We have old threads that anyone can search out and post. Those are the evidence you need. Right?
Not necessarily, Galspanic. It provides evidence that "sets can be mapped, and there are unscrupulous individuals who want to scam you, beware". Short of actually providing a completed box map, there's no real way to prove or disprove "This set specifically has been mapped, and there will be unscrupulous individuals who want to scam you, beware".
tl;dr: Without providing a map, there's not really a way for individuals to know whether this particular set has been mapped or not.
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Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
Since every set in the last 4-5 years has been mapped isn't it safe to assume that it is being done somewhere?
But really, what does that have to do with us allowing people to do it here? It seems like the risk/cost of doing it here is greater than the reward for showing people specific rare/mythic print runs. Nobody needs that specific information posted here to say that boxes are mapped.
And yes, people can say things that aren't true, but why do we need this kind of hard proof?
That said, I dont really approve of the move personally, but I understand the reasons you wouldnt want box mapping discussion here. I would even go so far as to lock all previous box mapping thread and find a way to direct skeptics to it and avoid 'yes it can' 'no it cant' arguments several have described as potentially happening.
Maybe even steal or have an article written describing the general process in a way people understand.
Are you volunteering?
I would love to have the information out there for people to read. I plan on posting something in the Market Street Tips and Tricks section just because we saw a lot of people that posted in the box mapping threads selling loose packs over the last couple years... made me nervous and the only safe solution there was banning the trading and sale of packs.
Since every set in the last 4-5 years has been mapped isn't it safe to assume that it is being done somewhere?
It's safe to assume that it's being attempted. If you don't allow people to try to do it or link to those that are, how will we know whether WoTC has fixed the problem?
But really, what does that have to do with us allowing people to do it here? It seems like the risk/cost of doing it here is greater than the reward for showing people specific rare/mythic print runs. Nobody needs that specific information posted here to say that boxes are mapped.
And yes, people can say things that aren't true, but why do we need this kind of hard proof?
Surely you'd agree that we need some kind of proof and shouldn't just take everything people say on faith. What proof would you suggest, if not the actual map?
Anecdotal evidence in the box mapping discussion thread? "I heard the box map was done. My friend opened 12 packs yesterday and got all chase cards (pic)"
I really don't get this criticism. If somebody is so asinine as to read discussions about box mapping, get all "skeptical," and then go buy loose boosters without doing even cursory research with Google, don't they deserve to lose money? Does that even count as a scam? MTGS isn't the only place in the world with information about Magic the Gathering or box maps. +1 to Galspanic here.
Completely agree with euknemarchon and Galspanic. If someone tells me "Hey, be careful buying those loose packs, DGM has been mapped and all the good stuff might already be gone from that box", the onus is on me at that point to look into the issue further. If I disregard that warning and get burned, well, perhaps I'll be more careful next time.
It's good and all to have rules but a definition or context would help in understanding and interpreting the rules, even if it's very clear to everyone (apparently not myself, however).
Since every set in the last 4-5 years has been mapped isn't it safe to assume that it is being done somewhere?
There was an 18 month period, from NPH to M13 where box mapping was thought of as unsolvable. A new strategy was discovered, which led to the current situation. I would say knowing whether or not a map exists for a set relevant information. If we want to agree to have a post every time a map is solved to get that information and a warning out, that's fine.
My biggest concern here is that there are a large number of people in this community who do enjoy the threads, and do use the maps for legitimate reasons. I have no way of finding those people and pointing them in the right direction now. I can't make a post telling them where to go, and I don't think PMing everyone who has ever posted a box list is reasonable, or within the rules.
This rules change came down so quickly that there has been no way to get a message out to the people who want the information, because any such message is a rules violation.
It's good and all to have rules but a definition or context would help in understanding and interpreting the rules, even if it's very clear to everyone (apparently not myself, however).
If that's the discussion by which you guys came up with the policy, it'd be good to link to that thread in Forum Rules, no?
Box mapping is figuring out what rares/mythics will be where in a box and posting the "key" to the set. I appreciate the desire to understand and be a part of things, but the decision was made with the Senior Staff with feedback from the Local Mods and CI thread.
There was an 18 month period, from NPH to M13 where box mapping was thought of as unsolvable. A new strategy was discovered, which led to the current situation. I would say knowing whether or not a map exists for a set relevant information. If we want to agree to have a post every time a map is solved to get that information and a warning out, that's fine.
My biggest concern here is that there are a large number of people in this community who do enjoy the threads, and do use the maps for legitimate reasons. I have no way of finding those people and pointing them in the right direction now. I can't make a post telling them where to go, and I don't think PMing everyone who has ever posted a box list is reasonable, or within the rules.
This rules change came down so quickly that there has been no way to get a message out to the people who want the information, because any such message is a rules violation.
Posting that an edition has been mapped is fine. Providing proof in the form of a map is not. So we should be good there.
There are a lot of people here that enjoyed it, yes. And a lot that thought it was morally wrong, criminal, shady, and any number of negative words. We had to look at the situation and run a cost:benefit on it. While there may be some that use it for curiosity or providing cheaper drafts for their friends, the potential for ripping people off is too high. You can't post where to get box maps but I assume Google still can. There are plenty of off-site ways to continue what people were doing before without putting MTGS in the way.
I maintain that this was a wrong decision. MTGS is taking away the ability to get on a level playing field with unscrupulous sellers.
I don't really understand this logic. You don't need to know how to make a proxy to spot one, you don't need to know the box map to not buy loose packs on ebay.
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I don't really understand this logic. You don't need to know how to make a proxy to spot one, you don't need to know the box map to not buy loose packs on ebay.
I'm talking brick and mortar stores here.
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Box mapping is figuring out what rares/mythics will be where in a box and posting the "key" to the set. I appreciate the desire to understand and be a part of things, but the decision was made with the Senior Staff with feedback from the Local Mods and CI thread.
Hey, Gal, thanks for your reply.
You can work out where certain rares and mythics are? Wow, ok.
As for the other thing, oh, ok. I thought it was an actual discussion in the open, in CI, and not behind the veil, but ok.
Now if, and this might be way too much of an ask, the underlying logic or rationale, an adequate explanation, can be succinctly stated, that'd be great. There's nothing more unreasonable or incomprehensible than dogma or grand assumptions. Thanks for whatever effort you can put into this!
I should disclaim that I don't have a horse in this and I'm not fussed about the actual policy or its application. I just thought it'd be reasonable and kind if this were articulated such that people know what to do in a predictable, understandable manner for reasons (good/bad/other).
I maintain that this was a wrong decision. MTGS is taking away the ability to get on a level playing field with unscrupulous sellers.
There's no wrong or right, and the rest of your post, even in regard to brick-and-mortar stores, is nonsensical and illogical, no matter how much you were to expound on this.
You assume that all users are familiar with that thread or are interested in reading through all 14 pages of it. Makes no sense to me.
Why is it so hard to add the reasons to an announcement-post?
We hardly ever add a detailed reason to the rules changes here. In all of the active Box Mapping threads I posted in the OP with an explanation. It seemed to me that posting in the actual place where people would be affected - as opposed to the Site-wide Compendium, CI, or an announcement that a lot of people never see - was the best way to do it.
After talking about it, Rezombied's version seems to cover it a little more thoroughly. In future if that seems too wordy or if WotC starts making randomized Rares/Mythics I am sure it can get pared down, but for now this will work:
Any posts attempting to create a box map will be infracted and deleted. This includes, but is not limited to:
Gathering detailed box data, sharing of detailed box contents through posting or sharing files hosted offsite, posting box maps, advertising links to offsite resources for boxmapping, or sharing detailed print run information regarding tracks of rares, mythics, or foils.
Information about print runs of commons or uncommons for Limited are accepted.
Can you explain your reasoning here? I'm finding myself unable to see how knowing exactly how to box map will help at all in a brick and mortar store.
It doesn't? Fine. Let me spell it out for you.
BaM Store owner buys a booster box. Opens 2 packs for control. Sees Money Rare A is 3 packs up from his first control booster. Gets Money Rare A, sells it on. Checks the rest of the map to find Money Rares B and C and sell them on for profit. Money Rares A, B, and C are more expensive than the packs they came in. Sell the remaining 31 packs for the regular price, knowing that they contain Crap Rares worth a fraction of the Booster Value.
Syphon, what people aren't understanding (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) is why you need to know the exact box map - isn't it enough to be aware of the practice to defend yourself?
To recognize that you are getting screwed in the first place. Being aware of the practice does nothing.
"Excuse me, sir, can I take a look at the box you're pulling those packs out of and compare it to this chart that tells me exactly where all the good rare cards should be?"
"Just to make sure you're not screwing me over. You understand"
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Retrodrome!
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M'saion ulé hraka vair.
After talking about it, Rezombied's version seems to cover it a little more thoroughly. In future if that seems too wordy or if WotC starts making randomized Rares/Mythics I am sure it can get pared down, but for now this will work:
It's 2 weeks before the prerelease. A user somehow gets his hands on a box, opens it, and posts pictures of everything to the Rumor Mill. Does that break the policy? As I understand it it does, which is silly.
Syphon, what people aren't understanding (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) is why you need to know the exact box map - isn't it enough to be aware of the practice to defend yourself?
Verification.
Without the actual map, how can you be sure that the person who claimed that the set has been mapped isn't lying?
Being able to buy loose boosters is very convenient for many people. There's no need to avoid doing so unless the set has actually been mapped. The map is the proof that this has happened.
Not necessarily, Galspanic. It provides evidence that "sets can be mapped, and there are unscrupulous individuals who want to scam you, beware". Short of actually providing a completed box map, there's no real way to prove or disprove "This set specifically has been mapped, and there will be unscrupulous individuals who want to scam you, beware".
tl;dr: Without providing a map, there's not really a way for individuals to know whether this particular set has been mapped or not.
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
Have played duals? I have PucaPoints for them!
(Credit to DarkNightCavalier)
$tandard: Too poor.
Modern:
- GW Birthing Pod(?)
Legacy:
- UWR Delver
But really, what does that have to do with us allowing people to do it here? It seems like the risk/cost of doing it here is greater than the reward for showing people specific rare/mythic print runs. Nobody needs that specific information posted here to say that boxes are mapped.
And yes, people can say things that aren't true, but why do we need this kind of hard proof?
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
That said, I dont really approve of the move personally, but I understand the reasons you wouldnt want box mapping discussion here. I would even go so far as to lock all previous box mapping thread and find a way to direct skeptics to it and avoid 'yes it can' 'no it cant' arguments several have described as potentially happening.
Maybe even steal or have an article written describing the general process in a way people understand.
I would love to have the information out there for people to read. I plan on posting something in the Market Street Tips and Tricks section just because we saw a lot of people that posted in the box mapping threads selling loose packs over the last couple years... made me nervous and the only safe solution there was banning the trading and sale of packs.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
It's safe to assume that it's being attempted. If you don't allow people to try to do it or link to those that are, how will we know whether WoTC has fixed the problem?
Surely you'd agree that we need some kind of proof and shouldn't just take everything people say on faith. What proof would you suggest, if not the actual map?
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
All the arguments were there and the Admins agreed that it wasn't something we want to support anymore.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
It's good and all to have rules but a definition or context would help in understanding and interpreting the rules, even if it's very clear to everyone (apparently not myself, however).
If that's the discussion by which you guys came up with the policy, it'd be good to link to that thread in Forum Rules, no?
There was an 18 month period, from NPH to M13 where box mapping was thought of as unsolvable. A new strategy was discovered, which led to the current situation. I would say knowing whether or not a map exists for a set relevant information. If we want to agree to have a post every time a map is solved to get that information and a warning out, that's fine.
My biggest concern here is that there are a large number of people in this community who do enjoy the threads, and do use the maps for legitimate reasons. I have no way of finding those people and pointing them in the right direction now. I can't make a post telling them where to go, and I don't think PMing everyone who has ever posted a box list is reasonable, or within the rules.
This rules change came down so quickly that there has been no way to get a message out to the people who want the information, because any such message is a rules violation.
High Number Death Game
20 Questions (with Magic Cards)
Box mapping is figuring out what rares/mythics will be where in a box and posting the "key" to the set. I appreciate the desire to understand and be a part of things, but the decision was made with the Senior Staff with feedback from the Local Mods and CI thread.
Posting that an edition has been mapped is fine. Providing proof in the form of a map is not. So we should be good there.
There are a lot of people here that enjoyed it, yes. And a lot that thought it was morally wrong, criminal, shady, and any number of negative words. We had to look at the situation and run a cost:benefit on it. While there may be some that use it for curiosity or providing cheaper drafts for their friends, the potential for ripping people off is too high. You can't post where to get box maps but I assume Google still can. There are plenty of off-site ways to continue what people were doing before without putting MTGS in the way.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
I don't really understand this logic. You don't need to know how to make a proxy to spot one, you don't need to know the box map to not buy loose packs on ebay.
I'm talking brick and mortar stores here.
Can you explain your reasoning here? I'm finding myself unable to see how knowing exactly how to box map will help at all in a brick and mortar store.
My helpdesk should you need me.
You can work out where certain rares and mythics are? Wow, ok.
As for the other thing, oh, ok. I thought it was an actual discussion in the open, in CI, and not behind the veil, but ok.
Now if, and this might be way too much of an ask, the underlying logic or rationale, an adequate explanation, can be succinctly stated, that'd be great. There's nothing more unreasonable or incomprehensible than dogma or grand assumptions. Thanks for whatever effort you can put into this!
I should disclaim that I don't have a horse in this and I'm not fussed about the actual policy or its application. I just thought it'd be reasonable and kind if this were articulated such that people know what to do in a predictable, understandable manner for reasons (good/bad/other).
There's no wrong or right, and the rest of your post, even in regard to brick-and-mortar stores, is nonsensical and illogical, no matter how much you were to expound on this.
We hardly ever add a detailed reason to the rules changes here. In all of the active Box Mapping threads I posted in the OP with an explanation. It seemed to me that posting in the actual place where people would be affected - as opposed to the Site-wide Compendium, CI, or an announcement that a lot of people never see - was the best way to do it.
After talking about it, Rezombied's version seems to cover it a little more thoroughly. In future if that seems too wordy or if WotC starts making randomized Rares/Mythics I am sure it can get pared down, but for now this will work:
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
It doesn't? Fine. Let me spell it out for you.
BaM Store owner buys a booster box. Opens 2 packs for control. Sees Money Rare A is 3 packs up from his first control booster. Gets Money Rare A, sells it on. Checks the rest of the map to find Money Rares B and C and sell them on for profit. Money Rares A, B, and C are more expensive than the packs they came in. Sell the remaining 31 packs for the regular price, knowing that they contain Crap Rares worth a fraction of the Booster Value.
Monetary gain:
36x Booster Price
vs
31x Booster Price + 3x Money Rare + 1x Crap Rare.
@9909: Don't call my post nonsensical or illogical, just because you don't understand it. Get it?
"Excuse me, sir, can I take a look at the box you're pulling those packs out of and compare it to this chart that tells me exactly where all the good rare cards should be?"
"Just to make sure you're not screwing me over. You understand"
Hoi, hoi, u embleer hrair
M'saion ulé hraka vair.
It's 2 weeks before the prerelease. A user somehow gets his hands on a box, opens it, and posts pictures of everything to the Rumor Mill. Does that break the policy? As I understand it it does, which is silly.
Verification.
Without the actual map, how can you be sure that the person who claimed that the set has been mapped isn't lying?
Being able to buy loose boosters is very convenient for many people. There's no need to avoid doing so unless the set has actually been mapped. The map is the proof that this has happened.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)