Does it matter whether such words are necessary? There are plenty of linguistic elements which aren't necessary, such as contractions or the passive voice. In some places, the use of these is discouraged or even forbidden. But I'm sure you'll agree that it isn't a good idea to ban them, or consider those who use them to be unintelligent or lazy.
The proper discussion is how the value (if any) of a certain linguistic element compares to the harm (if any) the use of it causes.
The post I replied to stated rather clearly that the poster believed them to be necessary. Hence my response. His opinion was that they were, my opinion was that they weren't necessary. Perhaps you should respond to the post I responded to and ask him why he felt it was necessary.
My straight forward and blunt response:
NO ITS NOT NECESSARY.
My more detailed response:
I consider people who are able to use other non-swear words to speak to others and about intelligent topics of discussion as being more intelligent than those that cannot, or are simply too lazy to use a more acceptable word. There is rarely ever a need to actually use those words. Our society has made them more acceptable these days, only because of how far as a society we have fallen. There are still, however, plenty of people, regardless of background that still hold onto the idea that our society can be better than that, and we are not in the wrong for holding that belief.
And, for the record I know PLENTY of good parents, who do an excellent job taking care of their kids and raising them, who feel similarly. Some might say that sheltering their children from such things is wrong, however, I believe its better to let children (oh I dont know) actually BE CHILDREN, rather than forcing them to grow up so quickly. But, Im getting a little off track.
At the end of the day, such words are not neccessary and I believe that the adjustments that Nai and other admins/mods are suggesting as potentially being acceptable are a fine way to find a balance.
If you want an all or nothing situation, then youll never get it. A compromise was suggested to potentially allow linking to articles that may use the word, depending upon if the content otherwise would be deemed acceptable.
Great works of art use profanity. When I was 13, I read Slaughterhouse-Five, because it was assigned by my public school. And parents are trying to prevent their kids from seeing those same words online? That's silly enough. But then, for this website to not only assist in overzealous parenting but serve to impede the ability of adults to use the words they want to use, is even sillier.
We already have enough flack out of users for moderator discretion. Allowing people to post anything, and then infracting the posts we don't want, is just begging for even further problems.
If anyone ever wanted a two-sentence description of why MTGS is a bad forum, here it is.
While I agree with your (KCW) statement of the problem (much of the conversation around here is directed between young adolescents, and there's a suspiciously high noise-signal ratio), your proposed solution is flawed. Your argument, KCW, boils down to: If you let them curse, they will come.
Aside from the fact that it's a bad argument, there's also a problem that there is no guarantee that it would work. Yes, sometimes adults use bad language. Even in real life. However, the need for it on message boards (I'd go so far as to say especially on message boards) is dubious at best. Message boards, unlike say...chat rooms, are a place for considered, composed dialogue. While not as formal, perhaps, as a series of articles on the Editorial pages of your local newspaper, it is certainly capable of being on a higher level than, "Hurr hurr hurr...this card is good. I need four NAOW!." The fact that a remarkable proportion of the posts on the board comprise exactly this does not mean that allowing what we do not allow will help. In the future I see, that will merely be replaced with "This card is ****ing awesome. I need four NAOW to *****slap people!". Not a great improvement. In any way.
The best (albeit the most frustratingly incremental and laborious) method to get people to post better is to post better yourself and to encourage them to do likewise. Constructive criticism (in private), positive reinforcement (publicly or privately), etc. are much more effective than waving the Swear Wand and expecting the level of dialogue to magically increase.
Harkius
Well, ideally, it would be paired with a policy change where people are punished not for their word choice, but for making bad posts. Worthless posts like the ones you mentioned would be the ones that lead to suspensions, not ones that use synonyms for "sex." This is how to attract a community that has good discussions: by pushing out people that don't. I realize that this is a revolutionary idea (ie I am not being sarcastic in this statement and exaggeratedly rolling my eyes as I type that; I mean that it would be a vast overhaul of the current rules).
I admit that the previous paragraph is outside the scope of this thread. However, I believe that the burden of proof for showing that the curse filter is a positive for MTGS should be on those supporting it, because such a filter is so uncommon on forums intended for adult discussion. The null hypothesis should be that such filters have no impact on post quality; the fact that it is the status quo should not shift the burden onto those (such as myself) opposed to it.
I want to preface this by saying that I thought you were a great forum member. I was sorry to see you get banned, and I hoped that, when they announced the trial ban lifts, you'd be getting unbanned... And, thus, I was glad to see you unbanned.
But now, I kind of think that may have been a bad idea.
This site works rather well, all things considered. Part of that is because we have these filters and limits on topics and what not. I'm of the opinion, actually, that there should be more limits, not less. (I've argued before for not needing a Debate section, for example.) There's enough chaos on this forum - mostly due to its size - without adding in extra stuff that requires extra work from an unpaid moderation staff.
I'm sorry that you feel MTGS is too restrictive. Why did you come back, then? Why did you think it was unreasonable to be asked to modify your old custom title? I would have been gracious that I was welcomed back otherwise, shut my mouth, and moved on with things. All I see is that you've come back on a crusade to turn MTGS into, basically, a copy of the forum that the Gutter exiles started. Why don't you just go there? Seems like that's a perfect forum for you.
Nai has even conceded some of your points, but he's right; you're not willing to meet him halfway. To quote one of my favorite movie villains: "Your bargaining posture is highly dubious."
I'm just saying, man.
Edit: rian and Sene can vouch that I drop swear words in my normal conversation like nobody's business. But this is a forum, and it has rules, so I obey them.
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Now playing Transformers: Legends. 27-time top tier finisher and admin of the TFL Wikia site.
FWIW, Something Awful has a censor that only applies when one is logged out.
Something Awful also has a pretty good way to keep youngsters out of their forums - they charge 10 bucks for an account.
Hey, there's an idea. The "MTGS After Dark" account. For a small fee, swear words are uncensored, you get access to a "special" NSFW forum, and special "members only" admin webcam sessions on Fridays.
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Retrodrome!
Hoi, hoi, u embleer hrair
M'saion ulé hraka vair.
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The post I replied to stated rather clearly that the poster believed them to be necessary. Hence my response. His opinion was that they were, my opinion was that they weren't necessary. Perhaps you should respond to the post I responded to and ask him why he felt it was necessary.
Great works of art use profanity. When I was 13, I read Slaughterhouse-Five, because it was assigned by my public school. And parents are trying to prevent their kids from seeing those same words online? That's silly enough. But then, for this website to not only assist in overzealous parenting but serve to impede the ability of adults to use the words they want to use, is even sillier.
If anyone ever wanted a two-sentence description of why MTGS is a bad forum, here it is.
Well, ideally, it would be paired with a policy change where people are punished not for their word choice, but for making bad posts. Worthless posts like the ones you mentioned would be the ones that lead to suspensions, not ones that use synonyms for "sex." This is how to attract a community that has good discussions: by pushing out people that don't. I realize that this is a revolutionary idea (ie I am not being sarcastic in this statement and exaggeratedly rolling my eyes as I type that; I mean that it would be a vast overhaul of the current rules).
I admit that the previous paragraph is outside the scope of this thread. However, I believe that the burden of proof for showing that the curse filter is a positive for MTGS should be on those supporting it, because such a filter is so uncommon on forums intended for adult discussion. The null hypothesis should be that such filters have no impact on post quality; the fact that it is the status quo should not shift the burden onto those (such as myself) opposed to it.
kingcobweb
Infracted for Trolling.
-:ER:
I want to preface this by saying that I thought you were a great forum member. I was sorry to see you get banned, and I hoped that, when they announced the trial ban lifts, you'd be getting unbanned... And, thus, I was glad to see you unbanned.
But now, I kind of think that may have been a bad idea.
This site works rather well, all things considered. Part of that is because we have these filters and limits on topics and what not. I'm of the opinion, actually, that there should be more limits, not less. (I've argued before for not needing a Debate section, for example.) There's enough chaos on this forum - mostly due to its size - without adding in extra stuff that requires extra work from an unpaid moderation staff.
I'm sorry that you feel MTGS is too restrictive. Why did you come back, then? Why did you think it was unreasonable to be asked to modify your old custom title? I would have been gracious that I was welcomed back otherwise, shut my mouth, and moved on with things. All I see is that you've come back on a crusade to turn MTGS into, basically, a copy of the forum that the Gutter exiles started. Why don't you just go there? Seems like that's a perfect forum for you.
Nai has even conceded some of your points, but he's right; you're not willing to meet him halfway. To quote one of my favorite movie villains: "Your bargaining posture is highly dubious."
I'm just saying, man.
Edit: rian and Sene can vouch that I drop swear words in my normal conversation like nobody's business. But this is a forum, and it has rules, so I obey them.
The MirroCube - 420 card Mirrodin themed cube
And if I've offended you, I'm sorry, but maybe you need to be offended. But here's my apology and one more thing...
Something Awful also has a pretty good way to keep youngsters out of their forums - they charge 10 bucks for an account.
Hey, there's an idea. The "MTGS After Dark" account. For a small fee, swear words are uncensored, you get access to a "special" NSFW forum, and special "members only" admin webcam sessions on Fridays.
Hoi, hoi, u embleer hrair
M'saion ulé hraka vair.