Yawg--the way the alters were listed is in no way the problem, the fact is is that ebay considered paint to be just as much as a trademark violation as print. Legally there is ZERO distinction between the two, and Ebay has similarly made zero distinction. If it were a problem with buyers these people would have some sort of negative feedback which they as far as I can tell do not.
The problem arose when some butt hurt fellow decided they wanted to start a little crusade against alters that they themselves didn't like, either out of fear of competition, or else just being an ass.
It is precisely as Zen Viking has said, someone reported one type of alter, those guys likely asked why theirs were being hit while all these others were still up and Ebay agreed and removed the other alters which for all practical purposes of Ebaying were exactly the same.
Basically if you were going around reporting people the way bristol, and CK were apparently doing then you are the one to blame for this problem.
Rainman, I don't get the point of this blame-game. Even if Ebay itself sent you a message that said,
"Rainman, we took down all the 'mtg altered' auctions because Bristol, Card Kitty, and Yawg were being jerks and reported your auctions - you are right, this whole thing is their fault,"
what would you do with that information? What do you hope to achieve by continually blaming people for the situation?
Rainman, I don't get the point of this blame-game. Even if Ebay itself sent you a message that said,
"Rainman, we took down all the 'mtg altered' auctions because Bristol, Card Kitty, and Yawg were being jerks and reported your auctions - you are right, this whole thing is their fault,"
what would you do with that information? What do you hope to achieve by continually blaming people for the situation?
He gains a sense that he "THINKS" he is in the right and will be rewarded in the end when in truth he gets nothing but a ton of hatred from artists and buyers alike.
The only auctions I reported were the counterfeit ones that had the double hearts expansion symbol. The guy was selling fake Elspeth, Grim Tutor, Bitterblossom, Meddling Mage, etc.
But that was a while back and they never did take them down. It's only recently that they were taken down along with every one else's.
RanMn: You wish that's what I edited. My psychic powers however, were simply based on your predictability. Everyone on here was thinking the same thing, because when you're found out, you respond with "no! you don't know what you're talking about!" Just like DancingDragon telling people they're "being rude and they should shut the %$!k up" 24/7.
For someone who doesn't think there's a blame game, you sure are pointing your own finger an awful lot. Listen, I think that people had every right to report items that were counterfeit. It's easy for you to say even painted cards were in violation because they were all pulled down at once, but in fact, the ones that deservedly got reported were taken down initially, then those auction owners cried about the legitimate painted cards where the original artists were GIVEN CREDIT, and so eBay tried to make everyone happy by saying they were ALL infringing. That's the only reason they ALL got taken down. I firmly believe the printed fakes being sold as the real deal and/or as the auctioneers' own works of art was the sole reason for all of this. The fact remains that if today's printers weren't so advanced and CAPABLE of printing duplicates and fakes, then there would be no question about what cards are authentic or not. You're only arguing that painted cards are somehow "exactly the same" as printed cards, so you can keep your gig going on. I for one, hope printers get the boot. If it puts a stop to actual counterfeits and silly soft-pornography "art", I'm all for it.
Picture this: I paint a one-hundred dollar bill and sell it on ebay as PAINTED art, a souvenir or something that is a REPLICA of the original GOVERNMENT CURRENCY. Sold as ART. Then you knock-off artists come around with fancy printers, and PRINT the same hundred-dollar bill 500x over, that looks completely authentic to the naked eye, and then FAIL TO MENTION that they're 100% printed, fake, and not authentic. Which of these scenarios do you THINK is going to be in question...? I think even IF you were honest enough to mention it wasn't the real thing, Uncle Sam would chime in realizing the alarming rate you were reproducing these replicas, and put a swift stop to it. I would not be surprised one bit if this was the case with WoTC. A handful of painted alters selling every day, it seemed like they were all for it, especially with that article FEATURING some of our cards, but an army of printers that suddenly make their cheapest lands worth 100x their face value, being sold in ridiculous quantities while simulatenously defacing their original product with real life porn stars, it's NO surprise. I would be pissed too.
I really hope they follow BlueDeck's suggestion and distinguish between printed and other mediums. If they can do that, then I really believe legitimate alters will be allowed, and printed alters will either have limited allowance, or none at all. If you get screwed and it ends up being the latter, well, I'm sorry! Learn how to paint on a regular basis and stop relying on something that lets you spew out COPIES of OTHER PEOPLE'S WORK at 908234 cards per minute. You can say all day long that you give original artist's credit or pay them a percentage, but you'll never be able to authenticate proof to eBay, let alone us. Printers ruined this for everyone.
Yea I think a sigil of distinction should definitely be used or maybe just completely extirpate printed cards altogether.
In a way I think some of the more established painters were already exploiting something for monetary benefit, then printers came along and exploited that existing exploitation. The difference being that Wizards was okay with one but had to draw the line with the other. Paint is easily identified with artistry, it involves much more time and talent. It is far easier to give credit to original artists with a simple extension, or completely come up with your own artwork when you paint. Print (mainly the electronic printers) is unfortunately associated with reproduction more than anything else. It's efficent and practical for such purposes, and guess what, that's what printers were predominantly being used for in this case. So if the painters work together to separate themselves from the questionable medium, then it should come as no surprise to anyone, if painted alters are once again allowed.
Cardkitty have you already tried contacting wizards and if so, did you receive a response from them? I think we'd be in a better position to find a solution if we knew how they officially stood on this matter concerning our favorite auction site.
Cardkitty have you already tried contacting wizards and if so, did you receive a response from them? I think we'd be in a better position to find a solution if we knew how they officially stood on this matter concerning our favorite auction site.
Response (Support Agent)06/02/2009 08:23 PM
Hi there Dereck,
Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast game support!
I am forwarding your questions along to our legal department for consideration. They should be able to respond to you at their earliest convenience. Thank you very much for your patience in this matter.
Yawg--the way the alters were listed is in no way the problem, the fact is is that ebay considered paint to be just as much as a trademark violation as print. Legally there is ZERO distinction between the two, and Ebay has similarly made zero distinction.
Incorrect. I hate to point this out again, but there is a distiction between the two. Again, no direct offense, but I'll use you and Yawg as examples.
Let's assume that Yawg is painting Domo on the front of a foil Ravnica Island based on a specific picture. Let's also say that you are printing that picture on a foil island.
Yawg = one foul for unauthorized use of intellectual property. His own image, though, so he's clear there.
You = two fouls; one for unauthorized use of intellectual property, one for unauthorized reprinting of a copyrighted image.
Two different fouls. Both are arguably wrong depending on the circumstances. If Yawg gets permission to use the image, or paints something different, it's all good. If you licence the image, or print something you own, it's all good.
Rainman, I don't get the point of this blame-game. Even if Ebay itself sent you a message that said,
"Rainman, we took down all the 'mtg altered' auctions because Bristol, Card Kitty, and Yawg were being jerks and reported your auctions - you are right, this whole thing is their fault,"
what would you do with that information? What do you hope to achieve by continually blaming people for the situation?
RanMn and others blaming,
I hate to admit it but Bristol is right here. We need to stop the blaming and b!#ching and come together with a solution.
I think the idea of rewording the auctions is likely to work for awhile. Eventually; thought, the listings will be found and a few people will probably end up being suspended.
I like the idea of starting a new mtg altered site for selling and auctioning our art. It will take a while to build back up to the exposure we were getting with ebay but it is not hopeless.
Meanwhile, I have emailed wizards to ask for written permission. So far I have only received emails indicating it has been escalated to the next level of support. I will let you all know how that turns out.
If anyone knows or can get in touch with an Intellectual Property Rights attorney please explain our situation and ask how much it would cost to get some form of legal documentation allowing our product. The ebay rep that I spoke to said that would suffice and it might not be all that expensive. Especially if we all chip in.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Remember, magic should only consume 95% of your time and resources. Life's better when you find the right balance.
If anyone knows or can get in touch with an Intellectual Property Rights attorney please explain our situation and ask how much it would cost to get some form of legal documentation allowing our product. The ebay rep that I spoke to said that would suffice and it might not be all that expensive. Especially if we all chip in.
This is an amazing idea, I would be able to pich $$ at this.
Perhaps matswins can ask one of his teachers?
Meanwhile, I have emailed wizards to ask for written permission. So far I have only received emails indicating it has been escalated to the next level of support. I will let you all know how that turns out.
Would each alterer need written permission or would ebay accept an overall policy based on specific wording (altered vs. painted)?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"When the gorilla playfully grabbed the wurm's tail, the wurm doubled back and playfully ate the gorilla's head."
I hope I'm not asking a question that's already been answered, but are we positive that the supposed copyright infringement is on the art, and not the magic card itself?
I'm assuming that's correct just because Amy Weber's stuff got relisted with apparently no problems.
If that's the case, and it's true that she's allowed to list altered cards that she's painted the original art for, doesn't that mean that the intellectual property rights of the art belong to both WOTC and to the artist? Meaning if we got written permission from an individual Magic artist to extend their art, replace their art, or add to their art, that'd be allowed on eBay?
Not that it'd be easy to contact every Magic artist, but you know, it's a thought.
I still don't see how it would be anybodies fault because they filed a legitimate report. The person being reported broke the rules, so it's their fault. I'll say I once reported one of the anime lands that didn't censor some nipples, pretty sure it got taken down. If I have to do it, then so should they. I don't care who did it, they didn't follow the rules like good little ebayers.
As far as keywords go, I'm not sure if that would get around the problem. I feel "painted magic cards" or something using "painted" might be a better option. Considering I haven't gotten any of mine taken down ever, I could test it out...as long as nobody reports it Not like I would care much anyway... I'll do a quickie tomorrow and see what happens.
Bcal--I'm not saying its their fault...I'm saying it was the cause of this current problem. This is obviously the fault of a high level of incompetence on Ebays part, that was set into motion when a few people doing alters reported some other peoples alters..... Basically the fact that this turned into a huge issue rests strictly with Ebay not following its own policies of VeRO confirmation in relation to auction take downs. The people reporting the auctions they disagreed with were only the trigger.
Not much brings me around here anymore, I like to mill over the rumor mill (haha) and occassionally check the artwork boards, but thanks to an unfortunate series of events I find myself here.
On the MSE boards I go by the username Art_Freak, and I'm a developer. I don't do a lot of work with Magic, but when needed I'll convert PSD files into JPG/PNG files and create symbols for fonts. I'm not big on people using the program for profit either. As it is WotC leaves us alone - even using the program for some things themselves, but when people start printing fakes with MSE the entire thing is put at risk, as could not be made more apparent by the events unfolding here and on ebay.
MSE fakes are distinguishable from real cards, and easily distinguishable to the developers. Sunday while look for Magic deals on ebay (yes, I'm a player, and yes I buy all my cards), I came across a familiar user name selling altered art cards. The user I came across was goomaster03 who was banned from the MSE boards months ago. He's the user discussed earlier in this thread that was selling the *** and Maelstrom Pulse fakes, and yes, they were fakes. Many of the cards he'd been trying to pass as real were in fact featuring one of the often ignored parts of the MSE cards - automatic card numbers. As we all know, numbers are at the end of the copyright line, and in MSE they are put there automatically so you don't have to do it yourself with every card you make. This also means that if you don't add any copyright text and those automatic numbers are there, that you are almost certainly using MSE for your counterfeiting needs. In any case, he's corrected that mistake since then and no longer lists cards with the automatic numbers and an otherwise blank copyright line.
Other signs lie with the set symbol, if anyone were to actually buy one they would find that the set symbol is grainy at the edges, with too thin a line, and for many set symbols the gradient will be going the wrong direction. Another: textless cards will feature an incorrect mask with cropping at the bottom of the art (it takes too large a bite out of the frame.) Another: on promotional images, especially lands, you will notice that the border repeats vertically on both sides of the image. I've attached an example image of this showing the MSE promotional land frame next to one of goomaster03's cards.
What I did was reasonable; I reported his auction because he'd created a fake card with stolen art. I don't like what he's done. He did what everyone, myself included, expected somebody would do in that he's used MSE to try to make a profit. MSE is not intended for making fake cards, there are tons of image mistakes I left in intentionally on templates I've worked on to specifically help deter that (VS features no UDE logo and repeated background elements, YGO features generated (not scanned) frames, and as I pointed out with the promotional MTG style, image sections are just repeated.) I suppose though that it's inevitable that somebody will try to pass them off as quality cards anyway, and it's sad that people fall for it. One of his auctions for an Elspeth sold before I could report it for around $13.00 the last time I saw it... He no doubt spent about 5 minutes copy/pasting text, inputing an image, printing the card, cutting it out, and then gluing it down on a common.
Policy doesn't change overnight, and so I highly doubt it was my actions Sunday that set things rolling, but I am sorry that this happened and that your market for altered cards has taken a serious blow. If there is anything I can do to help I would be glad to consider it (sorry, but goomaster03 says that I can help by dieing, so I have to consider things, not just do them.) Having done and sold some of my own alterations in the past (nothing on the scale you guys do though), I know how infuriated I would have been to see my painted cards come down. I really am sorry.
I am also glad in having read this thread to see that I'm not the only one reporting fake MTG cards, and I hope you'll all join in keeping an eye on fake cards, not just for the sake of alterations, but for the sake of the game. If each active user from here were to give ebay a browse for fakes once a week they would become very scarce. Some of the terms I've found fakes by are: original, orica, custom, customized, alter, altered, and alternative. I'm sure there's plenty more tags for them too.
If you have any venting you'd like to do against me, it's fine, and I'll take it without complaint. I'll log on each day to check my PM box to see if anyone has anything to say, and I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.
-CBG
ATTACHMENTS
example
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"If I take death into my life, acknowledge it, and face it squarely, I will free myself from the anxiety of death and the pettiness of life - and only then will I be free to become myself." - Martin Heidegger
I don't think would have an issue with someone reporting fake cards or cards with exposed nipples. That's different than just reporting an auction because someone is your competition. That's the kind thing that makes me sick about ebay's policies.
I wouldn't ever buy a printed card, but I guess some people might. However, don't see why anyone would pay money for printed cards or tokens of any kind when they could easily do that themselves and ruin their own cards for a lot cheaper. I don't think cards with sticker layer on the would even be torunament legal (even if you put an elspeth sticker on an elspeth card) because the thickness of the card would be so much different from the rest of the cards in the deck. Proxies are easily made at home with a sharpie or a printer. No reason to get charged shipping fees.
It might be hard for some users to spot printed copies. I think I even commented positively on some printed cards in a pm thinking they were painted. However, if the seller misrepresents the cards paypal would take care of returns and ebay's feedback system would torpedo those "printers" pretty quickly and let the painters have the spotlight back.
Now that CBG/Art_Freak has come forward, I will too.
I've also been reporting Goomaster03 and lachargers. Why? Because they are breaking the rules of eBay, and they are commiting a crime. And I can't believe the rest of you would step aside and let them. They don't just give a bad name to eBay and MSE, they give a bad name to all of you by using your market you've created to sell fakes and counterfeits.
I've heard it argued that we should just stop reporting them so they'll stop reporting others. Certainly not; in the end, if you break the rules and get your listing removed, who's to blame? Not eBay, and not the reporting user. The answer: stop infringing on other people's trademarks. Take the proper steps, and your listings won't be in violation of rules and laws anymore. And don't let others do it. Its wrong and makes you look bad.
I wouldn't ever buy a printed card, but I guess some people might. However, don't see why anyone would pay money for printed cards or tokens of any kind when they could easily do that themselves and ruin their own cards for a lot cheaper.
The answer to this is easy; they don't realize that MSE exists. He's gotten nothing but positive feedback so far, because the buyers just don't know how easily made these pieces of crap are.
Edit: I have a little more to say about the idea of just turning a blind eye to the users. I would say even if you don't want to patrol eBay the way CBG is suggesting, everyone should atleast consider reporting listings that are in violation when you happen across them. The fact is that eBay is a user-patrolled website, and just like you don't want crime in your community, you shouldn't want it in your eBay listings either. There's this pattern of behavior among all people to just turn a blind eye to crime and say that it doesn't affect them - the reality is that one day it will, and you won't want it to be ignored then. Don't ignore it now.
Now that CBG/Art_Freak has come forward, I will too.
I've also been reporting Goomaster03 and lachargers. Why? Because they are breaking the rules of eBay, and they are commiting a crime. And I can't believe the rest of you would step aside and let them. They don't just give a bad name to eBay and MSE, they give a bad name to all of you by using your market you've created to sell fakes and counterfeits.
I think a problem that forced eBay to adopt a new policy towards 'mtg altered' is that no one there in the trust and safety department plays magic, and hence they did not want to put in the extra effort to determine which cards are legit and which one's are fake.
As regular players that know the environment we can easily spot what is legit or not, but that's not the case for a non-mtg player.
The problem arose when some butt hurt fellow decided they wanted to start a little crusade against alters that they themselves didn't like, either out of fear of competition, or else just being an ass.
It is precisely as Zen Viking has said, someone reported one type of alter, those guys likely asked why theirs were being hit while all these others were still up and Ebay agreed and removed the other alters which for all practical purposes of Ebaying were exactly the same.
Basically if you were going around reporting people the way bristol, and CK were apparently doing then you are the one to blame for this problem.
"Custom" is being used and seems like a better word than "altered" anyways.
"Rainman, we took down all the 'mtg altered' auctions because Bristol, Card Kitty, and Yawg were being jerks and reported your auctions - you are right, this whole thing is their fault,"
what would you do with that information? What do you hope to achieve by continually blaming people for the situation?
RRR Buy some of my art! Prints! RRR
He gains a sense that he "THINKS" he is in the right and will be rewarded in the end when in truth he gets nothing but a ton of hatred from artists and buyers alike.
But that was a while back and they never did take them down. It's only recently that they were taken down along with every one else's.
Cardkitty Facebook
My Card Gallery.
STOP!!!!
What the blame game
Focus on the answer
Check Out My Card Gallery
For someone who doesn't think there's a blame game, you sure are pointing your own finger an awful lot. Listen, I think that people had every right to report items that were counterfeit. It's easy for you to say even painted cards were in violation because they were all pulled down at once, but in fact, the ones that deservedly got reported were taken down initially, then those auction owners cried about the legitimate painted cards where the original artists were GIVEN CREDIT, and so eBay tried to make everyone happy by saying they were ALL infringing. That's the only reason they ALL got taken down. I firmly believe the printed fakes being sold as the real deal and/or as the auctioneers' own works of art was the sole reason for all of this. The fact remains that if today's printers weren't so advanced and CAPABLE of printing duplicates and fakes, then there would be no question about what cards are authentic or not. You're only arguing that painted cards are somehow "exactly the same" as printed cards, so you can keep your gig going on. I for one, hope printers get the boot. If it puts a stop to actual counterfeits and silly soft-pornography "art", I'm all for it.
Picture this: I paint a one-hundred dollar bill and sell it on ebay as PAINTED art, a souvenir or something that is a REPLICA of the original GOVERNMENT CURRENCY. Sold as ART. Then you knock-off artists come around with fancy printers, and PRINT the same hundred-dollar bill 500x over, that looks completely authentic to the naked eye, and then FAIL TO MENTION that they're 100% printed, fake, and not authentic. Which of these scenarios do you THINK is going to be in question...? I think even IF you were honest enough to mention it wasn't the real thing, Uncle Sam would chime in realizing the alarming rate you were reproducing these replicas, and put a swift stop to it. I would not be surprised one bit if this was the case with WoTC. A handful of painted alters selling every day, it seemed like they were all for it, especially with that article FEATURING some of our cards, but an army of printers that suddenly make their cheapest lands worth 100x their face value, being sold in ridiculous quantities while simulatenously defacing their original product with real life porn stars, it's NO surprise. I would be pissed too.
I really hope they follow BlueDeck's suggestion and distinguish between printed and other mediums. If they can do that, then I really believe legitimate alters will be allowed, and printed alters will either have limited allowance, or none at all. If you get screwed and it ends up being the latter, well, I'm sorry! Learn how to paint on a regular basis and stop relying on something that lets you spew out COPIES of OTHER PEOPLE'S WORK at 908234 cards per minute. You can say all day long that you give original artist's credit or pay them a percentage, but you'll never be able to authenticate proof to eBay, let alone us. Printers ruined this for everyone.
In a way I think some of the more established painters were already exploiting something for monetary benefit, then printers came along and exploited that existing exploitation. The difference being that Wizards was okay with one but had to draw the line with the other. Paint is easily identified with artistry, it involves much more time and talent. It is far easier to give credit to original artists with a simple extension, or completely come up with your own artwork when you paint. Print (mainly the electronic printers) is unfortunately associated with reproduction more than anything else. It's efficent and practical for such purposes, and guess what, that's what printers were predominantly being used for in this case. So if the painters work together to separate themselves from the questionable medium, then it should come as no surprise to anyone, if painted alters are once again allowed.
Not even you rainman.
If you search 'Custom mtg' it returns all kinds of crap.
Also, 'custom mtg' does not exclude printed cards.
I feel more strongly about 'mtg painted' because it is more specific
and currently the only infringement occurs from Kami of the Painted Road.
Cardkitty Facebook
My Card Gallery.
Response (Support Agent)06/02/2009 08:23 PM
Hi there Dereck,
Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast game support!
I am forwarding your questions along to our legal department for consideration. They should be able to respond to you at their earliest convenience. Thank you very much for your patience in this matter.
Take Care and Good Gaming!
Cardkitty Facebook
My Card Gallery.
Incorrect. I hate to point this out again, but there is a distiction between the two. Again, no direct offense, but I'll use you and Yawg as examples.
Let's assume that Yawg is painting Domo on the front of a foil Ravnica Island based on a specific picture. Let's also say that you are printing that picture on a foil island.
Yawg = one foul for unauthorized use of intellectual property. His own image, though, so he's clear there.
You = two fouls; one for unauthorized use of intellectual property, one for unauthorized reprinting of a copyrighted image.
Two different fouls. Both are arguably wrong depending on the circumstances. If Yawg gets permission to use the image, or paints something different, it's all good. If you licence the image, or print something you own, it's all good.
If not? Potential issues.
--->DJ
RanMn and others blaming,
I hate to admit it but Bristol is right here. We need to stop the blaming and b!#ching and come together with a solution.
I think the idea of rewording the auctions is likely to work for awhile. Eventually; thought, the listings will be found and a few people will probably end up being suspended.
I like the idea of starting a new mtg altered site for selling and auctioning our art. It will take a while to build back up to the exposure we were getting with ebay but it is not hopeless.
Meanwhile, I have emailed wizards to ask for written permission. So far I have only received emails indicating it has been escalated to the next level of support. I will let you all know how that turns out.
If anyone knows or can get in touch with an Intellectual Property Rights attorney please explain our situation and ask how much it would cost to get some form of legal documentation allowing our product. The ebay rep that I spoke to said that would suffice and it might not be all that expensive. Especially if we all chip in.
Remember, magic should only consume 95% of your time and resources. Life's better when you find the right balance.
-Dancingdragon
Click hereto see my cards for sale.
This is an amazing idea, I would be able to pich $$ at this.
Perhaps matswins can ask one of his teachers?
Cardkitty Facebook
My Card Gallery.
Remember, magic should only consume 95% of your time and resources. Life's better when you find the right balance.
-Dancingdragon
Click hereto see my cards for sale.
Would each alterer need written permission or would ebay accept an overall policy based on specific wording (altered vs. painted)?
Hard to say. I suppose if the wording is just right.
Remember, magic should only consume 95% of your time and resources. Life's better when you find the right balance.
-Dancingdragon
Click hereto see my cards for sale.
I'm assuming that's correct just because Amy Weber's stuff got relisted with apparently no problems.
If that's the case, and it's true that she's allowed to list altered cards that she's painted the original art for, doesn't that mean that the intellectual property rights of the art belong to both WOTC and to the artist? Meaning if we got written permission from an individual Magic artist to extend their art, replace their art, or add to their art, that'd be allowed on eBay?
Not that it'd be easy to contact every Magic artist, but you know, it's a thought.
My two cents. :/
As far as keywords go, I'm not sure if that would get around the problem. I feel "painted magic cards" or something using "painted" might be a better option. Considering I haven't gotten any of mine taken down ever, I could test it out...as long as nobody reports it Not like I would care much anyway... I'll do a quickie tomorrow and see what happens.
On the MSE boards I go by the username Art_Freak, and I'm a developer. I don't do a lot of work with Magic, but when needed I'll convert PSD files into JPG/PNG files and create symbols for fonts. I'm not big on people using the program for profit either. As it is WotC leaves us alone - even using the program for some things themselves, but when people start printing fakes with MSE the entire thing is put at risk, as could not be made more apparent by the events unfolding here and on ebay.
MSE fakes are distinguishable from real cards, and easily distinguishable to the developers. Sunday while look for Magic deals on ebay (yes, I'm a player, and yes I buy all my cards), I came across a familiar user name selling altered art cards. The user I came across was goomaster03 who was banned from the MSE boards months ago. He's the user discussed earlier in this thread that was selling the *** and Maelstrom Pulse fakes, and yes, they were fakes. Many of the cards he'd been trying to pass as real were in fact featuring one of the often ignored parts of the MSE cards - automatic card numbers. As we all know, numbers are at the end of the copyright line, and in MSE they are put there automatically so you don't have to do it yourself with every card you make. This also means that if you don't add any copyright text and those automatic numbers are there, that you are almost certainly using MSE for your counterfeiting needs. In any case, he's corrected that mistake since then and no longer lists cards with the automatic numbers and an otherwise blank copyright line.
Other signs lie with the set symbol, if anyone were to actually buy one they would find that the set symbol is grainy at the edges, with too thin a line, and for many set symbols the gradient will be going the wrong direction. Another: textless cards will feature an incorrect mask with cropping at the bottom of the art (it takes too large a bite out of the frame.) Another: on promotional images, especially lands, you will notice that the border repeats vertically on both sides of the image. I've attached an example image of this showing the MSE promotional land frame next to one of goomaster03's cards.
What I did was reasonable; I reported his auction because he'd created a fake card with stolen art. I don't like what he's done. He did what everyone, myself included, expected somebody would do in that he's used MSE to try to make a profit. MSE is not intended for making fake cards, there are tons of image mistakes I left in intentionally on templates I've worked on to specifically help deter that (VS features no UDE logo and repeated background elements, YGO features generated (not scanned) frames, and as I pointed out with the promotional MTG style, image sections are just repeated.) I suppose though that it's inevitable that somebody will try to pass them off as quality cards anyway, and it's sad that people fall for it. One of his auctions for an Elspeth sold before I could report it for around $13.00 the last time I saw it... He no doubt spent about 5 minutes copy/pasting text, inputing an image, printing the card, cutting it out, and then gluing it down on a common.
Policy doesn't change overnight, and so I highly doubt it was my actions Sunday that set things rolling, but I am sorry that this happened and that your market for altered cards has taken a serious blow. If there is anything I can do to help I would be glad to consider it (sorry, but goomaster03 says that I can help by dieing, so I have to consider things, not just do them.) Having done and sold some of my own alterations in the past (nothing on the scale you guys do though), I know how infuriated I would have been to see my painted cards come down. I really am sorry.
I am also glad in having read this thread to see that I'm not the only one reporting fake MTG cards, and I hope you'll all join in keeping an eye on fake cards, not just for the sake of alterations, but for the sake of the game. If each active user from here were to give ebay a browse for fakes once a week they would become very scarce. Some of the terms I've found fakes by are: original, orica, custom, customized, alter, altered, and alternative. I'm sure there's plenty more tags for them too.
If you have any venting you'd like to do against me, it's fine, and I'll take it without complaint. I'll log on each day to check my PM box to see if anyone has anything to say, and I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.
-CBG
I wouldn't ever buy a printed card, but I guess some people might. However, don't see why anyone would pay money for printed cards or tokens of any kind when they could easily do that themselves and ruin their own cards for a lot cheaper. I don't think cards with sticker layer on the would even be torunament legal (even if you put an elspeth sticker on an elspeth card) because the thickness of the card would be so much different from the rest of the cards in the deck. Proxies are easily made at home with a sharpie or a printer. No reason to get charged shipping fees.
It might be hard for some users to spot printed copies. I think I even commented positively on some printed cards in a pm thinking they were painted. However, if the seller misrepresents the cards paypal would take care of returns and ebay's feedback system would torpedo those "printers" pretty quickly and let the painters have the spotlight back.
I've also been reporting Goomaster03 and lachargers. Why? Because they are breaking the rules of eBay, and they are commiting a crime. And I can't believe the rest of you would step aside and let them. They don't just give a bad name to eBay and MSE, they give a bad name to all of you by using your market you've created to sell fakes and counterfeits.
I've heard it argued that we should just stop reporting them so they'll stop reporting others. Certainly not; in the end, if you break the rules and get your listing removed, who's to blame? Not eBay, and not the reporting user. The answer: stop infringing on other people's trademarks. Take the proper steps, and your listings won't be in violation of rules and laws anymore. And don't let others do it. Its wrong and makes you look bad.
The answer to this is easy; they don't realize that MSE exists. He's gotten nothing but positive feedback so far, because the buyers just don't know how easily made these pieces of crap are.
Edit: I have a little more to say about the idea of just turning a blind eye to the users. I would say even if you don't want to patrol eBay the way CBG is suggesting, everyone should atleast consider reporting listings that are in violation when you happen across them. The fact is that eBay is a user-patrolled website, and just like you don't want crime in your community, you shouldn't want it in your eBay listings either. There's this pattern of behavior among all people to just turn a blind eye to crime and say that it doesn't affect them - the reality is that one day it will, and you won't want it to be ignored then. Don't ignore it now.
My Moderator Helpdesk| My Custom Set List | My MSE Template HostingBeers Tasted: 113 | Last Beer Sampled: Flying Dog Horn Dog Barley Wine Ale
I think a problem that forced eBay to adopt a new policy towards 'mtg altered' is that no one there in the trust and safety department plays magic, and hence they did not want to put in the extra effort to determine which cards are legit and which one's are fake.
As regular players that know the environment we can easily spot what is legit or not, but that's not the case for a non-mtg player.
Cardkitty Facebook
My Card Gallery.