Okay. I may have been a bit too aggressive in my wording there.
What I meant was that the three questions you reiterated in post 204 seem like they were more intended to make N_A dig himself in deeper than actually gain information. The only use for an answer the second one (of the three repeated in 204) seems to be to help him analyze the flaws in the way he responded to Loran, which I don't see as useful information.
The first one also seems to be questioning his method of playing rather than trying to gain any useful information. How does questioning his means of self-expression help determine whether he is town or scum?
If the answer to the third question was yes wouldn't his vote on Loran have been a real vote not an OMGUS vote?
Although I don't exactly enjoy being called a noob, I am gald that most of you seem to be willing to give me another chance.
Now, perhaps its because I just almost got lynch for similar reasons, but I am not particularly suspicious of LFR.
LFR seems to be, well, overreacting with an OMGUS vote. After I just did that, I guess, I am more likely to look at him as just another defensive noob.(although I would think that he would learned not to do that, if only from what I just did)
Now about Creampuffeater.
In his most recent post, he is clearly hoping for me to get lyched today, since other than me, he has been one of the two most suspicious people, and if I were not to get lyched, I doubt he would want the 50/50 odds of him being lynched.
Although my first thought would be that this is a scum tell, I unfortunatelly haven't had enough experience to definativelly know. I would more than happy if one someone with a bit more experience could give their thoughts on this.
I agree with this very much, and I think he probably is the lynch for today. I find overreactions to be a huge tell, and that N_A deffinatly overreacted. As for LFR, he seems to be acting a lot better now, asking a lot of questions that need to be answered. I still think he is a little suspicous though.
So in conclusion, thank you for your second chance, LFR seems more like a noob than mafia, and if I had to choose one person to be mafia, it would still be Creampuffeater.
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
The "Im getting bad at hitting every page” vote count.
Chimp 1 (lfr)
Lfr 2 (Cubus sgdre)
Nom Anor 4 (loran ImHungry Dagger Ljustus)
ImHungry 2 (chimp Storm)
@loran (below) Alpha said in thread he would be busy this weekend. Also in the future, point out my mistakes (preferably over aim) before I have to go back and fix like 6 vote counts.
ok, back from my holiday excursion and now have 4+ pages of new info to go over. *Yays and does the Animal dance*
After reading everything that's been written since I left, there's still a lot of suspicions floating around and with a weekend of mafia deprevation I'm not sure if my previous suspicions are still relevant, accurate or coherent.
And at this point after driving 4.5 hours I'm in no mental condition to try to reconstruct any sort of argument at the list of my suspects.
So I'm going to do some relaxing, get a good night's sleep and then tomorrow I will do a good deal of analysis and post my thoughts.
I hope everyone can be patient with me just a bit longer. Thank you in advance for doing so.
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The "Im getting bad at hitting every page” vote count.
Chimp 2 (Alpha Nom_Anor)
Lfr 2 (Cubus sgdre)
Nom Anor 4 (loran ImHungry Dagger Ljustus)
ImHungry 2 (chimp Storm)
Nom and Alpha are not voting chimp as far as i know, but alpha has lurked a ton. A Prod Please?
also, looking voted chimp i think.
I have to pack for skool, more from me later.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
What I meant was that the three questions you reiterated in post 204 seem like they were more intended to make N_A dig himself in deeper than actually gain information. The only use for an answer the second one (of the three repeated in 204) seems to be to help him analyze the flaws in the way he responded to Loran, which I don't see as useful information.
He certainly should have had a reason for reacting that way instead of just saying that it was rediculous. If it was a mistake, he could have answered that it was to the question. All though he did say it was a poor communication in his part in post 198, he could have been more direct.
The first one also seems to be questioning his method of playing rather than trying to gain any useful information. How does questioning his means of self-expression help determine whether he is town or scum?
Erm... the first one asks him why he didn't unvote. If he wasn't seriously suggesting the lynch of loran16, why didn't he unvote his OMGUS (taking into account that he did unvote after I had originally asked that).
If the answer to the third question was yes wouldn't his vote on Loran have been a real vote not an OMGUS vote?
I think you are referrencing different questions...
The fourth question:
Again, this was prior to Nom_Anor taking his vote off. I had thought that if it was just an OMGUS, Nom_Anor certainly would have unvoted.
Again, I'll clarify that I'm numbering these based on the three you repeated in 204. The first and last questions from 200 I have no problem with, just the three repeated in 204.
EBWODP: N_A, sorry for using the term "noob" but it is shorter to write than "relatively inexperienced player" and you are still technically eligible for the noob games on this site.
Then I have to answer my motives behind this question:
Why do you think your defense to loran ended with a wagon on you?
I wanted to see if he thought his wagon/people on his wagon was scummy and what he thought of it. It may have been phrased in a way to make it seem like I was asking him about his exchange with loran, but I meant for him talk of the wagon itself.
I find myself in general agreement with Chimp here. While I do not like the OMGUS, I find NA's behavior more consistent with a newbie than with newbie scum. And if he is newbie scum I feel we will have more opportunities to see this before the game is over. So while I understand why we might go for him as a D1 lynch I think we have better options.
Namely, CPE. LookingForReality has been better recently and I see his responses as townie. He has also been active and while I disagree with him he has used decent attacks on NA. And, after all, he only followed CPE's bad logic earlier, not proposed it.
Quote from CPE »
I agree with this very much, and I think he probably is the lynch for today. I find overreactions to be a huge tell, and that N_A deffinatly overreacted.
So you are only upset with NA's over reaction and not loran's original points? Frankly, I do not think that is enough to warrant a vote.
Quote from CPE »
As for LFR, he seems to be acting a lot better now, asking a lot of questions that need to be answered. I still think he is a little suspicous though.
Suspicious of what exactly? Following your bad logic?
I am going to go ahead and Vote: CPE for his most recent post and for earlier reasons.
[insert excuse about time during thanksgiving break here]
Im going to start out with an unvote.
After hearing some of Chimp's arguments, and doing some rereading, I definately agree that N_A doesnt look so bad. Also, Chimp looks a lot better in my book (I was getting weird vibes earlier) for helping bail someone out when they could have been a lynch. Even if N_A turns out to be scum, it still is iffy for a scum Chimp to try to help him out of that.
CPE is definately looking iffy right now. I want to hear his response to what ppl are saying.
Also, Chamber can you please use the names ppl have at the site in your votecounts (ie CPE).
I understand, but its not the one that he is playing with in this game. If I, who read blind 2, was confused for a while, I am sure that it is confusing for other players.
I understand, but its not the one that he is playing with in this game. If I, who read blind 2, was confused for a while, I am sure that it is confusing for other players.
I wasn't confused either but will say that I would also prefer that players were referred to by their names.
Sorry guys, ill need to write my analysis sometime tomorrow, probably after classes.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I wanted to see if he thought his wagon/people on his wagon was scummy and what he thought of it. It may have been phrased in a way to make it seem like I was asking him about his exchange with loran, but I meant for him talk of the wagon itself.
If that was your intent, the question does make more sense. I'm still suspicious of you for post 111, but I find your justification of the post in question seems reasonable.
Some pressure here nice. Like others said, sketchy logic plus that last post of his makes him scummiest right now to me. N_A right now seems fine to me. Not sure about LFR.
Okay, I just read the entire thing and I feel that now things are getting interesting. I can already see the finale of day 1 getting nearer and nearer.
Chimp, your defense of Nom Anor has some merits and I can see where you are getting at. But I would like to listen to what the others have to say first. Vampyr, Alpha, Swinkee... did I miss anyone else?
Even then, I do wish sometimes contributions are not limited to merely a few lines of agreeing or disagreeing with what the others have said. That makes their presence so low beneath the radar...
After hearing some of Chimp's arguments, and doing some rereading, I definately agree that N_A doesnt look so bad. Also, Chimp looks a lot better in my book (I was getting weird vibes earlier) for helping bail someone out when they could have been a lynch. Even if N_A turns out to be scum, it still is iffy for a scum Chimp to try to help him out of that
Thing of note: If NA is scum, Chimp might have defended him......(Lets not go too far into this however, just pointing out the argument is WIFOMish).
That said i'm going to act upon previous experience with me. I've came up with these arguments before against two people, then withdrawn them as these people were obviously newbs (Tuatha and Cyan respectively), and yet i was right for the right reason (they were scum). I'm not going to take my vote off NA just for that reason.
I've been keeping track of voting patterns of everyone so far. I thought id share so everyone could have the info..certain patterns are interesting.
Swinkee Ljustus MMoD
Looking Stormblind Nan Chimp
CPE Loran Nom Anor Nan Nom
Ljustus Sorryguy MMoD Looking Nom
Chimp MMoD CPE Looking
Vampyr Stormblind
Loran Swinkee Looking Nom
Alpha Chimp
Nan MMoD
Dagger Chimp Nom Anor
Nom Anor Loran Loran
Sgdre Loran Chimp Ljustus Looking
Stormblind Vampyr Stormblind CPE
Cubus Dagger Looking
Sorryguy MMoD CPE
MMoD CPE
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Isn't a little early for vote analysis Loran? All you've really done is tip the scum off that you're keeping an eye on it. Now, they'll be mindful of it and act accordingly.
Isn't a little early for vote analysis Loran? All you've really done is tip the scum off that you're keeping an eye on it. Now, they'll be mindful of it and act accordingly.
Well ive been keeping it recorded myself till now as the votes occur (easier to do than doing it all later) but somehow im doubting the scum will be able to play too much around it.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
EBWODP We have 3.5 days left till the deadline. I figure at noon (est?) on wed we need to decided on a wagon to ensure that we dont fail to lynch someone
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I wanted to react on this yesterday, but I thought I'd wait some more. Now Chimpz already said that this is rediculously scummy. Once someone else is getting attention, you're asking N_A questions that can't really be answered in a normal way, trying to trap him.
Not true.
Which comes down exactly to the first question you asked: "Why didn't you unvote?". I had no problems with that question, but this question is silly indeed.
Uh huh. Why?
Everything that's posted in a Mafia game, are people's thoughts and people's questions. That doesn't mean they can't be scummy.
So why does that make my questions especially scummy?
Actually, all the questions you asked came down to the same: Why didn't you unvote. I think he already responded to that question, and still, you re-ask those questions.
Not true. If you actually would quote thoes questions... These are very poor reasons to suspect anyone. I think your notion that they were designed to "trap" someone is absurd. You don't actually explain yourself and give quotations to help suport this; instead you just scream "scummy!" "scummy!" even after I explained myself. I can respond to you once you actually give me something to respond to. Otherwise, it only makes your suspicion meritless.
[insert excuse about time during thanksgiving break here]
Im going to start out with an unvote.
After hearing some of Chimp's arguments, and doing some rereading, I definately agree that N_A doesnt look so bad. Also, Chimp looks a lot better in my book (I was getting weird vibes earlier) for helping bail someone out when they could have been a lynch. Even if N_A turns out to be scum, it still is iffy for a scum Chimp to try to help him out of that.
CPE is definately looking iffy right now. I want to hear his response to what ppl are saying.
Also, Chamber can you please use the names ppl have at the site in your votecounts (ie CPE).
As of now I would be happy with a LFR lynch
If you are happy with a lynch, why don't you vote? And why won't you mention me in your posts. You didn't mention me in the post that you voted me either. It's not that long a name.
If you are happy with a lynch, why don't you vote? And why won't you mention me in your posts. You didn't mention me in the post that you voted me either. It's not that long a name.
For once he has a good point. You unvoted Lfr rather randomly, for someone who's all for an LFR lynch sgdre.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Well, I unvoted b/c I hadnt really been following the game as closely as I felt I should have. I wanted to take a step back and think about it. The other post you quoted was a response to Loran.
As for not mentioning you, didnt I vote you right after that post which quoted you contradicting yourself? I thought it was obvious why I was voting you. If you really want me to vote you, and you ask nicely, I will.
PS: Usually people say "EBWODP" to indicate "Edit By Way Of Double Post," Im not sure what EBTWOP is (edit by the way of posting?).
EBOWDP :So anyways, I went back and skimmed through the thread so that I could remember what exactly was going on with those votes. Here is the deal:
While I was making a post someone caught the contradiction that LfR made (maybe vampyr or dagger?). This is still pretty early in the game in my view, and it seemed reasonably scummy, so I through out a vote for some pressure.
Then the whole N_A thing came up, and N_A was looking scummy to me. I FOSed him instead of voting b/c I wasnt sure exactly where the count was (Im pretty sure it was high) and didnt want to put him at something like -1. Note that I am still voting LfR b/c I havent changed my vote.
Through Chimps defense and some other interactions during the period that follow I decide that N_A is not that scummy.
Chamber made a vote count and I realized that I was voting, but was not exactly sure why/it had been a while since my vote --> unvote (remember that this was over break and I wasnt following as closely as I like to).
Loran mentions the upcoming deadline, and how we should pick a target, and I list my top two suspects in order of suspicion.
I figure since we're nearing deadline, i'd give the lynchees i'd have no opposition to:
CPE and Looking Nom Anor.
These are the 3 people i think are scum at the moment (but i don't think that CPE/Looking are in the same mafia group as Nom).
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
In a previous post I had said that sgdre and Chimp were to two people I had the most suspicions about.
In regards to sgdre, I feel that the second paragraph in post 128 satisfies me as to why I said I felt he was defending MMoD too zealously.
As for Chimp, I originally was suspicious of his post suggesting everyone should being willing to unvote more easily than normal. Even though I continue to somewhat suspect this theory, it's definately to a lesser degree than what I first felt. I'm starting to see the usefulness of not locking onto one person.
Chimp's defending of N_A I do find a bit unusual, though. The chance that he might be blindly defending a scum is fairly high. Or he might be defending a member of his scum party. I mean, no one asked for a PBPA on N_A. He was left to defend himself. Then, suddenly, out of the blue here comes Chimp to throw out the newb card in the PBPA post(203), post 206 and again in post 209. It just seems a little to easy and convenient to me.
But I feel there's one other person that has been post some other suspicious things, moreso than Chimp. That would be loran.
Any posts before Post 62 I'm not putting much weight on as it was the random voting segment and Chamber hadn't announced the deadline which is when everyone seemed to take things more seriously.
post 79-he denounces lurking. No problem there
post 114-asks for extention. Again, no problem
post 116-
Quote from loran16 »
...following such logic blindly is completely disturbing
LFR did include his reasons in the post. Granted the reasons weren't the most sound, but is it so abnormal for less then sound logic to be presented with a vote? I'm sure it's happened before and I'm sure it'll happen again. Not everyone is able to present sound arguments all the time.
post 118-loran states that LFR votes "right after" nan. So the 6.5 hours of real time is considered ‘right after’? Since when did voting the same as the previous person to vote become such a indicator of scumminess?
Also calling someone’s reason BS is a bit overboard. A person's reasoning is their opinion. That can't be wrong. Maybe the path of logic to arrive at that reasoning is faulty, but to attack his opinion, that smacks of inquisition-like zeal, IMO.
post 120-
Quote from loran16 »
Perhaps he didnt want to take off his vote cuz MMOD hadn't posted yet!
Who knows why nan didn't remove his post. Maybe he forgot. But in trying to poke holes in someone else's defense by speculating what someone was thinking is shoddy presentation of so-called facts, IMO.
post 121-
Quote from loran16 »
...when a game is pretty stalled out cuz no one is DOING ANYTHING, and a person doesn't even post, a lurker wagon is rather common, and is NOT SCUMMY AT ALL!
Oh, so there is never a chance that a wagon intented to put pressure on someone is never scum-induced? Who's to say that such a thing isn't started by scum in an attempt to somehow lynch the lurker as lurking has such a horrible stigma attached to it, as you previous stated in post 79.
Also note he says he would have been on the wagon if he'd been active, even though it wasn't a wagon to lynch just to pressure.
post 138-You unvote LFR as vote #4 stating "This lfr wagon is going too fast and i need to analyze." LFR (and CPE lest I not forget him) were the biggest targets at the time and you're willing to jump off at vote 4? When in your last post you were willing to jump on and be vote 6 on a lurker pressure wagon? I don't understand the path of logic between those two. Why jump off the wagon of the person that everyone is targeting if you're so sure he's scum? Are you trying to let up on some pressure of your scum buddy and look good to the town?
post 148-lists post counts, which as a side note I don't buy. In the last game I was in the highest poster and the biggest lurker at the end were both scum. Different people play different ways and smart people never play the same way twice if at all possible. And rather than going back to LFR, you target N_A for fence sitting. What did you just do going from someone that had the most votes to someone that had none?
post 149-reminds nan to bold his votes, no problems.
post 167-continue your agression towards N_A, using, 1. Fence sitting, 2. lack of voting or FoS'ing, and 3. claiming N_A was lazy in his legwork for targetting nan. Well I already addressed point 1 in my commentary on post 148. Regarding point 2, going by what someone else said (and yes I'm being lazy about this as I've taken the better part of the day to come to this point but I will go back and find out who said it) in that throwing votes and fos's around is a typical scum tell to spread suspicion, why is it a big deal that N_A hasn't done the typical scum thing? Point 3 I can't argue against since I'm temporarily doing it right now. *Shrugs* Meh, so I"m lazy.
post 176-He throws out suspicion on or continues with a spotlight on CPE, Dagger or sgdre, all the while waiting for N_A to respond to previous points of contention. You say Dagger hasn't voted besides his random vote, well neither have I? How come I didn't make the list? Maybe others, like myself wanted to wait to see where a vote would be best placed rather than throwing it around like a 2 dollar hooker.
post 179-Hell...Here's part of the searching I was suppose to do for my commentary on post 167. You, yourself say that
Quote from loran16 »
Massive FOSing is generally a scum tell (fence sitting and allowing you to spread suspicion around in a way hard to trace) and his vote changing strikes me as scummy as well.
So which is it? Changing of votes is scummy or not voting and fence sitting is scummy? Or maybe both. On the other hand, maybe neither. Who can tell, right?
post 185-The assault on N_A continues as you attack his defensive vote and what appears to be poor gameplay. You reference others agreeing with you and your argument but provide no in post proof of that. Shall we just take your word for it? Or maybe go and look through the posts to help you prove your point?
post 187-more attacking N_A with new points to your argument. You attack the too few actions and too many actions as both be suspicious. I don't see how you can have it both ways? Besides, who is it that determines what's too much and too few? I just don't buy the argument and you arbitrarily deciding which is what. As for your points, it could be a variety of reasons he's done that, and yes being a scum is one of those possibilities, but that's not the only possibilty. I see this part of your argument as just being more of a piling on, a "help to win more" rather than a conclusive indictment of N_A's guilt.
post 192-defines some Mafia-speak to Dagger. And subtlely points the finger more at N_A saying
Quote from loran16 »
Somehow it evolved into a scumtell, as scums would try and turn suspicion on them toward their accuser.
This very well could be true for the whole of MTGSal mafia board, but taken in the vaccuum of the game, all it does is influence a newer player as to what you say the hidden connotation is and taint his opinion as such.
post 195-And here's the other half of my searching that I was supposed to do in post 167. This just gives more evidence to me saying that you want to have a scum tell as both and that no matter what someone does, you see it as being a sign of guilt. All of which makes it helpful down the line when you can point back and say "here's where I said it's scummy" to make yourself look better.
post 196-Now here's where I agree with you. Your definition of fence sitting and applying it to N_A is accurate. He did take both sides to some degree. Can't argue with this.
post 215-Some vote corrections and most likely just a 'check in' post to let everyone know you're not lurking.
post 225-Another 'check in' post.
And this was the end of loran's posts when I started my analysis today. The few he posted afterwards I'm not going to comment on as I need to weigh them in regards to everything else.
Overall I think most of the arguments loran presents are an attempt to create suspicion and make other players look worse then they are. Which to me just drips with the taste of scumminess. Therefore I'm Voting: Loran16. As well as FoS'ing: Chimp for the questionable timing of his defense of N_A.
I also think I need to look at CPE and L4R closely as well as they continue to keep pulling the bullseye onto themselves. Hopefully a more in depth look will on my own will reveal some useful information. But this I will hold off on for the moment till I see where this loran thing goes.
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So which is it? Changing of votes is scummy or not voting and fence sitting is scummy? Or maybe both. On the other hand, maybe neither. Who can tell, right?
Uh, do i have to explain this again? Voting or FoSing a ton of people (as CPE has done with his FOSing) is often a scum tell, as scum would like to spread suspicion around to as many town players as possible.
At the same time, not voting anybody, but marking suspicions of multiple people who are OPPOSED to each other (as in the nan vs looking/cpe case, which nom anor was doing) and who may be the most likely lynches is clearly fence sitting. Not only is it doing the same thing as mass voting (spreading suspicion among other players), It's trying to push a lynch of the most likely players while not seeming to be on the wagon.
Just cuz one extreme (mass voting) is scummy, doesn't mean the opposite (not voting yet spreading suspicion) is not scummy.
post 192-defines some Mafia-speak to Dagger. And subtlely points the finger more at N_A saying {quote}
Errr, that was just a random post on explaining how OMGUS became a common mafia term. Its GENERALLY overrated, and clearly cannot be the main base of a case against someone, but is still an additional indicator of another players' scumminess when they are already suspected.
post 176-He throws out suspicion on or continues with a spotlight on CPE, Dagger or sgdre, all the while waiting for N_A to respond to previous points of contention. You say Dagger hasn't voted besides his random vote, well neither have I? How come I didn't make the list? Maybe others, like myself wanted to wait to see where a vote would be best placed rather than throwing it around like a 2 dollar hooker.
Rofl. Nice analogy. I was doling out some early observations of my piecely voting record at the moment (obviously way too short of data for any real reliance on it at the moment.) And its not like i try to say that Dagger and Sgdre have done other things that make me suspect them. I was just noting their voting patterns till that point.
Overall I think most of the arguments loran presents are an attempt to create suspicion and make other players look worse then they are. Which to me just drips with the taste of scumminess. Therefore I'm Voting: Loran16.
Yes, clearly, thats my agenda. Cuz my pursuit of Nom Anor has clearly been an attempt to spread suspicion of multiple other players. In fact, ive mostly dropped CPE and Looking's cases till recently when sgdre started by saying the few people he suspected.
Though i must find it rather funny you'd be against both Chimp for his defense of Nom anor, and me when my main actions have been the pursuit of nom anor. Going after polar opposites now? ;-)
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
EBWODP: The benefit of fence sitting (Trying to spread suspicions on opposing players without hard votes) also allows him to be on wagons as much as it allows him to appear not to be on wagons. So scum players could use it to stay off of townie wagons or to even seem to be on scum wagons that ride out to their conclusion. It just shows the mafia not giving an opinion to the town, and not really helping the town in any way.
I'm tired of having to define why fence sitting, and why mass FOSing/voting are scummy. Can we stop this now? thanks.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
In a previous post I had said that sgdre and Chimp were to two people I had the most suspicions about.
In regards to sgdre, I feel that the second paragraph in post 128 satisfies me as to why I said I felt he was defending MMoD too zealously.
As for Chimp, I originally was suspicious of his post suggesting everyone should being willing to unvote more easily than normal. Even though I continue to somewhat suspect this theory, it's definately to a lesser degree than what I first felt. I'm starting to see the usefulness of not locking onto one person.
Chimp's defending of N_A I do find a bit unusual, though. The chance that he might be blindly defending a scum is fairly high. Or he might be defending a member of his scum party. I mean, no one asked for a PBPA on N_A. He was left to defend himself.
I'm not "blindly" doing anything. The entire point of the pbpa was to analyze his play and the case against him, so I don't think my decision to defend him was blind considering it was based on thorough play analysis. Also, as far as I know it is acceptable to PBPA someone without someone else asking you to. Plus no one asked for a PBPA on Loran but you did one anyway.
Then, suddenly, out of the blue here comes Chimp to throw out the newb card in the PBPA post(203), post 206 and again in post 209. It just seems a little to easy and convenient to me.
I don't consider it "out of the blue" to defend someone as the wagon against them is gaining momentum.
I do, however, find your case against Loran incredibly compelling, just not in the intended manner.
But I feel there's one other person that has been post some other suspicious things, moreso than Chimp. That would be loran.
Any posts before Post 62 I'm not putting much weight on as it was the random voting segment and Chamber hadn't announced the deadline which is when everyone seemed to take things more seriously.
post 79-he denounces lurking. No problem there
post 114-asks for extention. Again, no problem
post 116- LFR did include his reasons in the post. Granted the reasons weren't the most sound, but is it so abnormal for less then sound logic to be presented with a vote? I'm sure it's happened before and I'm sure it'll happen again. Not everyone is able to present sound arguments all the time.
So you believe voting based on visibly unsound logic is justifiable and not scummy at all?
post 118-loran states that LFR votes "right after" nan. So the 6.5 hours of real time is considered ‘right after’? Since when did voting the same as the previous person to vote become such a indicator of scumminess?
Real time is insignificant in online mafia aside from deadline matters. A distance of 3 posts, one of which was a vote count, is a reasonable margin to consider one "right after" another. He essentially repeated CPE's incredibly lousy logic and voted in the same manner. One person having horrible logic occasionally happens. Two people having the same horrible logic one after another, however, usually isn't a coincidence.
Also calling someone’s reason BS is a bit overboard. A person's reasoning is their opinion. That can't be wrong. Maybe the path of logic to arrive at that reasoning is faulty, but to attack his opinion, that smacks of inquisition-like zeal, IMO.
Disagreeing with someone's reasoning is a fundamental part of mafia. Also "path of logic" is synonymous with "reasoning" so I question your reasoning here.
post 120- Who knows why nan didn't remove his post. Maybe he forgot. But in trying to poke holes in someone else's defense by speculating what someone was thinking is shoddy presentation of so-called facts, IMO.
In this post Loran is not speculating at all, but uses "perhaps" as sarcasm because the motive he was "speculating" was the entire point of a lurker wagon.
post 121- Oh, so there is never a chance that a wagon intented to put pressure on someone is never scum-induced? Who's to say that such a thing isn't started by scum in an attempt to somehow lynch the lurker as lurking has such a horrible stigma attached to it, as you previous stated in post 79.
Also note he says he would have been on the wagon if he'd been active, even though it wasn't a wagon to lynch just to pressure.
He didn't say it wasn't scum induced. He said that a lurker wagon in the face of a deadline is not scummy. "An attempt to somehow lynch the lurker"?!?!? if the lurker ever get's lynched in a lurker wagon then you have just caught scum right there in whoever cliffpushed the lurker. Are you implying that using votes to pressure lurkers to vote is bad for the town in the face of a deadline?
post 138-You unvote LFR as vote #4 stating "This lfr wagon is going too fast and i need to analyze." LFR (and CPE lest I not forget him) were the biggest targets at the time and you're willing to jump off at vote 4? When in your last post you were willing to jump on and be vote 6 on a lurker pressure wagon? I don't understand the path of logic between those two. Why jump off the wagon of the person that everyone is targeting if you're so sure he's scum? Are you trying to let up on some pressure of your scum buddy and look good to the town?
post 148-lists post counts, which as a side note I don't buy. In the last game I was in the highest poster and the biggest lurker at the end were both scum. Different people play different ways and smart people never play the same way twice if at all possible. And rather than going back to LFR, you target N_A for fence sitting. What did you just do going from someone that had the most votes to someone that had none?
WTF! He's not using the post counts to point out that people at a certain end of the list are scummy! Read the post! He's using it to show the flaw in Nom_Anor's reasoning against Nan as a lurker because several people have lower post counts. Fence sitting is trying to be able to take either side by not committing to either, which is far from what Loran is doing here and neither of his votes had anything to do with the post counts of their recipients.
*snip*
I don't have time to dissect the rest of the PBPA, but that is plenty of crap logic to warrant a vote.
FoS Vampyr for now and I'll make a note that I'd be happy with a lynch on Vampyr today, though I currently am satisfied with my vote on CPE.
Just cuz one extreme (mass voting) is scummy, doesn't mean the opposite (not voting yet spreading suspicion) is not scummy
Was the double negative put there on purpose? Because that statement is a live grenade just waiting to go off in someone's face.
Quote from loran16 »
Errr, that was just a random post on explaining how OMGUS became a common mafia term. Its GENERALLY overrated, and clearly cannot be the main base of a case against someone, but is still an additional indicator of another players' scumminess when they are already suspected.
And if you had just defined it, I would have had no problems. But adding the second statement is what tripped alarms for me. I just saw it as an unnecessary qualification on your part, that might influence someone new towards a similiar opinion as yours.
Quote from loran16 »
Though i must find it rather funny you'd be against both Chimp for his defense of Nom anor, and me when my main actions have been the pursuit of nom anor. Going after polar opposites now
My suspicion of Chimp wasn't so much that he was defending N_A, it was that he came out to defend someone, who just happened to be N_A, without provocation. He just did it. And in the way he did, consistantly playing the newb card. The fact that N_A was the recipient of the defense had nothing to do with my suspicions of him.
EBWODP: The benefit of fence sitting (Trying to spread suspicions on opposing players without hard votes) also allows him to be on wagons as much as it allows him to appear not to be on wagons. So scum players could use it to stay off of townie wagons or to even seem to be on scum wagons that ride out to their conclusion. It just shows the mafia not giving an opinion to the town, and not really helping the town in any way.
I'm tired of having to define why fence sitting, and why mass FOSing/voting are scummy. Can we stop this now? thanks.
Well I wasn't asking for a definition of fence sitting or why mass fosing/voting are scummy. So doing so was a waste of typing on your part.
My point was that you allege that mass fosing/voting is scummy while attacking one player and then that little fosing/voting is scummy while attacking another player. It was the contradiction of these two points that I found fishy. And then pointed them out.
I understand the implications of fence sitting and mass fosing/voting. What I don't understand is how you use that instance and the exact opposite as reasons to mount cases against different people.
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I have to say, at this time I find neither loran nor chimp very suspicious. I don't find find chimp suspicious because, if he were scum, I can't think of a reason he would put so much effort into trying to save a townie. The only suspicious thing I see in loran is the
"Somehow it evolved into a scumtell, as scums would try and turn suspicion on them toward their accuser."
post. But I haven't really seen anything else particularly suspicious from him, so I'm going to say I don't think he is scum.
After his last few posts, I am starting to think LFR is scum, and not just more of a noob than me. Although I am still keeping my eye on creampuffeater, I have to say
Vote: Looking for Reality
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
I'm not "blindly" doing anything. The entire point of the pbpa was to analyze his play and the case against him, so I don't think my decision to defend him was blind considering it was based on thorough play analysis. Also, as far as I know it is acceptable to PBPA someone without someone else asking you to. Plus no one asked for a PBPA on Loran but you did one anyway.
It wasn't so much your pbpa that I was questioning, even though that's why I typed, it was just the defense of him that I was questioning. And I even mentioned 'defending' three times before I typed pbpa.
Quote from Chimp »
I don't consider it "out of the blue" to defend someone as the wagon against them is gaining momentum.
I do if the person being attacked doesn't seem to be holding their own and someone jumps in out of no where. And the more he posted the more people began to suspect him.
Quote from Chimp »
So you believe voting based on visibly unsound logic is justifiable and not scummy at all?
Did I say that was my belief or are you just putting words into my mouth? I said it has happened, it does happen and it will happen. Did I condone it in any sense? Not at all. But I'm not going to fool myself into thinking that one post of unsound logic makes a scum.
Quote from Chimp »
Real time is insignificant in online mafia aside from deadline matters. A distance of 3 posts, one of which was a vote count, is a reasonable margin to consider one "right after" another. He essentially repeated CPE's incredibly lousy logic and voted in the same manner. One person having horrible logic occasionally happens. Two people having the same horrible logic one after another, however, usually isn't a coincidence.
Ok, so the real time point is irreleveant. Gotcha. But loran is condemning LFR on two points. The timing of his post and his faulty logic. I didn't say anything about the faulty logic. I agree there was a problem there. I question loran's attack as to the timing of his vote. So are you suggesting that two people with the same horrible logic 5 pages apart aren't scum?
Quote from Chimp »
Disagreeing with someone's reasoning is a fundamental part of mafia. Also "path of logic" is synonymous with "reasoning" so I question your reasoning here.
I equated reasoning as the opinion. And I see it as different. For example, I could say I hate original three Star Wars movies. That's my opinon. I can't be wrong as that's my opinion. I might be in the minority, but I'm not wrong. If my reasoning for that opinion is "Because their special effects are poor and suck compare to special effects today" that is a faulty path of logic. So I see attacking a vote as impossible, it's the reasoning that one must attack as that's what one uses to form and support the vote.
Quote from chimp »
In this post Loran is not speculating at all, but uses "perhaps" as sarcasm because the motive he was "speculating" was the entire point of a lurker wagon.
Then you're better at catching body language and/or tone online or have played in more games with loran, as I didn't take it to be said with sarcasm. Nor did I understand anything else in loran's post to be said under sarcasm.
Quote from Chimp »
He didn't say it wasn't scum induced. He said that a lurker wagon in the face of a deadline is not scummy. "An attempt to somehow lynch the lurker"?!?!? if the lurker ever get's lynched in a lurker wagon then you have just caught scum right there in whoever cliffpushed the lurker. Are you implying that using votes to pressure lurkers to vote is bad for the town in the face of a deadline?
I guess I just have a hard time readily accepting that whoever cliffpushes a lurker has to be scum. Maybe it's not seeing enough games. I just don't buy it as an automatic slam dunk. And my point here was that to think there wasn't, or wouldn't be, some scum effort to ramp the wagon up was foolish. Am I reading that differently than the way he typed it?
Quote from Chimp »
WTF! He's not using the post counts to point out that people at a certain end of the list are scummy! Read the post! He's using it to show the flaw in Nom_Anor's reasoning against Nan as a lurker because several people have lower post counts. Fence sitting is trying to be able to take either side by not committing to either, which is far from what Loran is doing here and neither of his votes had anything to do with the post counts of their recipients.
I wasn't attacking his post counting. I attacked the fact he jumped off LFR's wagon which was at 4 before he jumped, which he says was getting to large to fast and the he was going to analyze. So his next post is to refute N_A and vote N_A and say nothing about or continue on with his previous attack of LFR? That's what I found odd.
Quote from LJustus »
Vamp: It's not really a contradiction. Both can be scum tells.
Alright, can be is understandable. Always will be is what I have a problem with.
My suspicions were aroused at the continued use of opposite spectrum arguments from loran. Like he was trying to catch a scum in a trap no matter what the person was doing. It's like getting pulled over by a cop for doing 60 in a 35 zone one time and then being pulled over for doing 25 in that same 35 zone another time. That's the analogy I envisioned when I read loran's posts. And in thinking that way, I felt he was trying to target people just to see what stuck. Hence my suspicions.
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This is mafia. Both of these things happen to be scum tells, as they're often scum tactics. Can townies do them? Sure. But in day1? And trying to target people to see what stuck? Ive targetted just Looking early on an then just nom anor. No one else have i voted or "Targetted" post-randomvotingphase. I made one post detailing a little bit of my voting data, but besides that i fail to see where you come to this conclusion from.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
The "I’m never going to hit everypage am I?” vote count.
Chimp 1 (lfr)
Lfr 2 (Cubus Nom Anor)
Nom Anor 4 (loran ImHungry Dagger Ljustus)
ImHungry 4 (chimp Storm SorryGuy Mmod)
Loran 1 (vampyr)
As of now, only sgdre, swinkee and alpha haven't voted, right? It's not enough to clinch a complete swing then even if they three voted for the same person.
Just out of curiosity since we don't celebrate Thanksgiving over in this part of the world, the celebration lasted for how long exactly? Is it over yet?
And if the deadline approaches, does the person with the most votes gets lynched or it is automatically no lynch?
I don't know if nom is town or scum. But I'd like to point out this type of behavior is his standard modus operandi.
Court Mafia: Day 1, hatch plan to KILL EVERYONE ELSE IN A SINGLE NIGHT, when the plan only allows him to hit 11 random players, ATTEMPTS TO FIRE ANYHOW (Roleblocked).
In other words....Nom is an impulsive player who doesn't think about planning long-term or listening to others. I wouldn't be surprised if he was town. At all.
Please don't answer questions you don't know the answer to. With that said you are partially correct. If there is someone tied for votes I'll pick randomly though, I have no intention of killing both.
Chamber, now can you please Prod Alpha and Swinkee? Thanks.
And thanksgiving is a one day holiday last thursday in america, but the holiday weekend essentially ends on sunday.
There is no reason for their lurkerness. More in a bit.
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
And for those of us in college, we get a break that starts a little bit earlier in the week, and then desperately try to make up for the work that we completely ignored over that break when we get back to school...
Anyways, I guess its about time to VOTE LfR. If I have to switch to CPE at some point I might. I am curious about the people who are still voting N_A. That case doesnt really seem to hold much water to me.
Gah and fie...I'm here. I did say in the thread that I'd be conspicuously absent...but apparently only the mod caught that, thanks Chamber.
I'll be around...anyone who played with me in L5R should anticipate that.
Thanksgiving is a one day holiday, but I was off of school for quite a while with no significant time to analyze this and such. I finished my peace with L5R, and have checked up on here from time to time, but I am now at school and currently at "work" where I have a disgusting amount of free time.
I *have voted, but it was a random...
My thoughts on Loran...he seems scummy overtly, however this is how I expect Loran to function as town. In Seinfeld he had a propensity for the types of analysis and posting here, whereas in L5R he was rather meager and unwilling to throw himself out in the open. L5R he was scum, seinfeld, town. I'm reading town on him currently.
I'm going to analyze a few players quickly, and will follow up with a post soonish.
-Alpha
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
Gah and fie...I'm here. I did say in the thread that I'd be conspicuously absent...but apparently only the mod caught that, thanks Chamber.
I'll be around...anyone who played with me in L5R should anticipate that.
Thanksgiving is a one day holiday, but I was off of school for quite a while with no significant time to analyze this and such. I finished my peace with L5R, and have checked up on here from time to time, but I am now at school and currently at "work" where I have a disgusting amount of free time.
I *have voted, but it was a random...
My thoughts on Loran...he seems scummy overtly, however this is how I expect Loran to function as town. In Seinfeld he had a propensity for the types of analysis and posting here, whereas in L5R he was rather meager and unwilling to throw himself out in the open. L5R he was scum, seinfeld, town. I'm reading town on him currently.
I'm going to analyze a few players quickly, and will follow up with a post soonish.
-Alpha
You said that about the weekend. Not about monday or mid tuesday. And we are on a deadline.
And did you have to bring up l5r? I thought we were all being nice to each other. Ow that hurts. *has flashback to posting a question to CC* OW!
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Meh, not content with me seeing you as a rather non-issue? In no way did I say that I'd only be gone for the weekend...I said over break that I'd be busy. It just so happens that it's hard to get your work for monday done on the break, so monday was out for posting. I also had these little things called class on this morning...I'm posting now. If you have any kind of issue, please vote for me. We can have a discussion.
Moving beyond that...I'm hesitant to vote a 'lurker' as I don't think they should be bandwagonned just yet for not posting largely over the holiday. I sympathize...again, for now.
I do think I can lend my vote to the LFR bandwagonish thing going on, as Cubus makes a good point. He makes a total flip-flop on his position...However, Cubus' play has been a bit unsettling to me. I'll expound a bit more on it if anything should come up further in his future posts, but this may just be my latent paranoia talking.
That said, Vote: LookingForReality
-Alpha
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Quote from TheFooFish »
Lies! -I'm Buffy Summers, town tracker. I used my ability on you and saw that you didn't use any abilities before the game started. My flavor is I was sucked through a mysterious space-time portal and I'm here to kill all the vampires, and my tracking ability is a combination of my Slayer and Native American skills.
Chamber, now can you please Prod Alpha and Swinkee? Thanks.
Hmph, one stretch of time in which I'm too busy to make a meaningful post and you're on me like a cheap suit for lurking. Between essays, work, classes, and winter, I've been unable to spend time, sit down, and collect my thoughts on the game. Tonight, I've got nothing, so I plan on spending it rereading this thread, taking notes, and then posting anything I find particularly relevant.
However, I will say that off-hand, N_A just looks like a new player to me, and LfR and Chimp have been raising my eyebrows a bit. Nothing concrete, but I will be having a close look at them in particular tonight.
Damnit, it's not supposed to snow in the Okanagan!
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Ambivalent owner of nan's soul. Proud worshipper of TFE.
What I meant was that the three questions you reiterated in post 204 seem like they were more intended to make N_A dig himself in deeper than actually gain information. The only use for an answer the second one (of the three repeated in 204) seems to be to help him analyze the flaws in the way he responded to Loran, which I don't see as useful information.
The first one also seems to be questioning his method of playing rather than trying to gain any useful information. How does questioning his means of self-expression help determine whether he is town or scum?
If the answer to the third question was yes wouldn't his vote on Loran have been a real vote not an OMGUS vote?
3CB and 4CB5CB!Although I don't exactly enjoy being called a noob, I am gald that most of you seem to be willing to give me another chance.
Now, perhaps its because I just almost got lynch for similar reasons, but I am not particularly suspicious of LFR.
LFR seems to be, well, overreacting with an OMGUS vote. After I just did that, I guess, I am more likely to look at him as just another defensive noob.(although I would think that he would learned not to do that, if only from what I just did)
Now about Creampuffeater.
In his most recent post, he is clearly hoping for me to get lyched today, since other than me, he has been one of the two most suspicious people, and if I were not to get lyched, I doubt he would want the 50/50 odds of him being lynched.
Although my first thought would be that this is a scum tell, I unfortunatelly haven't had enough experience to definativelly know. I would more than happy if one someone with a bit more experience could give their thoughts on this.
So in conclusion, thank you for your second chance, LFR seems more like a noob than mafia, and if I had to choose one person to be mafia, it would still be Creampuffeater.
Chimp 1 (lfr)
Lfr 2 (Cubus sgdre)
Nom Anor 4 (loran ImHungry Dagger Ljustus)
ImHungry 2 (chimp Storm)
@loran (below) Alpha said in thread he would be busy this weekend. Also in the future, point out my mistakes (preferably over aim) before I have to go back and fix like 6 vote counts.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
After reading everything that's been written since I left, there's still a lot of suspicions floating around and with a weekend of mafia deprevation I'm not sure if my previous suspicions are still relevant, accurate or coherent.
And at this point after driving 4.5 hours I'm in no mental condition to try to reconstruct any sort of argument at the list of my suspects.
So I'm going to do some relaxing, get a good night's sleep and then tomorrow I will do a good deal of analysis and post my thoughts.
I hope everyone can be patient with me just a bit longer. Thank you in advance for doing so.
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Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
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Nom and Alpha are not voting chimp as far as i know, but alpha has lurked a ton. A Prod Please?
also, looking voted chimp i think.
I have to pack for skool, more from me later.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
He certainly should have had a reason for reacting that way instead of just saying that it was rediculous. If it was a mistake, he could have answered that it was to the question. All though he did say it was a poor communication in his part in post 198, he could have been more direct.
Erm... the first one asks him why he didn't unvote. If he wasn't seriously suggesting the lynch of loran16, why didn't he unvote his OMGUS (taking into account that he did unvote after I had originally asked that).
I think you are referrencing different questions...
The fourth question:
Again, this was prior to Nom_Anor taking his vote off. I had thought that if it was just an OMGUS, Nom_Anor certainly would have unvoted.
3CB and 4CB5CB!3CB and 4CB5CB!I wanted to see if he thought his wagon/people on his wagon was scummy and what he thought of it. It may have been phrased in a way to make it seem like I was asking him about his exchange with loran, but I meant for him talk of the wagon itself.
Namely, CPE. LookingForReality has been better recently and I see his responses as townie. He has also been active and while I disagree with him he has used decent attacks on NA. And, after all, he only followed CPE's bad logic earlier, not proposed it.
So you are only upset with NA's over reaction and not loran's original points? Frankly, I do not think that is enough to warrant a vote.
Suspicious of what exactly? Following your bad logic?
I am going to go ahead and Vote: CPE for his most recent post and for earlier reasons.
Im going to start out with an unvote.
After hearing some of Chimp's arguments, and doing some rereading, I definately agree that N_A doesnt look so bad. Also, Chimp looks a lot better in my book (I was getting weird vibes earlier) for helping bail someone out when they could have been a lynch. Even if N_A turns out to be scum, it still is iffy for a scum Chimp to try to help him out of that.
CPE is definately looking iffy right now. I want to hear his response to what ppl are saying.
Also, Chamber can you please use the names ppl have at the site in your votecounts (ie CPE).
It is one of his names on this site : See blind 2.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
I wasn't confused either but will say that I would also prefer that players were referred to by their names.
Sorry guys, ill need to write my analysis sometime tomorrow, probably after classes.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
If that was your intent, the question does make more sense. I'm still suspicious of you for post 111, but I find your justification of the post in question seems reasonable.
3CB and 4CB5CB!Some pressure here nice. Like others said, sketchy logic plus that last post of his makes him scummiest right now to me. N_A right now seems fine to me. Not sure about LFR.
Chimp, your defense of Nom Anor has some merits and I can see where you are getting at. But I would like to listen to what the others have to say first. Vampyr, Alpha, Swinkee... did I miss anyone else?
Even then, I do wish sometimes contributions are not limited to merely a few lines of agreeing or disagreeing with what the others have said. That makes their presence so low beneath the radar...
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
That said i'm going to act upon previous experience with me. I've came up with these arguments before against two people, then withdrawn them as these people were obviously newbs (Tuatha and Cyan respectively), and yet i was right for the right reason (they were scum). I'm not going to take my vote off NA just for that reason.
I've been keeping track of voting patterns of everyone so far. I thought id share so everyone could have the info..certain patterns are interesting.
Swinkee
Ljustus
MMoD
Looking
Stormblind
Nan
Chimp
CPE
Loran
Nom Anor
Nan
Nom
Ljustus
Sorryguy
MMoD
Looking
Nom
Chimp
MMoD
CPE
Looking
Vampyr
Stormblind
Loran
Swinkee
Looking
Nom
Alpha
Chimp
Nan
MMoD
Dagger
Chimp
Nom Anor
Nom Anor
Loran
Loran
Sgdre
Loran
Chimp
Ljustus
Looking
Stormblind
Vampyr
Stormblind
CPE
Cubus
Dagger
Looking
Sorryguy
MMoD
CPE
MMoD
CPE
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Well ive been keeping it recorded myself till now as the votes occur (easier to do than doing it all later) but somehow im doubting the scum will be able to play too much around it.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Not true.
Uh huh. Why?
So why does that make my questions especially scummy?
Not true. If you actually would quote thoes questions...
These are very poor reasons to suspect anyone. I think your notion that they were designed to "trap" someone is absurd. You don't actually explain yourself and give quotations to help suport this; instead you just scream "scummy!" "scummy!" even after I explained myself. I can respond to you once you actually give me something to respond to. Otherwise, it only makes your suspicion meritless.
If you are happy with a lynch, why don't you vote? And why won't you mention me in your posts. You didn't mention me in the post that you voted me either. It's not that long a name.
For once he has a good point. You unvoted Lfr rather randomly, for someone who's all for an LFR lynch sgdre.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
As for not mentioning you, didnt I vote you right after that post which quoted you contradicting yourself? I thought it was obvious why I was voting you. If you really want me to vote you, and you ask nicely, I will.
PS: Usually people say "EBWODP" to indicate "Edit By Way Of Double Post," Im not sure what EBTWOP is (edit by the way of posting?).
While I was making a post someone caught the contradiction that LfR made (maybe vampyr or dagger?). This is still pretty early in the game in my view, and it seemed reasonably scummy, so I through out a vote for some pressure.
Then the whole N_A thing came up, and N_A was looking scummy to me. I FOSed him instead of voting b/c I wasnt sure exactly where the count was (Im pretty sure it was high) and didnt want to put him at something like -1. Note that I am still voting LfR b/c I havent changed my vote.
Through Chimps defense and some other interactions during the period that follow I decide that N_A is not that scummy.
Chamber made a vote count and I realized that I was voting, but was not exactly sure why/it had been a while since my vote --> unvote (remember that this was over break and I wasnt following as closely as I like to).
Loran mentions the upcoming deadline, and how we should pick a target, and I list my top two suspects in order of suspicion.
Thats pretty much how all that went down.
CPE and Looking
Nom Anor.
These are the 3 people i think are scum at the moment (but i don't think that CPE/Looking are in the same mafia group as Nom).
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
In regards to sgdre, I feel that the second paragraph in post 128 satisfies me as to why I said I felt he was defending MMoD too zealously.
As for Chimp, I originally was suspicious of his post suggesting everyone should being willing to unvote more easily than normal. Even though I continue to somewhat suspect this theory, it's definately to a lesser degree than what I first felt. I'm starting to see the usefulness of not locking onto one person.
Chimp's defending of N_A I do find a bit unusual, though. The chance that he might be blindly defending a scum is fairly high. Or he might be defending a member of his scum party. I mean, no one asked for a PBPA on N_A. He was left to defend himself. Then, suddenly, out of the blue here comes Chimp to throw out the newb card in the PBPA post(203), post 206 and again in post 209. It just seems a little to easy and convenient to me.
But I feel there's one other person that has been post some other suspicious things, moreso than Chimp. That would be loran.
Any posts before Post 62 I'm not putting much weight on as it was the random voting segment and Chamber hadn't announced the deadline which is when everyone seemed to take things more seriously.
post 79-he denounces lurking. No problem there
post 114-asks for extention. Again, no problem
post 116- LFR did include his reasons in the post. Granted the reasons weren't the most sound, but is it so abnormal for less then sound logic to be presented with a vote? I'm sure it's happened before and I'm sure it'll happen again. Not everyone is able to present sound arguments all the time.
post 118-loran states that LFR votes "right after" nan. So the 6.5 hours of real time is considered ‘right after’? Since when did voting the same as the previous person to vote become such a indicator of scumminess?
Also calling someone’s reason BS is a bit overboard. A person's reasoning is their opinion. That can't be wrong. Maybe the path of logic to arrive at that reasoning is faulty, but to attack his opinion, that smacks of inquisition-like zeal, IMO.
post 120- Who knows why nan didn't remove his post. Maybe he forgot. But in trying to poke holes in someone else's defense by speculating what someone was thinking is shoddy presentation of so-called facts, IMO.
post 121- Oh, so there is never a chance that a wagon intented to put pressure on someone is never scum-induced? Who's to say that such a thing isn't started by scum in an attempt to somehow lynch the lurker as lurking has such a horrible stigma attached to it, as you previous stated in post 79.
Also note he says he would have been on the wagon if he'd been active, even though it wasn't a wagon to lynch just to pressure.
post 138-You unvote LFR as vote #4 stating "This lfr wagon is going too fast and i need to analyze." LFR (and CPE lest I not forget him) were the biggest targets at the time and you're willing to jump off at vote 4? When in your last post you were willing to jump on and be vote 6 on a lurker pressure wagon? I don't understand the path of logic between those two. Why jump off the wagon of the person that everyone is targeting if you're so sure he's scum? Are you trying to let up on some pressure of your scum buddy and look good to the town?
post 148-lists post counts, which as a side note I don't buy. In the last game I was in the highest poster and the biggest lurker at the end were both scum. Different people play different ways and smart people never play the same way twice if at all possible. And rather than going back to LFR, you target N_A for fence sitting. What did you just do going from someone that had the most votes to someone that had none?
post 149-reminds nan to bold his votes, no problems.
post 167-continue your agression towards N_A, using, 1. Fence sitting, 2. lack of voting or FoS'ing, and 3. claiming N_A was lazy in his legwork for targetting nan. Well I already addressed point 1 in my commentary on post 148. Regarding point 2, going by what someone else said (and yes I'm being lazy about this as I've taken the better part of the day to come to this point but I will go back and find out who said it) in that throwing votes and fos's around is a typical scum tell to spread suspicion, why is it a big deal that N_A hasn't done the typical scum thing? Point 3 I can't argue against since I'm temporarily doing it right now. *Shrugs* Meh, so I"m lazy.
post 176-He throws out suspicion on or continues with a spotlight on CPE, Dagger or sgdre, all the while waiting for N_A to respond to previous points of contention. You say Dagger hasn't voted besides his random vote, well neither have I? How come I didn't make the list? Maybe others, like myself wanted to wait to see where a vote would be best placed rather than throwing it around like a 2 dollar hooker.
post 179-Hell...Here's part of the searching I was suppose to do for my commentary on post 167. You, yourself say that
So which is it? Changing of votes is scummy or not voting and fence sitting is scummy? Or maybe both. On the other hand, maybe neither. Who can tell, right?
post 185-The assault on N_A continues as you attack his defensive vote and what appears to be poor gameplay. You reference others agreeing with you and your argument but provide no in post proof of that. Shall we just take your word for it? Or maybe go and look through the posts to help you prove your point?
post 187-more attacking N_A with new points to your argument. You attack the too few actions and too many actions as both be suspicious. I don't see how you can have it both ways? Besides, who is it that determines what's too much and too few? I just don't buy the argument and you arbitrarily deciding which is what. As for your points, it could be a variety of reasons he's done that, and yes being a scum is one of those possibilities, but that's not the only possibilty. I see this part of your argument as just being more of a piling on, a "help to win more" rather than a conclusive indictment of N_A's guilt.
post 192-defines some Mafia-speak to Dagger. And subtlely points the finger more at N_A saying This very well could be true for the whole of MTGSal mafia board, but taken in the vaccuum of the game, all it does is influence a newer player as to what you say the hidden connotation is and taint his opinion as such.
post 195-And here's the other half of my searching that I was supposed to do in post 167. This just gives more evidence to me saying that you want to have a scum tell as both and that no matter what someone does, you see it as being a sign of guilt. All of which makes it helpful down the line when you can point back and say "here's where I said it's scummy" to make yourself look better.
post 196-Now here's where I agree with you. Your definition of fence sitting and applying it to N_A is accurate. He did take both sides to some degree. Can't argue with this.
post 215-Some vote corrections and most likely just a 'check in' post to let everyone know you're not lurking.
post 225-Another 'check in' post.
And this was the end of loran's posts when I started my analysis today. The few he posted afterwards I'm not going to comment on as I need to weigh them in regards to everything else.
Overall I think most of the arguments loran presents are an attempt to create suspicion and make other players look worse then they are. Which to me just drips with the taste of scumminess. Therefore I'm Voting: Loran16. As well as FoS'ing: Chimp for the questionable timing of his defense of N_A.
I also think I need to look at CPE and L4R closely as well as they continue to keep pulling the bullseye onto themselves. Hopefully a more in depth look will on my own will reveal some useful information. But this I will hold off on for the moment till I see where this loran thing goes.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
At the same time, not voting anybody, but marking suspicions of multiple people who are OPPOSED to each other (as in the nan vs looking/cpe case, which nom anor was doing) and who may be the most likely lynches is clearly fence sitting. Not only is it doing the same thing as mass voting (spreading suspicion among other players), It's trying to push a lynch of the most likely players while not seeming to be on the wagon.
Just cuz one extreme (mass voting) is scummy, doesn't mean the opposite (not voting yet spreading suspicion) is not scummy.
Errr, that was just a random post on explaining how OMGUS became a common mafia term. Its GENERALLY overrated, and clearly cannot be the main base of a case against someone, but is still an additional indicator of another players' scumminess when they are already suspected.
Rofl. Nice analogy. I was doling out some early observations of my piecely voting record at the moment (obviously way too short of data for any real reliance on it at the moment.) And its not like i try to say that Dagger and Sgdre have done other things that make me suspect them. I was just noting their voting patterns till that point.
Yes, clearly, thats my agenda. Cuz my pursuit of Nom Anor has clearly been an attempt to spread suspicion of multiple other players. In fact, ive mostly dropped CPE and Looking's cases till recently when sgdre started by saying the few people he suspected.
Though i must find it rather funny you'd be against both Chimp for his defense of Nom anor, and me when my main actions have been the pursuit of nom anor. Going after polar opposites now? ;-)
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I'm tired of having to define why fence sitting, and why mass FOSing/voting are scummy. Can we stop this now? thanks.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I don't consider it "out of the blue" to defend someone as the wagon against them is gaining momentum.
I do, however, find your case against Loran incredibly compelling, just not in the intended manner.
So you believe voting based on visibly unsound logic is justifiable and not scummy at all?
Real time is insignificant in online mafia aside from deadline matters. A distance of 3 posts, one of which was a vote count, is a reasonable margin to consider one "right after" another. He essentially repeated CPE's incredibly lousy logic and voted in the same manner. One person having horrible logic occasionally happens. Two people having the same horrible logic one after another, however, usually isn't a coincidence.
Disagreeing with someone's reasoning is a fundamental part of mafia. Also "path of logic" is synonymous with "reasoning" so I question your reasoning here.
In this post Loran is not speculating at all, but uses "perhaps" as sarcasm because the motive he was "speculating" was the entire point of a lurker wagon.
He didn't say it wasn't scum induced. He said that a lurker wagon in the face of a deadline is not scummy. "An attempt to somehow lynch the lurker"?!?!? if the lurker ever get's lynched in a lurker wagon then you have just caught scum right there in whoever cliffpushed the lurker. Are you implying that using votes to pressure lurkers to vote is bad for the town in the face of a deadline?
WTF! He's not using the post counts to point out that people at a certain end of the list are scummy! Read the post! He's using it to show the flaw in Nom_Anor's reasoning against Nan as a lurker because several people have lower post counts. Fence sitting is trying to be able to take either side by not committing to either, which is far from what Loran is doing here and neither of his votes had anything to do with the post counts of their recipients.
*snip*
I don't have time to dissect the rest of the PBPA, but that is plenty of crap logic to warrant a vote.
FoS Vampyr for now and I'll make a note that I'd be happy with a lynch on Vampyr today, though I currently am satisfied with my vote on CPE.
So my scum list now is:
CPE
Vampyr
LFR
3CB and 4CB5CB!Was the double negative put there on purpose? Because that statement is a live grenade just waiting to go off in someone's face.
And if you had just defined it, I would have had no problems. But adding the second statement is what tripped alarms for me. I just saw it as an unnecessary qualification on your part, that might influence someone new towards a similiar opinion as yours.
My suspicion of Chimp wasn't so much that he was defending N_A, it was that he came out to defend someone, who just happened to be N_A, without provocation. He just did it. And in the way he did, consistantly playing the newb card. The fact that N_A was the recipient of the defense had nothing to do with my suspicions of him.
Well I wasn't asking for a definition of fence sitting or why mass fosing/voting are scummy. So doing so was a waste of typing on your part.
My point was that you allege that mass fosing/voting is scummy while attacking one player and then that little fosing/voting is scummy while attacking another player. It was the contradiction of these two points that I found fishy. And then pointed them out.
I understand the implications of fence sitting and mass fosing/voting. What I don't understand is how you use that instance and the exact opposite as reasons to mount cases against different people.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
"Somehow it evolved into a scumtell, as scums would try and turn suspicion on them toward their accuser."
post. But I haven't really seen anything else particularly suspicious from him, so I'm going to say I don't think he is scum.
After his last few posts, I am starting to think LFR is scum, and not just more of a noob than me. Although I am still keeping my eye on creampuffeater, I have to say
Vote: Looking for Reality
It wasn't so much your pbpa that I was questioning, even though that's why I typed, it was just the defense of him that I was questioning. And I even mentioned 'defending' three times before I typed pbpa.
I do if the person being attacked doesn't seem to be holding their own and someone jumps in out of no where. And the more he posted the more people began to suspect him.
Did I say that was my belief or are you just putting words into my mouth? I said it has happened, it does happen and it will happen. Did I condone it in any sense? Not at all. But I'm not going to fool myself into thinking that one post of unsound logic makes a scum.
Ok, so the real time point is irreleveant. Gotcha. But loran is condemning LFR on two points. The timing of his post and his faulty logic. I didn't say anything about the faulty logic. I agree there was a problem there. I question loran's attack as to the timing of his vote. So are you suggesting that two people with the same horrible logic 5 pages apart aren't scum?
I equated reasoning as the opinion. And I see it as different. For example, I could say I hate original three Star Wars movies. That's my opinon. I can't be wrong as that's my opinion. I might be in the minority, but I'm not wrong. If my reasoning for that opinion is "Because their special effects are poor and suck compare to special effects today" that is a faulty path of logic. So I see attacking a vote as impossible, it's the reasoning that one must attack as that's what one uses to form and support the vote.
Then you're better at catching body language and/or tone online or have played in more games with loran, as I didn't take it to be said with sarcasm. Nor did I understand anything else in loran's post to be said under sarcasm.
I guess I just have a hard time readily accepting that whoever cliffpushes a lurker has to be scum. Maybe it's not seeing enough games. I just don't buy it as an automatic slam dunk. And my point here was that to think there wasn't, or wouldn't be, some scum effort to ramp the wagon up was foolish. Am I reading that differently than the way he typed it?
I wasn't attacking his post counting. I attacked the fact he jumped off LFR's wagon which was at 4 before he jumped, which he says was getting to large to fast and the he was going to analyze. So his next post is to refute N_A and vote N_A and say nothing about or continue on with his previous attack of LFR? That's what I found odd.
Alright, can be is understandable. Always will be is what I have a problem with.
My suspicions were aroused at the continued use of opposite spectrum arguments from loran. Like he was trying to catch a scum in a trap no matter what the person was doing. It's like getting pulled over by a cop for doing 60 in a 35 zone one time and then being pulled over for doing 25 in that same 35 zone another time. That's the analogy I envisioned when I read loran's posts. And in thinking that way, I felt he was trying to target people just to see what stuck. Hence my suspicions.
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
This is mafia. Both of these things happen to be scum tells, as they're often scum tactics. Can townies do them? Sure. But in day1? And trying to target people to see what stuck? Ive targetted just Looking early on an then just nom anor. No one else have i voted or "Targetted" post-randomvotingphase. I made one post detailing a little bit of my voting data, but besides that i fail to see where you come to this conclusion from.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Chimp 1 (lfr)
Lfr 2 (Cubus Nom Anor)
Nom Anor 4 (loran ImHungry Dagger Ljustus)
ImHungry 4 (chimp Storm SorryGuy Mmod)
Loran 1 (vampyr)
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
Just out of curiosity since we don't celebrate Thanksgiving over in this part of the world, the celebration lasted for how long exactly? Is it over yet?
And if the deadline approaches, does the person with the most votes gets lynched or it is automatically no lynch?
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
Please don't answer questions you don't know the answer to. With that said you are partially correct. If there is someone tied for votes I'll pick randomly though, I have no intention of killing both.
Town/Mafia/Other - 14/6/3
Win/Lose/Tie - 11/12/0
Nk/lynched/Survived - 16/4/3
And thanksgiving is a one day holiday last thursday in america, but the holiday weekend essentially ends on sunday.
There is no reason for their lurkerness. More in a bit.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Anyways, I guess its about time to VOTE LfR. If I have to switch to CPE at some point I might. I am curious about the people who are still voting N_A. That case doesnt really seem to hold much water to me.
I'll be around...anyone who played with me in L5R should anticipate that.
Thanksgiving is a one day holiday, but I was off of school for quite a while with no significant time to analyze this and such. I finished my peace with L5R, and have checked up on here from time to time, but I am now at school and currently at "work" where I have a disgusting amount of free time.
I *have voted, but it was a random...
My thoughts on Loran...he seems scummy overtly, however this is how I expect Loran to function as town. In Seinfeld he had a propensity for the types of analysis and posting here, whereas in L5R he was rather meager and unwilling to throw himself out in the open. L5R he was scum, seinfeld, town. I'm reading town on him currently.
I'm going to analyze a few players quickly, and will follow up with a post soonish.
-Alpha
You said that about the weekend. Not about monday or mid tuesday. And we are on a deadline.
And did you have to bring up l5r? I thought we were all being nice to each other. Ow that hurts. *has flashback to posting a question to CC* OW!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Moving beyond that...I'm hesitant to vote a 'lurker' as I don't think they should be bandwagonned just yet for not posting largely over the holiday. I sympathize...again, for now.
I do think I can lend my vote to the LFR bandwagonish thing going on, as Cubus makes a good point. He makes a total flip-flop on his position...However, Cubus' play has been a bit unsettling to me. I'll expound a bit more on it if anything should come up further in his future posts, but this may just be my latent paranoia talking.
That said, Vote: LookingForReality
-Alpha
Hmph, one stretch of time in which I'm too busy to make a meaningful post and you're on me like a cheap suit for lurking. Between essays, work, classes, and winter, I've been unable to spend time, sit down, and collect my thoughts on the game. Tonight, I've got nothing, so I plan on spending it rereading this thread, taking notes, and then posting anything I find particularly relevant.
However, I will say that off-hand, N_A just looks like a new player to me, and LfR and Chimp have been raising my eyebrows a bit. Nothing concrete, but I will be having a close look at them in particular tonight.
Damnit, it's not supposed to snow in the Okanagan!
Proud worshipper of TFE.
between the new D&D station in the colo, and working 12-14 hours a day, my time's pretty poinked.
I shall have 2 full days the weekend to analyze.
I still believe CPE + LFR are bad