locate mails without hacking into someone's account to get at them?
I want answers, because the threat that was made has very real and very legal issues. I would have loved for you to do it. You would have proven, once and for all, that there is no difference between the schism with MTGNews and the current staff of MTGSalvation. You would have proven all of us right.
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
Hey, that was me!
I suggest a lot of things in the ML to see how people will react to them; doubly so in GRR, which is the ML spam thread. No-one's really thinking about doing this.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
Thank you. Unfortunately, now I'm more confused, as your answers seem to contradict responses given in the rest of this thread.
Regarding my first question: The OP quotes a post by an unknown author that states:
This explicitly states that Curse's message was interpreted as "Close (or completely overhaul) The Gutter and lie about the reason why". You've said that's false. Please clarify.
Regarding my second question: In the OP, ER states:
This explicitly states that Curse's message was actually "The decision regarding The Gutter is up to MTGS". You've said that's "unknown", whatever that means. Please clarify.
Dunno, from my end its kind of easy to see who is corrupt and who is not.
'about the whole mod team' works for me.
www.diestoremoval.com
A truly great petition
We must not be speaking the same language I guess.
EDIT: I hope Curse boots the majority of you guys when they will take over. Talk about incompetence...
Yes, corruption of individuals trying to run an internet forum about a card game, volunteering their time. What a soap opera.
That was not you. That was a global moderator that suggested it. As I said, it was seen as a serious option. In fact, to quote the final part of his post, "...I'm not sure something that drastic is called for yet."
Now yes, the person who suggested it admitted it didn't sit right with him, but even putting it on the table? It shows where your train of thought lies.
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
Yea, that's what I say. But ask the others. You guys tried to be all friendly, but then you try to close the gutter without talks. It's your group.
www.diestoremoval.com
A truly great petition
I don't see anything wrong with considering options you aren't likely to exercise, just to get them out of the way and establish that they aren't, in fact, called for. More than one person was probably thinking something along those lines, so it's useful to make sure everyone's on the same page, even if that page is "we don't need such drastic measures at this point."
www.curse.com
Tell us the truth guys
And gets banned.
The problem has always been (and still is) the management of staff and how everything is dealt. IE: I understand the whole "Sorry, N_S and co. broke the rules and our hands are tied" but just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong.
Its wrong that kpaca, N_S, kijin and the others were banned regardless of what was deemed "Illegal" and the staff obviously doesn't know whats going on with management because they were quick to ban others that were later brought down to suspension.
If you were THAT worried about repercussions of banning certain members would it have been so hard to infract N_S, possibly suspend him and discuss what to do.
But yeah, good job banning the users that actually wanted to change the gutter and this website, all I can say is that this sale has been a ****ing curse the whole time for us all.
LOL
People keep on acting like kpaca, kijin, et al. didn't post multiple times after having their posts and threads deleted.
No, but in the case where a rule or law prohibits something that isn't wrong, it still has to be enforced until such time as that rule or law is struck down.
Deleted and mod-requested to stop posting that content, as well.
I don't know what Nai thought of it or how or why he formulated his post how he did. But, in none of the discussion leading up to moving it to the mod lounge did I feel that we were being ordered to close the gutter.
I had more pressing things to do at the time, so I did not pay very much attention to the mod lounge discussion, I only popped in to express my dislike of the 'close it' idea and to comment on the clarification.
It may bear stating, but I don't believe outright closure was ever off the table. I was under the impression that everyone knew a severe breakdown in negotiations would always have resulted in closure.
I think that the fact that the requirements were higher than what was negotiated brought that reality to the forefront may be somewhat at fault here.
But again, it could just be me.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it a tactic used by past administrations.
I vaguely remember a big CI hoohah about it a few years ago.
But you see, the reasoning behind wrong=/=illegal works better when I'm using in a place like MTGS where it really isn't an important place and doesn't matter if he was banned or not. Its not real like and I'm trying to get out of a DUI.
THERE ARE SCREENSHOTS OF KPACA'S INBOX AND THREAD POST TIME, HE POSTED THE THREAD A SECOND TIME WITHOUT EVEN CHECKING OR KNOWING A MOD HAD PMED HIM
The reason I'm so frustrated it that he posted in IN THE ****ING GUTTER-STAFF PEGGING CHAMBER. You know who can see that part of the forum? STAFF AND GUTTER MEMBERS. Who knew about the leak at this point? STAFF AND GUTTER MEMBERS.
kpaca had NO REASON to think "Hmm... maybe I can't post about it here?" because we all discussed it in the gutter.
LOL
It was one of the reasons for the initial schism that created MTGS.
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
No, it wasn't. We were all paranoid about it happening--I remember I deleted my inbox when I became a mod here back in the day--but it wasn't really happening.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
Hmm, maybe it was just someone speculating about it then. Around 2009 I think. I remember it was quite a surprise to me that it could be done and was the first thing that I thought of when I saw the suggestion.
"It's been done before, but it really isn't appropriate here."
I thought.
Oh well, whatever. I was just trying to point out it wasn't an original idea is all.
Then it was a problem that you all were afraid of. Whether it was happening or not, you were still nervous it would and it would be a contributing factor.
Captain, United States Marines
"Peace through superior firepower."
If something you post is deleted, it's reasonable to assume that you shouldn't immediately try reposting it (and if you do anyway, you shouldn't assume it wouldn't get deleted the second time) and should, instead, find out why it was deleted in the first place.