I don't know if this is permissible under current rules, but it shouldn't be too hard to say "Yes, this set has been mapped as of [time]". If you don't believe me, Google is your friend. Lets those that require the additional proof go find it themselves, keeps actual maps off MTGS. At the very least, it seems a tractable middle ground.
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Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
I don't know if this is permissible under current rules, but it shouldn't be too hard to say "Yes, this set has been mapped as of [time]". If you don't believe me, Google is your friend. Lets those that require the additional proof go find it themselves, keeps actual maps off MTGS. At the very least, it seems a tractable middle ground.
Sure...but what's the point? All doing that accomplishes is wasting people's time. You're not stopping any potential evildoers from finding the maps.
Having ran/owned the magic singles collection and older non-standard box/pack collection for the shop I used to be involved with, there is one very important thing that some people need to realize when it comes to the vast majority of bought packs and its affect on other packs being bought.
Imagine going into a draft, and everyone opens up cards that aren't worth much. Some could call that unlucky, some would call that suspicious. Now imagine if when prizes are handed out, that nothing good is pulled from those packs as well. Obviously at that point people are going to wonder what's going on. And thusly people are going to be more hesitant about buying packs from the shop if they suspect that the shop might be actively trying to screw them by box mapping their own boxes they are opening for packs/drafts/prizes.
What other people pull does/can influence other people to buy packs. I would also say, in general that its a lot less common for shops to box map than it is to see it elsewhere. I also know that in order to curtail others from potential box mapping, we rarely if ever let people pick their own packs. We would just pick off the top, or bottom, or if people were insistent on picking their packs, we would shuffle up the packs in the box, to randomize them, and then let them pick if they wanted. In the end, a lot of what comes down to buying boosters and such from shops, is trust. If you trust the shop you go to, and trust the people that run the shop, then you will feel better about buying such things from there. If you don't, then you wont and you'll think twice about doing so.
Just because box mapping exists, doesn't mean that the maps and mapping of the boxes need to be encouraged, and especially not here. As long as people are aware that as a general subject, box mapping for sets does exist, then people will learn to be more cautious about buying packs and learn from that to be more careful in the future. One doesn't need the actual box map itself for the set to act in such a way.
BaM Store owner buys a booster box. Opens 2 packs for control. Sees Money Rare A is 3 packs up from his first control booster. Gets Money Rare A, sells it on. Checks the rest of the map to find Money Rares B and C and sell them on for profit. Money Rares A, B, and C are more expensive than the packs they came in. Sell the remaining 31 packs for the regular price, knowing that they contain Crap Rares worth a fraction of the Booster Value.
@9909: Don't call my post nonsensical or illogical, just because you don't understand it. Get it?
Where I"m having trouble is figuring out how it'd help YOU to know about how box mapping works if this happened.
Namely, how it'd help you avoid this in any way.
If you didn't see them opening the box, you'd have no idea if they mapped it. Moreover, just knowing the process is POSSIBLE means that, if you see someone open a box and goes for specific packs, you know something's up. You don't need to know exactly how it works to know it's not kosher.
That's what I need to know, personally. How does knowing the exact map help you here?
And if you didn't see them open the box in the first place, how does it help you at all? In most LGS I've been to, the boxes are all out of order already.
Unofficial spoilers don't have the potential for abuse that box mapping does. We don't want it here because it's so easy to rip people off - it makes rigging the system to your advantage easy.
Where I"m having trouble is figuring out how it'd help YOU to know about how box mapping works if this happened.
Namely, how it'd help you avoid this in any way.
If you didn't see them opening the box, you'd have no idea if they mapped it. Moreover, just knowing the process is POSSIBLE means that, if you see someone open a box and goes for specific packs, you know something's up. You don't need to know exactly how it works to know it's not kosher.
That's what I need to know, personally. How does knowing the exact map help you here?
And if you didn't see them open the box in the first place, how does it help you at all? In most LGS I've been to, the boxes are all out of order already.
How do you know they are out of order? They tell you?
Galspanic, you could just as easily abuse anything else related to Magic. I'm sorry, but banning something because the possibility exists to abuse something is incredibly narrow minded. People are going to bash me for this because they'll say it's "Out there" in comparisons, but I'm going to do it anyway. Eat a quote:
Quote from Sam Vaknin »
Every technology can be potentially abused. Television can be either a wonderful educational tool - or an addictive and mind numbing pastime. Nuclear fission is a process that yields both nuclear weapons and atomic energy.
Quote from Sam Vaknin »
Yet, this is another variant of the argument from abuse. That a technology can be abused by governments does not imply that it should be avoided or remain undeveloped. This is because all technologies - without a single exception - can and are abused routinely - by governments and others. This is human nature.
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Even the legitimate uses are on some level cheating the system. Also, we don't allow people to post test questions from DCI Judge tests. Should we? There are a lot of ways people cheat, but that doesn't mean we have to allow our forums to be the place where that collusion happens. Right?
When I see people selling loose packs in Market Street and I see them posting and lurking in Box Mapping threads I do feel that there is enough of a chance that it's bad for the people here.
"It's available in other places, so why shouldn't it be allowed here?" is a very bad argument. Pornography is available on the internet, so why not allow it on this site? You can find bomb-making instructions online, so let's allow them here. There's obnoxious trolls all over the place online, why are they banned on this site? And so on.
You can't control the internet. You can, however, control your little section of it. The availability or lack thereof isn't relevant. It's not the kind of thing the mucky-mucks running the place want to associate themselves with. That's pretty much all there is to it.
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Retrodrome!
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M'saion ulé hraka vair.
Bel brings up a good point. Essentially, the rule angers more people than wanted it changed.
Why couldnt we have a public vote on if it should be allowed. You all seemingly didnt discuss it in public before coming to an answer, it appears it was more of a "We'll get back to you." and then its banned out of the blue. No news, just banned.... and then news.
You know, this is starting to look like another drama bomb yet again because the there wasnt clarity until a descision was made.
Bel brings up a good point. Essentially, the rule angers more people than wanted it changed.
Why couldnt we have a public vote on if it should be allowed. You all seemingly didnt discuss it in public before coming to an answer, it appears it was more of a "We'll get back to you." and then its banned out of the blue. No news, just banned.... and then news.
You know, this is starting to look like another drama bomb yet again because the there wasnt clarity until a descision was made.
What makes you think more people oppose this? You know that feedback boxes are always full of complaints - it's hard to gauge how the general public feels about this.
It's very rare that policy decisions are made publicly. We get the input, we talk about it, and then we act. That's how it always is. We got the feedback and letting you know that the rule changed was getting back to people. I already apologized for the rushed nature of the change, but like I already said, I did not think that a thread would already be going on the Sunday of the Prerelease weekend. That misjudgment was all me.
If you think that makes this a future dramabomb, throw it at me.
How is this still an issue? They had a fourteen page thread where people argued on both sides. After the discussion came to a close, staff apparently chatted and did whatever they do - take a vote, come to consensus, whatever - and determined to change the rule with an announcement sometime before the DGM mapping would start. Galspanic or other staff apparently mistimed the announcement, chose not to card anybody already posting about DGM maps, locked the discussion, informed everybody, and we went along. Now people want to make the arguments again, have a vote on it, or attack side issues like the rumor mill or the availability of shady materials elsewhere. But all that's pointless - they made a policy decision that they didn't want the shady material like actual box map attempts here because they didn't want to facilitate scams, but they will allow discussion of box mapping that educates people about possibilities out there. They tried to strike a balance. Galspanic apologized for defects in how he announced it. What else is there to say that hasn't been said? Come on, people. Don't make drama where there shouldn't be any.
The fact is that the staff had a massive amount of time between the thread and this set to announce it.... and they didnt....
It sounds more like they said they would and didnt until the thread came up and someone posted about it. The staff then quickly discussed it and came to what we have today. That just doesnt seem good.
If this is to try and make the site look good, then just say it. If not, then why now, not sooner?
Hell, if it is to make the site look better, then why do we still allow the unofficial spoilers. If memory serves, thats one of the reasons why this site doesnt have an official spoiler. "Oh, it doesnt hurt anyone." Well, technically it hurts curse. Official spoiler means we'll more than likely get more traffic, which means more ad revenue.
The reason it was rushed was again me. It was my project and the discussion wasn't particularly exciting or active. I didn't feel any need to push it along even though the admins unanimously agreed on this 3 months ago. I should have taken the deadlines a little more serious, but I didn't see the need.
It's not about making the site look better in the eyes of WotC. It's about prohibiting behavior that can easily be used to rip off our users. WotC and Curse's reputations and relationship have never been a factor here.
It's not about making the site look better in the eyes of WotC. It's about prohibiting behavior that can easily be used to rip off our users.
I hope it's about more than just this, because if that's the standard you're going to be banning a awful lot of things. For example, the Running Tally of Highest Priced Cards threads can easily be (and I'm sure is) used to rip people off at the prerelease. Are you going to ban that as well?
So far, the only upside I've seen of this is some nebulous talk of MTGS's reputation. The downside, however, is more concrete. Despite allowing talk about box mapping, without the effort to make the map giving people something to actually talk about fewer people will become aware of the practice.
That's the basic problem. You're not getting rid of the actual mapping, just the discussion and therefore the awareness of the practice.
Actually this policy irks me because it hides information, I never heard of box mapping before coming here. Its interesting to look at and see the pack distribution rares and such it also gives you an idea of whats in the box with out even really trying to map. I actually think its helpful information during drafting because it just seeing the rares I open gives me idea what some one-else or my self may pull if I have idea of the track lay outs. Since most drafts are done from basically one box. I see nothing wrong with box mapping. Like the only place people should be buying loose packs from are LGS or a box store. Stores that do map though do not have my approval, but keeping the details of mapping not public also makes it harder to identify such activity. One such example might out of "one box" 4 of the same junk mythic are opened would not be likely and if it happens a lot its red flag. Also the more detailed information about tracks could lead to the same conclusion because only so many of one card should be in a track yet when that distribution is off something is not right. So I find the track information helpful in policing the very stores we buy from. If they map the cards that people pull will show it. Like many of you here you probably have spent quite a few hours at your LGS and see what others pull from prizes packs and such but like if you see 8 voltile rigs from a box you know somethings up, but how do you conclude whats too many of one card for a normal box without knowing the track information. It also can give you an idea of what is missing from the box. Like if a lot of value cards are appearing less quantity than they should be from a box. I guess most people do not analyze the packs they open with such detail, but I like seeing what people pull from packs and such. I am probably not the only person but it only takes a little bit of an idea tracks and you can tell if your LGS is selling sifted packs. I think its best left to public discussion. This a forums after all. A forums should a place of open discussion.
Actually this policy irks me because it hides information, I never heard of box mapping before coming here. Its interesting to look at and see the pack distribution rares and such it also gives you an idea of whats in the box with out even really trying to map.
Ok, being interesting isn't going to be enough when we start dealing with morally grey areas. As was mentioned before, porn is legal and interesting. It's not going to be allowed.
I actually think its helpful information during drafting because it just seeing the rares I open gives me idea what some one-else or my self may pull if I have idea of the track lay outs. Since most drafts are done from basically one box.
See, this is morally ambiguous. There was a large uproar in the Mill (directed at Wizards) when the dual-faced cards and how to draft them was announced. People like their picks to be hidden, so if you're using map knowledge to know what others picked, it starts to violate the spirit of the draft.
I see nothing wrong with box mapping. Like the only place people should be buying loose packs from are LGS or a box store. Stores that do map though do not have my approval, but keeping the details of mapping not public also makes it harder to identify such activity. One such example might out of "one box" 4 of the same junk mythic are opened would not be likely and if it happens a lot its red flag. Also the more detailed information about tracks could lead to the same conclusion because only so many of one card should be in a track yet when that distribution is off something is not right. So I find the track information helpful in policing the very stores we buy from. If they map the cards that people pull will show it. Like many of you here you probably have spent quite a few hours at your LGS and see what others pull from prizes packs and such but like if you see 8 voltile rigs from a box you know somethings up, but how do you conclude whats too many of one card for a normal box without knowing the track information. It also can give you an idea of what is missing from the box. Like if a lot of value cards are appearing less quantity than they should be from a box. I guess most people do not analyze the packs they open with such detail, but I like seeing what people pull from packs and such. I am probably not the only person but it only takes a little bit of an idea tracks and you can tell if your LGS is selling sifted packs. I think its best left to public discussion. This a forums after all. A forums should a place of open discussion.
All this can be done without posting the actual map. I can say "My stores been pulling a lot of crap rares for drafting and prizes, and we never once saw a planeswalker, do you think they could be mapping the boxes?" and get the same answer without needing the map. The only thing the map would provide is close-to-hard evidence, which won't do anything but convince you and other players. And that could be done without the map by saying "When's the last time you saw a planeswalker pulled here?"
Remember, you can still discuss the practice of mapping, you just can't actually make maps anymore just like you can discuss the porn industry, but you can't post porn.
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She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
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See, this is morally ambiguous. There was a large uproar in the Mill (directed at Wizards) when the dual-faced cards and how to draft them was announced. People like their picks to be hidden, so if you're using map knowledge to know what others picked, it starts to violate the spirit of the draft.
We still allow the mapping of the common and uncommon print runs, so clearly the moral ambiguity associated with that sort of practice is acceptable.
I buy loose boosters for cheap until the set is mapped...
It's a luxury to get 3 packs for $10 no tax until the map is out.
Then I move on to sealed product only.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
So instead of a weekly $10, I have to put larger investments down and get a fatpack or box.
Get it?
Regardless, I don't see how that has anything to do with people creating box maps. Why does it require MTGS to facilitate the making of maps?
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
I don't know if this is permissible under current rules, but it shouldn't be too hard to say "Yes, this set has been mapped as of [time]". If you don't believe me, Google is your friend. Lets those that require the additional proof go find it themselves, keeps actual maps off MTGS. At the very least, it seems a tractable middle ground.
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
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Modern:
- GW Birthing Pod(?)
Legacy:
- UWR Delver
Sure...but what's the point? All doing that accomplishes is wasting people's time. You're not stopping any potential evildoers from finding the maps.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Imagine going into a draft, and everyone opens up cards that aren't worth much. Some could call that unlucky, some would call that suspicious. Now imagine if when prizes are handed out, that nothing good is pulled from those packs as well. Obviously at that point people are going to wonder what's going on. And thusly people are going to be more hesitant about buying packs from the shop if they suspect that the shop might be actively trying to screw them by box mapping their own boxes they are opening for packs/drafts/prizes.
What other people pull does/can influence other people to buy packs. I would also say, in general that its a lot less common for shops to box map than it is to see it elsewhere. I also know that in order to curtail others from potential box mapping, we rarely if ever let people pick their own packs. We would just pick off the top, or bottom, or if people were insistent on picking their packs, we would shuffle up the packs in the box, to randomize them, and then let them pick if they wanted. In the end, a lot of what comes down to buying boosters and such from shops, is trust. If you trust the shop you go to, and trust the people that run the shop, then you will feel better about buying such things from there. If you don't, then you wont and you'll think twice about doing so.
Just because box mapping exists, doesn't mean that the maps and mapping of the boxes need to be encouraged, and especially not here. As long as people are aware that as a general subject, box mapping for sets does exist, then people will learn to be more cautious about buying packs and learn from that to be more careful in the future. One doesn't need the actual box map itself for the set to act in such a way.
Where I"m having trouble is figuring out how it'd help YOU to know about how box mapping works if this happened.
Namely, how it'd help you avoid this in any way.
If you didn't see them opening the box, you'd have no idea if they mapped it. Moreover, just knowing the process is POSSIBLE means that, if you see someone open a box and goes for specific packs, you know something's up. You don't need to know exactly how it works to know it's not kosher.
That's what I need to know, personally. How does knowing the exact map help you here?
And if you didn't see them open the box in the first place, how does it help you at all? In most LGS I've been to, the boxes are all out of order already.
My helpdesk should you need me.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
How do you know they are out of order? They tell you?
Galspanic, you could just as easily abuse anything else related to Magic. I'm sorry, but banning something because the possibility exists to abuse something is incredibly narrow minded. People are going to bash me for this because they'll say it's "Out there" in comparisons, but I'm going to do it anyway. Eat a quote:
When I see people selling loose packs in Market Street and I see them posting and lurking in Box Mapping threads I do feel that there is enough of a chance that it's bad for the people here.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
You can't control the internet. You can, however, control your little section of it. The availability or lack thereof isn't relevant. It's not the kind of thing the mucky-mucks running the place want to associate themselves with. That's pretty much all there is to it.
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Why couldnt we have a public vote on if it should be allowed. You all seemingly didnt discuss it in public before coming to an answer, it appears it was more of a "We'll get back to you." and then its banned out of the blue. No news, just banned.... and then news.
You know, this is starting to look like another drama bomb yet again because the there wasnt clarity until a descision was made.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyWhat makes you think more people oppose this? You know that feedback boxes are always full of complaints - it's hard to gauge how the general public feels about this.
It's very rare that policy decisions are made publicly. We get the input, we talk about it, and then we act. That's how it always is. We got the feedback and letting you know that the rule changed was getting back to people. I already apologized for the rushed nature of the change, but like I already said, I did not think that a thread would already be going on the Sunday of the Prerelease weekend. That misjudgment was all me.
If you think that makes this a future dramabomb, throw it at me.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
It sounds more like they said they would and didnt until the thread came up and someone posted about it. The staff then quickly discussed it and came to what we have today. That just doesnt seem good.
If this is to try and make the site look good, then just say it. If not, then why now, not sooner?
Hell, if it is to make the site look better, then why do we still allow the unofficial spoilers. If memory serves, thats one of the reasons why this site doesnt have an official spoiler. "Oh, it doesnt hurt anyone." Well, technically it hurts curse. Official spoiler means we'll more than likely get more traffic, which means more ad revenue.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyIt's not about making the site look better in the eyes of WotC. It's about prohibiting behavior that can easily be used to rip off our users. WotC and Curse's reputations and relationship have never been a factor here.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Check again. If they were, demolition companies and 90% of the San Fernando Valley would be out of business.
(your local laws, however, may vary)
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I hope it's about more than just this, because if that's the standard you're going to be banning a awful lot of things. For example, the Running Tally of Highest Priced Cards threads can easily be (and I'm sure is) used to rip people off at the prerelease. Are you going to ban that as well?
So far, the only upside I've seen of this is some nebulous talk of MTGS's reputation. The downside, however, is more concrete. Despite allowing talk about box mapping, without the effort to make the map giving people something to actually talk about fewer people will become aware of the practice.
That's the basic problem. You're not getting rid of the actual mapping, just the discussion and therefore the awareness of the practice.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
I really don't see why the actual box maps are needed.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
It's not "just the discussion". It's stopping actively making the map on-site.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
Because realistically the actual mapping discussion was what was making people aware of it.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
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My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
Ok, being interesting isn't going to be enough when we start dealing with morally grey areas. As was mentioned before, porn is legal and interesting. It's not going to be allowed.
See, this is morally ambiguous. There was a large uproar in the Mill (directed at Wizards) when the dual-faced cards and how to draft them was announced. People like their picks to be hidden, so if you're using map knowledge to know what others picked, it starts to violate the spirit of the draft.
All this can be done without posting the actual map. I can say "My stores been pulling a lot of crap rares for drafting and prizes, and we never once saw a planeswalker, do you think they could be mapping the boxes?" and get the same answer without needing the map. The only thing the map would provide is close-to-hard evidence, which won't do anything but convince you and other players. And that could be done without the map by saying "When's the last time you saw a planeswalker pulled here?"
Remember, you can still discuss the practice of mapping, you just can't actually make maps anymore just like you can discuss the porn industry, but you can't post porn.
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We still allow the mapping of the common and uncommon print runs, so clearly the moral ambiguity associated with that sort of practice is acceptable.