I have to say this game was completely unbalanced.
Not only 1, but 3 roles were "mod confirmed" but weren't town. I'ld be fine with one (especially Kenji's, that was tight). I understand trying to break the concepting that protection from lynch guys are pro-town, but this exists due to in game reasons. The lynch is town's main weapon against the mafia, and by the rule an ability is better on mafia than town its better than an unnight killable townie. There's not much to say on scum masons that hasn't already been said, but I'm not a huge fan of those either. At some point the game's roles become almost irrelevant as any could be a lie and it goes back to a newbie style game.
Well, that may be over reacting, but I am against bastard modding more or less. When every mafia has a strong ability (GF cop w/ slight draw back as the hard to lynch townie is his death condition, day kill, gain an ability and fake mason, post restriction which is somehow "pro-town" and in no way is, potential recruit) plus 3 neutrals.
Or I might just be mad because I handed you 2 scum and we still lost. Any way, I'm just grah....
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Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone
To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.
Honestly, armlx, with how many cops there were slated to be in the game, I never imagined that people would have any difficulty working stuff like that out. The town got fairly unlucky in that regard, that so few of the investigative abilities actually turned up anything useful.
Secondly, I have long been an advocate of not assuming claimed masons at their word unless strongly proven otherwise. Admittedly, I never expected Jobie to give Holmes unconditional support, which made his clearedness a lot stronger that it might have been, but in designing the role, I expected there to be some initial distrust that would play into things.
As for Fayul's role, it was supposed to be completely unbalanced. The fact that both she and TWS used it to just sit there inside an impenetrable shell actually probably made the game easier on you than it might have been.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Oh yeah, you should NOT have called them masons. The definition of a mason means that both players are assured each others alignment.
notice, he didn't. He said they could communicate, not specifically that they were mason buddies. Jobie assumed that, and Holmes went along willfully (duh)
notice, he didn't. He said they could communicate, not specifically that they were mason buddies. Jobie assumed that, and Holmes went along willfully (duh)
Wrong:
"Dirk Gently, P.I. –“Masons” with “Deep Thought.” You may communicate at any time with him, via the mod. One time during the game, you may tell him that you have one of the following abilities: cop, roleblocker, or a single nightkill. Obviously, this will be a lie, however he will gain the ability. You win with the town (or if Deep Thought is alive at the end of the game)."
Ok, now that I reread the PM's, Jobie was just stupid and assumed that they were masons.
Lesson 1: If you have a mason-esque role and its not specified the other mason is town, ask the mod if it guarunteed. If it isn't, chances are they are scum (or at least worth looking out for.
Its also not Fayul's role, but Kenji's, that I oppose. Blatantly lying to players is bastard modding. In the case of cops, it is a known role-based concept of sanity, but straight up mod clearing is a different thing.
The 3 neutrals weren't so bad. The out of game player was a bad idea IMO. Its almost like a spectator commenting on a game of Magic: the person has no place in the game. The fact the role passed down made things even more f'ed up....
I also count 2 cops (one that triggers once they die) and a naive cop. When facing up against that many identity protection effects.... I dunno.
I won't argue the game wasn't well thought out role wise, just that it was inherantly over powered and very NK dependant.
Edit: I don't mean to be too harsh, I just feel there is a breaking point for games where they become too random and this game was very close if not over the edge. I'll admit Random Mafia 2 on this site run by me was a broken game given the right circumstances, but thankfully for the game none of those occured (if I could go back and change it, I would not have the 21st player, change the Kirby role to 1 night copy which it was pre-SSBM mafia on 'Scum, and potentially change the neutral (not cult or SK).)
@Armlx:
The mod guarenteeing that another player is town seems like free information that specifically should not be given out. Not knowing whether your "buddy" is actually on your side or not is part of the twist that I think should come with the mason role. If the mod doesn't explicitly say your partner is town, I would assume/hope that that means he wouldn't confirm it for you at a later time.
Did I miss something about Kenji? I thought he WAS innocent, and although it seems rather lame for a mod to clear a player in such a way, CP wasn't lying about it.
I am personally against the repetition of anything even close to an out-of-game role. People on replacement lists should not have roles, they are waiting to see if someone else will drop out. (This is similar to the unlisted player thing, because they have an influence on the game, without anyone knowing that they are there, which, IMHO, defeats the town's objective of seek and destroy all mafia.)
EDIT as well: Yeah, I think this game should have not been run in the normal lists. My feeling is that mafia is a game of logic and analyzation, not of coin flips and hoping you picked the right target with one of your thousands of abilities (I am obviously anti-role stuffing as well...)
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I think I may have missed something. Kenji was saying something about his role being unbelievable and stuff, so I assumed he ended up neutral/scum...
If I am wrong about Kenji, I'm sorry and these rant had no purpose.....
Also, asking to clarify and not getting an answer is the same thing. I asked Az in Sin City, and he said 90% sure RafK was town. I therefore was 75% sure he wasn't....
To clarify: I am pro-scum talking with townies (and the townies not knowing if they are scum), but anti-scum masons where the town player is told the other person is pro-town with them. Basically, any way the mod lies about the alignment of a player to another player, with the exception of investigation roles with unspecified sanity. Basically, no bastard modage.
Role stuffing is ok. I am actually in favor of it. However, role stuffing with swingy roles ie. cop is bad. Role stuffing with minor stuff is fine.
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Albus Dumbledore, Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone
To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.
Also, asking to clarify and not getting an answer is the same thing. I asked Az in Sin City, and he said 90% sure RafK was town. I therefore was 75% sure he wasn't....
I would rather have the mod say that it is up to the player to determine that, than give a %, because it leads to thinking of the exact nature you described, which I think is bad.
To clarify: I am pro-scum talking with townies (and the townies not knowing if they are scum), but anti-scum masons where the town player is told the other person is pro-town with them. Basically, any way the mod lies about the alignment of a player to another player, with the exception of investigation roles with unspecified sanity. Basically, no bastard modage.
Oh okay, yeah the mod should just say that they are masons, not specifically that they are both protown, because that is the equivalent of the mod either giving free information, or lying directly to the player, which I agree is not exactly fair.
Role stuffing is ok. I am actually in favor of it. However, role stuffing with swingy roles ie. cop is bad. Role stuffing with minor stuff is fine.
I would much rather see a vanilla townie or mafia than one with a daykill, nightkill, post restriction, and alternate win-condition based on whether they can get another player to do X. To me, one extreme means the game is entirely logic (or illogic ;)) and the other causes the game to depend on whether a player roleblocks X, kills Y, and "Gliff"s (some other power) himself on the same night.
EDIT: What do you mean by "minor stuff"?
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Celtic word for a computer spelling mistake. SR
Elvis – Mafia. At night, you may choose one of the following abilities to use: you may roleblock a player (the glitter on your outfit will blind them, temporarily), or you may protect one of the mafia from a nightkill (by singing "Don't Be Cruel" over and over in their vicinity).
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"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
As for Fayul's role, it was supposed to be completely unbalanced. The fact that both she and TWS used it to just sit there inside an impenetrable shell actually probably made the game easier on you than it might have been.
Basically, without some mean feats of wordplay, it would be really hard to get differeng roles...and how many of those would be useful, anyway? The only thing that I could think of concievably claiming is unblockable nightkill, but, again, I wanted to stay consistent, and look like a real role, and just happen to keep brining up the fact that I really am un night-killable until the extremely lategame. Had TWS not already claimed unlynchable, and had bluesoul not been way too fast on the trigger, I think I might have won that game, or at -least- prevented the scum from winning.
I mean, honestly, tell me how I could have broken the role.
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
Well, if simply mentioning abilities would've counted, I could easily see the broken pieces of the what used to be a mafia game. "Yeah right, if he's the cop, then I'm the vig."
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"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
Well, yeah, but, uhh, that means I get a night kill for one night. whoop-de-day. That's not really going to win me the game.
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
armlx: WoLG, D_M, Chimp, and armlx all had some kind of investigative ability, potentially.
No, I never lied about anything. Kenji actually was innocent, though he would have become neutral later in the game if he had killed more people.
I never told Jobie that Holmes was innocent, nor did I ever even use the word mason in his actual role PM. Jobie did PM me asking if he knew for sure that Holmes was innocent, and I responsed with something to the effect of, "Well, that's something you'll have to determine for yourself." If Jobie still has the PM, he can clarify.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
fayul, I think you're assuming that you can never get that ability again. It looks like from the description that as long as you claim having a nightkill every day, you get a nightkill every day.
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"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
Arthur Dent, Clueless Hitchhiker – Town. You win when all scum are dead. It takes a majority plus a number to lynch you. Also, AlphaInsidious wants you dead.
This was my favorite role in the history of humanity, and I need to study (and also go to Missouri for a week) stopped me from being here during the middle AND the end...oh well. I guess I'm still dead...unvote, vote Puzzle
This was my favorite role in the history of humanity, and I need to study (and also go to Missouri for a week) stopped me from being here during the middle AND the end...oh well. I guess I'm still dead...unvote, vote Puzzle
It amused me that Vecna thought I was a traitor to the mafia cause because my ability wasn't strong enough compared to everyone else...
Well, you did turn out to be...
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Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to know the difference, and a ****ing chainsaw.
He wasn't a traitor to anybody. He gave you that message, but that was a mafia decision, and I have the PMs to prove it. I must say, I loved being privy to the discussion of a winning mafia group, and certainly learned quite a bit.
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"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
It amused me that Vecna thought I was a traitor to the mafia cause because my ability wasn't strong enough compared to everyone else...
Close, but not quite.
You seemed different than the rest of the mafia upon our first exchange of role information. That, plus the fact that CP did say not to trust anyone, and the fact that I was expecting a mafia with a conflicting WC (see Sin City for some conflicting conditions I guess), made me think something was up with your role.
I was wrong, and that poetry thing had 'em going.
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MAENTWROG (n. Welsh)
Celtic word for a computer spelling mistake. SR
Not only 1, but 3 roles were "mod confirmed" but weren't town. I'ld be fine with one (especially Kenji's, that was tight). I understand trying to break the concepting that protection from lynch guys are pro-town, but this exists due to in game reasons. The lynch is town's main weapon against the mafia, and by the rule an ability is better on mafia than town its better than an unnight killable townie. There's not much to say on scum masons that hasn't already been said, but I'm not a huge fan of those either. At some point the game's roles become almost irrelevant as any could be a lie and it goes back to a newbie style game.
Well, that may be over reacting, but I am against bastard modding more or less. When every mafia has a strong ability (GF cop w/ slight draw back as the hard to lynch townie is his death condition, day kill, gain an ability and fake mason, post restriction which is somehow "pro-town" and in no way is, potential recruit) plus 3 neutrals.
Or I might just be mad because I handed you 2 scum and we still lost. Any way, I'm just grah....
Secondly, I have long been an advocate of not assuming claimed masons at their word unless strongly proven otherwise. Admittedly, I never expected Jobie to give Holmes unconditional support, which made his clearedness a lot stronger that it might have been, but in designing the role, I expected there to be some initial distrust that would play into things.
As for Fayul's role, it was supposed to be completely unbalanced. The fact that both she and TWS used it to just sit there inside an impenetrable shell actually probably made the game easier on you than it might have been.
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From the description, I would assume not.
Her ability grants abilities (cop, doc, vig, RB) and not alignments.
notice, he didn't. He said they could communicate, not specifically that they were mason buddies. Jobie assumed that, and Holmes went along willfully (duh)
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Wrong:
"Dirk Gently, P.I. –“Masons” with “Deep Thought.” You may communicate at any time with him, via the mod. One time during the game, you may tell him that you have one of the following abilities: cop, roleblocker, or a single nightkill. Obviously, this will be a lie, however he will gain the ability. You win with the town (or if Deep Thought is alive at the end of the game)."
Lesson 1: If you have a mason-esque role and its not specified the other mason is town, ask the mod if it guarunteed. If it isn't, chances are they are scum (or at least worth looking out for.
Its also not Fayul's role, but Kenji's, that I oppose. Blatantly lying to players is bastard modding. In the case of cops, it is a known role-based concept of sanity, but straight up mod clearing is a different thing.
The 3 neutrals weren't so bad. The out of game player was a bad idea IMO. Its almost like a spectator commenting on a game of Magic: the person has no place in the game. The fact the role passed down made things even more f'ed up....
I also count 2 cops (one that triggers once they die) and a naive cop. When facing up against that many identity protection effects.... I dunno.
I won't argue the game wasn't well thought out role wise, just that it was inherantly over powered and very NK dependant.
Edit: I don't mean to be too harsh, I just feel there is a breaking point for games where they become too random and this game was very close if not over the edge. I'll admit Random Mafia 2 on this site run by me was a broken game given the right circumstances, but thankfully for the game none of those occured (if I could go back and change it, I would not have the 21st player, change the Kirby role to 1 night copy which it was pre-SSBM mafia on 'Scum, and potentially change the neutral (not cult or SK).)
The mod guarenteeing that another player is town seems like free information that specifically should not be given out. Not knowing whether your "buddy" is actually on your side or not is part of the twist that I think should come with the mason role. If the mod doesn't explicitly say your partner is town, I would assume/hope that that means he wouldn't confirm it for you at a later time.
Did I miss something about Kenji? I thought he WAS innocent, and although it seems rather lame for a mod to clear a player in such a way, CP wasn't lying about it.
I am personally against the repetition of anything even close to an out-of-game role. People on replacement lists should not have roles, they are waiting to see if someone else will drop out. (This is similar to the unlisted player thing, because they have an influence on the game, without anyone knowing that they are there, which, IMHO, defeats the town's objective of seek and destroy all mafia.)
EDIT as well: Yeah, I think this game should have not been run in the normal lists. My feeling is that mafia is a game of logic and analyzation, not of coin flips and hoping you picked the right target with one of your thousands of abilities (I am obviously anti-role stuffing as well...)
Celtic word for a computer spelling mistake.
SR
If I am wrong about Kenji, I'm sorry and these rant had no purpose.....
Also, asking to clarify and not getting an answer is the same thing. I asked Az in Sin City, and he said 90% sure RafK was town. I therefore was 75% sure he wasn't....
To clarify: I am pro-scum talking with townies (and the townies not knowing if they are scum), but anti-scum masons where the town player is told the other person is pro-town with them. Basically, any way the mod lies about the alignment of a player to another player, with the exception of investigation roles with unspecified sanity. Basically, no bastard modage.
Role stuffing is ok. I am actually in favor of it. However, role stuffing with swingy roles ie. cop is bad. Role stuffing with minor stuff is fine.
I would rather have the mod say that it is up to the player to determine that, than give a %, because it leads to thinking of the exact nature you described, which I think is bad.
Oh okay, yeah the mod should just say that they are masons, not specifically that they are both protown, because that is the equivalent of the mod either giving free information, or lying directly to the player, which I agree is not exactly fair.
I would much rather see a vanilla townie or mafia than one with a daykill, nightkill, post restriction, and alternate win-condition based on whether they can get another player to do X. To me, one extreme means the game is entirely logic (or illogic ;)) and the other causes the game to depend on whether a player roleblocks X, kills Y, and "Gliff"s (some other power) himself on the same night.
EDIT: What do you mean by "minor stuff"?
Celtic word for a computer spelling mistake.
SR
Basically, without some mean feats of wordplay, it would be really hard to get differeng roles...and how many of those would be useful, anyway? The only thing that I could think of concievably claiming is unblockable nightkill, but, again, I wanted to stay consistent, and look like a real role, and just happen to keep brining up the fact that I really am un night-killable until the extremely lategame. Had TWS not already claimed unlynchable, and had bluesoul not been way too fast on the trigger, I think I might have won that game, or at -least- prevented the scum from winning.
I mean, honestly, tell me how I could have broken the role.
No, I never lied about anything. Kenji actually was innocent, though he would have become neutral later in the game if he had killed more people.
I never told Jobie that Holmes was innocent, nor did I ever even use the word mason in his actual role PM. Jobie did PM me asking if he knew for sure that Holmes was innocent, and I responsed with something to the effect of, "Well, that's something you'll have to determine for yourself." If Jobie still has the PM, he can clarify.
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This was my favorite role in the history of humanity, and I need to study (and also go to Missouri for a week) stopped me from being here during the middle AND the end...oh well. I guess I'm still dead...unvote, vote Puzzle
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Why were you modkilled again?
Because I was an Idiot and forgot to post in big font, real slip on my part.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
Well, you did turn out to be...
Close, but not quite.
You seemed different than the rest of the mafia upon our first exchange of role information. That, plus the fact that CP did say not to trust anyone, and the fact that I was expecting a mafia with a conflicting WC (see Sin City for some conflicting conditions I guess), made me think something was up with your role.
I was wrong, and that poetry thing had 'em going.
Celtic word for a computer spelling mistake.
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Is there any other kind on this site?