Pardon the title, but I'm earnestly interested in putting an end to all of this needless CI turmoil, and I think the site needs a conversation and a plan of action more decisive than the status quo presents.
At the end of the day, the healing is going to have to come from the staff. Neither the users or the gutter have the power to fix it - they don't have any policy-making power. That's going to have to come from the staff - particularly the portions of the staff that the users and gutterites are skeptical of - taking actions to change their minds and restore faith.
It means something unexpected. A change of approach. If you want forgiveness from the userbase - forgive them, first, and act accordingly. You kill drama with kindness.
Right now, it looks more like a Cold War out there. Espionage, spy-hunting, talking about clandestine activities, gossiping behind one another's backs - that's what I mean when I say there wasn't any scuttlebutt to leak, back then. This is not how you move forward from this and stop the CI drama.
What could the staff do to patch things up?
1. Unban the gutterities. Every last one of them. The entire affair was a travesty of errors with much blame upon both sides, and the gutter itself is history once Curse takes over anyways. Even if you think justice is being served, from a purely pragmatic standpoint, you're much better converting them back into friends and productive members than continuing this clandestine warfare. Use your time and resources wisely. Quit spending so much time fighting such a small number of members and bring them back onto your side, as they were last winter. It's no coincidence that the site was largely quiet when the gutterites were left in peace. A simple thing, but people miss it.
Treat them better than they deserve or expect. That's how a stranger turns back into a friend.
2. Quit being distracted chasing the leaks, and quit giving them so many questionable things TO leak. There are a lot of people writing things in the lounge as if the userbase is the enemy, and as if the leak doesn't actually exist. It does, and they aren't.
The staff needs to crack down on all that crap, because first of all, it's inappropriate for moderators to descend to complaining about the userbase. It's no different from the reason that the user X thread was destroyed. And two, purely pragmatically, why are you letting people write things that only throw fuel on the fire? Get rid of it! Crack down and wield some righteous admin authority.
3. Bring back good people onto the staff, that people in the userbase have confidence in. Not me. Belgareth would be amazing, as either a lounge consultant or a mod. He has experience, he's helped keep things calm, he has wonderful priorities. There's others like him out there (there's a long list), and they're under-represented on the staff right now. They don't feel welcome. That has to change.
I know that there's a number of people on the staff who are doing a double-take. And I know that admin is uncomfortable with making decisions that a large bloc of the lower staff disagree with. I could name names, but that serves no purpose. But I think we're all aware of the truth that the lounge itself is deeply divided. There's the old school, and the new school, and while the new school hold most of the keys to power, they're deferring to the vocal old school faction amongst the staff. Many good staff members have left - some have contemplated leaving. Some continue to relay through private channels how frustrated they are with the situation. They feel as though there isn't someone to represent or speak for them forcefully inside the lounge - and often there isn't.
The last time the staff was plagued with a crisis of leadership, change began when a handful of people like Nai and Harkius started pushing for changes from inside the lounge - and never gave up. These days - how many people are pushing hard for change? How many of them are left? Who's there to help the staff find its way? Too many of them are burnt out, or sidelined.
And so many of the staff continue to push for old ways of doing things and looking at things, the ways that MikeyG now believes were a mistake. I know that admin doesn't believe in that way of doing things - but they also haven't challenged the people on staff who DO still believe in it. And as a result, because they want to lead in a style that takes those opinions into account, that group has taken on an extraordinary and unprecedented power to shape the site's policy, because they are willing to be vocal and go to the mats for their ideas.
But we've seen the results of those ideas. And we've also seen the results of a different way of doing things back in January when we had people like Yukes, and the gutterites, and Kraj, and so many other strong voices speaking up to fight for the userbase. Keep on writing it off to ego talking if you want - say it was a fluke that things ran so smoothly. But it has nothing to do with any special or amazing talents of any of us who were involved - and it should hardly be considered an impossible task to run a frickkin' card game site without it exploding-but it was a hell of a lot better way to do things.
And it worked. Those of you who were there remember. We had years and years of CI drama before this year, then three months where everything changed completely around and people were actually happy. But we've lost too many of the people who were part of making that era happen. And now we're where we are today - much like CI was when I first laid eyes on it, except more intense: because now people's expectations are higher than they used to be. They know it can be better, because it has been better.
Things ran better in December and January and February, and they ran better because the staff had a different philosophy and style of management. It was nothing amazing or special, but it worked. We need to bring it back, and that starts with having people on board who will support a better way of doing things, and have a civil conversation with those who disagree with them. They want to come on board and help. Let them. Count me out until I've earned trust, but let others step in and take on that role.
4. Idealism. Yes, this is a card game forum. But we want it to be a pleasant card game forum, right? One in which people aren't harassed by staff, or harassed off the staff, or harassed for being staff. And that starts with good leadership, and good leadership means espousing ideals that people believe in and have confidence in. Ideals like serving the userbase being the one and only objective that you care about. Not leaks, not security, not even catering to Curse.
Nai already gets this - his candor and dedication to the userbase throughout all of this has been heroic, and not to denigrate anyone else's contributions, but Nai has been an unceasing and tremendous advocate for the userbase. It was a huge risk to come out with the truth regarding Curse - but he did it anyways, because it was the right thing to do for the sake of the userbase and that was the #1 objective.
You need more people like that. Belgareth is one of many. There are few better moves you could possibly make than to bring him on board as a lounge consultant, and I defy anyone who thinks otherwise to come out into the open, instead of whispering in the lounge where no one can counter the argument, and tell me why they disagree.
It's not impossible to end the CI warfare. It's been done before, and it can be done again, and you have the power to do it, if only you'll use it.
I'm going to try to keep this short. But I do have a few responses.
Az, I know you were in Pegs with me. We both worked to fix the rift between the members of the Gutter and the members of the Staff. I asked for something back then. I usually do. Small little somethings that are needed in order to fix the problem. And that request still holds.
It needs to go both ways. Simple as that.
The userbase wants to be understood, they want their voice heard and acknowledged. I've worked for that for a long time. But this isn't being sent the other way. It's a constant barrage of 'you're not doing it right, I could do better'.
I'm happy to apologize to the userbase for my failures. I'll continue to do it. The Gutter compromise should have moved faster, for instance. We should have been more open about things.
I'm happy to apologize for my mistakes, the grief I've caused people. Will those that have caused me grief apologize back and understand their part?
You're asking, in this post, for the admins to just forge on ahead without listening to those on the staff that disagree with us. But the admins have been yelled at before for following our vision for the site and not listening to the mods. Or not listening to the userbase. Every time we change our direction, every time we try to change how we do things, there's a vocal outcry. This is no different.
I'll tell you what I don't want to do: I don't want to simply ignore people. I want to convince them that my ideas are good. I want to convince them that my hope for this site is the way to go. And THAT is the way to go, my friend. Not ignore people. Or bulldoze over them. Convince them.
I have failed to attempt to do so in the past. I'm working on doing it more in the future. But it takes time, and sometimes time is something we don't have.
And these good people, Az? The ones you want us to bring back? You can feel free to name some. I can too. And some of the best ones, some of those that I wish did not step down? They stepped down because they were tired of their work going for naught.
Az, this isn't just the staff. This is everyone. This is the entire group, staff and CI poster and Gutter member. All of us. All of us need to change how we're doing things. It's on all sides, all of us have faults.
I'm willing to work with you. Are you willing to work with me?
1. Doing this would itself cause drama, by reigniting the gutter vs. antigutter war with justified allegations of special treatment. And it's not certain it would work: while some might end up on "your side" I doubt all would be willing to forgive and forget.
2. Good advice to a point, but avoiding posting things to leak isn't too different from avoiding serious discussion. Look at the most recent example: since the origin of the issue was a communication from Curse, the only way to avoid it would have been not to involve the regular mods in the discussions about the sale.
3. Good idea, but to my knowledge they're already trying to do this.
4. Agreed, but idealism always needs to be balanced with pragmatism.
1. Doing this would itself cause drama, by reigniting the gutter vs. antigutter war with justified allegations of special treatment.
One of the rallying cries in the Gutter conflict was that the Gutter was being given unfair treatment "because Gutter." Giving the Gutter preferential treatment "because Gutter" is no better.
I'm going to try to keep this short. But I do have a few responses.
Az, I know you were in Pegs with me. We both worked to fix the rift between the members of the Gutter and the members of the Staff. I asked for something back then. I usually do. Small little somethings that are needed in order to fix the problem. And that request still holds.
It needs to go both ways. Simple as that.
The userbase wants to be understood, they want their voice heard and acknowledged. I've worked for that for a long time. But this isn't being sent the other way. It's a constant barrage of 'you're not doing it right, I could do better'.
I'm happy to apologize to the userbase for my failures. I'll continue to do it. The Gutter compromise should have moved faster, for instance. We should have been more open about things.
I'm happy to apologize for my mistakes, the grief I've caused people. Will those that have caused me grief apologize back and understand their part?
You're asking, in this post, for the admins to just forge on ahead without listening to those on the staff that disagree with us. But the admins have been yelled at before for following our vision for the site and not listening to the mods. Or not listening to the userbase. Every time we change our direction, every time we try to change how we do things, there's a vocal outcry. This is no different.
I'll tell you what I don't want to do: I don't want to simply ignore people. I want to convince them that my ideas are good. I want to convince them that my hope for this site is the way to go. And THAT is the way to go, my friend. Not ignore people. Or bulldoze over them. Convince them.
I have failed to attempt to do so in the past. I'm working on doing it more in the future. But it takes time, and sometimes time is something we don't have.
And these good people, Az? The ones you want us to bring back? You can feel free to name some. I can too. And some of the best ones, some of those that I wish did not step down? They stepped down because they were tired of their work going for naught.
Az, this isn't just the staff. This is everyone. This is the entire group, staff and CI poster and Gutter member. All of us. All of us need to change how we're doing things. It's on all sides, all of us have faults.
I'm willing to work with you. Are you willing to work with me?
Of course I am, Nai. And when I say I want people on the staff to fight for ideas that work, I don't mean that I want them to bulldoze people. You know that was never I how I operated. But I would hold a conversation with people and keep at it until I admitted that they had a better idea than I did, or we reached a consensus together, or they left the conversation.
And I'd be thrilled to work with you. I never really stopped. But at the same time, there's limits to what I can do from here, and here is where I need to remain for the time being.
But somebody has to get in there and do the function that I did, once before. To start those threads in the ML. To keep politely talking and pushing for little incremental changes - even when you feel like you're being ignored or talking to a wall.
Some of my ideas above may not be that good. They may need tweaking or scrapped. But too often it feels like a lot of mods want to huddle in the ML and keep most of the meaningful conversations there. And that's not working so hot. So somebody, not me, needs to get in there and make those healthy conversations starting happening again. Civilly, but firmly.
But while saying it has to come from both sides would be fair - it's not a proactive strategy, and it's going to fail. We all want this to work, but the staff is the only organized, policy-making group in this mix. The gutter is a confederation of rebels, and the userbase is even less loosely organized than that. We all respond to where the staff leads us.
That means the onus of fixing this is on your shoulders. You're the only people who can.
--
Switching gears.
Fnord is someone else who I think would be an excellent candidate. Jobie. Binary. I could think of others, given time. Jeff and Silver would have been terrific, if they had been available. Sene, when he's ready. And there's a number of other ex-staff who would be qualified - but who may or may not want on board. Hell, I think Rian was one of the very best globals this site ever had, and the way things have played out there was a tragedy.
--
On another separate tack, I imagine there are things that could be done to eliminate at least one of the leaks that we haven't thought about. Amnesty won't work - Megs and I have discussed why that model just isn't going to fly here. But what about trading reforms, in exchange for turning in and accepting de-modding or even the full-range of penalties? I don't think there's a good way to actually unmask them, but if you can find a win-win deal, maybe that can work.
1. Doing this would itself cause drama, by reigniting the gutter vs. antigutter war with justified allegations of special treatment. And it's not certain it would work: while some might end up on "your side" I doubt all would be willing to forgive and forget.
It's probably flawed. I'm just stretching for some kind of meaningful gesture the staff could make that shows their good faith, that would actually mean something to them.
Quote from Fnord »
2. Good advice to a point, but avoiding posting things to leak isn't too different from avoiding serious discussion. Look at the most recent example: since the origin of the issue was a communication from Curse, the only way to avoid it would have been not to involve the regular mods in the discussions about the sale.
I'd have brought the info to the public as soon as it started to leak. Anything that juicy wasn't going to stay hidden for long. The worries about incomplete info were overblown. When you don't have enough info, most people simply tend to wait until they have more. But when you keep info from them...well, look what happened here.
Quote from fnord »
3. Good idea, but to my knowledge they're already trying to do this.
Not trying very hard. A number of choices face potential opposition by lower staff that hasn't been fully talked through, and I think certain talent the staff should actively court. (Again, not me.)
Quote from Fnord »
4. Agreed, but idealism always needs to be balanced with pragmatism.
Idealism is pragmatic. Most pragmatists never learn that lesson.
If you're going to work with me, Az, there's something important you need to do. Not just you. Every poster in this subforum. Because it's the one constant that has caused multiple step-downs as of late, it's the one constant that has been hounding the staff for the past several months. Because, like it or not, we're all part of the problem. as well as the solution.
While the staff works on that ideal, while we shift gears and work towards that utopia that you and I both want? The folks that post here need to cool off. Go play some Magic, a game we all revolve around. We need to stop putting focus and endless discussions for every single issue.
When it came to WCT, I asked for time. And oddly enough, when given time, we got it done. I ask again for time. I ask that people not make federal issues out of every mistake the mod team seems to make. I ask that I don't have to see a "This person is a horrible mod and needs to step down" every week.
I ask that the users I work for put their faith in me. Simply because I put my faith in them.
If you're going to work with me, Az, there's something important you need to do. Not just you. Every poster in this subforum. Because it's the one constant that has caused multiple step-downs as of late, it's the one constant that has been hounding the staff for the past several months. Because, like it or not, we're all part of the problem. as well as the solution.
While the staff works on that ideal, while we shift gears and work towards that utopia that you and I both want? The folks that post here need to cool off. Go play some Magic, a game we all revolve around. We need to stop putting focus and endless discussions for every single issue.
When it came to WCT, I asked for time. And oddly enough, when given time, we got it done. I ask again for time. I ask that people not make federal issues out of every mistake the mod team seems to make. I ask that I don't have to see a "This person is a horrible mod and needs to step down" every week.
I ask that the users I work for put their faith in me. Simply because I put my faith in them.
If the trend wasn't so grim, and things didn't continue to spiral from one incident to the next, we'd have that time. But there's too much refusal to even engage in conversations with the people that will help the staff avoid more potential drama. There's too many problems that are ongoing, and unresolved, and easy solutions that simply need to be put into effect.
The course we're on isn't working.
We need a better strategy than just waiting for more time to pass - and seeing more mods flame out. The appeal to the users to back off and not get mad at things that make them mad is going to be futile. They won't, people being what they are.
Its not impossible to stop all this, but it is going to take something more drastic than the status quo. Don't we have enough burn out as is? Aren't we ready to seriously work towards an end to this by now?
I feel this needs to be tossed out there as an astute observer and hear me out before considering any of the OP. This entire Community Issues war, yes, this ENTIRE recent Gutter debacle is Azrael's fault. All the advice he's ever given you guys has only complicated your job.
1) Azrael somehow convinced staff to negotiate with the Gutterites the first time it was seemingly arbitrarily closed. One of the primary criticisms of staff now is that staff was negotiating with the Gutter with bad faith. Wouldn't it have been easier to just close the Gutter the first time and be done with it?
2) Azrael may have inadvertently caused the "leak". Azrael and the Gutter pushed for greater lower staff participation in site policy making. You've shared and gathered input regarding the Curse transaction with lower staff. Look where it got you.
3) Azrael is the source of significant Community Issues drama and staff turnover. Azrael made the highly controversial "The Gloves Are Off" thread. He called for Rianalnn, despite Rianalnn being largely innocent, to step down and he got it. Now he's calling for staff members to step down again? At one time, the Gutter loved {MikeyG}. They loved Rianalnn. They loved Galspanic. It's all flavor of the month with users.
Now Azrael is claiming there is this massive "CI War" and that it can only be resolved with an esoteric ritual of negotiation, compromise, and staff resignations. Think before you act and think carefully. I feel the greatest issue with staff has always been its inability to think critically. Rather than dismiss bad arguments, it often validates them merely on basis of popularity amongst users.
It's probably flawed. I'm just stretching for some kind of meaningful gesture the staff could make that shows their good faith, that would actually mean something to them.
Perhaps try a general reset in relations. At the time the Curse deal goes through, both of the following happen:
1. All bans, warnings, and infractions are erased (except for the most serious things, such as ripping). This includes infraction histories.
2. A general agreement by the users to forgive all staff for any past offenses.
Basically, everyone — user and staff — gets a clean slate. Going forward the rules are enforced as normal (and staff may be criticized for actions they take), but anything from before the sale is treated as though it never happened.
While the staff works on that ideal, while we shift gears and work towards that utopia that you and I both want? The folks that post here need to cool off. Go play some Magic, a game we all revolve around. We need to stop putting focus and endless discussions for every single issue.
Perhaps you're on to something here.
Periodic staff vs. nonstaff tournaments? Or even better, have teams, each composed of both staff and nonstaff. Get Curse to sponsor it....
I feel this needs to be tossed out there as an astute observer and hear me out before considering any of the OP. This entire Community Issues war, yes, this ENTIRE recent Gutter debacle is Azrael's fault. All the advice he's ever given you guys has only complicated your job.
1) Azrael somehow convinced staff to negotiate with the Gutterites the first time it was seemingly arbitrarily closed. One of the primary criticisms of staff now is that staff was negotiating with the Gutter with bad faith. Wouldn't it have been easier to just close the Gutter the first time and be done with it?
2) Azrael may have inadvertently caused the "leak". Azrael and the Gutter pushed for greater lower staff participation in site policy making. You've shared and gathered input regarding the Curse transaction with lower staff. Look where it got you.
3) Azrael is the source of significant Community Issues drama and staff turnover. Azrael made the highly controversial "The Gloves Are Off" thread. He called for Rianalnn, despite Rianalnn being largely innocent, to step down and he got it. Now he's calling for staff members to step down again? At one time, the Gutter loved {MikeyG}. They loved Rianalnn. They loved Galspanic. It's all flavor of the month with users.
Now Azrael is claiming there is this massive "CI War" and that it can only be resolved with an esoteric ritual of negotiation, compromise, and staff resignations. Think before you act and think carefully. I feel the greatest issue with staff has always been its inability to think critically. Rather than dismiss bad arguments, it often validates them merely on basis of popularity amongst users.
First off I think this is unfair to Az. The points he did were done in good faith and for good reasons. It's like blaming the doctor when he saves someone's life who goes on to murder someone.
Second I think the biggest problem is Hannes and Curse. The root of this problem is the upcoming potential change in ownership, but both sides have yet to say anything on this. And the staff is not in a position to provide clarity on the ownership or future of the site. And worse yet it appears, via reading between the lines, that the sale is on hold until this gets worked out. But this can't get worked out until someone in the ownership position does something.
You want to know how to start to resolve this. Have Hannes and Curse release a statement on the sale, and if it is going to go through have Curse release a vision statement on the site. I don't care who you have to wake up, chase down, or do slightly off-kilter acts to, but this is how you resolve problems caused by a change in ownership, you get the owners involved.
The other problem here is the staff is trying to fix things they have no control over. It's like the office worker trying to fix a floundering company, he can help, but he doesn't have the power to do what needs to be done. This isn't an office worker problem Sally is having, it's a CEO level. We aren't talking procedures or bureaucracy, we are talking vision and future. The staff are floundering here because they are just the office workers.
The fact that the site has prospered for so long with an owner who for the most part is non-existent is amazing and speaks to what the staff has done. But there comes a day when you need the alpha and omega, not the beta and psis. And the day we needed an owner the most has past many a day ago. Until we get one this will not be resolved and will continue to fester with false hope and delusion.
I really don't have anything else to add to what Az said. I can't be that eloquent but I want to emphatically agree in a way that simply "thanking" his post can not.
However, I will echo something that I said before. If there was any actual damage, the greatest victims are a handful of banned members who were trying to fight for something they care for when months of hard work, reason, and logic failed them.
I'm going to try to keep this short. But I do have a few responses.
Az, I know you were in Pegs with me. We both worked to fix the rift between the members of the Gutter and the members of the Staff. I asked for something back then. I usually do. Small little somethings that are needed in order to fix the problem. And that request still holds.
It needs to go both ways. Simple as that.
The userbase wants to be understood, they want their voice heard and acknowledged. I've worked for that for a long time. But this isn't being sent the other way. It's a constant barrage of 'you're not doing it right, I could do better'.
I'm happy to apologize to the userbase for my failures. I'll continue to do it. The Gutter compromise should have moved faster, for instance. We should have been more open about things.
I'm happy to apologize for my mistakes, the grief I've caused people. Will those that have caused me grief apologize back and understand their part?
You're asking, in this post, for the admins to just forge on ahead without listening to those on the staff that disagree with us. But the admins have been yelled at before for following our vision for the site and not listening to the mods. Or not listening to the userbase. Every time we change our direction, every time we try to change how we do things, there's a vocal outcry. This is no different.
I'll tell you what I don't want to do: I don't want to simply ignore people. I want to convince them that my ideas are good. I want to convince them that my hope for this site is the way to go. And THAT is the way to go, my friend. Not ignore people. Or bulldoze over them. Convince them.
I have failed to attempt to do so in the past. I'm working on doing it more in the future. But it takes time, and sometimes time is something we don't have.
And these good people, Az? The ones you want us to bring back? You can feel free to name some. I can too. And some of the best ones, some of those that I wish did not step down? They stepped down because they were tired of their work going for naught.
Az, this isn't just the staff. This is everyone. This is the entire group, staff and CI poster and Gutter member. All of us. All of us need to change how we're doing things. It's on all sides, all of us have faults.
I'm willing to work with you. Are you willing to work with me?
Personally I appreciate everything you've tried to do since I returned to MTGS and the Gutter in June. It's all been very Romeo and Juliet, I think. Tempers are still high, and people say things that may be discouraging, but I wish you luck in your efforts here.
Az, while I do respect you, I too wonder at these dramatic shifts in your personal feelings towards correct staff management. While you were certainly an excellent administrator, your tenure was also exceptionally short and shotgunned somewhat by what I would call the most terrifying threat the site has ever known, though I do hate to use the Dubya Defense here.
Perhaps try a general reset in relations. At the time the Curse deal goes through, both of the following happen:
1. All bans, warnings, and infractions are erased (except for the most serious things, such as ripping). This includes infraction histories.
2. A general agreement by the users to forgive all staff for any past offenses.
Basically, everyone — user and staff — gets a clean slate. Going forward the rules are enforced as normal (and staff may be criticized for actions they take), but anything from before the sale is treated as though it never happened.
Excuse me for my cynicism and chiming in but I don't think we can go back and we certainly can't repeat this again.
You may ask for the status quo ante and détente but you won't get that and most certainly not overnight. Trust me, mate; I was from the future.
Azrael, admirable as always... I think. :happy?::thumbsup:
Az, while I do respect you, I too wonder at these dramatic shifts in your personal feelings towards correct staff management.
I wouldn't say my views on this have ever changed. I came to the staff espousing them, pushed for them until the day I left.
Quote from Misclick »
While you were certainly an excellent administrator, your tenure was also exceptionally short and shotgunned somewhat by what I would call the most terrifying threat the site has ever known, though I do hate to use the Dubya Defense here.
Kinda cuts a few ways. On the one hand, if someone's tenure is not marked by crises, they may not receive much credit for the good things they do. On the other hand, if someone does go through a crisis in a leadership position, their reputation can either drop dramatically or rise, depending on how it turns out.
Now, the original gutter crisis being averted was about 60% Yukora and Annorax, and about 40% lower moderator uprising. The most important figure in that was definitely Yukes, not me.
But if the idea is, "Azrael was able to favorably distinguish himself in a crisis and then basked in the sunshine of that event and others haven't had that chance", I can't really agree with that characterization. There have been plenty of crises popping up, and I don't think I received the primary credit for that turn-around, which rightfully belongs to Yukes.
But after that, the three of us together went on to do a lot of good stuff together. It was what we did afterwards, once we were free to finally act upon the long-term problems and the culture afflicting the site for years.
And more than anything else, the problem with the MTGS staff was culture, not personnel.
I remember when mods like CK, and Rian a little bit, were spitting mad at the userbase, how ungrateful they were, and how much constant unjustified criticism and complaining there was. This was in 2011, mind, not 2012. And people always said that would never change.
But change it did. And people like CK and Rian saw that, and started feeling better about being a part of the site, started to rethink the way they handled themselves, changed their minds about how things had to be. They went from being burnt out and bitter with the userbase, to being glad to be on stafff again. Without firing a single person, the dynamic of the site was changed. People were hopeful. Happy. Satisfied.
But it comes from the philosophy set by the leadership, and trickles down from there.
I personally think both Azrael and myself are both partly right (and partly wrong) about this. Both staff and users need to improve their attitude when it comes to having a dialogue with the other.
I would absolutely disagree with the immediate unbanning of banned users though, as long as it is a special treatment of Gutter members. Because making exceptions for certain users and usergroups isn't the way forward, in my opinion. Banned users that were banned unjustly should be unbanned, but if the bans were just, I don't understand why they should be reversed.
Some random notes & suggestions for staff as to how to move forward though, while I have the time (I'm on a train right now, and I only have ~15 minutes until I arrive):
Looser spam rules. This is the one I least enjoyed enforcing when I was on staff, and I think MTGS can afford quite a bit more leniency here. I know that Nai and myself (at least, I don't remember if ER was in that chat) talked about this a bit a while ago, but we didn't pursue it. Probably because there was too much drama to address (which is another problem with drama, for the record - getting things done will take a long time if staff has to serve as firemen all the time)
In general, take a long hard look at all the rules, and removing those (if any) that don't actually serve the community enough.
Consider expanding the Lounge Consultant usergroup to not just include ex-admins. This has nothing to do with any kind of watchdog activity, but that the mod lounge could use some more more voices and perspectives.
Staff must always remember to think of themselves as customer servicemen primarily, rather than enforcers.
For non-staff, it's what I said in the other thread. Don't feel as entitled, don't jump on staff immediately, give them the chance to explain, and in general try to be more friendly & forgiving.
I feel this needs to be tossed out there as an astute observer and hear me out before considering any of the OP. This entire Community Issues war, yes, this ENTIRE recent Gutter debacle is Azrael's fault. All the advice he's ever given you guys has only complicated your job.
1) Azrael somehow convinced staff to negotiate with the Gutterites the first time it was seemingly arbitrarily closed. One of the primary criticisms of staff now is that staff was negotiating with the Gutter with bad faith. Wouldn't it have been easier to just close the Gutter the first time and be done with it?
2) Azrael may have inadvertently caused the "leak". Azrael and the Gutter pushed for greater lower staff participation in site policy making. You've shared and gathered input regarding the Curse transaction with lower staff. Look where it got you.
3) Azrael is the source of significant Community Issues drama and staff turnover. Azrael made the highly controversial "The Gloves Are Off" thread. He called for Rianalnn, despite Rianalnn being largely innocent, to step down and he got it. Now he's calling for staff members to step down again? At one time, the Gutter loved {MikeyG}. They loved Rianalnn. They loved Galspanic. It's all flavor of the month with users.
Now Azrael is claiming there is this massive "CI War" and that it can only be resolved with an esoteric ritual of negotiation, compromise, and staff resignations. Think before you act and think carefully. I feel the greatest issue with staff has always been its inability to think critically. Rather than dismiss bad arguments, it often validates them merely on basis of popularity amongst users.
I think it is fair to point out that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Anyone that took this guy seriously can go ahead and stop doing that.
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I personally think both Azrael and myself are both partly right (and partly wrong) about this. Both staff and users need to improve their attitude when it comes to having a dialogue with the other.
Yes
I would absolutely disagree with the immediate unbanning of banned users though, as long as it is a special treatment of Gutter members. Because making exceptions for certain users and usergroups isn't the way forward, in my opinion. Banned users that were banned unjustly should be unbanned, but if the bans were just, I don't understand why they should be reversed.
See, there is an issue here:
It is reasonable for the staff to say that gutter members broke the rules, they did, and therefore the onus lies with staff.
It is also reasonable for the members to say that the gutter members only broke rules due to inconsistent or sub-par moderation and communication combined with a bit of bad luck.
Looser spam rules. This is the one I least enjoyed enforcing when I was on staff, and I think MTGS can afford quite a bit more leniency here. I know that Nai and myself (at least, I don't remember if ER was in that chat) talked about this a bit a while ago, but we didn't pursue it. Probably because there was too much drama to address (which is another problem with drama, for the record - getting things done will take a long time if staff has to serve as firemen all the time)
Oh god please! And I agree with the unnecessary drama thing. There are either one or two threads in the top 5 in CI that don't exactly need to exist. That adds to drama.
In general, take a long hard look at all the rules, and removing those (if any) that don't actually serve the community enough.
I've been asking for clearer rules for a while, and so has Az if I recall.
Consider expanding the Lounge Consultant usergroup to not just include ex-admins. This has nothing to do with any kind of watchdog activity, but that the mod lounge could use some more more voices and perspectives.
When this was suggested (although as a watchdog/ombudsman group) before the existence of lounge consultant, it was met with what I can only call vitriol from normal mods. I'm still in favor though.
Staff must always remember to think of themselves as customer servicemen primarily, rather than enforcers.
I think that this shift in mindset would honestly solve most of the escalation. It wouldn't solve the original issues, but it'd keep them from exploding into dramabombs.
For non-staff, it's what I said in the other thread. Don't feel as entitled, don't jump on staff immediately, give them the chance to explain, and in general try to be more friendly & forgiving.
And this, as the corollary to the above is also true. Users don't need to assume the staff is agendizing and is out to 'get you' all the time. It just plain isn't true.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
Some random notes & suggestions for staff as to how to move forward though, while I have the time (I'm on a train right now, and I only have ~15 minutes until I arrive):
Looser spam rules. This is the one I least enjoyed enforcing when I was on staff, and I think MTGS can afford quite a bit more leniency here. I know that Nai and myself (at least, I don't remember if ER was in that chat) talked about this a bit a while ago, but we didn't pursue it. Probably because there was too much drama to address (which is another problem with drama, for the record - getting things done will take a long time if staff has to serve as firemen all the time)
In general, take a long hard look at all the rules, and removing those (if any) that don't actually serve the community enough.
Consider expanding the Lounge Consultant usergroup to not just include ex-admins. This has nothing to do with any kind of watchdog activity, but that the mod lounge could use some more more voices and perspectives.
Staff must always remember to think of themselves as customer servicemen primarily, rather than enforcers.
For non-staff, it's what I said in the other thread. Don't feel as entitled, don't jump on staff immediately, give them the chance to explain, and in general try to be more friendly & forgiving.
I was never a member of staff or the gutter and have no allegiance. I use my judgement to determine if something makes sense or not and I have posted in CI when I had issues that affected me personally.
I would love to see these types of changes.
I believe that all the above answers the majority if not all the issues that I have had. That being said, from my personal view the site seems to be operating quite well for me. Maybe theres so much moderator attention on the "leak" that the rest of the site isn't being micromanaged or maybe there is a turn for the better in more of a hands off approach by the staff.
As a user I want to be able to post my ideas, discuss them with others, discuss their ideas. The last month has been pretty good, I do not have the same type of paranoia when checking my inbox that there might be another infraction issued.
I absolutely refuse to get involved in the "leak" thread because it does not concern me. Keep the "drama" confined to the CI, and the rest of the site running fine. Thanks for reading.
I remember when mods like CK, and Rian a little bit, were spitting mad at the userbase, how ungrateful they were, and how much constant unjustified criticism and complaining there was. This was in 2011, mind, not 2012. And people always said that would never change.
But change it did. And people like CK and Rian saw that, and started feeling better about being a part of the site, started to rethink the way they handled themselves, changed their minds about how things had to be. They went from being burnt out and bitter with the userbase, to being glad to be on stafff again.
Not this rian, surely.
End of last year I was frustrated with the upper staff culture, not the community (you even quote me saying as much, here). I don't recall your version of events at all, Az, but I do recall all the cleanup we had to do after you kicked the rules over & then left.
I wouldn't say my views on this have ever changed.
I disagree, sir, and that's what worries me. In Gloves, you and I fought together, and you worked hard, coming to a compromise that benefited everyone. Now I see you issuing what amount to ultimatums, dire warnings, and the whole thing comes off as, well, as a stump speech a week before the election. Understand, I don't actually ask this as an attack, either on your suggestions or your character, in fact I admire the fact that you're seeking solutions instead of just pointing, once again, to the problem, but what you suggest just flies in the face of what you've said before... wasn't it only a couple of weeks ago that you were saying the Gutter members wouldn't come back even if allowed to?
I know that this schism has grown, to the point where it's almost impossible to see the other side clearly.. hell, in just a few months I've watched my persona here collapse from a man of some integrity, capable of making a speech or two of his own, to little more than an impotent troll barely able to scrawl out a quip, taking actions that try so desperately to bridge that chasm that it must have seemed suicidal. I too, weary quickly of a staff that constantly, always asks for time and more time, time to consult and discuss and brainburststorm and paint their own set of fences (in pink, no less); I wish they would find a new bargaining chip.
...but then you had to go and talk about idealism. It reminded me of another man who has much to say on the topic of enthusiasm [link NSFW for use of strong language], and it gave me great pause. The Father of the Gutter spent a great deal of his time here banging his head against this wall of Us vs. Them, and to a great degree failed. It is time we stopped following in his footsteps, and accepted that our place isn't to try to sneak into the Mod Lounge, get in there with a bowl of soup and maybe tell them a little something about Jesus. To do otherwise is to bring down our previous ideals.
What we can do from over here, however, and this is so important it might be the lynchpin of the continuation of the site, is to stop listening to the leak. I know that's hard, so very hard, but waving privileged information in the staff's face is only going to make these leaks harder to suppress, make their violation more painful.. if we ignore them, however, if we have trust that the staff, inexperienced as it is, can lead us forward, we take away every iota of the mole's power, and our strong voices will finally be able to be heard above their whispers.
End of last year I was frustrated with the upper staff culture, not the community (you even quote me saying as much, here). I don't recall your version of events at all, Az, but I do recall all the cleanup we had to do after you kicked the rules over & then left.
I apologize; I mainly recalled you being disillusioned and sitting on the fence regarding many of the reforms for a while before changing your mind. CK was certainly more disenchanted with the userbase in particular and my mental impressions of you during that time period must have blurred together.
As to cleanup, I recall Galspanic saying something along the lines of having problems enforcing rules that were no longer on the books. That struck me as a curious thing, since if the rule was taken off the books, why did we have moderators still seeking to enforce it...
We only outright eliminated backseat moderation; I can't recall anything else off-hand that was completely ditched. We reworked the rule against advertising to solicitation and reworked spam and made a bunch of formatting changes. And all of this was certainly open to extensive debate and discussion at the time.
And I do regret having left as quickly as I did. However, my RL during that period was very hectic, and that has a way of taking precedence. I also had confidence you guys could handle it. You, Yukes, and Sene made a great team together, and in those first months after I left userbase/staff relations were just as solid as the ones before, as far as I can tell.
Perhaps we should just be lobbying to draft Yukes back into admin, since he's been the common denominator of success throughout all this and things didn't really go off the rails until pretty soon after he left. *muses* He not only had good priorities, but very good political instincts.
I disagree, sir, and that's what worries me. In Gloves, you and I fought together, and you worked hard, coming to a compromise that benefited everyone. Now I see you issuing what amount to ultimatums, dire warnings, and the whole thing comes off as, well, as a stump speech a week before the election. Understand, I don't actually ask this as an attack, either on your suggestions or your character, in fact I admire the fact that you're seeking solutions instead of just pointing, once again, to the problem, but what you suggest just flies in the face of what you've said before... wasn't it only a couple of weeks ago that you were saying the Gutter members wouldn't come back even if allowed to?
I know that this schism has grown, to the point where it's almost impossible to see the other side clearly.. hell, in just a few months I've watched my persona here collapse from a man of some integrity, capable of making a speech or two of his own, to little more than an impotent troll barely able to scrawl out a quip, taking actions that try so desperately to bridge that chasm that it must have seemed suicidal. I too, weary quickly of a staff that constantly, always asks for time and more time, time to consult and discuss and brainburststorm and paint their own set of fences (in pink, no less); I wish they would find a new bargaining chip.\
Mmm, I'm not really sold that the first suggestion re:gutterites is ideal. But certainly, there are things that can be done in a similar vein. The principle behind the idea is a good one.
I've just heard the refrain again and again that the userbase is part of the problem, the userbase needs to work together with the staff, etc. etc.
And sure, in a perfectly fair world, the userbase would own up to their mistakes and all the hysterics would end. They ARE at fault. They ARE part of the problem. They SHOULD work hand in hand with the stuff to fix things.
But does anyone see a sign of that happening anytime soon en masse? I don't - and I'm worried that we seem to have people who are pinning their hopes on that happening sometime soon.
And that means that if things are going to get better, the staff are going to need to be the better people and step it up with some solid new ideas. If we wait for all the individual members of the userbase to be better people on their own and dump the hysterics, we'll be waiting for a while.
When others fall short, leaders have to step up to fill the gap. Pragmatically, that's how you have to adapt to an imperfect world and the imperfect people living in it. By relying on the good people amongst you to help reach a better way, and bringing everyone else along with them.
Perhaps we should just be lobbying to draft Yukes back into admin, since he's been the common denominator of success throughout all this and things didn't really go off the rails until pretty soon after he left. *muses* He not only had good priorities, but very good political instincts.
I am very fond of Yukora and I think he would be great. I dunno how active & dedicated he has been though - that was my concern (and only concern) when I talked with him about it a couple of months ago.
Quote from Azrael »
But does anyone see a sign of that happening anytime soon en masse? I don't - and I'm worried that we seem to have people who are pinning their hopes on that happening sometime soon.
Absolutely fair. But it doesn't hurt to try, does it?
Anyway, yes. Change in users' approach should not be completely necessary to move forward, but it would help a lot, obviously.
And that means that if things are going to get better, the staff are going to need to be the better people and step it up with some solid new ideas. If we wait for all the individual members of the userbase to be better people on their own and dump the hysterics, we'll be waiting for a while.
When others fall short, leaders have to step up to fill the gap. Pragmatically, that's how you have to adapt to an imperfect world and the imperfect people living in it. By relying on the good people amongst you to help reach a better way, and bringing everyone else along with them.
Ah, but that's the problem, innit? Staff turnover has been happening so fast recently that as soon as someone shows even a glimmer of integrity, they become part of the leadership. That, in fact, was your point, that Staff Culture has gone out of control... made more worrisome when you consider there are precious few Grey Knights left to defend those of the muggle userbase who can disagree with staff in a gracious way.
At the end of the day, the healing is going to have to come from the staff. Neither the users or the gutter have the power to fix it - they don't have any policy-making power. That's going to have to come from the staff - particularly the portions of the staff that the users and gutterites are skeptical of - taking actions to change their minds and restore faith.
It means something unexpected. A change of approach. If you want forgiveness from the userbase - forgive them, first, and act accordingly. You kill drama with kindness.
Right now, it looks more like a Cold War out there. Espionage, spy-hunting, talking about clandestine activities, gossiping behind one another's backs - that's what I mean when I say there wasn't any scuttlebutt to leak, back then. This is not how you move forward from this and stop the CI drama.
What could the staff do to patch things up?
1. Unban the gutterities. Every last one of them. The entire affair was a travesty of errors with much blame upon both sides, and the gutter itself is history once Curse takes over anyways. Even if you think justice is being served, from a purely pragmatic standpoint, you're much better converting them back into friends and productive members than continuing this clandestine warfare. Use your time and resources wisely. Quit spending so much time fighting such a small number of members and bring them back onto your side, as they were last winter. It's no coincidence that the site was largely quiet when the gutterites were left in peace. A simple thing, but people miss it.
Treat them better than they deserve or expect. That's how a stranger turns back into a friend.
2. Quit being distracted chasing the leaks, and quit giving them so many questionable things TO leak. There are a lot of people writing things in the lounge as if the userbase is the enemy, and as if the leak doesn't actually exist. It does, and they aren't.
The staff needs to crack down on all that crap, because first of all, it's inappropriate for moderators to descend to complaining about the userbase. It's no different from the reason that the user X thread was destroyed. And two, purely pragmatically, why are you letting people write things that only throw fuel on the fire? Get rid of it! Crack down and wield some righteous admin authority.
3. Bring back good people onto the staff, that people in the userbase have confidence in. Not me. Belgareth would be amazing, as either a lounge consultant or a mod. He has experience, he's helped keep things calm, he has wonderful priorities. There's others like him out there (there's a long list), and they're under-represented on the staff right now. They don't feel welcome. That has to change.
I know that there's a number of people on the staff who are doing a double-take. And I know that admin is uncomfortable with making decisions that a large bloc of the lower staff disagree with. I could name names, but that serves no purpose. But I think we're all aware of the truth that the lounge itself is deeply divided. There's the old school, and the new school, and while the new school hold most of the keys to power, they're deferring to the vocal old school faction amongst the staff. Many good staff members have left - some have contemplated leaving. Some continue to relay through private channels how frustrated they are with the situation. They feel as though there isn't someone to represent or speak for them forcefully inside the lounge - and often there isn't.
The last time the staff was plagued with a crisis of leadership, change began when a handful of people like Nai and Harkius started pushing for changes from inside the lounge - and never gave up. These days - how many people are pushing hard for change? How many of them are left? Who's there to help the staff find its way? Too many of them are burnt out, or sidelined.
And so many of the staff continue to push for old ways of doing things and looking at things, the ways that MikeyG now believes were a mistake. I know that admin doesn't believe in that way of doing things - but they also haven't challenged the people on staff who DO still believe in it. And as a result, because they want to lead in a style that takes those opinions into account, that group has taken on an extraordinary and unprecedented power to shape the site's policy, because they are willing to be vocal and go to the mats for their ideas.
But we've seen the results of those ideas. And we've also seen the results of a different way of doing things back in January when we had people like Yukes, and the gutterites, and Kraj, and so many other strong voices speaking up to fight for the userbase. Keep on writing it off to ego talking if you want - say it was a fluke that things ran so smoothly. But it has nothing to do with any special or amazing talents of any of us who were involved - and it should hardly be considered an impossible task to run a frickkin' card game site without it exploding-but it was a hell of a lot better way to do things.
And it worked. Those of you who were there remember. We had years and years of CI drama before this year, then three months where everything changed completely around and people were actually happy. But we've lost too many of the people who were part of making that era happen. And now we're where we are today - much like CI was when I first laid eyes on it, except more intense: because now people's expectations are higher than they used to be. They know it can be better, because it has been better.
Things ran better in December and January and February, and they ran better because the staff had a different philosophy and style of management. It was nothing amazing or special, but it worked. We need to bring it back, and that starts with having people on board who will support a better way of doing things, and have a civil conversation with those who disagree with them. They want to come on board and help. Let them. Count me out until I've earned trust, but let others step in and take on that role.
4. Idealism. Yes, this is a card game forum. But we want it to be a pleasant card game forum, right? One in which people aren't harassed by staff, or harassed off the staff, or harassed for being staff. And that starts with good leadership, and good leadership means espousing ideals that people believe in and have confidence in. Ideals like serving the userbase being the one and only objective that you care about. Not leaks, not security, not even catering to Curse.
Nai already gets this - his candor and dedication to the userbase throughout all of this has been heroic, and not to denigrate anyone else's contributions, but Nai has been an unceasing and tremendous advocate for the userbase. It was a huge risk to come out with the truth regarding Curse - but he did it anyways, because it was the right thing to do for the sake of the userbase and that was the #1 objective.
You need more people like that. Belgareth is one of many. There are few better moves you could possibly make than to bring him on board as a lounge consultant, and I defy anyone who thinks otherwise to come out into the open, instead of whispering in the lounge where no one can counter the argument, and tell me why they disagree.
It's not impossible to end the CI warfare. It's been done before, and it can be done again, and you have the power to do it, if only you'll use it.
Az, I know you were in Pegs with me. We both worked to fix the rift between the members of the Gutter and the members of the Staff. I asked for something back then. I usually do. Small little somethings that are needed in order to fix the problem. And that request still holds.
It needs to go both ways. Simple as that.
The userbase wants to be understood, they want their voice heard and acknowledged. I've worked for that for a long time. But this isn't being sent the other way. It's a constant barrage of 'you're not doing it right, I could do better'.
I'm happy to apologize to the userbase for my failures. I'll continue to do it. The Gutter compromise should have moved faster, for instance. We should have been more open about things.
I'm happy to apologize for my mistakes, the grief I've caused people. Will those that have caused me grief apologize back and understand their part?
You're asking, in this post, for the admins to just forge on ahead without listening to those on the staff that disagree with us. But the admins have been yelled at before for following our vision for the site and not listening to the mods. Or not listening to the userbase. Every time we change our direction, every time we try to change how we do things, there's a vocal outcry. This is no different.
I'll tell you what I don't want to do: I don't want to simply ignore people. I want to convince them that my ideas are good. I want to convince them that my hope for this site is the way to go. And THAT is the way to go, my friend. Not ignore people. Or bulldoze over them. Convince them.
I have failed to attempt to do so in the past. I'm working on doing it more in the future. But it takes time, and sometimes time is something we don't have.
And these good people, Az? The ones you want us to bring back? You can feel free to name some. I can too. And some of the best ones, some of those that I wish did not step down? They stepped down because they were tired of their work going for naught.
Az, this isn't just the staff. This is everyone. This is the entire group, staff and CI poster and Gutter member. All of us. All of us need to change how we're doing things. It's on all sides, all of us have faults.
I'm willing to work with you. Are you willing to work with me?
My helpdesk should you need me.
2. Good advice to a point, but avoiding posting things to leak isn't too different from avoiding serious discussion. Look at the most recent example: since the origin of the issue was a communication from Curse, the only way to avoid it would have been not to involve the regular mods in the discussions about the sale.
3. Good idea, but to my knowledge they're already trying to do this.
4. Agreed, but idealism always needs to be balanced with pragmatism.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
One of the rallying cries in the Gutter conflict was that the Gutter was being given unfair treatment "because Gutter." Giving the Gutter preferential treatment "because Gutter" is no better.
Of course I am, Nai. And when I say I want people on the staff to fight for ideas that work, I don't mean that I want them to bulldoze people. You know that was never I how I operated. But I would hold a conversation with people and keep at it until I admitted that they had a better idea than I did, or we reached a consensus together, or they left the conversation.
And I'd be thrilled to work with you. I never really stopped. But at the same time, there's limits to what I can do from here, and here is where I need to remain for the time being.
But somebody has to get in there and do the function that I did, once before. To start those threads in the ML. To keep politely talking and pushing for little incremental changes - even when you feel like you're being ignored or talking to a wall.
Some of my ideas above may not be that good. They may need tweaking or scrapped. But too often it feels like a lot of mods want to huddle in the ML and keep most of the meaningful conversations there. And that's not working so hot. So somebody, not me, needs to get in there and make those healthy conversations starting happening again. Civilly, but firmly.
But while saying it has to come from both sides would be fair - it's not a proactive strategy, and it's going to fail. We all want this to work, but the staff is the only organized, policy-making group in this mix. The gutter is a confederation of rebels, and the userbase is even less loosely organized than that. We all respond to where the staff leads us.
That means the onus of fixing this is on your shoulders. You're the only people who can.
--
Switching gears.
Fnord is someone else who I think would be an excellent candidate. Jobie. Binary. I could think of others, given time. Jeff and Silver would have been terrific, if they had been available. Sene, when he's ready. And there's a number of other ex-staff who would be qualified - but who may or may not want on board. Hell, I think Rian was one of the very best globals this site ever had, and the way things have played out there was a tragedy.
--
On another separate tack, I imagine there are things that could be done to eliminate at least one of the leaks that we haven't thought about. Amnesty won't work - Megs and I have discussed why that model just isn't going to fly here. But what about trading reforms, in exchange for turning in and accepting de-modding or even the full-range of penalties? I don't think there's a good way to actually unmask them, but if you can find a win-win deal, maybe that can work.
EDIT:
It's probably flawed. I'm just stretching for some kind of meaningful gesture the staff could make that shows their good faith, that would actually mean something to them.
I'd have brought the info to the public as soon as it started to leak. Anything that juicy wasn't going to stay hidden for long. The worries about incomplete info were overblown. When you don't have enough info, most people simply tend to wait until they have more. But when you keep info from them...well, look what happened here.
Not trying very hard. A number of choices face potential opposition by lower staff that hasn't been fully talked through, and I think certain talent the staff should actively court. (Again, not me.)
Idealism is pragmatic. Most pragmatists never learn that lesson.
While the staff works on that ideal, while we shift gears and work towards that utopia that you and I both want? The folks that post here need to cool off. Go play some Magic, a game we all revolve around. We need to stop putting focus and endless discussions for every single issue.
When it came to WCT, I asked for time. And oddly enough, when given time, we got it done. I ask again for time. I ask that people not make federal issues out of every mistake the mod team seems to make. I ask that I don't have to see a "This person is a horrible mod and needs to step down" every week.
I ask that the users I work for put their faith in me. Simply because I put my faith in them.
My helpdesk should you need me.
If the trend wasn't so grim, and things didn't continue to spiral from one incident to the next, we'd have that time. But there's too much refusal to even engage in conversations with the people that will help the staff avoid more potential drama. There's too many problems that are ongoing, and unresolved, and easy solutions that simply need to be put into effect.
The course we're on isn't working.
We need a better strategy than just waiting for more time to pass - and seeing more mods flame out. The appeal to the users to back off and not get mad at things that make them mad is going to be futile. They won't, people being what they are.
Its not impossible to stop all this, but it is going to take something more drastic than the status quo. Don't we have enough burn out as is? Aren't we ready to seriously work towards an end to this by now?
1) Azrael somehow convinced staff to negotiate with the Gutterites the first time it was seemingly arbitrarily closed. One of the primary criticisms of staff now is that staff was negotiating with the Gutter with bad faith. Wouldn't it have been easier to just close the Gutter the first time and be done with it?
2) Azrael may have inadvertently caused the "leak". Azrael and the Gutter pushed for greater lower staff participation in site policy making. You've shared and gathered input regarding the Curse transaction with lower staff. Look where it got you.
3) Azrael is the source of significant Community Issues drama and staff turnover. Azrael made the highly controversial "The Gloves Are Off" thread. He called for Rianalnn, despite Rianalnn being largely innocent, to step down and he got it. Now he's calling for staff members to step down again? At one time, the Gutter loved {MikeyG}. They loved Rianalnn. They loved Galspanic. It's all flavor of the month with users.
Now Azrael is claiming there is this massive "CI War" and that it can only be resolved with an esoteric ritual of negotiation, compromise, and staff resignations. Think before you act and think carefully. I feel the greatest issue with staff has always been its inability to think critically. Rather than dismiss bad arguments, it often validates them merely on basis of popularity amongst users.
Perhaps try a general reset in relations. At the time the Curse deal goes through, both of the following happen:
1. All bans, warnings, and infractions are erased (except for the most serious things, such as ripping). This includes infraction histories.
2. A general agreement by the users to forgive all staff for any past offenses.
Basically, everyone — user and staff — gets a clean slate. Going forward the rules are enforced as normal (and staff may be criticized for actions they take), but anything from before the sale is treated as though it never happened.
Perhaps you're on to something here.
Periodic staff vs. nonstaff tournaments? Or even better, have teams, each composed of both staff and nonstaff. Get Curse to sponsor it....
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
First off I think this is unfair to Az. The points he did were done in good faith and for good reasons. It's like blaming the doctor when he saves someone's life who goes on to murder someone.
Second I think the biggest problem is Hannes and Curse. The root of this problem is the upcoming potential change in ownership, but both sides have yet to say anything on this. And the staff is not in a position to provide clarity on the ownership or future of the site. And worse yet it appears, via reading between the lines, that the sale is on hold until this gets worked out. But this can't get worked out until someone in the ownership position does something.
You want to know how to start to resolve this. Have Hannes and Curse release a statement on the sale, and if it is going to go through have Curse release a vision statement on the site. I don't care who you have to wake up, chase down, or do slightly off-kilter acts to, but this is how you resolve problems caused by a change in ownership, you get the owners involved.
The other problem here is the staff is trying to fix things they have no control over. It's like the office worker trying to fix a floundering company, he can help, but he doesn't have the power to do what needs to be done. This isn't an office worker problem Sally is having, it's a CEO level. We aren't talking procedures or bureaucracy, we are talking vision and future. The staff are floundering here because they are just the office workers.
The fact that the site has prospered for so long with an owner who for the most part is non-existent is amazing and speaks to what the staff has done. But there comes a day when you need the alpha and omega, not the beta and psis. And the day we needed an owner the most has past many a day ago. Until we get one this will not be resolved and will continue to fester with false hope and delusion.
However, I will echo something that I said before. If there was any actual damage, the greatest victims are a handful of banned members who were trying to fight for something they care for when months of hard work, reason, and logic failed them.
Personally I appreciate everything you've tried to do since I returned to MTGS and the Gutter in June. It's all been very Romeo and Juliet, I think. Tempers are still high, and people say things that may be discouraging, but I wish you luck in your efforts here.
Excuse me for my cynicism and chiming in but I don't think we can go back and we certainly can't repeat this again.
You may ask for the status quo ante and détente but you won't get that and most certainly not overnight. Trust me, mate;
I was from the future.Azrael, admirable as always... I think. :happy?::thumbsup:
I wouldn't say my views on this have ever changed. I came to the staff espousing them, pushed for them until the day I left.
Kinda cuts a few ways. On the one hand, if someone's tenure is not marked by crises, they may not receive much credit for the good things they do. On the other hand, if someone does go through a crisis in a leadership position, their reputation can either drop dramatically or rise, depending on how it turns out.
Now, the original gutter crisis being averted was about 60% Yukora and Annorax, and about 40% lower moderator uprising. The most important figure in that was definitely Yukes, not me.
But if the idea is, "Azrael was able to favorably distinguish himself in a crisis and then basked in the sunshine of that event and others haven't had that chance", I can't really agree with that characterization. There have been plenty of crises popping up, and I don't think I received the primary credit for that turn-around, which rightfully belongs to Yukes.
But after that, the three of us together went on to do a lot of good stuff together. It was what we did afterwards, once we were free to finally act upon the long-term problems and the culture afflicting the site for years.
And more than anything else, the problem with the MTGS staff was culture, not personnel.
I remember when mods like CK, and Rian a little bit, were spitting mad at the userbase, how ungrateful they were, and how much constant unjustified criticism and complaining there was. This was in 2011, mind, not 2012. And people always said that would never change.
But change it did. And people like CK and Rian saw that, and started feeling better about being a part of the site, started to rethink the way they handled themselves, changed their minds about how things had to be. They went from being burnt out and bitter with the userbase, to being glad to be on stafff again. Without firing a single person, the dynamic of the site was changed. People were hopeful. Happy. Satisfied.
But it comes from the philosophy set by the leadership, and trickles down from there.
I would absolutely disagree with the immediate unbanning of banned users though, as long as it is a special treatment of Gutter members. Because making exceptions for certain users and usergroups isn't the way forward, in my opinion. Banned users that were banned unjustly should be unbanned, but if the bans were just, I don't understand why they should be reversed.
Some random notes & suggestions for staff as to how to move forward though, while I have the time (I'm on a train right now, and I only have ~15 minutes until I arrive):
Anyone that took this guy seriously can go ahead and stop doing that. I think it is fair to point out that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Yes
See, there is an issue here:
It is reasonable for the staff to say that gutter members broke the rules, they did, and therefore the onus lies with staff.
It is also reasonable for the members to say that the gutter members only broke rules due to inconsistent or sub-par moderation and communication combined with a bit of bad luck.
Oh god please! And I agree with the unnecessary drama thing. There are either one or two threads in the top 5 in CI that don't exactly need to exist. That adds to drama.
I've been asking for clearer rules for a while, and so has Az if I recall.
When this was suggested (although as a watchdog/ombudsman group) before the existence of lounge consultant, it was met with what I can only call vitriol from normal mods. I'm still in favor though.
I think that this shift in mindset would honestly solve most of the escalation. It wouldn't solve the original issues, but it'd keep them from exploding into dramabombs.
And this, as the corollary to the above is also true. Users don't need to assume the staff is agendizing and is out to 'get you' all the time. It just plain isn't true.
I was never a member of staff or the gutter and have no allegiance. I use my judgement to determine if something makes sense or not and I have posted in CI when I had issues that affected me personally.
I would love to see these types of changes.
I believe that all the above answers the majority if not all the issues that I have had. That being said, from my personal view the site seems to be operating quite well for me. Maybe theres so much moderator attention on the "leak" that the rest of the site isn't being micromanaged or maybe there is a turn for the better in more of a hands off approach by the staff.
As a user I want to be able to post my ideas, discuss them with others, discuss their ideas. The last month has been pretty good, I do not have the same type of paranoia when checking my inbox that there might be another infraction issued.
I absolutely refuse to get involved in the "leak" thread because it does not concern me. Keep the "drama" confined to the CI, and the rest of the site running fine. Thanks for reading.
End of last year I was frustrated with the upper staff culture, not the community (you even quote me saying as much, here). I don't recall your version of events at all, Az, but I do recall all the cleanup we had to do after you kicked the rules over & then left.
I disagree, sir, and that's what worries me. In Gloves, you and I fought together, and you worked hard, coming to a compromise that benefited everyone. Now I see you issuing what amount to ultimatums, dire warnings, and the whole thing comes off as, well, as a stump speech a week before the election. Understand, I don't actually ask this as an attack, either on your suggestions or your character, in fact I admire the fact that you're seeking solutions instead of just pointing, once again, to the problem, but what you suggest just flies in the face of what you've said before... wasn't it only a couple of weeks ago that you were saying the Gutter members wouldn't come back even if allowed to?
I know that this schism has grown, to the point where it's almost impossible to see the other side clearly.. hell, in just a few months I've watched my persona here collapse from a man of some integrity, capable of making a speech or two of his own, to little more than an impotent troll barely able to scrawl out a quip, taking actions that try so desperately to bridge that chasm that it must have seemed suicidal. I too, weary quickly of a staff that constantly, always asks for time and more time, time to consult and discuss and brain
burststorm and paint their own set of fences (in pink, no less); I wish they would find a new bargaining chip....but then you had to go and talk about idealism. It reminded me of another man who has much to say on the topic of enthusiasm [link NSFW for use of strong language], and it gave me great pause. The Father of the Gutter spent a great deal of his time here banging his head against this wall of Us vs. Them, and to a great degree failed. It is time we stopped following in his footsteps, and accepted that our place isn't to try to sneak into the Mod Lounge, get in there with a bowl of soup and maybe tell them a little something about Jesus. To do otherwise is to bring down our previous ideals.
What we can do from over here, however, and this is so important it might be the lynchpin of the continuation of the site, is to stop listening to the leak. I know that's hard, so very hard, but waving privileged information in the staff's face is only going to make these leaks harder to suppress, make their violation more painful.. if we ignore them, however, if we have trust that the staff, inexperienced as it is, can lead us forward, we take away every iota of the mole's power, and our strong voices will finally be able to be heard above their whispers.
Erm, /soapbox
I apologize; I mainly recalled you being disillusioned and sitting on the fence regarding many of the reforms for a while before changing your mind. CK was certainly more disenchanted with the userbase in particular and my mental impressions of you during that time period must have blurred together.
As to cleanup, I recall Galspanic saying something along the lines of having problems enforcing rules that were no longer on the books. That struck me as a curious thing, since if the rule was taken off the books, why did we have moderators still seeking to enforce it...
We only outright eliminated backseat moderation; I can't recall anything else off-hand that was completely ditched. We reworked the rule against advertising to solicitation and reworked spam and made a bunch of formatting changes. And all of this was certainly open to extensive debate and discussion at the time.
And I do regret having left as quickly as I did. However, my RL during that period was very hectic, and that has a way of taking precedence. I also had confidence you guys could handle it. You, Yukes, and Sene made a great team together, and in those first months after I left userbase/staff relations were just as solid as the ones before, as far as I can tell.
Perhaps we should just be lobbying to draft Yukes back into admin, since he's been the common denominator of success throughout all this and things didn't really go off the rails until pretty soon after he left. *muses* He not only had good priorities, but very good political instincts.
Mmm, I'm not really sold that the first suggestion re:gutterites is ideal. But certainly, there are things that can be done in a similar vein. The principle behind the idea is a good one.
I've just heard the refrain again and again that the userbase is part of the problem, the userbase needs to work together with the staff, etc. etc.
And sure, in a perfectly fair world, the userbase would own up to their mistakes and all the hysterics would end. They ARE at fault. They ARE part of the problem. They SHOULD work hand in hand with the stuff to fix things.
But does anyone see a sign of that happening anytime soon en masse? I don't - and I'm worried that we seem to have people who are pinning their hopes on that happening sometime soon.
And that means that if things are going to get better, the staff are going to need to be the better people and step it up with some solid new ideas. If we wait for all the individual members of the userbase to be better people on their own and dump the hysterics, we'll be waiting for a while.
When others fall short, leaders have to step up to fill the gap. Pragmatically, that's how you have to adapt to an imperfect world and the imperfect people living in it. By relying on the good people amongst you to help reach a better way, and bringing everyone else along with them.
I am very fond of Yukora and I think he would be great. I dunno how active & dedicated he has been though - that was my concern (and only concern) when I talked with him about it a couple of months ago.
Absolutely fair. But it doesn't hurt to try, does it?
Anyway, yes. Change in users' approach should not be completely necessary to move forward, but it would help a lot, obviously.
Ah, but that's the problem, innit? Staff turnover has been happening so fast recently that as soon as someone shows even a glimmer of integrity, they become part of the leadership. That, in fact, was your point, that Staff Culture has gone out of control... made more worrisome when you consider there are precious few Grey Knights left to defend those of the muggle userbase who can disagree with staff in a gracious way.
Edit- Hence, leak.
Actually, Sene, if the last few months have taught us anything, yes, sometimes it does hurt to try.