Ooookaaayyy... you do realize white/invisitext is frowned upon? I don't see how you could possibly bold everything but one letter either but that has nothing to do with anything.
I started writing the following before night was officially called, but finished after:
Call me impatient or what you will, but I thought there was some sort of consensus against Krash and that our arguing had been going in circles. While the immeadiate consequences were to kill someone who was possibly town, I wasn't %100 on my judgment on him, thus there was a chance we could have lynched scum. More importantly, we have gotten to move on, and now have a basis on which to judge peoples' past comments and accusations, especially those about Krash.
Back to the present, Lorelith's comments so far have been almost utterly without substance, have played the noob card more than once, and in the last one she said she dislikes an already known, and out of the game, scum. It all seems rather strange...
Yes, CP, I think that it's much more likely that the SK targetted the same person as the Mafia, or that either the SK or Mafia targeted an unkillable/ untargetable/Doc protected target (and equally likely that one of sk/mafia had either a kill restriction/replacement ability) than that in a 21 person game there is only 1 anti town killing group, and that our vig chose to fire on night 2, and hit a scum. Frankly the second seems perposterous, while the first is common place.
The fact that CP is supporting the vig idea so much in the face of several superior theories makes me think he may be responsible. FoS Carrion Pigeons
No, it is not more likely that an improbable coincidence happened on Night 1 than that a vig acted as he ought. My question was rhetorical. I'll acknowledge that it's very possible that it's an SK, but I refuse to believe any of your "superior" (not) theories without some actual evidence that does not point directly to it being a vig.
Quote from Axelrod »
CP jumping to the conclusion that swinkee was a vig. kill (and then "thanking" the vig--scummy, scummy, scummy) does not look good in my opinion. He really ought to know better. The number of games we've had with a SK but a missing kill is too numerous to count. Of course, if he was the SK, it all makes sense, right?
I don't recall thanking anyone. I do know better than that. I do recall making a reasonable assumption based on what we currently know. In any case, this is a moot point, considering that no one has, or would, claim credit for the kill this early in the game.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
I don't recall thanking anyone. I do know better than that. I do recall making a reasonable assumption based on what we currently know. In any case, this is a moot point, considering that no one has, or would, claim credit for the kill this early in the game.
Really?
Quote from carrion Pigeons »
It appears we have a vig with some good sense. Thank you for actually having the guts to fire.
It wasn't that long ago, you know.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Okay, I'm going to put out an opinion that I'm sure will land me in more hot water. (Gee, I seem good at that.)
I think CP is the SK. I haven't done a review of d1 one with this in mind, but here are my recollections.
He placed a third vote on someone with the express purpose of bandwagoning. He defened this tactic as information gathering/ progressing the game state. At the time I agreed that it was a common, if poor tactic. However, this definetly would benifit an SK; It kills someone (every death is good to the SK) and it brings another night. Further, the less info that is brought up, the easier it is for an SK to blend in. It would be great to know if he's like this in other games. (And I don't have the time.)
He jumped onto the Krash Wagon as it picked up steam. Again, the first lynch is best for the SK.
Then today: He suggests that the second kill may be the work of a vig. Possibly setting himself up for later. Says "Thank you for actually having the guts to fire." A pro aggressive vigging stance is good cover for a SK's forced killing.
Claims (repeatedly) that a vig is a better expalanation for the single kill n1. To me, it seems obvious that any several competing theories are more likely on their own. Taken together, I'd say that are vastly more probable than a vig firing (seemingly at random) n2 and hitting scum. That he doesn't agree here means one of three things; he and I have vastly different appraisals on the likely hood of various scenarios, he's the vig, and fired last night on swinkee, or he's commited to claiming vig, and needs last night's kill to be considered such.
So, what do others think. Is CP likely our SK, or is this typical CP behavior?
Oh, and I'll freely admit that my attack has one (at least) fairly significant flaw. If CP is the SK, he's brought alot more attention on himself than a SK would like. Of course, he could have been hoping we'd think that. But what if we knew that he thought... (And If I knew how to make the font smaller, or use subscript, this would trail off even more.)
Your third point, moreso then the others, is the one that raises the Red Flags--i.e. his conviction that swinkee was killed by a town vig. I don't read that as him actually being the vig. I would be quite surprised if he came back and claimed that. Seems like he might have been posting with the benefit of extra information, though. Such as his being SK but not killing swinkee.
But that would mean he either killed Silicon, or he missed a kill. Or the mafia missed a kill. And with one death Night 1 it would mean someone missed a kill there also. Which is certainly possible, but seems less likely.
Although I've played games with him before, I don't think I can say if he plays like this regularly. This game itself is not quite regular. The slow pace make me want to start bandwagon jumping at times too just to make something happen.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I agree that CP has a scummy feel to him. Something a bit off. Of course, that isn't nearly enough for me to vote for him.
Treigeit: Could you please provide sources for your statements? Just saying something is useful, but providing a link to the actual statement is usful, because it helps provide context that we would otherwise have to find ourselves, which can be burdensome in a large thread.
Suggesting that the kill was the work of a vig. is, in and of itself, not that supsicious. Yes, it could also have been an SK. Yes, CP's reaction is a bit off, but not to the point where it seems to require a vote.
Mind you, I'm not saying your arguement isnt' good. Just that it isn't enough yet to convince me. On my list of suspects, CP is high.
(where the h*** is everyone else, btw? feels a bit lonely here.(
Okay, rereading d1 w/ an eye on CP makes him seem a bit better than my recollection, but here posts I find relevant:
Quote from 68 »
I voted you, Gimclaw, because I wanted to get the day moving. Avoiding the thread, as you seemed to be doing, is a perfectly valid reason to vote someone, and a quick runup of votes is a great way to get someone's attention.
In any case, we obviously do need a bandwagon so early, and I'm satisfied to start one on a player who has exhibited a minor scum tell this early in the game. (Note, please, that I say minor. I don't want or need to hear the argument that townies lurk, too, because I already know it.)
Anyone have any info they're willing to give up that might progress the town's agenda? How about a Cunning Plan? If not, it's time for a bandwagon. And if people don't have a better target than Grim, then let's go!
Here's his explanation for his vote on Grim. At this point, I don't think the thread was moving slowly enough to warrant a wagon, but this may be just my perception. Ultimately similar logic for why I (re)started the Krash wagon, though more aggresive (timing wise) than I was.
Quote from 76 »
Okay, dude. You convinced me. Unvote, vote Krashbot. That post sounded very much like it was coming from the perspective of mafia. Plus the whole baiting people to vote you.
TOTALLY JUSTIFIED. I hereby drop my bandwagon switching accusations.
Quote from 117 »
<snip>
Abso: My vote on Grim was designed to start a bandwagon. I admit it freely now, as I did at the time. The fact that I was the third vote was not much of a coincidence. Take that for what it's worth.
Speaks for itself.
Quote from 196 »
Hmmm...
Can't say that that was what I expected. I didn't really have either player on my list of likely anythings.
It appears we have a vig with some good sense. Thank you for actually having the guts to fire.
I'm going to try reviewing the thread before I start making another case against anyone. It's been awhile since this game stopped.
I'm happy to drop my second point. My first point is not particualrily strong, as this may just be a perception of how soon to start an information wagon.
My third point is still valid (IMO), and I'd like to hear a response to it.
Oh, and Grim, in my understanding the SK doesn't normally have a choice about not firing.
This day's been going on for a while, everyone needs to post more!!!!
Carrion Pidgens 1 Treigit
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Treigit, could please point out which points were your first and third ones? I'm not totally clear on that.
Axel's point that I thanked the vig: My apologies. I ought to have checked what I actually said before responding. I still have bad memories of the argument I had with Az in RTK about the viability of aggressive vigging. It may just be me, but it seems clear that I was saying thanks for the aggressive vigging strategy, rather than thanking him for catching a scum. That's why I didn't register what you said about congratulating the vig.
No, I am not the vig.
Yes, it is still more likely that the vig is the correct answer. I'll argue the staistics in detail if someone cares to bother with it, but just some quick and dirty calculations on my part lead me to believe that there's a better than 50% chance that it's a vig. I'm frankly astonished that people are not seeing this; unless someone actually wants to show me some math demonstrating otherwise (or additional evidence, obv.), I'm not going to change my opinion.
If I missed any of your points, Treigit, I want to hear them.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
* sgdre whips out calculater... rref's a couple matrices... finds some eigenvectors to change the matrices to their eigenbasis...
There we go! Looks like the fake linear algebra I just did confirms that it is more likely to be an SK kill. Seriously, what kind of math could you possibly be doing that would have ANY relevance on this situation (other than making up numbers, something I dont consider math).
Even if your arguments were valid, I fail to see their relevence.
Even if your arguments were valid, I fail to see their relevence.
You know what? You're right. I shouldn't even be trying to defend myself against a point no one has adequately made. However, my point stands that until someone can show me some genuine basis for why my belief that it isn't as likely to be an SK as a vig is wrong, you've got no basis attacking me on that point. Y'all have the burden of proof on that score, not me.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Y'all have the burden of proof on that score, not me.
Even if I were to allow that all of the combined counter arguments for the missed kill were quite unlikely, you've still got a long way to go in convincing me that Swinkee's death was a vig: Aggressive vigging (as in n2, no evidence, no suspcious persons, no discussion of possible vig targets) is rather frowned upon here. Assuming it's a vig, why swinkee, he made 4 posts yesterday, and even with the knowledge that he's scum, I see no tells in any of them. When was the last full game here without atleast 2 anti-town killing groups (with the possible, partial exception of yours). Add to the fact, that I think several ways to prevent/miss a kill are common (and have randomly happened before), and we see the burden of proof shift back to you.
My first point, was your over aggression on starting a wagon d1. This was before conversation had died, and thus seems more like a penchant for wanton killing.
Also, I found this while rereading the thread, but decided to save it till after you'd claimed vig or not vig:
Quote from CP post 8 »
Eh? What's this about a 50% chance?
If you watched him, he's almost definitely worth a vote; even I don't support vigging people who haven't had a chance to speak yet,
Bolding mine
So, not subtle claim. It's possible you were hoping for overeager (and very inexperienced) day vig. And it's conviently deniable as a mistype.
The wonderful thing about my case, is that none of this can effectively be answered by CP (No, not because it's solid, but because it's objective)
1 CP can argue that he feels the aggression is the best d1 course (and he's not alone)
2 *note new numbering* No way to prove which scenario is more likely (though it seems obvious to me) and even if it is, CP can claim difference of perception
3 completely deniable as a typo (and quite likely such)
As such, I'm going to drop my case on CP now. If anyone can find non subjective points, (or even less sujective) then we can pick it up again. Unvote CP. FoS CP (even if it's not provable, I still think I'm right. And when have I ever been wrong before)
So, how about we actually look a this rather lengthy wagon from yesterday? Not that discussing CP's conviction of a vig kill doesn't have merit, its just that there isn't much more to say about it.
After doing a reread of the wagon, not too many people came off in a favourable light. The worst offenders I would have to say are ZyphonSlayer, Absolutionis, Treigit, and WoLG.
WoLG first stated that he believed Krash's claim, and then later voted because he thought Krash was the most scummy player, not long after. This does feel like a bit of a contradiction to me.
Zyphonslayer was one of the first on the wagon, and had a key role in its formation. He then unvoted shortly after Krash's claim for somewhat poor reasoning. He then ended the day by joining the wagon again after expressing that he no longer felt that Krash was scum (the 1/6 chance thing).
Treigit's questionable plays were called out day 1. Some of his later posts don't really feel like he was going for a lynch. I think it would ahve looked worse for him had Krash been mafia, but it still was a strange time and reason for getting off, and then back on, the wagon.
Absolutionis just seemed a little too sure that Krash was town through a lot his posts. I don't really know how experienced he is, but a lot of experience would make me feel that he is more likely not scum, as he was a little too direct in his statements. Basically, after Krash's posts I don't see how someone can be that sure that he was town.
Also,
Quote from Lorelith »
in all the games I've ever played,...
or townie that got killed off by the town for posting insane things.
Good to see you're trying to change that.
I believe it was more likely to be a SK than a vig because the target would have been a very poor choice for a town vig to hit, especially when aggressive vigging is a bad idea in general and a great way to cost the town games.
And I don't much agree with Treigit's attacks on Carrion Pigeons. The fact that he managed to talk himself out of them within ten posts is a pretty good sign that they are sketchy. (Not that I believe CP is out of the woods, just these aren't the relevant points.)
fos cp. First off was admitting to bandwagoning yesterday next is the the vig thing. This is just me though checking in with my thoughts.
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Just a quick question, has anyone played in a forum mafia game where someone has not said that they believe what someone says, still finds them scummy, and votes them?
Btw, I believe the whole questioning of vig|vs.|sk is rather irrelevant until someone claims the kill.
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I'll agree the Krash wagon deserves another look. Who was on it and who wasn't and why. I'll try to do my own take later by way of comparison to ikerr.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Btw, I believe the whole questioning of vig|vs.|sk is rather irrelevant until someone claims the kill.
It seems that something is up with that. I may be parniod or something but I see that as a subtle sign that unnerves me coupled with the wagoning.
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"No, I specifically heard denim. Looks like so crafty ghost is trying to break our code" -Bravo 3 "I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
Kokusho, I don't understand your last post. You think there's something up with what? WoLGs for his post or Me (and others trying to argue for SK (or vig (triple parentheticals yay)))? Can you elaborate on what makes you unneasy and why? Or do you need to do more rereading/thinking before you can be more precise?
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Like I said, with finals I simply don't have the time to do much at the moment. I can read and respond to peoples posts, but I can't do an analysis of day 1 right now. I wouldn't want the game to be dropped though, so I hope some other people will get a little more active.
If you're too buzy to post alot that's ok, but as everyone seems too buzy, it might be better if the game was dropped.
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I think it's better if we just leave it as. When finals are over this'll naturally start up again. Personally I'm not even going to bother studying for my finals until the day before, so I'm going to reread day 1 and post something.
I've been trying to keep this game alive, but no one seems willing to bite. (I probably should have kept up my attack on CP even after I realized the futility.)
Well, I apologize for my own lack of posting. I am apparently stretched too thin right now, and the nature of these games being what they are, the one with the least activity gets the least attention.
But I'll still give my analysis of the Krashwagon, such as it was.
I put the first vote on him in #69, after Krash made a late appearance into the thread and was (1) apologizing for being busy, (2) asking other people for ideas, and (3) saying the Grimclaw bandwagon seemed reasonable because he hadn't posted yet (a little pot-kettle there).
That vote was followed by Tregit in post #70, basically agreeing with me.
Grimclaw agrees in post #71, but doesn't vote.
Krash defends himself in #72.
MMoD votes in post #75 (after Krash admits he is the best target).
CP votes in #76.
sgdre gives a FOS in post #77.
Then Tregit unvotes in #78 because he isn't ready to lynch anyone yet (Krash had 4 votes at the time--I remark on that in post #82).
Kokusho checks in just to say he will be out of town and doesn't add to anything.
ZyphonSlayer votes in post #83. Basic bandwagoning/going with his gut.
NavyJoe gives a FOS in post #86.
Tregit re-votes in post #88, and now is asking Krash for a claim. He says he recognizes this doesn't look good for him, but feels the game is in danger if we don't do something drastic. Now, while I am sympathetic to this emotion, seems like it could just as easily come from a scum as a townie.
ikerr expresses suspicions in post #97.
Tuatha expresses suspicions in post #98. Neither casts a vote.
kops723 votes in post #101 asking for a claim.
Krash claims Vanilla townie in post #106.
Silicon gives a FOS for that claim in post #108.
WoLG says he believes it in post #109.
ZyphonSlayer unvotes in post #110, also indicating belief.
Tregit asks for more information in post #111.
Swinkee (known mafia) votes in post #112.
I suggest we won't learn anything from Krash saying his song name in post #116. I don't unvote. Still thinking about it.
Grimclaw agrees with me (again?) in post #118.
Fayul (where has she been?) says she doesn't see what Krash has done that's scummy in post #119.
Kokusho says he doesn't see anything on Krash in post #122.
I unvote Krash and switch to CP in post #125 because of his admission to bandwagoning.
We are deadlined in post #126.
WoLG agrees that Krash is the most scummy looking in post #127. Which appears in contrast to post #109. And Krash has not posted once in-between those 2 posts. Normally this would be highly suspect. With the deadline being imposed it's less suspicious, as people have to just vote for someone, but again, this is something scum will do as easily as town, if not more so.
ikerr supports the Krash lynch in post #129, but does it with some logical reasoning.
sgdre pokes the thread in post #130, telling everyone they need to post. And basically ignoring both the people who have votes at the moment (Krash and CP).
NavyJoe advises people not to rush things in post #134.
Tregit sticks with his vote in post #141.
Grimclaw continues to bring my name up in post #142. :/
NavyJoe uses a weird piece of reasoning to conclude Krash is probably mafia (because if he wasn't the mafia would have all piled on and had him lynched by now) and votes Krash. This is way wrong.
Fayul jumps in and correctly calls NavyJoe for poor reasoning, but goes along with the Krash vote anyway in post #147.
NavyJoe unvotes in post #152 after a few people have criticized his logic. saying he thought that's the way things went.
MMoD pushes the lynch in post #164.
sgdre votes and immediately unvotes in #165. Saying he is happy with the lynch but doesn't want to put Krash one from lynch.
Grimclaw agrees with me again in post #176, and this was a post where all I said was I don't have anything to add, but was still paying attention.
MMoD says we should just finish the day in post #177 (which is not unreasonable, imo.)
Replacement Lorelith votes Krash in post #178.
Grimclaw then votes him in post #179, just to get the day over with.
Krash claims he is a depressing song with no name in post #180.
I ask the town a question about that in post #182.
Absolutionis expresses belief in post #183.
ZyphonSlayer finishes him in post #185, while saying he doesn't really think Krash is scum, just to get the day over with.
Tregit claims he was going to unvote Krash in post #188, but got distracted by T.V. Still thinks Krash is scum though.
So, I wouldn't expect all the mafia to be on this wagon, but I certainly would expect some on them to be.
Of those voting, the ones that seem to come off the worst are WoLG, for his somewhat abrupt turn around between posts #109 and #127; tregit, for a sdimilar turn-around between #78 and #88; Fayul, for hardcore lurking, then voting while criticizing another player for voting the same person; and Grimclaw, for barning me too much, but jumping on Krash to end the day.
Of those NOT voting Krash, I don't like sgdre's poking the thread without committing himself or NavyJoe's logic for voting Krash originally.
I like ikerr at this point for good reasoning, and Absolutionis seems okay to me also. None of this looks at day 2 at all, which might or might now change some things.
I'm going to Vote: Fayul because she's the worst offender lurkingwise, and still has managed to act suspicious. She also said initially she didn't see what Krash had done that was suspicious, but later voted him for basically no reason but wagoning/deadline. Then disappeared again.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I don't know if I agree compleatly with fayul being scum but I don't feel as strongly on cp any more. FOS Zyphonslayer for voting to finish the day. That to me is really scummy as lynching is our main weapon to kill scum. Wasting it is not the best thing.
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"No, I specifically heard denim. Looks like so crafty ghost is trying to break our code" -Bravo 3 "I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
And you should probably lay off the FOS's and just vote. This game needs some action.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Well, then where to go? We have a lot of inaction, and further compounding the problem, little analysis. I admit I'm part of this problem. Attacking people is a tricky proposition, because even at best, your chances of getting a scum are not great, and then yuo both feel bad for killing your teammate and look scummy.
But if no one else is to step up to the plate, I shall attempt an attack on soemone that is a bit more comprehensive than the ones we currently have. I am intuitively irked by CP, but as a matter of logic, and -- the analysis I have done -- he is clear.
So I shall post my attack (pending any interventions by that beast called life, which has already distracted me numerous times from this game) tommorow.
Checking in... I'm here but unfortunately no analysis from me either. I really have no idea who is scum right now, but I think I need to go back and reread hopefully sometime soon.
Axel, I could be wrong, but Im pretty sure that I addressed both of those wagons in my prod. I said that I didnt see why ppl were voting for them, and asked for a case to be presented.
As for the continuation of the game, I am kind of ambivalent. Im not sure why, but I have had a hard time getting into this one.
Ouch. The replacements are just going to make it that much harder.
sgdre: it's the fact that you sit on the sidelines saying you don't see much and ask to be convinced that looks bad. That way it absolves you of any responsibility. Post #165 is more of the same.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I wasnt trying to dodge the issue, I was trying to say that they didnt seem scummy to me. Also, it seemed that people were trying to make hand waving arguments instead of presenting actual info. That is why I asked cases to be presented.
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Hmm, I wonder if this thread has picked up at all?
* carrion pigeons reads the 1 (one) post made in the past 24 hours.
Guess not.
Glad to see that Axel's now willing to share my opinion that bandwagons with little or no backing make good fodder for discussion. I feel quite vindicated. However, Axel, this seems like a bit of a change in policy, no? Should I attribute it to perversity (you trying to get the day going at any cost), or just bloodymindedness (you wanting me dead regardless of the stated reason)?
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Should I attribute it to perversity (you trying to get the day going at any cost), or just bloodymindedness (you wanting me dead regardless of the stated reason)?
Call it the first.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
vote cp.This is just an upgrade from an fos. Really the hard bandwagoning on a townie is really the clincher in my mind.
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"No, I specifically heard denim. Looks like so crafty ghost is trying to break our code" -Bravo 3 "I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
EBWODP:
A CP pbpa part 1.
I'm not really good at these but here it goes anyway.
Eh? What's this about a 50% chance?
If you watched him, he's almost definitely worth a vote; even I don't support vigging people who haven't had a chance to speak yet,
First thing to notice here is the fishing. IMO such a direct question like are you a watcher is highly suspect because it asks for spicific information. In general I think its wise to keep how information was obtained secret. Next is that this is still random voting. Although what was said by sdgre which for the record was this
Bonjour all.
VOTE WOLG ... for the 50% chance that the night kill was him (whether he is scum or vig, not sure yet).
Could be interpeted as a watcher claim its clearly still in random voting phase. Add that to the fact that wolg is famous for his vigging of three townies and it seems to me that this was just a way for cp to fish some information on the down low.
<snip>
I think we're moving along the right track, for the moment, albeit rather slowly. I'm quite happy with pressure on both Grim and sgdre. Let's see where this takes us, eh?
Unvote, vote Grimclaw
First signs of bandwagoning. He is clearly happy to jump on anyones wagon as he points at two people that he is cool wagoning. He is happy puting pressure on them but gives no reasons as of yet. In his next post he will try and explain himself when confronted. Really the one thing here is that he opens up the possibilty that he will wagon either person. That way if one wagon would dry up he could point to this post and just say he is going after guy #2. This just gives me a bad feeling. Just me though. Moving on.
I voted you, Gimclaw, because I wanted to get the day moving. Avoiding the thread, as you seemed to be doing, is a perfectly valid reason to vote someone, and a quick runup of votes is a great way to get someone's attention.
In any case, we obviously do need a bandwagon so early, and I'm satisfied to start one on a player who has exhibited a minor scum tell this early in the game. (Note, please, that I say minor. I don't want or need to hear the argument that townies lurk, too, because I already know it.)
Anyone have any info they're willing to give up that might progress the town's agenda? How about a Cunning Plan? If not, it's time for a bandwagon. And if people don't have a better target than Grim, then let's go!
Now look at this post. When confronted then he gives reasoning. He says that he is voting because grim is lurking. Lurker lynching is normaly bad and day one lurker lynching is horrid. Its better to get someone who has exibited more then just a "minor scum tell". That way you can look at the interactions (which by defintion lurker has fewer interactions) and then base your next day from there. Its really weak reasoning. Considering grim might be cop or another power role, outing him just for lurking is bad day one. When you go after someone its because you have reasons. Thats the only way to kickstart discusstion is to provide argumates that can be looked at and debated to find the real scum by providing something with real substance. Hence scum want not alot of argumate and like to wagon days quickly to provide the town with as little information as possible.
Krashbot: Everyone needs to change their style of play as they gain experience. It would be the town's fault for ignoring improved play, or for using it as an excuse to lynch someone. You would do well to deliberately try to change your style of play as often as you find a reason to. Not only will it make you a better inherent player, but it will also make it harder for people to get a read on you.
Grim: 3 votes is often not enough for a prod. I wouldn't be unhappy going to 5 or 6. I think more people need to be willing to bandwagon and take risks. Cautious play on Day 1 is only beneficial if you WANT the game to stall. We have to recognize that until we get some significant information, we are basically lynching at random. (Okay, that's an exaggeration, but not a big one.)
I want to bandwagon to force a claim if no one responds my "fishing" (not that it was fishing, but that's a separate point). I thought that point was pretty clear. Bandwagons are a vital strategy of mafia, especially on Day 1. If you have a better target than yourself, point him out. Right now, I'm totally satisfied with my vote.
Now the reason to lynch krash is to better his playing skills. I think that the same argumates for lynching lurkers applies here. Agian no real reasons for the prelude to the vote.
Okay, dude. You convinced me. Unvote, vote Krashbot. That post sounded very much like it was coming from the perspective of mafia. Plus the whole baiting people to vote you.
Here is the context:
*nods*
These things are actually incredibly helpful to me due to my inexperience.
However, right now, I really don't now what I should be looking for or anything. Then again, that's part of the learning process of mafia, now isn't it. I think my main problem is not saying things that basically incriminate me.
Honestly, based simply on the posts, I would have to say I am probably a better target. Then again, capagning for people to vote for you is probably not the way to survive
I really don't see how this post incriminates krash at all. Its really just an excuse to jump on the wagon due to grim's drying up. Not much else I can say right now *Kokusho sleepy*
Krashbot: you aren't in a position to make a vote like that count. You need to come up with a reason why we shouldn't lynch you. A claim would be a decent idea, or if you have some other info that you think will divert us, you might try that. OMGUS votes won't do you much good at the moment.
Considering that krash has a reason for his vote and cp doesn't I think krash does have a right to vote.
More on cp later. Part this weekend. Untill then discuss and I hope this was not too bad.
Top scum IMO
1.cp
2. sdgre
3. WOLG (really not sure on this)
top town
1. me (I think its required by law to say that)
2. grimclaw
3.ummm... hmmm... Krash and blue?
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"No, I specifically heard denim. Looks like so crafty ghost is trying to break our code" -Bravo 3 "I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
First of all, Krash is dead, so saying he's the third most likely town is silly.
Second of all, while you may not see it, the fact is that most of the town agreed with my analysis of Krash: he was lynched for the reasons I gave. I was not just jumping on a bandwagon there.
Third of all,
Quote from Kokusho »
Now look at this post. When confronted then he gives reasoning. He says that he is voting because grim is lurking. Lurker lynching is normaly bad and day one lurker lynching is horrid. Its better to get someone who has exibited more then just a "minor scum tell". That way you can look at the interactions (which by defintion lurker has fewer interactions) and then base your next day from there. Its really weak reasoning. Considering grim might be cop or another power role, outing him just for lurking is bad day one. When you go after someone its because you have reasons. Thats the only way to kickstart discusstion is to provide argumates that can be looked at and debated to find the real scum by providing something with real substance. Hence scum want not alot of argumate and like to wagon days quickly to provide the town with as little information as possible.
This is just wrong. My attempt to kickstart the Grimclaw bandwagon was not an attempt to speed-lynch him. I said at the time that my only purpose was to pressure him. Can you seriously look at the stalling bandwagon that was Grimclaw's and say that I had any serious hope of speedlynching? If I was trying to suppress discussion as you suggest here, I would obviously have been better off just keeping quiet: the discussion was hardly showing signs of taking off at the time.
Your other point was that lurker lynching is bad. You give poor, unsupported logic for that statement, and in any case, you make an unwarranted assumption when you say that I was trying to get him lynched. My answer to this argument is that a lurker bandwagon is not bad, and when the lurker's only post contained an acknowledged (if minor) scum tell, people should be willing to apply pressure. Otherwise, you're allowing people to get away with lurking.
A culture has developed in this game of thinking that equivalent evidence should be required for all bandwagons. This is simply not the case. For example, early in the game, bandwagons need to be started on relatively little evidence, because there are no available bandwagons with more evidence. You say, "Its better to get someone who has exibited more then just a 'minor scum tell.'" I say, you need to go back and look at all the available places to put a vote at that time and tell me where a better place would have been. My choices were Grim, sgdre, or no one. Voting no one was obviously the popular choice, but it was also obviously the incorrect one, because it would have led people to keep the game stalled. I judged that between Grim and sgdre, a vote on Grim was more likely to spark discussion and get him talking. To some extent, I accomplished that, although Grim is still pretty much a lurker because he knows he can get away with it.
To summarize: it's people like you who contribute to the slow pace (and possible eventual death) of the game. The fact that I realize that it's impossible to win a game that is dead is not incriminating evidence. The fact that I have attempted to spark discussion without prematurely ending the day is a positive sign, and the fact that you are misconstruing my intention displays, at best, a misunderstanding of how the game works, and at worst, an attempt to eliminate a player based on nothing more than pathos and poor logic. When you actually find a real scum tell in one of my posts, let me know.
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
His top two scum include myself (whom I know to be town) and CP. His arguments against CP were unconvincing at best in my opinion. Also, I havent found CP to be all the scummy (may reread soon).
His top two scum include myself (whom I know to be town) and CP. His arguments against CP were unconvincing at best in my opinion. Also, I havent found CP to be all the scummy (may reread soon).
Its post like this that put you there. Your only reason is OMGUS with a side note that I'm not good at pbpa. More to come later.
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"No, I specifically heard denim. Looks like so crafty ghost is trying to break our code" -Bravo 3 "I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
If anyone is curious I read all of Kokusho's posts. He contributes nothing for a while. Then he attacks CP for a while. Admitedly, this does make his attack on CP look a little better, b/c he is being consistant (I had forgotten his earlier attacks). I wasnt really all that suspicious of him to begin with, just trying to mix things up a little. Its curious that he jumps on my vote with threats of some sort of comprehensive argument to come.
No threats. You protested you being on my list. I simply used that post as a reason your on there. Note: I'm not sure I'm right on anything right now so let me reread.
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"No, I specifically heard denim. Looks like so crafty ghost is trying to break our code" -Bravo 3 "I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
Wow, I realized that I forgot to post in this thread I would be gone from the 1st to right now, so sorry about that, but yet, even so, I get back and there is about half a page of new content. Wow...
Anyway, can't say I'm too convinced about CP but then again I haven't looked at this thread in a while so I should probably go reread.
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And I'll take that as a compliment.
Back to the present, Lorelith's comments so far have been almost utterly without substance, have played the noob card more than once, and in the last one she said she dislikes an already known, and out of the game, scum. It all seems rather strange...
FOS Lorelith
No, it is not more likely that an improbable coincidence happened on Night 1 than that a vig acted as he ought. My question was rhetorical. I'll acknowledge that it's very possible that it's an SK, but I refuse to believe any of your "superior" (not) theories without some actual evidence that does not point directly to it being a vig.
I don't recall thanking anyone. I do know better than that. I do recall making a reasonable assumption based on what we currently know. In any case, this is a moot point, considering that no one has, or would, claim credit for the kill this early in the game.
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Posts like that dont help the town. Stop doing them unless it is a posting restriction.
Really?
It wasn't that long ago, you know.
I think CP is the SK. I haven't done a review of d1 one with this in mind, but here are my recollections.
He placed a third vote on someone with the express purpose of bandwagoning. He defened this tactic as information gathering/ progressing the game state. At the time I agreed that it was a common, if poor tactic. However, this definetly would benifit an SK; It kills someone (every death is good to the SK) and it brings another night. Further, the less info that is brought up, the easier it is for an SK to blend in. It would be great to know if he's like this in other games. (And I don't have the time.)
He jumped onto the Krash Wagon as it picked up steam. Again, the first lynch is best for the SK.
Then today:
He suggests that the second kill may be the work of a vig. Possibly setting himself up for later.
Says "Thank you for actually having the guts to fire." A pro aggressive vigging stance is good cover for a SK's forced killing.
Claims (repeatedly) that a vig is a better expalanation for the single kill n1. To me, it seems obvious that any several competing theories are more likely on their own. Taken together, I'd say that are vastly more probable than a vig firing (seemingly at random) n2 and hitting scum. That he doesn't agree here means one of three things; he and I have vastly different appraisals on the likely hood of various scenarios, he's the vig, and fired last night on swinkee, or he's commited to claiming vig, and needs last night's kill to be considered such.
So, what do others think. Is CP likely our SK, or is this typical CP behavior?
Oh, and I'll freely admit that my attack has one (at least) fairly significant flaw. If CP is the SK, he's brought alot more attention on himself than a SK would like. Of course, he could have been hoping we'd think that. But what if we knew that he thought... (And If I knew how to make the font smaller, or use subscript, this would trail off even more.)
Oh, and Vote Carrion Pigeons.
But that would mean he either killed Silicon, or he missed a kill. Or the mafia missed a kill. And with one death Night 1 it would mean someone missed a kill there also. Which is certainly possible, but seems less likely.
Although I've played games with him before, I don't think I can say if he plays like this regularly. This game itself is not quite regular. The slow pace make me want to start bandwagon jumping at times too just to make something happen.
I agree that CP has a scummy feel to him. Something a bit off. Of course, that isn't nearly enough for me to vote for him.
Treigeit: Could you please provide sources for your statements? Just saying something is useful, but providing a link to the actual statement is usful, because it helps provide context that we would otherwise have to find ourselves, which can be burdensome in a large thread.
Suggesting that the kill was the work of a vig. is, in and of itself, not that supsicious. Yes, it could also have been an SK. Yes, CP's reaction is a bit off, but not to the point where it seems to require a vote.
Mind you, I'm not saying your arguement isnt' good. Just that it isn't enough yet to convince me. On my list of suspects, CP is high.
(where the h*** is everyone else, btw? feels a bit lonely here.(
Here's his explanation for his vote on Grim. At this point, I don't think the thread was moving slowly enough to warrant a wagon, but this may be just my perception. Ultimately similar logic for why I (re)started the Krash wagon, though more aggresive (timing wise) than I was.
TOTALLY JUSTIFIED. I hereby drop my bandwagon switching accusations.
Speaks for itself.
I'm happy to drop my second point. My first point is not particualrily strong, as this may just be a perception of how soon to start an information wagon.
My third point is still valid (IMO), and I'd like to hear a response to it.
Oh, and Grim, in my understanding the SK doesn't normally have a choice about not firing.
Carrion Pidgens 1 Treigit
Axel's point that I thanked the vig: My apologies. I ought to have checked what I actually said before responding. I still have bad memories of the argument I had with Az in RTK about the viability of aggressive vigging. It may just be me, but it seems clear that I was saying thanks for the aggressive vigging strategy, rather than thanking him for catching a scum. That's why I didn't register what you said about congratulating the vig.
No, I am not the vig.
Yes, it is still more likely that the vig is the correct answer. I'll argue the staistics in detail if someone cares to bother with it, but just some quick and dirty calculations on my part lead me to believe that there's a better than 50% chance that it's a vig. I'm frankly astonished that people are not seeing this; unless someone actually wants to show me some math demonstrating otherwise (or additional evidence, obv.), I'm not going to change my opinion.
If I missed any of your points, Treigit, I want to hear them.
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There we go! Looks like the fake linear algebra I just did confirms that it is more likely to be an SK kill. Seriously, what kind of math could you possibly be doing that would have ANY relevance on this situation (other than making up numbers, something I dont consider math).
Even if your arguments were valid, I fail to see their relevence.
ppl need to post more...a LOT more.
You know what? You're right. I shouldn't even be trying to defend myself against a point no one has adequately made. However, my point stands that until someone can show me some genuine basis for why my belief that it isn't as likely to be an SK as a vig is wrong, you've got no basis attacking me on that point. Y'all have the burden of proof on that score, not me.
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My first point, was your over aggression on starting a wagon d1. This was before conversation had died, and thus seems more like a penchant for wanton killing.
Also, I found this while rereading the thread, but decided to save it till after you'd claimed vig or not vig: Bolding mine
So, not subtle claim. It's possible you were hoping for overeager (and very inexperienced) day vig. And it's conviently deniable as a mistype.
The wonderful thing about my case, is that none of this can effectively be answered by CP (No, not because it's solid, but because it's objective)
1 CP can argue that he feels the aggression is the best d1 course (and he's not alone)
2 *note new numbering* No way to prove which scenario is more likely (though it seems obvious to me) and even if it is, CP can claim difference of perception
3 completely deniable as a typo (and quite likely such)
As such, I'm going to drop my case on CP now. If anyone can find non subjective points, (or even less sujective) then we can pick it up again.
Unvote CP. FoS CP (even if it's not provable, I still think I'm right. And when have I ever been wrong before)
So, what other info do we have?
After doing a reread of the wagon, not too many people came off in a favourable light. The worst offenders I would have to say are ZyphonSlayer, Absolutionis, Treigit, and WoLG.
WoLG first stated that he believed Krash's claim, and then later voted because he thought Krash was the most scummy player, not long after. This does feel like a bit of a contradiction to me.
Zyphonslayer was one of the first on the wagon, and had a key role in its formation. He then unvoted shortly after Krash's claim for somewhat poor reasoning. He then ended the day by joining the wagon again after expressing that he no longer felt that Krash was scum (the 1/6 chance thing).
Treigit's questionable plays were called out day 1. Some of his later posts don't really feel like he was going for a lynch. I think it would ahve looked worse for him had Krash been mafia, but it still was a strange time and reason for getting off, and then back on, the wagon.
Absolutionis just seemed a little too sure that Krash was town through a lot his posts. I don't really know how experienced he is, but a lot of experience would make me feel that he is more likely not scum, as he was a little too direct in his statements. Basically, after Krash's posts I don't see how someone can be that sure that he was town.
Also,
Good to see you're trying to change that.
I believe it was more likely to be a SK than a vig because the target would have been a very poor choice for a town vig to hit, especially when aggressive vigging is a bad idea in general and a great way to cost the town games.
And I don't much agree with Treigit's attacks on Carrion Pigeons. The fact that he managed to talk himself out of them within ten posts is a pretty good sign that they are sketchy. (Not that I believe CP is out of the woods, just these aren't the relevant points.)
"I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
Btw, I believe the whole questioning of vig|vs.|sk is rather irrelevant until someone claims the kill.
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It seems that something is up with that. I may be parniod or something but I see that as a subtle sign that unnerves me coupled with the wagoning.
"I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
I'll wait until tuesday as many people don't post on weekends.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
If you're too buzy to post alot that's ok, but as everyone seems too buzy, it might be better if the game was dropped.
But I'll still give my analysis of the Krashwagon, such as it was.
I put the first vote on him in #69, after Krash made a late appearance into the thread and was (1) apologizing for being busy, (2) asking other people for ideas, and (3) saying the Grimclaw bandwagon seemed reasonable because he hadn't posted yet (a little pot-kettle there).
That vote was followed by Tregit in post #70, basically agreeing with me.
Grimclaw agrees in post #71, but doesn't vote.
Krash defends himself in #72.
MMoD votes in post #75 (after Krash admits he is the best target).
CP votes in #76.
sgdre gives a FOS in post #77.
Then Tregit unvotes in #78 because he isn't ready to lynch anyone yet (Krash had 4 votes at the time--I remark on that in post #82).
Kokusho checks in just to say he will be out of town and doesn't add to anything.
ZyphonSlayer votes in post #83. Basic bandwagoning/going with his gut.
NavyJoe gives a FOS in post #86.
Tregit re-votes in post #88, and now is asking Krash for a claim. He says he recognizes this doesn't look good for him, but feels the game is in danger if we don't do something drastic. Now, while I am sympathetic to this emotion, seems like it could just as easily come from a scum as a townie.
ikerr expresses suspicions in post #97.
Tuatha expresses suspicions in post #98. Neither casts a vote.
kops723 votes in post #101 asking for a claim.
Krash claims Vanilla townie in post #106.
Silicon gives a FOS for that claim in post #108.
WoLG says he believes it in post #109.
ZyphonSlayer unvotes in post #110, also indicating belief.
Tregit asks for more information in post #111.
Swinkee (known mafia) votes in post #112.
I suggest we won't learn anything from Krash saying his song name in post #116. I don't unvote. Still thinking about it.
Grimclaw agrees with me (again?) in post #118.
Fayul (where has she been?) says she doesn't see what Krash has done that's scummy in post #119.
Kokusho says he doesn't see anything on Krash in post #122.
I unvote Krash and switch to CP in post #125 because of his admission to bandwagoning.
We are deadlined in post #126.
WoLG agrees that Krash is the most scummy looking in post #127. Which appears in contrast to post #109. And Krash has not posted once in-between those 2 posts. Normally this would be highly suspect. With the deadline being imposed it's less suspicious, as people have to just vote for someone, but again, this is something scum will do as easily as town, if not more so.
ikerr supports the Krash lynch in post #129, but does it with some logical reasoning.
sgdre pokes the thread in post #130, telling everyone they need to post. And basically ignoring both the people who have votes at the moment (Krash and CP).
NavyJoe advises people not to rush things in post #134.
Tregit sticks with his vote in post #141.
Grimclaw continues to bring my name up in post #142. :/
NavyJoe uses a weird piece of reasoning to conclude Krash is probably mafia (because if he wasn't the mafia would have all piled on and had him lynched by now) and votes Krash. This is way wrong.
Fayul jumps in and correctly calls NavyJoe for poor reasoning, but goes along with the Krash vote anyway in post #147.
NavyJoe unvotes in post #152 after a few people have criticized his logic. saying he thought that's the way things went.
MMoD pushes the lynch in post #164.
sgdre votes and immediately unvotes in #165. Saying he is happy with the lynch but doesn't want to put Krash one from lynch.
Grimclaw agrees with me again in post #176, and this was a post where all I said was I don't have anything to add, but was still paying attention.
MMoD says we should just finish the day in post #177 (which is not unreasonable, imo.)
Replacement Lorelith votes Krash in post #178.
Grimclaw then votes him in post #179, just to get the day over with.
Krash claims he is a depressing song with no name in post #180.
I ask the town a question about that in post #182.
Absolutionis expresses belief in post #183.
ZyphonSlayer finishes him in post #185, while saying he doesn't really think Krash is scum, just to get the day over with.
Tregit claims he was going to unvote Krash in post #188, but got distracted by T.V. Still thinks Krash is scum though.
Final Vote Count:
So, I wouldn't expect all the mafia to be on this wagon, but I certainly would expect some on them to be.
Of those voting, the ones that seem to come off the worst are WoLG, for his somewhat abrupt turn around between posts #109 and #127; tregit, for a sdimilar turn-around between #78 and #88; Fayul, for hardcore lurking, then voting while criticizing another player for voting the same person; and Grimclaw, for barning me too much, but jumping on Krash to end the day.
Of those NOT voting Krash, I don't like sgdre's poking the thread without committing himself or NavyJoe's logic for voting Krash originally.
I like ikerr at this point for good reasoning, and Absolutionis seems okay to me also. None of this looks at day 2 at all, which might or might now change some things.
I'm going to Vote: Fayul because she's the worst offender lurkingwise, and still has managed to act suspicious. She also said initially she didn't see what Krash had done that was suspicious, but later voted him for basically no reason but wagoning/deadline. Then disappeared again.
"I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
And you should probably lay off the FOS's and just vote. This game needs some action.
But if no one else is to step up to the plate, I shall attempt an attack on soemone that is a bit more comprehensive than the ones we currently have. I am intuitively irked by CP, but as a matter of logic, and -- the analysis I have done -- he is clear.
So I shall post my attack (pending any interventions by that beast called life, which has already distracted me numerous times from this game) tommorow.
As for the continuation of the game, I am kind of ambivalent. Im not sure why, but I have had a hard time getting into this one.
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Awards:
Elegant Mafia: The Joker, Mafia MVP
sgdre: it's the fact that you sit on the sidelines saying you don't see much and ask to be convinced that looks bad. That way it absolves you of any responsibility. Post #165 is more of the same.
Unvote;
Vote: Carrion Pigeons
Anyone?
Hmm, I wonder if this thread has picked up at all?
* carrion pigeons reads the 1 (one) post made in the past 24 hours.
Guess not.
Glad to see that Axel's now willing to share my opinion that bandwagons with little or no backing make good fodder for discussion. I feel quite vindicated. However, Axel, this seems like a bit of a change in policy, no? Should I attribute it to perversity (you trying to get the day going at any cost), or just bloodymindedness (you wanting me dead regardless of the stated reason)?
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Call it the first.
"I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
A CP pbpa part 1.
I'm not really good at these but here it goes anyway.
First thing to notice here is the fishing. IMO such a direct question like are you a watcher is highly suspect because it asks for spicific information. In general I think its wise to keep how information was obtained secret. Next is that this is still random voting. Although what was said by sdgre which for the record was this
Could be interpeted as a watcher claim its clearly still in random voting phase. Add that to the fact that wolg is famous for his vigging of three townies and it seems to me that this was just a way for cp to fish some information on the down low.
First signs of bandwagoning. He is clearly happy to jump on anyones wagon as he points at two people that he is cool wagoning. He is happy puting pressure on them but gives no reasons as of yet. In his next post he will try and explain himself when confronted. Really the one thing here is that he opens up the possibilty that he will wagon either person. That way if one wagon would dry up he could point to this post and just say he is going after guy #2. This just gives me a bad feeling. Just me though. Moving on.
Now look at this post. When confronted then he gives reasoning. He says that he is voting because grim is lurking. Lurker lynching is normaly bad and day one lurker lynching is horrid. Its better to get someone who has exibited more then just a "minor scum tell". That way you can look at the interactions (which by defintion lurker has fewer interactions) and then base your next day from there. Its really weak reasoning. Considering grim might be cop or another power role, outing him just for lurking is bad day one. When you go after someone its because you have reasons. Thats the only way to kickstart discusstion is to provide argumates that can be looked at and debated to find the real scum by providing something with real substance. Hence scum want not alot of argumate and like to wagon days quickly to provide the town with as little information as possible.
Now the reason to lynch krash is to better his playing skills. I think that the same argumates for lynching lurkers applies here. Agian no real reasons for the prelude to the vote.
Here is the context:
I really don't see how this post incriminates krash at all. Its really just an excuse to jump on the wagon due to grim's drying up. Not much else I can say right now *Kokusho sleepy*
Considering that krash has a reason for his vote and cp doesn't I think krash does have a right to vote.
More on cp later. Part this weekend. Untill then discuss and I hope this was not too bad.
Top scum IMO
1.cp
2. sdgre
3. WOLG (really not sure on this)
top town
1. me (I think its required by law to say that)
2. grimclaw
3.ummm... hmmm... Krash and blue?
"I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
Second of all, while you may not see it, the fact is that most of the town agreed with my analysis of Krash: he was lynched for the reasons I gave. I was not just jumping on a bandwagon there.
Third of all,
This is just wrong. My attempt to kickstart the Grimclaw bandwagon was not an attempt to speed-lynch him. I said at the time that my only purpose was to pressure him. Can you seriously look at the stalling bandwagon that was Grimclaw's and say that I had any serious hope of speedlynching? If I was trying to suppress discussion as you suggest here, I would obviously have been better off just keeping quiet: the discussion was hardly showing signs of taking off at the time.
Your other point was that lurker lynching is bad. You give poor, unsupported logic for that statement, and in any case, you make an unwarranted assumption when you say that I was trying to get him lynched. My answer to this argument is that a lurker bandwagon is not bad, and when the lurker's only post contained an acknowledged (if minor) scum tell, people should be willing to apply pressure. Otherwise, you're allowing people to get away with lurking.
A culture has developed in this game of thinking that equivalent evidence should be required for all bandwagons. This is simply not the case. For example, early in the game, bandwagons need to be started on relatively little evidence, because there are no available bandwagons with more evidence. You say, "Its better to get someone who has exibited more then just a 'minor scum tell.'" I say, you need to go back and look at all the available places to put a vote at that time and tell me where a better place would have been. My choices were Grim, sgdre, or no one. Voting no one was obviously the popular choice, but it was also obviously the incorrect one, because it would have led people to keep the game stalled. I judged that between Grim and sgdre, a vote on Grim was more likely to spark discussion and get him talking. To some extent, I accomplished that, although Grim is still pretty much a lurker because he knows he can get away with it.
To summarize: it's people like you who contribute to the slow pace (and possible eventual death) of the game. The fact that I realize that it's impossible to win a game that is dead is not incriminating evidence. The fact that I have attempted to spark discussion without prematurely ending the day is a positive sign, and the fact that you are misconstruing my intention displays, at best, a misunderstanding of how the game works, and at worst, an attempt to eliminate a player based on nothing more than pathos and poor logic. When you actually find a real scum tell in one of my posts, let me know.
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His top two scum include myself (whom I know to be town) and CP. His arguments against CP were unconvincing at best in my opinion. Also, I havent found CP to be all the scummy (may reread soon).
Its post like this that put you there. Your only reason is OMGUS with a side note that I'm not good at pbpa. More to come later.
"I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
* sgdre waits for said argument avec impatiance.
"I know nothing of the law, only vengence" -Dom, U/G madness
Anyway, can't say I'm too convinced about CP but then again I haven't looked at this thread in a while so I should probably go reread.