The most current LabCB really intrigued me. What is the slowest possible deck?
The current record holder is this deck which wins in a jaw dropping 179,769,313,486,231,590,772,930,519,078,902,473,361,797,697,894,230,657,273,430,081,157,732,675,805,500,963,132,708,477,322,
407,536,021,120,113,879,871,393,357,658,789,768,814,416,622,492,847,430,639,474,124,377,767,893,424,865,485,276,302,219,601,246,094,119,453,082,952,
085,005,768,838,150,682,342,462,881,473,913,110,540,827,237,163,350,510,684,586,298,239,947,245,938,479,716,304,835,356,329,624,224,146,450 turns...
The only way to win is to attack with Magus of the Tabernacle ten times.
One must sacrifice Lotus Bloom for three white mana to cast it, after which one can never get Lotus Bloom back.
Magus of the Tabernacle gives all creatures upkeep costs of {1}, including itself.
Eldrazi Spawn tokens from Growth Spasm are the only way to pay for that, but they also have upkeep costs from Magus of the Tabernacle.
Because of that, once Magus of the Tabernacle is on the battlefield, one must sacrifice half of one's creatures to pay for the upkeep costs of the other half every upkeep.
Growth Spasm cannot be cast once Lotus Bloom is lost.
Therefore, one must have 1023 Eldrazi Spawn tokens after Magus of the Tabernacle is cast, and one more is needed to cast it, for a total of 1024.
To get those, one must repeatedly retrieve Growth Spasm and Lotus Bloom with Dwell on the Past and Doomsday, and must also have Emerald Medallion on the battlefield.
Doomsday halves one's life total each time; one must gain life to survive it.
Ivory Tower is the only way to gain life, but once Emerald Medallion is cast, one can never gain life from Ivory Tower again; therefore, enough life must be gained beforehand.
Putting everything together, here is what one should do.
(At the start of each of the following lines is the turn number.)
1 Suspend Lotus Bloom.
4 Get Lotus Bloom, sacrifice it for three green mana, and cast Ivory Tower and Dwell on the Past targeting Lotus Bloom.
5 Draw Lotus Bloom and suspend Lotus Bloom.
8 Get Lotus Bloom, sacrifice it for three black mana, cast Doomsday, put Lotus Bloom and Dwell on the Past into one's library, and lose 10 life.
9 Draw one of those cards.
10 Draw the other one.
11 Gain 1 life from Ivory Tower, making one's life total 11.
12 Gain 1 life from Ivory Tower, making one's life total 12.
13 Gain 1 life from Ivory Tower, making one's life total 13.
[continue in the same way]
2^1024 Gain 1 life from Ivory Tower, making one's life total 2^1024, and suspend Lotus Bloom.
2^1024+3 Get Lotus Bloom, sacrifice it for three green mana, cast Emerald Medallion, and cast Dwell on the Past targeting Lotus Bloom and Doomsday.
2^1024+4 Draw Doomsday.
2^1024+5 Draw Lotus Bloom and suspend Lotus Bloom.
2^1024+8 Get Lotus Bloom, sacrifice it for three black mana, cast Doomsday, put Lotus Bloom and Dwell on the Past into one's library in that order, and lose 2^1023 life.
2^1024+9 Draw Lotus Bloom and suspend Lotus Bloom.
2^1024+10 Draw Dwell on the Past.
2^1024+12 Get Lotus Bloom, sacrifice it for three green mana, cast Dwell on the Past targeting Lotus Bloom and Doomsday, and cast Growth Spasm; there is no basic land to find, but one still gets an Eldrazi Spawn token.
2^1024+13 Draw Doomsday.
2^1024+14 Draw Lotus Bloom and suspend Lotus Bloom.
2^1024+17 Get Lotus Bloom, sacrifice it for three black mana, cast Doomsday, put Lotus Bloom, Dwell on the Past, and Growth Spasm into one's library in that order, and lose 2^1022 life.
2^1024+18 Draw Lotus Bloom and suspend Lotus Bloom.
2^1024+19 Draw Dwell on the Past.
2^1024+20 Draw Growth Spasm.
2^1024+21 [Repeat from seven lines above, 1022 times.]
2^1024+9219 Get Lotus Bloom, sacrifice it for three green mana, cast Dwell on the Past targeting Lotus Bloom and Doomsday, and cast Growth Spasm; there is no basic land to find, but one still gets an Eldrazi Spawn token.
2^1024+9220 Draw Doomsday.
2^1024+9221 Draw Lotus Bloom and suspend Lotus Bloom.
2^1024+9224 Get Lotus Bloom, sacrifice Lotus Bloom for three white mana and one Eldrazi Spawn token for one colourless mana, and cast Magus of the Tabernacle.
2^1024+9225 Sacrifice 512 Eldrazi Spawn tokens to pay for the upkeep costs of the other creatures and have Magus of the Tabernacle attack.
2^1024+9226 Sacrifice 256 Eldrazi Spawn tokens to pay for the upkeep costs of the other creatures and have Magus of the Tabernacle attack.
2^1024+9227 Sacrifice 128 Eldrazi Spawn tokens to pay for the upkeep costs of the other creatures and have Magus of the Tabernacle attack.
2^1024+9228 Sacrifice 64 Eldrazi Spawn tokens to pay for the upkeep costs of the other creatures and have Magus of the Tabernacle attack.
2^1024+9229 Sacrifice 32 Eldrazi Spawn tokens to pay for the upkeep costs of the other creatures and have Magus of the Tabernacle attack.
2^1024+9230 Sacrifice 16 Eldrazi Spawn tokens to pay for the upkeep costs of the other creatures and have Magus of the Tabernacle attack.
2^1024+9231 Sacrifice 8 Eldrazi Spawn tokens to pay for the upkeep costs of the other creatures and have Magus of the Tabernacle attack.
2^1024+9232 Sacrifice 4 Eldrazi Spawn tokens to pay for the upkeep costs of the other creatures and have Magus of the Tabernacle attack.
2^1024+9233 Sacrifice 2 Eldrazi Spawn tokens to pay for the upkeep costs of the other creatures and have Magus of the Tabernacle attack.
2^1024+9234 Sacrifice the last Eldrazi Spawn token to pay for the upkeep cost of Magus of the Tabernacle, have Magus of the Tabernacle attack, and win the game.
That is 2^1024+9234 or 179,769,313,486,231,590,772,930,519,078,902,473,361,797,697,894,230,657,273,430,081,157,732,675,805,500,963,132,708,477,322,
407,536,021,120,113,879,871,393,357,658,789,768,814,416,622,492,847,430,639,474,124,377,767,893,424,865,485,276,302,219,601,246,094,119,453,082,952,
085,005,768,838,150,682,342,462,881,473,913,110,540,827,237,163,350,510,684,586,298,239,947,245,938,479,716,304,835,356,329,624,224,146,450 turns.
Plan:
1. Play Springjack Pasture and Molten Slagheap. Make goats (1 every 5 turns).
2. Play Vedalken Orrery and Pyromania. Sac Pyromania for 1 damage to opponent. Sac goats for lots of life/red mana.
3. Play Doomsday. Respond to it with Infernal Contract. Respond with Reiterate (with buyback) copying Doomsday. Return Pyromania to library.
4. Copy Infernal Contract to draw Pyromania. Play Pyromania and sac it for another damage. Repeat until opponent is dead.
It wins at an incredible 30,000 turns into the game.
The other deck , a 5CB deck, (can't find it right now...) was based around Sustaining Spirit and Followed Footsteps with a bunch of inefficient ways to generate mana.
It won at a respectable 14k turns (iirc...).
The rules for that week were this,
"Revenge of 7 card backbuild:
Submit 7 cards that begin the game in your hand. You don't lose due to drawing from an empty library. Your deck must beat the test deck (below), but attempt to lose to every other deck. IN ADDITION, your deck must beat the test deck if any number of cards in the test deck (including zero) are either replaced with basic lands or removed entirely. There is no land rule. You may submit cards in the test deck, but I encourage you not to, since they are all blanks.
Test deck: Evermind + Circling vultures + Darksteel relic + Brutal suppression + Adventurer's guildhouse + Darksteel Relic + Land Grant
(Yes, I removed plowbeast -- we can't have the test deck casting it!)
IN ADDITION, your deck must beat the test deck if any number of cards in the test deck (including zero) are either replaced with basic lands or removed entirely.
- If there is a way to beat this based upon the rules, then the rules will be changed.
- The goal is to make the slowest deck possible.
- All cards are legal as long as they have been officially spoiled.
The game is making the slowest deck possible. This game is more of a communal one. We are trying collectively to make a slow deck. They will not face each other. We are just trying to one-up each other, combine ideas and produce a monster of a slow deck.
343,597,383,580 is the number of turns to beat. I hope we can... get somewhere near infinity?....?
Just having 20 Sustaining Spirits required enormous amounts of mana. My goal is to require thousands of Sustaining Spirits to be on the battlefield at the same time.
Deck idea:
T1, Calciform Pools
T2, Forbidden Orchard, Wall of Shards (enemy token at 1)
T3, Forbidden Orchards (et@2) taps for 1 storage counter on Calicform.
T4, Forbidden Orchard taps for 2 storage counters on Calciform (et@3) - This deck blocks and takes minimal damage.
T5, Forbidden Orchard taps for a R and Calciform removes 2 counters, cast Curse of Nightly Hunt (et@4)
T6 - ~T9 wait and let the enemy creatures kill themselves on the Wall.
T10 -> ????? - Restart mana engine. Each turn 1 creature is put on the enemy's side. That creature kills itself.
Can this deck even win?
Pump spell may have to be changed in order to compensate for insane lifegain...
This is awesome, and I really love how the rules are the same -- the banned list is really funny compared to the strength of other cards in the format.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europeβs population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
What if that creature was Wall of shards powering that wall that deals damage = # of defenders you have? You might need an aura swap in there...
It seems like cumulative upkeep is the best way to go. Is there anything that grows at a faster rate that we can take advantage of? There are creatures that will double, but.. then we can attack... unless a mana source prevents us from attacking with them. How would we use doubling creatures if we could?
Is there anything like Research that can only bring in basic lands?
Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europeβs population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
I think we need formulas if we ever want to come close to getting the 1 million turn goal. I have no idea how to figure out and graph the potential values.
The 153,000 turn number was based on my calculation for what Fnord proved to be suboptimal play from my deck. with optimal play it can actually win in about 30,000 turns. (Just an Fyi in case someone finds a deck that wins between turns 30,000 and 153,000.)
Just having 20 Sustaining Spirits required enormous amounts of mana. My goal is to require thousands of Sustaining Spirits to be on the battlefield at the same time.
Deck idea:
T1, Calciform Pools
T2, Forbidden Orchard, Wall of Shards (enemy token at 1)
T3, Forbidden Orchards (et@2) taps for 1 storage counter on Calicform.
T4, Forbidden Orchard taps for 2 storage counters on Calciform (et@3) - This deck blocks and takes minimal damage.
T5, Forbidden Orchard taps for a R and Calciform removes 2 counters, cast Curse of Nightly Hunt (et@4)
T6 - ~T9 wait and let the enemy creatures kill themselves on the Wall.
T10 -> ????? - Restart mana engine. Each turn 1 creature is put on the enemy's side. That creature kills itself.
Can this deck even win?
Pump spell may have to be changed in order to compensate for insane lifegain...
That deck can't actually win. the 1 token with 1 power per turn from gleam and footsteps can't keep up with cumulative lifegain.
As you hinted though a change in pump spells would help. Haze of rage should do it.
It's buyback and storm and the cumulative lifegain are both polynomial series I think. and the creatures from footsteps gives it a larger coefficient. You won't need to pay very many sustaining spirit upkeeps though so I'm not sure how slow it'd actually be.:-/
oh and I guess that would ruin the mana base, huh?:embarrass: maybe swap the sustaining spirit for a 0 power red/blue creature.
and yeah cumualtive upkeeps (polynomial series) and doubling(exponential series) are the way to go about getting any large number.
You play wall, get to 9 charges in the pools, so opponent has 65 life. Then you don't pay the upkeep and cast leviathan. You then build up charges to Footsteps, 5 turns, currently turn 15. Then you wait until footsteps has made 64 more creatures. Eventually killing turn 79.
You play wall, get to 9 charges in the pools, so opponent has 65 life. Then you don't pay the upkeep and cast leviathan. You then build up charges to Footsteps, 5 turns, currently turn 15. Then you wait until footsteps has made 64 more creatures. Eventually killing turn 79.
So the idea was,
1. Put out Ajani's Mantra and just wait. Mantra must keep you alive.
2. Use Remote Farm and Forbidden Orchard to put out Upwelling
3. Keep tapping Forbidden Orchard to gain mana. Mantra keeps you alive because we've waited a while.
4. Build up enough mana to cast Sustaining Spirit/Followed Footsteps.
5. Sustaining Spirit must have enough to go through the ENORMOUS amount of Forbidden Orchard dudes.
6. Win somehow.
buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut I'm off by 1 mana. Kinda sad. The process might be able to be tweaked and I think that something like this has potential.
Here you have 2 series of cumulative upkeeps, the Naked Singularity to make white mana and 20 sustaining Spirits with Followed Footsteps to win. To pay for the spirits you need 1 white mana, then 3, then 6, 10, 15, 21, 28, 36, 45, 55, 66, 78, 91, 105, 120. Total that is 680 plus 2 for Morale and 1 for playing the spirit and 2 blue for the Footsteps, so we need to keep the Naked Singularity alive for 685 turns. That costs ((1+685*3)*685)/2=704780 mana. 704780+3 for suspend of Lotus Bloom +5 for playing Naked Singularity +680 for the collorless part of the upkeep of the Spirits +3 for the collorless part of Followed Footsteps +1 for the collorless part of Morale=705472, that gives a win on turn 705472.
Here you have 2 series of cumulative upkeeps, the Naked Singularity to make white mana and 20 sustaining Spirits with Followed Footsteps to win. To pay for the spirits you need 1 white mana, then 3, then 6, 10, 15, 21, 28, 36, 45, 55, 66, 78, 91, 105, 120. Total that is 680 plus 2 for Morale and 1 for playing the spirit and 2 blue for the Footsteps, so we need to keep the Naked Singularity alive for 685 turns. That costs ((1+685*3)*685)/2=704780 mana. 704780+3 for suspend of Lotus Bloom +5 for playing Naked Singularity +680 for the collorless part of the upkeep of the Spirits +3 for the collorless part of Followed Footsteps +1 for the collorless part of Morale=705472, that gives a win on turn 705472.
Forbidden Orchard -> Golden Urn
Gut Shot the token
Wait
Wait
Wait
Lotus Bloom-> Upwelling
Sac Golden Urn for Life
Play Mirror of Fate
Use Restock to re-buy Gut Shot and poke the Opponent with it (you can also re-buy Lotus Bloom, but only once)
Use Mirror of Fate to re-buy Restock
Use Restock to re-buy Mirror of Fate and Gut Shot
Poke the opponent with Gut Shut
repeat the last 3 steps
I'm not sure how slow it is, I'm guessing only a few thousand turns
The idea is to require a continued input of one colored mana of a different color than the deck's storage land, so that Halls / Chasm must be kept around for a number of turns, either doubling the number of turns for attacks (in addition to the upkeep of Halls) or requiring a significant amount of life gain first with Chasm (though the attacking restriction could be a problem).
I'm just throwing this idea out there in case it helps.
EDIT: I had forgotten that Unstable Frontier causes the targetted land to lose its other abilities. As a result, Halls doesn't seem viable, but Glacial Chasm actually improves - the cumulative upkeep ability will still trigger, but the attacking restriction won't exist.
The idea is to require a continued input of one colored mana of a different color than the deck's storage land, so that Halls / Chasm must be kept around for a number of turns, either doubling the number of turns for attacks (in addition to the upkeep of Halls) or requiring a significant amount of life gain first with Chasm (though the attacking restriction could be a problem).
What about Aquitect's Will? It might work instead of Unstable Frontier. It can also be combined with Naked Singularity for more shenanigans.
-----------
- Ajani's Mantra must take a turn for each damage done.
- So we have to figure out how much mana Sustaining Spirit + Following Footsteps for 20 turns requires.
- N = Total mana cost, For every mana created a 1/1 will be created that attacks each turn.
- (1+ (total mana cost)*((total mana cost)/2) = the amount of damage taken from the 1/1's attacking in order to get to the total mana cost.
- The total damage taken (+20 more turns of it and atleast 1 damage to survive) equal about the amount of turns for this deck to win.
I think this might be high, but I need to double check my work before I submit it.
---
Further thoughts,
Remote Farm and Ajani's Mantra can be changed out for Golden Urn or Tanglebloom. (also looking at Taste of Paradise and Well of Life)
That leaves 1 card open. Muahahahahahahahahhahahahaha
The way it works,
1. Put down Calciform, then Forbidden.
2. Cast Wall of Shards (enemy token at 1)
3. Fill up Calciform just enough to cast Recumbent Bliss and cast it on an enemy token(enemy tokens around 5 or so)
- The wall can block and kill one a turn, so life shouldn't be a problem getting to Recumbent Bliss
4. Don't do anything. Wall blocks any attackers. Life starts to go up once the enemy tokens stop attacking.
5. Keep waiting, I gain 1 hp per round...
Actually, they might be gaining too much. Will need to math it up.
Crap... Haze of Rage might have to replace Zealous Persecution.
- Ajani's Mantra must take a turn for each damage done.
- So we have to figure out how much mana Sustaining Spirit + Following Footsteps for 20 turns requires.
- N = Total mana cost, For every mana created a 1/1 will be created that attacks each turn.
- (1+ (total mana cost)*((total mana cost)/2) = the amount of damage taken from the 1/1's attacking in order to get to the total mana cost.
- The total damage taken (+20 more turns of it and atleast 1 damage to survive) equal about the amount of turns for this deck to win.
2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+22+24+26+28+30+32+34+36+38+40+2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+22+24+26+28+30+32+34+36+38+2+4+6+8+10+
12+14+16+18+20+22+24+26+28+30+32+34+36+2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+22+24+26+28+30+32+34)+2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+22+24+
26+28+30+32+2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+22+24+26+28+30+2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+22+24+26+28+ 2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+22+24+26+2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+22+24+2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20
+22+2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+2+4+6+8+10+12+
14+2+4+6+8+10+12+2+4+6+8+10+2+4+6+8+2+4+6+2+4+2=3080
- Required Mana for spirit for 20 turns.
Because 3080 mana is need, I will need to be able to eat a much higher amount of damage to get there because of the tokens attacking.
(1+ (3080)*((3080)/2)=4,743,201
This is the life required to be able to take 3080 turns of those tokens attacking.
So my guess would be that this deck takes somewhere around 4,746,281 turns to win.
I also think this can be made even worse once Golden Urn or Tanglebloom is added.
nevermind, this idea is flawed. You can just Following Footsteps the enemy token. Im kinda sad right now...
Soul Foundry may be a way out of this...
-----
Test cards for tomorrow: Delaying Shield just like life but with a possible higher cost. Should work really well. Soul Echo Jank. Must be good for this. Juju Bubble this has to be good. I want to combine it with shrine of the green thing.
Bubbling Beebles lets us play any enchantment and donate it... and if that enchantment is Volition reins we now have a way to give our opponent any permanent...
Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europeβs population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
During each iteration, we lose 1/2 of our life twice. We need 18 iterations total, since on the last one we can discard the Reiterate for an extra damage. So we need 4^18=68719476736 life. At one goat every 5 turns, that equals 343597383580 turns, plus an extra few to store the 6 black mana needed.
The basic loop is as follows:
1. Pyromania is sacrificed for 1 damage.
2. Doomsday puts Pyromania on top of your library (as it's the only card there), at the cost of half your life.
3. Infernal Contract draws Pyromania, at the cost of half your life.
4. Play Pyromania and repeat.
Doomsday and Infernal Contract in the above description are actually copies created by bought-back Reiterate. The originals sit on the stack and never resolve (except during the last iteration, if you want).
"4. Copy Infernal Contract to draw Pyromania. Play Pyromania and sac it for another damage. Repeat until opponent is dead."
Getting from here back to
"3. Play Doomsday. Respond to it with Infernal Contract. Respond with Reiterate (with buyback) copying Doomsday. Return Pyromania to library."
So the enchantment etb, then it sac itself, where does that go on the stack? Responding to the Doomsday that responded to it entering the battlefield...? I'm kinda terrible at stack related timings.
"4. Copy Infernal Contract to draw Pyromania. Play Pyromania and sac it for another damage. Repeat until opponent is dead."
Getting from here back to
"3. Play Doomsday. Respond to it with Infernal Contract. Respond with Reiterate (with buyback) copying Doomsday. Return Pyromania to library."
So the enchantment etb, then it sac itself, where does that go on the stack? Responding to the Doomsday that responded to it entering the battlefield...? I'm kinda terrible at stack related timings.
Basically, at the beginning of the loop you stick Doomsday and Infernal Contract on the stack. You don't let them resolve (optionally, you can at the very end); the entire loop is done in response. Vedalken Orrery allows you to do everything you need at instant speed.
Since they're on the stack, you can use Reiterate to make a copy of either. Since Reiterate has buyback, you can do this as many times as you want. Esentially, Reiterate now says
Reiterate4RR
Instant
Choose one β Put a card from your graveyard on top of your library, or draw a card.
You lose half your life, rounded up.
So you sac Pyromania, use the first mode to put in back in your library, then use the second mode to draw it. Cast it and repeat.
Infernal Contract draws four cards, and Doomsday shuffles 5; can't we discard, reshuffle, and redraw Reiterate on EACH iteration, reducing the number of rounds from 18 to 9?
Infernal Contract draws four cards, and Doomsday shuffles 5; can't we discard, reshuffle, and redraw Reiterate on EACH iteration, reducing the number of rounds from 18 to 9?
At this point we can copy the Doomsday, but we have no way to draw back the Infernal Contract. And even if we did, we've already lost half our life twice this iteration. So I'm not seeing how we get any faster.
Do you have a specific sequence of actions in mind?
The current record holder is this deck which wins in a jaw dropping 179,769,313,486,231,590,772,930,519,078,902,473,361,797,697,894,230,657,273,430,081,157,732,675,805,500,963,132,708,477,322,
407,536,021,120,113,879,871,393,357,658,789,768,814,416,622,492,847,430,639,474,124,377,767,893,424,865,485,276,302,219,601,246,094,119,453,082,952,
085,005,768,838,150,682,342,462,881,473,913,110,540,827,237,163,350,510,684,586,298,239,947,245,938,479,716,304,835,356,329,624,224,146,450 turns...
by
Other good decks:
fnord
Doomsday
Infernal Contract
Reiterate
Vedalken Orrery
Springjack Pasture
Molten Slagheap
Pyromania
Plan:
1. Play Springjack Pasture and Molten Slagheap. Make goats (1 every 5 turns).
2. Play Vedalken Orrery and Pyromania. Sac Pyromania for 1 damage to opponent. Sac goats for lots of life/red mana.
3. Play Doomsday. Respond to it with Infernal Contract. Respond with Reiterate (with buyback) copying Doomsday. Return Pyromania to library.
4. Copy Infernal Contract to draw Pyromania. Play Pyromania and sac it for another damage. Repeat until opponent is dead.
5 casual johnny :: 0-6 vs wirecat
Upwelling
Lotus Bloom
Mistveil Plains
Cold Snap
Cold Snap
Forbidden Orchard
Krovikan Whispers
It wins at an incredible 30,000 turns into the game.
The other deck , a 5CB deck, (can't find it right now...) was based around Sustaining Spirit and Followed Footsteps with a bunch of inefficient ways to generate mana.
It won at a respectable 14k turns (iirc...).
The rules for that week were this,
"Revenge of 7 card backbuild:
Submit 7 cards that begin the game in your hand. You don't lose due to drawing from an empty library. Your deck must beat the test deck (below), but attempt to lose to every other deck. IN ADDITION, your deck must beat the test deck if any number of cards in the test deck (including zero) are either replaced with basic lands or removed entirely. There is no land rule. You may submit cards in the test deck, but I encourage you not to, since they are all blanks.
Test deck: Evermind + Circling vultures + Darksteel relic + Brutal suppression + Adventurer's guildhouse + Darksteel Relic + Land Grant
(Yes, I removed plowbeast -- we can't have the test deck casting it!)
Banned cards:
Rainbow Vale
Flailing Soldier
Impatience
Copper Tablet" (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=407137)
So, the challenge is simple. Using the 7cbb rules from LabCB, we make the slowest possible deck.
Test deck: Evermind + Circling vultures + Darksteel relic + Brutal suppression + Adventurer's guildhouse + Darksteel Relic + Land Grant
Banned cards:
Rainbow Vale
Flailing Soldier
Impatience
Copper Tablet
IN ADDITION, your deck must beat the test deck if any number of cards in the test deck (including zero) are either replaced with basic lands or removed entirely.
- If there is a way to beat this based upon the rules, then the rules will be changed.
- The goal is to make the slowest deck possible.
- All cards are legal as long as they have been officially spoiled.
The game is making the slowest deck possible. This game is more of a communal one. We are trying collectively to make a slow deck. They will not face each other. We are just trying to one-up each other, combine ideas and produce a monster of a slow deck.
343,597,383,580 is the number of turns to beat. I hope we can... get somewhere near infinity?....?
I'm trying to combine Wall of Shards with Sustaining Spirit and Followed Footsteps with a +1/+1 instant.
Just having 20 Sustaining Spirits required enormous amounts of mana. My goal is to require thousands of Sustaining Spirits to be on the battlefield at the same time.
Current deck:
Curse of the Nightly Hunt
Gleam of Resistance
Wall of Shards
Sustaining Spirit
Followed Footsteps
Forbidden Orchard
Calciform Pools
Deck idea:
T1, Calciform Pools
T2, Forbidden Orchard, Wall of Shards (enemy token at 1)
T3, Forbidden Orchards (et@2) taps for 1 storage counter on Calicform.
T4, Forbidden Orchard taps for 2 storage counters on Calciform (et@3) - This deck blocks and takes minimal damage.
T5, Forbidden Orchard taps for a R and Calciform removes 2 counters, cast Curse of Nightly Hunt (et@4)
T6 - ~T9 wait and let the enemy creatures kill themselves on the Wall.
T10 -> ????? - Restart mana engine. Each turn 1 creature is put on the enemy's side. That creature kills itself.
Can this deck even win?
Pump spell may have to be changed in order to compensate for insane lifegain...
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europeβs population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
I still dont know math, but I think I've hit a potential solution.
A combination of Followed Footsteps, Energy Field and Serra's Sanctum on a cumulative upkeep creature seems like an incredibly terrible way to generate mana.
It seems like cumulative upkeep is the best way to go. Is there anything that grows at a faster rate that we can take advantage of? There are creatures that will double, but.. then we can attack... unless a mana source prevents us from attacking with them. How would we use doubling creatures if we could?
Is there anything like Research that can only bring in basic lands?
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europeβs population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
The 153,000 turn number was based on my calculation for what Fnord proved to be suboptimal play from my deck. with optimal play it can actually win in about 30,000 turns. (Just an Fyi in case someone finds a deck that wins between turns 30,000 and 153,000.)
That deck can't actually win. the 1 token with 1 power per turn from gleam and footsteps can't keep up with cumulative lifegain.
As you hinted though a change in pump spells would help.
Haze of rage should do it.
It's buyback and storm and the cumulative lifegain are both polynomial series I think. and the creatures from footsteps gives it a larger coefficient. You won't need to pay very many sustaining spirit upkeeps though so I'm not sure how slow it'd actually be.:-/
oh and I guess that would ruin the mana base, huh?:embarrass: maybe swap the sustaining spirit for a 0 power red/blue creature.
and yeah cumualtive upkeeps (polynomial series) and doubling(exponential series) are the way to go about getting any large number.
If only we could followed footsteps/ Doubling Season somehow without winning prematurely.:D
Edit: or you could replace
Sustaining Spirit
Followed Footsteps
Calciform Pools
with
Splintering Wind
Parallel Evolution
saltcrusted steppe
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Doesn't that win far faster?
You play wall, get to 9 charges in the pools, so opponent has 65 life. Then you don't pay the upkeep and cast leviathan. You then build up charges to Footsteps, 5 turns, currently turn 15. Then you wait until footsteps has made 64 more creatures. Eventually killing turn 79.
Oops, I forget you could footsteps the Leviathan.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
I was 1 mana off of having an awesome deck.
Remote Farm
Ajani's Mantra
Forbidden Orchard
Followed Footsteps
Sustaining Spirit
Upwelling (thought it was 3 cmc............)
Ramosian Rally (or Overrun or Rally the Peasants or Zealous Persecution)
So the idea was,
1. Put out Ajani's Mantra and just wait. Mantra must keep you alive.
2. Use Remote Farm and Forbidden Orchard to put out Upwelling
3. Keep tapping Forbidden Orchard to gain mana. Mantra keeps you alive because we've waited a while.
4. Build up enough mana to cast Sustaining Spirit/Followed Footsteps.
5. Sustaining Spirit must have enough to go through the ENORMOUS amount of Forbidden Orchard dudes.
6. Win somehow.
buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut I'm off by 1 mana. Kinda sad. The process might be able to be tweaked and I think that something like this has potential.
----
v2
Remote Farm
Ajani's Mantra
Forbidden Orchard
Followed Footsteps
Sustaining Spirit
Calciform Pools
Ramosian Rally (or Overrun or Rally the Peasants or Dance of Shadows or Zealous Persecution)
- still fixing.
Here you have 2 series of cumulative upkeeps, the Naked Singularity to make white mana and 20 sustaining Spirits with Followed Footsteps to win. To pay for the spirits you need 1 white mana, then 3, then 6, 10, 15, 21, 28, 36, 45, 55, 66, 78, 91, 105, 120. Total that is 680 plus 2 for Morale and 1 for playing the spirit and 2 blue for the Footsteps, so we need to keep the Naked Singularity alive for 685 turns. That costs ((1+685*3)*685)/2=704780 mana. 704780+3 for suspend of Lotus Bloom +5 for playing Naked Singularity +680 for the collorless part of the upkeep of the Spirits +3 for the collorless part of Followed Footsteps +1 for the collorless part of Morale=705472, that gives a win on turn 705472.
Whoa. That's nasty.
Lava Tubes? Oh, derp. Naked Singularity...
Golden Urn
Forbidden Orchard
Mirror of Fate
Restock
Gut Shot
Upwelling
Lotus Bloom
Forbidden Orchard -> Golden Urn
Gut Shot the token
Wait
Wait
Wait
Lotus Bloom-> Upwelling
Sac Golden Urn for Life
Play Mirror of Fate
Use Restock to re-buy Gut Shot and poke the Opponent with it (you can also re-buy Lotus Bloom, but only once)
Use Mirror of Fate to re-buy Restock
Use Restock to re-buy Mirror of Fate and Gut Shot
Poke the opponent with Gut Shut
repeat the last 3 steps
I'm not sure how slow it is, I'm guessing only a few thousand turns
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
The idea is to require a continued input of one colored mana of a different color than the deck's storage land, so that Halls / Chasm must be kept around for a number of turns, either doubling the number of turns for attacks (in addition to the upkeep of Halls) or requiring a significant amount of life gain first with Chasm (though the attacking restriction could be a problem).
I'm just throwing this idea out there in case it helps.
EDIT: I had forgotten that Unstable Frontier causes the targetted land to lose its other abilities. As a result, Halls doesn't seem viable, but Glacial Chasm actually improves - the cumulative upkeep ability will still trigger, but the attacking restriction won't exist.
EDIT 2: Alternately, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth + Halls works, if there's a cost of {B}{B}.
BWTeysa, Orzhov Scion
GWRhys the Redeemed
GUKruphix, God of Horizons
GRXenagos, God of Revels
GThrun, the Last Troll
GStompy
What about Aquitect's Will? It might work instead of Unstable Frontier. It can also be combined with Naked Singularity for more shenanigans.
-----------
I think I may be onto something.
Remote Farm
Ajani's Mantra
Forbidden Orchard
Followed Footsteps
Sustaining Spirit
Calciform Pools
Zealous Persecution
Ok, so I think this one has some potential.
- Ajani's Mantra must take a turn for each damage done.
- So we have to figure out how much mana Sustaining Spirit + Following Footsteps for 20 turns requires.
- N = Total mana cost, For every mana created a 1/1 will be created that attacks each turn.
- (1+ (total mana cost)*((total mana cost)/2) = the amount of damage taken from the 1/1's attacking in order to get to the total mana cost.
- The total damage taken (+20 more turns of it and atleast 1 damage to survive) equal about the amount of turns for this deck to win.
I think this might be high, but I need to double check my work before I submit it.
---
Further thoughts,
Remote Farm and Ajani's Mantra can be changed out for Golden Urn or Tanglebloom. (also looking at Taste of Paradise and Well of Life)
That leaves 1 card open. Muahahahahahahahahhahahahaha
---
Captain's Log:
I have developed a new deck. I think it is a winner.
Sustaining Spirit
Followed Footsteps
Zealous Persecution
Calciform Pools
Forbidden Orchard
Wall of Shards
Recumbent Bliss
The way it works,
1. Put down Calciform, then Forbidden.
2. Cast Wall of Shards (enemy token at 1)
3. Fill up Calciform just enough to cast Recumbent Bliss and cast it on an enemy token(enemy tokens around 5 or so)
- The wall can block and kill one a turn, so life shouldn't be a problem getting to Recumbent Bliss
4. Don't do anything. Wall blocks any attackers. Life starts to go up once the enemy tokens stop attacking.
5. Keep waiting, I gain 1 hp per round...
Actually, they might be gaining too much. Will need to math it up.
Crap... Haze of Rage might have to replace Zealous Persecution.
Remote Farm
Ajani's Mantra
Forbidden Orchard
Followed Footsteps
Sustaining Spirit
Calciform Pools
Zealous Persecution
- Ajani's Mantra must take a turn for each damage done.
- So we have to figure out how much mana Sustaining Spirit + Following Footsteps for 20 turns requires.
- N = Total mana cost, For every mana created a 1/1 will be created that attacks each turn.
- (1+ (total mana cost)*((total mana cost)/2) = the amount of damage taken from the 1/1's attacking in order to get to the total mana cost.
- The total damage taken (+20 more turns of it and atleast 1 damage to survive) equal about the amount of turns for this deck to win.
2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+22+24+26+28+30+32+34+36+38+40+2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+22+24+26+28+30+32+34+36+38+2+4+6+8+10+
12+14+16+18+20+22+24+26+28+30+32+34+36+2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+22+24+26+28+30+32+34)+2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+22+24+
26+28+30+32+2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+22+24+26+28+30+2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+22+24+26+28+ 2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+22+24+26+2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+22+24+2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20
+22+2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+18+2+4+6+8+10+12+14+16+2+4+6+8+10+12+
14+2+4+6+8+10+12+2+4+6+8+10+2+4+6+8+2+4+6+2+4+2=3080
- Required Mana for spirit for 20 turns.
Because 3080 mana is need, I will need to be able to eat a much higher amount of damage to get there because of the tokens attacking.
(1+ (3080)*((3080)/2)=4,743,201
This is the life required to be able to take 3080 turns of those tokens attacking.
So my guess would be that this deck takes somewhere around 4,746,281 turns to win.
I also think this can be made even worse once Golden Urn or Tanglebloom is added.
nevermind, this idea is flawed. You can just Following Footsteps the enemy token. Im kinda sad right now...
Soul Foundry may be a way out of this...
-----
Test cards for tomorrow:
Delaying Shield just like life but with a possible higher cost. Should work really well.
Soul Echo Jank. Must be good for this.
Juju Bubble this has to be good. I want to combine it with shrine of the green thing.
Forbidden Orchard
Sheltering Ancient?
Glacial Chasm
Unstable Frontier
...? Something that lets us be unblockable every few turns... It's not as good as the top deck though...
Bubbling Beebles lets us play any enchantment and donate it... and if that enchantment is Volition reins we now have a way to give our opponent any permanent...
Perhaps if we could gain life using Arctic Nishoba? We could have a Meekstone, Tolarian Academy, and UW storage land...
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europeβs population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
Plan:
1. Play Springjack Pasture and Molten Slagheap. Make goats (1 every 5 turns).
2. Play Vedalken Orrery and Pyromania. Sac Pyromania for 1 damage to opponent. Sac goats for lots of life/red mana.
3. Play Doomsday. Respond to it with Infernal Contract. Respond with Reiterate (with buyback) copying Doomsday. Return Pyromania to library.
4. Copy Infernal Contract to draw Pyromania. Play Pyromania and sac it for another damage. Repeat until opponent is dead.
During each iteration, we lose 1/2 of our life twice. We need 18 iterations total, since on the last one we can discard the Reiterate for an extra damage. So we need 4^18=68719476736 life. At one goat every 5 turns, that equals 343597383580 turns, plus an extra few to store the 6 black mana needed.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Also nice work. This is crazy.
The basic loop is as follows:
1. Pyromania is sacrificed for 1 damage.
2. Doomsday puts Pyromania on top of your library (as it's the only card there), at the cost of half your life.
3. Infernal Contract draws Pyromania, at the cost of half your life.
4. Play Pyromania and repeat.
Doomsday and Infernal Contract in the above description are actually copies created by bought-back Reiterate. The originals sit on the stack and never resolve (except during the last iteration, if you want).
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Getting from here back to
"3. Play Doomsday. Respond to it with Infernal Contract. Respond with Reiterate (with buyback) copying Doomsday. Return Pyromania to library."
So the enchantment etb, then it sac itself, where does that go on the stack? Responding to the Doomsday that responded to it entering the battlefield...? I'm kinda terrible at stack related timings.
Basically, at the beginning of the loop you stick Doomsday and Infernal Contract on the stack. You don't let them resolve (optionally, you can at the very end); the entire loop is done in response. Vedalken Orrery allows you to do everything you need at instant speed.
Since they're on the stack, you can use Reiterate to make a copy of either. Since Reiterate has buyback, you can do this as many times as you want. Esentially, Reiterate now says
Reiterate 4RR
Instant
Choose one β Put a card from your graveyard on top of your library, or draw a card.
You lose half your life, rounded up.
So you sac Pyromania, use the first mode to put in back in your library, then use the second mode to draw it. Cast it and repeat.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Let's see....
Hand: Reiterate
GY: Pyromania
Stack: Doomsday|Infernal Contract
Library: Empty
Cast Reiterate without buyback, targeting Doomsday.
Reiterate resolves. Copy Doomsday resolves.
<<half life lost>>
Hand: Empty
GY: Empty
Stack: Doomsday|Infernal Contract
Library: Pyromania, Reiterate
Infernal Contract resolves.
<<half life lost>>
Hand: Pyromania, Reiterate
GY: Infernal Contract
Stack: Doomsday
Library: Empty
At this point we can copy the Doomsday, but we have no way to draw back the Infernal Contract. And even if we did, we've already lost half our life twice this iteration. So I'm not seeing how we get any faster.
Do you have a specific sequence of actions in mind?
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)