On my local store, it looks like EDH is the most played format. And I realize the demand of altering a card is pretty high. So I think I would like to open a commission job for my local store's people. I think I'm pretty good on altering, but I don't know how much should I charge them. Please help me determine the price for altering, thanks!
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On the one hand you need to make it worth your while if you're actually planning on making money. Let's say $10 an hour as a reasonable charge. Some alters will take longer than others, and therefore should cost more. Sometimes I spend one hour on an alter, sometimes I spend ten. You'll have to at least take this into consideration.
On the other hand, the art that takes me 10 hours to create might take a more experienced alterer about 2 hours, so you can't really justify charging $100 for much of anything.
Probably the best thing to do is to go on ebay and check some finished auctions for some of the better alters out there and use that as a benchmark. You can charge a little more than that since it's custom, but if you can't paint fast and well enough to make it worth your time... it may not be worth your time.
I generally charge between $20-35 for most alteration types.
I charge more, like $50+ for things I hate doing, time-intensive stuff, cards I really dislike matching colors on (Memory Jar, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Xiahou-Dun)
Cards will rarely take me more than 2 hours. Most things I do are 1 hour or so.
Anything involving carbon transfer is roughly 2 hours or so, depending on how much detail I'm getting into it. It is all about patience.
I generally charge between $20-35 for most alteration types.
20 bucks, really?
I am def at the upper range you stated und would never lift my brush for less than 30$. Even if you're quick you still have to bring the stuff to the post office and all...
Time is the most important variable to consider when determining rates. I spend upwards of 3-5 hours on any given alter. Factor in demand, supplies, shipping. Also, $10 is a little more than minimum wage in most parts of the States.
So if your work has any remote quality to it I'd say $30-$50 is a good ball park. Of course in the end it'll be what your customers are willing to pay.
I charge shipping on top of that as well, but supplies are factored in the price for altering.
Very true, it depends on the amount the customer is willing to pay. However, I rather work with clients who know that the substantial amount of time and effort necessary for good work does have its price, even if that means someone else gets commissioned.
It really depends. Right now I have my prices lowered a bit so I can take in more commissions.
Besides, if someone wants a simple extension, it will rarely take me longer than 30 min.
I don't mind the 40 per hour pay. *nod*
Lol also everyone skipped over where I said time taking things I charge 50+ for.
First of all, I want to say thank you for the replies!
I've tried to check the altered cards prices on Ebay but don't get a clue about determining the price, since on Ebay the price is determined by bidding.
And I don't quite understand how to determine the price by how much time I spent on altering. (I hardly remember how much time I spent)
From the replies, I noticed that the average price is about $20-$30. I'm grateful that I could make that much from altering, but I don't know if that is the right price because people at my local store prefer to buy cards at that price instead. (You know the expensive EDH staples...)
Below is my latest alter. It's a commission but not paid yet since the deal is the commissioner will pay after I give him the finished work.
I want to know your opinion, how much I could charge him for his request?
Thanks in advance
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It's kinda hard to make a firm price for something like this. Klug and Yawg are known commodities and can charge more than most other people, so their prices and your prices are not going to be the same.
Also, the amount of alteration makes a difference too. I would guess that $12-$15 for your Vault would be fair because it isn't a huge overhaul of the card. Blackbordering + small amount of alteration = about $10 seems right to me + cost of the card.
I know it's not the same thing, but for the most part, the alters that sell on ebay generally go for much less than a commission would cost. There is the occasional anomaly, but seeing a quality alter of a $0.25 common get $5 or a $10 rare "only" fetch $20 isn't out of the ordinary.
And I know the reason for that is that the appreciation of any particular art is very subjective (which is what leads to bidding wars that shoot the sale price way over what a commission would cost) but on average it seems the ebay bidders' views of how much an alter should cost differ greatly from that of the artists'.
I love good alters, but I personally can't justify paying $30 for an alter on a $5 card when the resale value might be half of that. Mind you, I wouldn't be trying to make any kind of profit, I just don't like actually spending money on cards; I prefer to borrow/invest in them. It wouldn't be unreasonable to imagine the artist listing the aforementioned $5 card on ebay themselves and only getting $20, so I think most of the time they are overcharging for commissions. I hate to sound crass, but honestly, most alterers don't deserve $10 an hour for their services.
I hate to sound crass, but I'M GONNA DO IT ANYWAY!!! GWAHAHA!!!!!
lol couldn't resist
What I get a lot is what you said, though.
There should be a card altering FAQ, and "How to Commission - Things to keep in mind" should be a section in it.
"But my card is a basic land, it should be cheaper to alter." WRONG. The price of a commission doesn't fluctuate based on the value of the card o_o
You are paying the alterer for their TIME and SUPPLIES.
I had a question of alter value come up for me a couple weekends ago. I traded some of the alters I've done, the first time I traded or sold any. I had a hard time knowing how to value them. I ended up trading a playset of altered Squadron Hawks for a Guru Mountain, and sold an altered Dark Ritual for $10. I think I let them go pretty cheap, since I haven't altered many cards, and I'm still getting the hang of it.
$10 per hour of work seems cheap to me, but it seems to be about what the market will bear for alters. $20 to $30 per hour of work seems very reasonable to me. The trick is now for me to develop the skills to fetch this price.
I was around when the first true extended arts began showing up on eBay, I think my debut page on MTGS was around pg 100 in the main Altered Art thread.
From the beginning Catherine and I watched eBay and through a lot of trial and error, we sort of came across that nobody has a problem with $10, most people will fork over a $20.
After that, the alterer has to at least be known, or the work has to be in the upper % of quality to get $30+ per.
I was around when the first true extended arts began showing up on eBay, I think my debut page on MTGS was around pg 100 in the main Altered Art thread.
From the beginning Catherine and I watched eBay and through a lot of trial and error, we sort of came across that nobody has a problem with $10, most people will fork over a $20.
After that, the alterer has to at least be known, or the work has to be in the upper % of quality to get $30+ per.
And yet people still have no idea how criminally low-priced altered cards usually are. When I do freelance design work my rate is $50 an hour and that is considered normal. When I was selling paintings they'd typically sell for $800-$2000 - again, normal for the size of the paintings. Selling an altered card for $15 took a while to get used to and part of why I don't really do it anymore. My formula was $10/hour + $5 for materials, shipping, and standing in line at the post office. It's just not worth it unless I am unemployed and want something to do with my time.
I hate to sound crass, but I'M GONNA DO IT ANYWAY!!! GWAHAHA!!!!!
lol couldn't resist
That's why I preempted that statement with "I love good alters". I really did hate having to sound crass, because I want good artists to be able to keep doing what they're doing, and for the subculture to continue to flourish. Personally, I just can't/won't take part in it since it costs what it does.
What I get a lot is what you said, though.
There should be a card altering FAQ, and "How to Commission - Things to keep in mind" should be a section in it.
"But my card is a basic land, it should be cheaper to alter." WRONG. The price of a commission doesn't fluctuate based on the value of the card o_o
You are paying the alterer for their TIME and SUPPLIES.
This section makes me think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. For the most part, I think a lot of the artists currently doing alters couldn't survive as professional painters, so charging a professional rate (even if it's just minimum wage or slightly over) is not completely realistic, and it seems ebay bidders tend to agree with that, judging by their bidding tendencies.
I don't think cheaper cards should cost less to commission unless the work is easier and/or less time-consuming, but at open auction I've found that most bidders feel the opposite. I know that I wouldn't feel right paying $30 for an alter on a $0.25 card, but paying an extra $30 on top of a $60 card feels much more reasonable. But that's really just human nature.
And yet people still have no idea how criminally low-priced altered cards usually are. When I do freelance design work my rate is $50 an hour and that is considered normal. When I was selling paintings they'd typically sell for $800-$2000 - again, normal for the size of the paintings. Selling an altered card for $15 took a while to get used to and part of why I don't really do it anymore. My formula was $10/hour + $5 for materials, shipping, and standing in line at the post office. It's just not worth it unless I am unemployed and want something to do with my time.
What you generally make for services not related to or semi-related to altering MTG cards is sort of irrelevant. A lawyer may make $200K a year at that profession and also have a hobby of altering cards to sell, but he most likely wouldn't be able to get away with charging $100 an hour for his artwork.
Again, no digs at either of you, or anyone who would consider themselves "a professional" in any capacity. I'm just pointing out that the market value for alters doesn't often mesh with what artists request or require for compensation.
Having never charged for an altered card, and as an extraordinarily former freelance artist, I can't imagine myself asking more than $5 if I were to do it for people who wanted one, regardless of time or medium. I'm being realistic because neither I nor the top alterers are actual Magic artists, where the bar to alter starts at $100, and only goes up. If someone said to me "Paint a Squirtle on this Masked Admirers." I'm not going to break down everything by time, supplies, and postage because, quite frankly, I'm pragmatic. It takes more time to put a loupe to every decimal point.
I admire the people who alter hardcore, who strive to match the styles of almost two hundred different artists, nearly half of whom are digital. I don't take issue with people who want a bikini-bearing anime girl on their Swamps. But I also don't believe that charging by the hour is reasonable, because it's not professional work. Professional work commands higher rates because it is professional.
Let me put it this way: How many alter artists would still alter cards for the same price they do now, if they were called up by Wizards to work on Magic?
But I also don't believe that charging by the hour is reasonable, because it's not professional work. Professional work commands higher rates because it is professional.
I'm coming from a unique perspective, but this generalization is pretty ridiculous. I've been altering for a living for the past 4 months and I consider what I do professional. I have a Fine Art degree and have worked as an artist professionally in the past. So while I have a basic rate for commission work, I still keep in mind how much time I'm spending on a work when it comes to charging.
If you're doing this purely as a hobby and a little bonus cash is just icing on the cake that's one thing, but to classify all alteration work as non-professional is absurd.
I'm coming from a unique perspective, but this generalization is pretty ridiculous. I've been altering for a living for the past 4 months and I consider what I do professional. I have a Fine Art degree and have worked as an artist professionally in the past. So while I have a basic rate for commission work, I still keep in mind how much time I'm spending on a work when it comes to charging.
If you're doing this purely as a hobby and a little bonus cash is just icing on the cake that's one thing, but to classify all alteration work as non-professional is absurd.
As I mentioned, it's just that the market at large is not in tune with how much artists want to charge. Some people with the desire and the means will still pay the price for commissions, but auctions generally don't see the same rate.
And I've noticed your auctions generally get a good price regardless, but then again cardkitty used to get $100+ for anime basics.
I'm coming from a unique perspective, but this generalization is pretty ridiculous. I've been altering for a living for the past 4 months and I consider what I do professional. I have a Fine Art degree and have worked as an artist professionally in the past. So while I have a basic rate for commission work, I still keep in mind how much time I'm spending on a work when it comes to charging.
If you're doing this purely as a hobby and a little bonus cash is just icing on the cake that's one thing, but to classify all alteration work as non-professional is absurd.
That's fine, except you say you consider what you do professional, yet make the distinction that you used to work as a professional artist. I don't think it's absurd to consider altering non-professional because at its core, altering is changing a Magic card that already exists. It's either expanding, parodying, or riffing on an idea that's already been expressed. There are good artists who do it, and maybe they do professional work in other industries too, but altering is still an extension of a finalized concept.
I'm not telling you what to charge or how you do your thing, I'm just offering my opinion. If what I'm saying is different from the people that buy your cards, who you ought to listen to should be obvious.
I'm going to jump in say that most of the time if someone does something for a living that makes them a professional at whatever it is they do.
That being said, I think as far as pricing is concerned I don't think there are any hard and fast rules about pricing. For the most part it is just what the market will bear. Quality and name recognition obviously help a lot in the price you can get for something. Also, I think at this point some of the better known alterers are developing enough name recognition that a piece by them simply carries value because it a piece by them.
I don't think cheaper cards should cost less to commission unless the work is easier and/or less time-consuming, but at open auction I've found that most bidders feel the opposite. I know that I wouldn't feel right paying $30 for an alter on a $0.25 card, but paying an extra $30 on top of a $60 card feels much more reasonable. But that's really just human nature.
Ebay auctions are really not a good baseline to justify prices for altering. Most people on Ebay are looking for a bargain and will naturally not pay much for *any* card. I've sold a lot of stuff on Ebay (Magic cards as well as other stuff) and I am still wondering why people just bid 5 bucks for a dual and that's it.
Also, most altered cards on Ebay are plain awful. Thing is, there are alteres who deliver quality work and alterer's who don't. The former have every right to charge a reasonable amount for their work. Quality has a price, that's it.
Ebay auctions are really not a good baseline to justify prices for altering. Most people on Ebay are looking for a bargain and will naturally not pay much for *any* card. I've sold a lot of stuff on Ebay (Magic cards as well as other stuff) and I am still wondering why people just bid 5 bucks for a dual and that's it.
Also, most altered cards on Ebay are plain awful. Thing is, there are alteres who deliver quality work and alterer's who don't. The former have every right to charge a reasonable amount for their work. Quality has a price, that's it.
And my argument is that most artist's commission prices are not a good baseline for prices. Like I said, good artists can charge the higher rates and there are people out there that will pay it, but most people don't feel like the service is worth it. The point is that the "reasonable amount" differs between buyer and seller, on average.
When someone who commissions an alter, it's like they are commissioning a baby. When it's done, it won't be nearly as special to others as it is to them.
And my argument is that most artist's commission prices are not a good baseline for prices. Like I said, good artists can charge the higher rates and there are people out there that will pay it, but most people don't feel like the service is worth it. The point is that the "reasonable amount" differs between buyer and seller, on average.
When someone who commissions an alter, it's like they are commissioning a baby. When it's done, it won't be nearly as special to others as it is to them.
No, your initial argument was that most alteres don't deserve their rate/hour and that they are overcharging their service due to what you saw on Ebay.
If that's your argument now, so why discuss this at all? Some people spend a whole lot of money on cars, others don't. Some people spend a whole lot of money on watches while others don't because it doesn't have the same value for them.
Same for alters. If you don't wanna spend amount x for a commission that's fine. Others will do - so what?
No, your initial argument was that most alteres don't deserve their rate/hour and that they are overcharging their service due to what you saw on Ebay.
If that's your argument now, so why discuss this at all? Some people spend a whole lot of money on cars, others don't. Some people spend a whole lot of money on watches while others don't because it doesn't have the same value for them.
Same for alters. If you don't wanna spend amount x for a commission that's fine. Others will do - so what?
Exactly, and that's still my argument. Not saying there's anything wrong with it, it's just unrealistic for most people. The OP was asking what a beginner should charge and more experienced alterers came here possibly filling his head with illusions of grandeur, so I tried to ground the discussion a little more.
"Dream creates future."
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-- EDH --
B Seizan, Perverter of Truth B
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=417779
On the other hand, the art that takes me 10 hours to create might take a more experienced alterer about 2 hours, so you can't really justify charging $100 for much of anything.
Probably the best thing to do is to go on ebay and check some finished auctions for some of the better alters out there and use that as a benchmark. You can charge a little more than that since it's custom, but if you can't paint fast and well enough to make it worth your time... it may not be worth your time.
I charge more, like $50+ for things I hate doing, time-intensive stuff, cards I really dislike matching colors on (Memory Jar, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Xiahou-Dun)
Cards will rarely take me more than 2 hours. Most things I do are 1 hour or so.
Anything involving carbon transfer is roughly 2 hours or so, depending on how much detail I'm getting into it. It is all about patience.
20 bucks, really?
I am def at the upper range you stated und would never lift my brush for less than 30$. Even if you're quick you still have to bring the stuff to the post office and all...
My gallery of altered cards
So if your work has any remote quality to it I'd say $30-$50 is a good ball park. Of course in the end it'll be what your customers are willing to pay.
Facebook.
Alters Blog.
Very true, it depends on the amount the customer is willing to pay. However, I rather work with clients who know that the substantial amount of time and effort necessary for good work does have its price, even if that means someone else gets commissioned.
My gallery of altered cards
Besides, if someone wants a simple extension, it will rarely take me longer than 30 min.
I don't mind the 40 per hour pay. *nod*
Lol also everyone skipped over where I said time taking things I charge 50+ for.
I've tried to check the altered cards prices on Ebay but don't get a clue about determining the price, since on Ebay the price is determined by bidding.
And I don't quite understand how to determine the price by how much time I spent on altering. (I hardly remember how much time I spent)
From the replies, I noticed that the average price is about $20-$30. I'm grateful that I could make that much from altering, but I don't know if that is the right price because people at my local store prefer to buy cards at that price instead. (You know the expensive EDH staples...)
Below is my latest alter. It's a commission but not paid yet since the deal is the commissioner will pay after I give him the finished work.
I want to know your opinion, how much I could charge him for his request?
Thanks in advance
"Dream creates future."
http://levelten.deviantart.com/
-- EDH --
B Seizan, Perverter of Truth B
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=417779
Also, the amount of alteration makes a difference too. I would guess that $12-$15 for your Vault would be fair because it isn't a huge overhaul of the card. Blackbordering + small amount of alteration = about $10 seems right to me + cost of the card.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
And I know the reason for that is that the appreciation of any particular art is very subjective (which is what leads to bidding wars that shoot the sale price way over what a commission would cost) but on average it seems the ebay bidders' views of how much an alter should cost differ greatly from that of the artists'.
I love good alters, but I personally can't justify paying $30 for an alter on a $5 card when the resale value might be half of that. Mind you, I wouldn't be trying to make any kind of profit, I just don't like actually spending money on cards; I prefer to borrow/invest in them. It wouldn't be unreasonable to imagine the artist listing the aforementioned $5 card on ebay themselves and only getting $20, so I think most of the time they are overcharging for commissions. I hate to sound crass, but honestly, most alterers don't deserve $10 an hour for their services.
lol couldn't resist
What I get a lot is what you said, though.
There should be a card altering FAQ, and "How to Commission - Things to keep in mind" should be a section in it.
"But my card is a basic land, it should be cheaper to alter."
WRONG. The price of a commission doesn't fluctuate based on the value of the card o_o
You are paying the alterer for their TIME and SUPPLIES.
$10 per hour of work seems cheap to me, but it seems to be about what the market will bear for alters. $20 to $30 per hour of work seems very reasonable to me. The trick is now for me to develop the skills to fetch this price.
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From the beginning Catherine and I watched eBay and through a lot of trial and error, we sort of came across that nobody has a problem with $10, most people will fork over a $20.
After that, the alterer has to at least be known, or the work has to be in the upper % of quality to get $30+ per.
And yet people still have no idea how criminally low-priced altered cards usually are. When I do freelance design work my rate is $50 an hour and that is considered normal. When I was selling paintings they'd typically sell for $800-$2000 - again, normal for the size of the paintings. Selling an altered card for $15 took a while to get used to and part of why I don't really do it anymore. My formula was $10/hour + $5 for materials, shipping, and standing in line at the post office. It's just not worth it unless I am unemployed and want something to do with my time.
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
That's why I preempted that statement with "I love good alters". I really did hate having to sound crass, because I want good artists to be able to keep doing what they're doing, and for the subculture to continue to flourish. Personally, I just can't/won't take part in it since it costs what it does.
This section makes me think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. For the most part, I think a lot of the artists currently doing alters couldn't survive as professional painters, so charging a professional rate (even if it's just minimum wage or slightly over) is not completely realistic, and it seems ebay bidders tend to agree with that, judging by their bidding tendencies.
I don't think cheaper cards should cost less to commission unless the work is easier and/or less time-consuming, but at open auction I've found that most bidders feel the opposite. I know that I wouldn't feel right paying $30 for an alter on a $0.25 card, but paying an extra $30 on top of a $60 card feels much more reasonable. But that's really just human nature.
What you generally make for services not related to or semi-related to altering MTG cards is sort of irrelevant. A lawyer may make $200K a year at that profession and also have a hobby of altering cards to sell, but he most likely wouldn't be able to get away with charging $100 an hour for his artwork.
Again, no digs at either of you, or anyone who would consider themselves "a professional" in any capacity. I'm just pointing out that the market value for alters doesn't often mesh with what artists request or require for compensation.
I admire the people who alter hardcore, who strive to match the styles of almost two hundred different artists, nearly half of whom are digital. I don't take issue with people who want a bikini-bearing anime girl on their Swamps. But I also don't believe that charging by the hour is reasonable, because it's not professional work. Professional work commands higher rates because it is professional.
Let me put it this way: How many alter artists would still alter cards for the same price they do now, if they were called up by Wizards to work on Magic?
I'm coming from a unique perspective, but this generalization is pretty ridiculous. I've been altering for a living for the past 4 months and I consider what I do professional. I have a Fine Art degree and have worked as an artist professionally in the past. So while I have a basic rate for commission work, I still keep in mind how much time I'm spending on a work when it comes to charging.
If you're doing this purely as a hobby and a little bonus cash is just icing on the cake that's one thing, but to classify all alteration work as non-professional is absurd.
Facebook.
Alters Blog.
As I mentioned, it's just that the market at large is not in tune with how much artists want to charge. Some people with the desire and the means will still pay the price for commissions, but auctions generally don't see the same rate.
And I've noticed your auctions generally get a good price regardless, but then again cardkitty used to get $100+ for anime basics.
That's fine, except you say you consider what you do professional, yet make the distinction that you used to work as a professional artist. I don't think it's absurd to consider altering non-professional because at its core, altering is changing a Magic card that already exists. It's either expanding, parodying, or riffing on an idea that's already been expressed. There are good artists who do it, and maybe they do professional work in other industries too, but altering is still an extension of a finalized concept.
I'm not telling you what to charge or how you do your thing, I'm just offering my opinion. If what I'm saying is different from the people that buy your cards, who you ought to listen to should be obvious.
That being said, I think as far as pricing is concerned I don't think there are any hard and fast rules about pricing. For the most part it is just what the market will bear. Quality and name recognition obviously help a lot in the price you can get for something. Also, I think at this point some of the better known alterers are developing enough name recognition that a piece by them simply carries value because it a piece by them.
Ebay auctions are really not a good baseline to justify prices for altering. Most people on Ebay are looking for a bargain and will naturally not pay much for *any* card. I've sold a lot of stuff on Ebay (Magic cards as well as other stuff) and I am still wondering why people just bid 5 bucks for a dual and that's it.
Also, most altered cards on Ebay are plain awful. Thing is, there are alteres who deliver quality work and alterer's who don't. The former have every right to charge a reasonable amount for their work. Quality has a price, that's it.
My gallery of altered cards
And my argument is that most artist's commission prices are not a good baseline for prices. Like I said, good artists can charge the higher rates and there are people out there that will pay it, but most people don't feel like the service is worth it. The point is that the "reasonable amount" differs between buyer and seller, on average.
When someone who commissions an alter, it's like they are commissioning a baby. When it's done, it won't be nearly as special to others as it is to them.
No, your initial argument was that most alteres don't deserve their rate/hour and that they are overcharging their service due to what you saw on Ebay.
If that's your argument now, so why discuss this at all? Some people spend a whole lot of money on cars, others don't. Some people spend a whole lot of money on watches while others don't because it doesn't have the same value for them.
Same for alters. If you don't wanna spend amount x for a commission that's fine. Others will do - so what?
My gallery of altered cards
Exactly, and that's still my argument. Not saying there's anything wrong with it, it's just unrealistic for most people. The OP was asking what a beginner should charge and more experienced alterers came here possibly filling his head with illusions of grandeur, so I tried to ground the discussion a little more.
It's never ceased to be about prices.