I wouldn't recognize a subliminal claim in this game even if I see one. I haven't watch any of the movies in the View Askew-niverse before.
And I am also not in favor of a movie-claim. I don't see how the town could make more use out of that info than the mafia.
I wouldn't recognize a subliminal claim in this game even if I see one. I haven't watch any of the movies in the View Askew-niverse before.
And I am also not in favor of a movie-claim. I don't see how the town could make more use out of that info than the mafia.
It wouldn't help us now but it could help us later in catching mafia trying to false claim.
That being said, I am against a movie-mass claim. I don't think it will help us at all because LJustus would never make things so obvious with movies.
Anyway, I haven't seen anything from the series I admit, and the way this is going that doesn't look likely to be a good thing since everyone is quoting and sub-claiming left, right and center it seems... ahh well..
Lastly, I agree with Wuffles: if the vig did kill and there isn't some 3rd party killer other than sk/mafia, then he's almost definitely a newb (or someone with a grudge on cyan I suppose because there's definitely quite a few people w/ a grudge on him I should think, but if that's why he fired then he's gonna get a talking to after this game, even though Cyan did turn up scum)
Anyway, I haven't seen anything from the series I admit, and the way this is going that doesn't look likely to be a good thing since everyone is quoting and sub-claiming left, right and center it seems... ahh well..
Lastly, I agree with Wuffles: if the vig did kill and there isn't some 3rd party killer other than sk/mafia, then he's almost definitely a newb (or someone with a grudge on cyan I suppose because there's definitely quite a few people w/ a grudge on him I should think, but if that's why he fired then he's gonna get a talking to after this game, even though Cyan did turn up scum)
...Kops, the vig hit RAF, not Cyan, according to Loran. (who now has, what, 5 votes? lol. :p)
Oh, wow... I totally missed that post or something... no idea how that happened. My apologies... anyway if that's true than the vig really is an idiot because if you're going to hit someone, then why the hell raf?
Ahh, what a terrible opening. . . at least Cyan is dead + was scum. I wasn't sure I could handle another game with him. Every night in Elegant, it took a TREMENDOUS amount of effort to not vig him -_-
I'm going to say No to a movie claim until I get a better idea of what kind of train wreck is going on here - apparent vig n0, dead sherrif, excessive breadcrumbing. I took the 1,000 pages of goofing off in Elegant to be the norm here, but this is looking to be the snowballingest Day 1 ever @_@'
Ah hah! Another tinger? Unvote, vote Rianalnn.
In the end, there can be only one.
BTW, I object to a movie claim, but I fully support an immediate, mass full-claim. More muscle.
Hmm.
Actually, pinning them down early into sucky single-movie claims might not be such a terrible idea either, though the mass-claim would be much more fun and effective.
I'm saying this in all seriousness, btw.
See, as far as I understand it, we've already lost a major power role. Jay and Silent Bob should be able to camouflage themselves easily enough, right, since they can pick pretty much anything?
Now, I assume the cast of characters in the various movies is rather limited. Very, limited actually, if Dogma is a good indication. Therefore, the possibility for POE and counter-claiming is quite considerable, especially since LJ seems to be using a very conventional assignment of scum roles (Azrael, etc.).
Therefore, I would be in favor of an immediate alphabetical movie claim. Or full-claim. Makes things much more interesting, takes them off their guard before they can prepare, etc. A nice, blitzkrieg path to victory which holds at least somewhat lesser consequences since one of our cops has already bit the dust.
Or reverse alphabetical, even, so I have more time to come up with a good false-claim. I assume if a couple people come up with a really terrible claim we can just call it quits nail them on the spot, sic the vig on 'em, and continue the next day if we feel like it.
that...sounds terrible. It's beginning to look to me like you might've gotten the "autoerotic asphyxiation fetishist" power role, in which your victory condition is to be lynched, judging by your playfully sarcastic "I'm mafia" persona and your suggestion of a mass full claim day one
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I am very impressed and rather mystified actually. Is this how a game of mafia is played?
If you mean full mass claims on day one, they're virtually unheard of, and untried.
Typically, the tactic is to try to get reads on people psychologically over the course of the game, particularly by examining the way someone argues and votes. There are a host of established ideas on what is or isn't scummy behavior in different contexts, and recognizable patterns on how different people will try to behave.
One of the patterns which I've found, is that it takes time to formulate a really good false-claim, and also knowledge of the setup. That makes me very curious from a theoretical standpoint to see how many scum we can nab unprepared, because they have no way to gauge what will be accepted.
@Azrael: But if somehow by chance some scums are some of the last to claim, won't that just expose most of the town to the mafia just like that in addition to giving them the time to prepare?
BTW, I object to a movie claim, but I fully support an immediate, mass full-claim. More muscle.
Hmm.
Actually, pinning them down early into sucky single-movie claims might not be such a terrible idea either, though the mass-claim would be much more fun and effective.
I'm saying this in all seriousness, btw.
See, as far as I understand it, we've already lost a major power role. Jay and Silent Bob should be able to camouflage themselves easily enough, right, since they can pick pretty much anything?
Now, I assume the cast of characters in the various movies is rather limited. Very, limited actually, if Dogma is a good indication. Therefore, the possibility for POE and counter-claiming is quite considerable, especially since LJ seems to be using a very conventional assignment of scum roles (Azrael, etc.).
Therefore, I would be in favor of an immediate alphabetical movie claim. Or full-claim. Makes things much more interesting, takes them off their guard before they can prepare, etc. A nice, blitzkrieg path to victory which holds at least somewhat lesser consequences since one of our cops has already bit the dust.
Anyone up for winning the game on day one?
I'm against this. This is not WC3 mafia (Mark I) Az. LJ is not going to make that screw up again.
For example, take: Clerks II- For all we know Wanda Sykes' or ben affleck's characters (A random pissed off black woman and a guy who likes lord of the rings respectively) are in the game. These are minor roles, that take up 5-10 minutes of scenes at most. And there are tons of these roles in each movie.
Dogma's a bad example (the only minor role i could think of is Cardinal Glick), but in both clerks movies, jay and silent bob strike back etc, there are a ton of minor characters who dont even have names (or at least their names aren't introduced in the movies) and still may be in the game.
Full claiming will probably reveal a few of these roles to the town, and the mafia will probably claim a few of these roles or just claim their own roles (Not all of the viewaskew mafia has to be as obvious as Azrael). What does it help us? Very little. At the same time, our power roles are very possibly getting identified.
I'd rather not.
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Mafia MVP Harry Potter Mafia!
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I'd much rather win by outplaying the scum than try an all-or-nothing gambit on day 1 that could nab some scum but could just as easily (if not more easily) screw us over.
@Cubus....If the mafia killed either chamber, maybe but the vig killed RafK. I've said this before and I'll say it again.
Ironically it means that we have either an SK or a 2nd azwolging vig (unless the scum wanted to kill cyan that badly). If its the 2nd I'm scared.
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Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Just a question: Would there be any merit to revealing whether we consider our movie roles to be "major" or "minor"? If there are few minor roles in the game, then perhaps the scum would be find it much more difficult to false claim (should we decide to mass movie claim.)
LfR, any reason for this?
If it is a posting restriction, etc...something you can't talk about, vote me to confirm it.
I think he didn't like my fishing.
Did someone subclaim? There's a few people talking about it, and it seems that they know what the subclaim is. I think it would be right that everyone knows what the subclaim is. (FYI I don't know what the subclaim is)
I read the death-scenes, which indicated they weren't the same, though I suppose the dead-list says otherwise.
I don't think that we should claim anything of any kind at this time.
Did someone subclaim? There's a few people talking about it, and it seems that they know what the subclaim is. I think it would be right that everyone knows what the subclaim is. (FYI I don't know what the subclaim is)
I read the death-scenes, which indicated they weren't the same, though I suppose the dead-list says otherwise.
I don't think that we should claim anything of any kind at this time.
BTW anyone know what LJ means by mall mafia?
Wuffles subclaimed the movie he was in (clerks).
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Quote from Seppel »
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
Just a question: Would there be any merit to revealing whether we consider our movie roles to be "major" or "minor"? If there are few minor roles in the game, then perhaps the scum would be find it much more difficult to false claim (should we decide to mass movie claim.)
Doubtful really, we have no idea if/how the scum follow any kind of pattern.
Besides, this is kind of a subjective call whether or not your role was a mjaor or minor character in the movies because there are obviously some tweeners (just like Serendipity).
LfR, any reason for this?
If it is a posting restriction, etc...something you can't talk about, vote me to confirm it.
I don't like MMoD's fishing, which did not include any reasoning behind it. One could say that it was "too blatant", but that's wifom. He could have been blatant just to deflect any suspicion.
I'm starting not to provide reasoning for my day one votes. It's just ma' style, I guess.
And I would be completely against any sort of massclaim.
Besides, this is kind of a subjective call whether or not your role was a mjaor or minor character in the movies because there are obviously some tweeners (just like Serendipity).
And for some of us, who haven't watch them before, that would be rather difficult.
I'd say Major/Minor is much more likely to reveal info we don't want the scum to have. (Plus as AG says, is hella vague.)
The reason I like mass movie claims: It would lock scum into a movie now. This would mean that without knowing if there is a pattern, they'd have to commit to something. Meaning they either tell the truth (good if we discover a pattern late game). Or they lie (good if we can catch the lie). When I say pattern, I'm not suggesting something like all the scum being from 1 movie, but there may be something.
The harm I can see from this: If there is a bounty hunter, it helps him either if his goal is to kill all from Chasing Amy, or if his Goal is to kill X,Y and Z, and Z is the only one not claimed from some movie.
I seriously doubt that there is a pattern for power roles in the movies, and if there is, by the time it is discovered, we're likely to have noticed a pattern of scum distribution too, so it would be a more or less moot point.
There are (as I recall) a decent number of characters that can claim from more than one movie, so I'm not sure how that figures into any of this.
MMoD, one of the movies is called Mall Rats, and several of the movies mention hanging out at the mall. Presumably, this is the Mafia's base of operations, it is also sacred ground.
There are fansites and wikipedia for those who haven't seen the movies before. That's not why I'm opposed to a mass claim at this point. We all should know, even if LJustus hadn't told us just recently, that he wouldn't make a game capable of being broken by a mass claim. There are enough crazy, wacky and in between characters that he could definitely make a mafia that has no pattern to it. Granted, the same applies to the town, in that power roles don't have to have a pattern, but I think the potential loss is much more than the potential gain.
Going back through the thread, I think SorryGuy was more trying to promote discussion than anything else, so Unvote SorryGuy. I think I know where to put my vote next, on the player whose only real post with content contained major fishing: Vote MMoD.
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"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
The reason I like mass movie claims: It would lock scum into a movie now. This would mean that without knowing if there is a pattern, they'd have to commit to something. Meaning they either tell the truth (good if we discover a pattern late game). Or they lie (good if we can catch the lie). When I say pattern, I'm not suggesting something like all the scum being from 1 movie, but there may be something.
With "lite" massclaims, we have to assess the various gains and losses. What do we gain if we mass movie claim? We can somehow trap them later if the games if they act silly. However, we can trap townie roles as well. As townies and scum die in various movies, the town and mafia roles will start to be apparent. The mafia know how to kill. However, as LJustus pointed out, the setup isn't broken by massclaims. The obvious mafia roles may not even be in the game or a mafia role. With the risk of outing a doc or a cop (yes, I am aware that one already died), I am not willing to commit to a mass movie claim yet.
I seriously doubt that there is a pattern for power roles in the movies, and if there is, by the time it is discovered, we're likely to have noticed a pattern of scum distribution too, so it would be a more or less moot point.
As LJustus wrote, this setup can't be broken by massclaims. I don't think the mafia paterns are going to be obvious of obvious enough.
I've seen all the movies, at least 10 times each. As soon as clerks 2 came out in the theater I downloaded it and watched it 7 times. I guess you could say i'm a fan.
I'm against movie claiming right now, since claims don't usually seem to get very far.
FoS: Loran16 for having more info than I do.
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With "lite" massclaims, we have to assess the various gains and losses. What do we gain if we mass movie claim? We can somehow trap them later if the games if they act silly. However, we can trap townie roles as well. As townies and scum die in various movies, the town and mafia roles will start to be apparent. The mafia know how to kill. However, as LJustus pointed out, the setup isn't broken by massclaims. The obvious mafia roles may not even be in the game or a mafia role. With the risk of outing a doc or a cop (yes, I am aware that one already died), I am not willing to commit to a mass movie claim yet.
As LJustus wrote, this setup can't be broken by massclaims. I don't think the mafia paterns are going to be obvious of obvious enough.
Nobody said anything about breaking the game, I think they're just looking for some info later.
Vote: LookingforReality for trying to tie everything into what the mod said about mass claim game breaking.
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For clarification, I have full confidence in LJustus' ability to create a setup that has well-crafted theoretical safeguards against mass-claiming.
What I'm suggesting is that the mass claims could break the players themselves, not the setup.
And I think some players are overestimating even very competent mafia players' ability to create a false claim that will stand up to full disclosure of the setup, on day one. I, for one, would be absolutely wrecked if I were forced to false claim at the moment. Which is why I proposed reverse alphabetical order.
Also, I'm viscerally opposed to the major/minor claim, as that would tend to identify candidates for a certain lovable duo, and it's also quite subjectively interpreted. FOS Randomacts.
The most information that would theoretically be gained is from abilities, and from names. Those two categories would be what would allow us to nail people.
EBWODP:
Nobody said anything about breaking the game, I think they're just looking for some info later.
You don't seem to find what the mod stated relevant?
My point is that movie mass claiming may catch a doc or a cop, but it will probably not be a strategy for catching scum, like LJustus said. Looking for info, in this case, in also scummy.
What I'm suggesting is that the mass claims could break the players themselves, not the setup.
I can understand that.
But I think this information hurts us more than that helps. That's all I will say.
LFR- How do you see it trapping town roles? Townies won't lie about this, and unless LJ did something like putting 1 cop in each movie, then I don't see how it will reveal anything about the town. As has already been mentioned, there are more than enough roles to go around, and I bet some leads will be conspicuously absent. EG: there's only 1 role left from Clerks, is it the institutionalized girl friend (fairly major) or the kid that bought drugs from J & SB. What it may do is point us in areas to look if we've found scum from 3 movies, but not the others, or similar things. (Yes, I fully expect LJ to have no scum in one movie.)
I have to admit to being somewhat intrigued by Az's idea. I'd love to see it sometime. (Though preferably in a game in which I'm not involved.) And, I suppose if one is going to do it, there's no better time then when the scum RB is down D1. Though if we were to try that, AZ brings up a point about those that go last having an enormous advantage. (This being D1, we can't even make meaningful orders.) My counter suggestion would be mass anagramming. *Note, I'm still not entirely behind the idea, but I think this would make it better.* To make it more difficult to decipher I would suggest adding extra discriptors, such as Raf becoming: Serendipity THE ANGELIC MUSE townie motivator. Now granted, some people that play here are quite good at word puzzles, so I don't know how much that would help.
Thoughts?
AZ-Ironically, J&SB could claim Major or Minor with equal truth.
But I think this information hurts us more than that helps. That's all I will say.
The town will face the risk of losing higher value targets, ability-wise, sooner.
The scum face the prospect of losing the game, possibly the greater majority of their players, or 50% of their group, would be my more conservative estimate. It is completely irrealistic to expect that they will have working false-claims at this point, and their ability to create them on the spot is likely to be greatly hampered by the quantity of unknown roles.
Also, with the town cop AND the mafia RB dead, as Treigit mentioned, right now could be the ideal situation to try something a little crazy.
The worst we have to worry about is losing additional power roles. But the value of power roles to begin with, is their ability to either preserve lives, or to identify scum. With at least one cop already dead, can we truly expect to reap a 50% mafia detection ratio with our remaining information roles? That's doubtful.
Our greatest disadvantage would be the bleeding of our confirmable roles and the loss of late-game process of elimination, but with all the claims on the table from the beginning, I think we could not only capture at best an equivalent amount of scum as with late-game POE, but we could then concentrate fully on behavioral tells once the claims data has been fully analyzed.
That type of approach levels the playing field into a no-ability setting, much like a basic mafiascum newb game, but gives the town an advantage since the mafia will be set back on their heels by having a very high hurdle to overcome from losing members to a mass-claim ambush at the start of the game.
Right now is the ideal time to launch the attack. The mafia only have two townie claims to analyze so far, and they have yet to have a lynch or a night period with which to gather more information, confer with one another, and contemplate possible options for fake claims.
I vote we take this opportunity, and make a bold step towards reversing the continuing trend of scum victories. Let's catch them off their guard.
The scum face the prospect of losing the game, possibly the greater majority of their players, or 50% of their group, would be my more conservative estimate.
And this number comes from... your ass? How do you know the scum don't have safe claims, especially considering that at least one of them (Cyan) had an unclaimable name?
Quote from Azrael »
For clarification, I have full confidence in LJustus' ability to create a setup that has well-crafted theoretical safeguards against mass-claiming.
What I'm suggesting is that the mass claims could break the players themselves, not the setup.
I don't see the difference. LJ has now specifically warned us that the setup cannot be broken via mass-claim, which means that either the scum have safe claims, or the fact that they're scum is not evident by their names. In either case, what makes you think they won't be able to simply claim their real names?
Quote from Azrael »
I vote we take this opportunity, and make a bold step towards reversing the continuing trend of scum victories. Let's catch them off their guard.
I'm not a fan of empty demagougery.
Your plan relies on assumptions about the setup that we have NO WAY of knowing the truth of. You also have no idea what power roles might exist in the town, but you're prepared to out all of them.
Yes, and I trust it implicitly. My best ideas often originate there.
Quote from Arimnaes »
How do you know the scum don't have safe claims, especially considering that at least one of them (Cyan) had an unclaimable name?
I don't see the difference. LJ has now specifically warned us that the setup cannot be broken via mass-claim, which means that either the scum have safe claims, or the fact that they're scum is not evident by their names. In either case, what makes you think they won't be able to simply claim their real names?
I'm not a fan of empty demagougery.
Your plan relies on assumptions about the setup that we have NO WAY of knowing the truth of. You also have no idea what power roles might exist in the town, but you're prepared to out all of them.
The major problem with your argument is that you're predicating the effectiveness of the claims on the NAMES of the people we're tracking. The names are the smallest piece of the puzzle, almost irrelevant.
The real cutting edge of this weapon will be forcing them to claim abilities. Even if LJ gave them false names to use, we'll still catch a number of them through that method.
I don't see why the scum wouldn't simply claim vanilla. Let's say they act completely predictable, and all claim vanilla - we end up with a bunch of claimed vanillas and, presumably, some claimed power roles. Well, we've succeeded in outing all the town's power, and we're still looking for needles in haystacks as far as picking the scum out of the claimed vanillas. The town doesn't really reap any advantage in this case, since we wouldn't lynch people without getting claims first, and therefore wouldn't be at risk of lynching power roles solely because of not massclaiming.
I'm no tinger. I was a News reject from way back who tried in vain to keep the p'chop + e'captions forum alive. Now I just mafia there 'cos I know everyone's posting style. . . *lol@no love for AG*
My counter suggestion would be mass anagramming. *Note, I'm still not entirely behind the idea, but I think this would make it better.* To make it more difficult to decipher I would suggest adding extra discriptors, such as Raf becoming: Serendipity THE ANGELIC MUSE townie motivator. Now granted, some people that play here are quite good at word puzzles, so I don't know how much that would help.
What? Are you suggesting we all full claim in code rather than movie claim?
That type of approach levels the playing field into a no-ability setting, much like a basic mafiascum newb game, but gives the town an advantage since the mafia will be set back on their heels by having a very high hurdle to overcome from losing members to a mass-claim ambush at the start of the game.
This is the point in your argument where you started sounding to me like a SK with a great nameclaim.
Your plan relies on assumptions about the setup that we have NO WAY of knowing the truth of. You also have no idea what power roles might exist in the town, but you're prepared to out all of them.
The real cutting edge of this weapon will be forcing them to claim abilities. Even if LJ gave them false names to use, we'll still catch a number of them through that method.
I thought you were joking, with this idea mixed in with all your 'gives me time to make a fake-claim' talk. Then the mod posts that the setup will not be broken by a mass claim, + you're honestly pushing this. . . I can see the value of locking people into later claims via movie, but the only way I can see a mass full claim working is
A. if the town is full of good players who can use that info effectively (+ sorry, I've never seen that town)
B. there aren't neutrals who win by killing certain people or groups of people (seems to be a popular thing here)
C. LJustus has made a setup that can be picked apart based on roles + abilities (which he has made a claim against, but it's that old R&D vs. Every Magic Player argument - one of these groups has more time to find the loophole).
Maybe it's how you presented yourself so far in this game, or maybe it's because I respect you as a top-tier MT player, but I am seriously getting the fear from you, Az, + claiming you're pulling maths from your ass didn't help.
I don't see why the scum wouldn't simply claim vanilla. Let's say they act completely predictable, and all claim vanilla - we end up with a bunch of claimed vanillas and, presumably, some claimed power roles. Well, we've succeeded in outing all the town's power, and we're still looking for needles in haystacks as far as picking the scum out of the claimed vanillas. The town doesn't really reap any advantage in this case, since we wouldn't lynch people without getting claims first, and therefore wouldn't be at risk of lynching power roles solely because of not massclaiming.
If the scum were concentrated amongst the vanilla claimers, or we discovered an inordinate number of vanilla claims and a high quantity of believable power roles, that would drastically narrow our field of inquiry.
We reap the same end-benefit.
Also, you're making a crucial assumption about LJ's design strategy, there. In most of the games on 'salvation, there are only a small smattering of vanilla roles to offset the remainder of powered roles. Thus, if the mafia picked vanilla, we could expect a much easier time nailing them if LJ's design is not atypical.
I'm no tinger. I was a News reject from way back who tried in vain to keep the p'chop + e'captions forum alive. Now I just mafia there 'cos I know everyone's posting style. . . *lol@no love for AG*
Infidel.
Quote from rianaln »
This is the point in your argument where you started sounding to me like a SK with a great nameclaim. I thought you were joking, with this idea mixed in with all your 'gives me time to make a fake-claim' talk.
A SK, rather than mafia? How so?
I don't suppose it's because you already know who all the mafia are, is it?
Quote from rianaln »
Then the mod posts that the setup will not be broken by a mass claim, + you're honestly pushing this. . . I can see the value of locking people into later claims via movie, but the only way I can see a mass full claim working is
A. if the town is full of good players who can use that info effectively (+ sorry, I've never seen that town)
Err, since all the information would be revealed on day one, every analyst the town had would be able to pore over it and offer their judgments. For the rest of the game, players could refer back to it, and then just worry about playstyle analysis to win the day.
Quote from rianaln »
B. there aren't neutrals who win by killing certain people or groups of people (seems to be a popular thing here)
Conceivable, but those neutrals would be equally likely to be picked up in this kind of operation, if they exist.
Quote from rianaln »
C. LJustus has made a setup that can be picked apart based on roles + abilities (which he has made a claim against, but it's that old R&D vs. Every Magic Player argument - one of these groups has more time to find the loophole).
I don't think LJ's abilities as a host necessarily have much to do with it being breakable via ability claiming on day one: the responsibility to survive that depends almost exclusively on the individual players.
What normally gives them an edge is time, time to think and to analyze the information overnight, and ask advice from fellow scum to tune their claims. If we launch now, we deprive them of all of those tools.
If this tactic works, and to my knowledge it's never been tried except in WC3 mafia where we knew from the start that the game was broken, then the responsibility doesn't fall on LJ, because I doubt that he (or the mafia) could have anticipated it.
In fact, the current circumstances seem ideally suited to try it, due to a fortuitous alignment of events. A dead cop, a dead RBer, and a setup with a moderate to limited amount of information.
Quote from rianaln »
Maybe it's how you presented yourself so far in this game, or maybe it's because I respect you as a top-tier MT player, but I am seriously getting the fear from you, Az, + claiming you're pulling maths from your ass didn't help.
Fear. Always a wonderful emotion for mafia to encourage.
Also, I wish I could recall the acronym which Seol uses to label the thing you did with the math comment. But since I can't, I'll simply state it. You took an apparent logical flaw in the argument, a so-called soft point, and you attempted to capitalize on it with a well-pointed disparaging comment.
But you're not really engaging with the actual meaning of the statement: that we are likely to catch a significant number of scum through pulling an unexpected, hugely ambitious manuever. The exact number is unimportant. If I had said "perhaps half", you likely wouldn't have attempted to use it as ammunition at all.
Basically, you're trying to attack the argument on something unrelated to its merits, but nitpicking on its presentation.
Well, looking over at magic mafia, LJ's last game, we see a huge number of vanillas for a game that size, and this whole strategy does reply on there being a relative lack of vanillas. In any case, I really don't think this strategy is likely to work for various reasons, probably the most notable of which is claim order.
Well, looking over at magic mafia, LJ's last game, we see a huge number of vanillas for a game that size, and this whole strategy does reply on there being a relative lack of vanillas. In any case, I really don't think this strategy is likely to work for various reasons, probably the most notable of which is claim order.
Nah, we can just put everyone who's protesting the measure first in line, and I'm sure it'll work quite well.
Nah, we can just put everyone who's protesting the measure first in line, and I'm sure it'll work quite well.
I have to think that Az is gambiting here but with the high number of inexperienced player and the fact chamber is already gone makes me want to support it. None of the arguments against it compel me and Az does have some good evidence. So, I will go ahead and support it.
Also, do you have a posting restriction of any sort, Az? Ignore this if you can not state.
As for order, I would ask that Arimnaes go first or at the very least near the beginning.
That type of approach levels the playing field into a no-ability setting, much like a basic mafiascum newb game, but gives the town an advantage since the mafia will be set back on their heels by having a very high hurdle to overcome from losing members to a mass-claim ambush at the start of the game.
There is why SK, not mafia. Cute that you want to throw it back at me, but it was your slip first.
Your tone + direct press for a mass claim made me question your motives. Supporting your case with imaginary math DOES NOT HELP MY BAD FEELING ABOUT YOU. I am NOT attacking your mass claim idea based on the maths you proposed being unsound. I am saying, you aren't making a very convincing argument with that line of reasoning.
If we get ONE scum out of the mass claim, but out any docs + info roles we have, is that GOOD maths, I wonder?
I'm not trying to strawman you, I'm saying, it's not a very convincing argument when you admit you're making it up.
Also, we *just* caught scum in Elegant tossing math out + then saying the numbers weren't important, it was the result.
We've already had a good deal of info presented to work with, yet you want to just let it all hang out because we might catch people out that way. I'm not convinced -
Quote from me »
A. if the town is full of good players who can use that info effectively (+ sorry, I've never seen that town)
I'm not sure who's good here + who's not, but I know *you* are. You can see the conflict I'm having then - I think you're being sketchy, + you're for a mass claim.
Actually, I have a better idea. Az (and his vocal opponents), please do me one favor and stop arguing about this until everyone has given a solid opinion on whether or not we should do this. In fact, I think gathering these opinions would probably help the town a lot more than the actual claim would. For the record, I'm currently against it, but I admit I'm starting to see some merits. Not enough to sway me yet though.
And I am also not in favor of a movie-claim. I don't see how the town could make more use out of that info than the mafia.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
It wouldn't help us now but it could help us later in catching mafia trying to false claim.
That being said, I am against a movie-mass claim. I don't think it will help us at all because LJustus would never make things so obvious with movies.
Anyway, I haven't seen anything from the series I admit, and the way this is going that doesn't look likely to be a good thing since everyone is quoting and sub-claiming left, right and center it seems... ahh well..
Lastly, I agree with Wuffles: if the vig did kill and there isn't some 3rd party killer other than sk/mafia, then he's almost definitely a newb (or someone with a grudge on cyan I suppose because there's definitely quite a few people w/ a grudge on him I should think, but if that's why he fired then he's gonna get a talking to after this game, even though Cyan did turn up scum)
...Kops, the vig hit RAF, not Cyan, according to Loran. (who now has, what, 5 votes? lol. :p)
I don't think we can count on bad guys from the movies being our mafia group here.
@VIG- DO NOT FIRE BLINDLY. If you think you have someone nailed as scum, go ahead, but damnit we don't need anyone helping the scum this game.
And why are people openly speculating on the identity of the vig?
The information tap is hereby closed, people. Stop doing it.
unvote, vote Wuffles. Just a hunch.
Ah hah! Another tinger? Unvote, vote Rianalnn.
In the end, there can be only one.
BTW, I object to a movie claim, but I fully support an immediate, mass full-claim. More muscle.
Hmm.
Actually, pinning them down early into sucky single-movie claims might not be such a terrible idea either, though the mass-claim would be much more fun and effective.
I'm saying this in all seriousness, btw.
See, as far as I understand it, we've already lost a major power role. Jay and Silent Bob should be able to camouflage themselves easily enough, right, since they can pick pretty much anything?
Now, I assume the cast of characters in the various movies is rather limited. Very, limited actually, if Dogma is a good indication. Therefore, the possibility for POE and counter-claiming is quite considerable, especially since LJ seems to be using a very conventional assignment of scum roles (Azrael, etc.).
Therefore, I would be in favor of an immediate alphabetical movie claim. Or full-claim. Makes things much more interesting, takes them off their guard before they can prepare, etc. A nice, blitzkrieg path to victory which holds at least somewhat lesser consequences since one of our cops has already bit the dust.
Anyone up for winning the game on day one?
Think it's a good idea?
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
If you mean full mass claims on day one, they're virtually unheard of, and untried.
Typically, the tactic is to try to get reads on people psychologically over the course of the game, particularly by examining the way someone argues and votes. There are a host of established ideas on what is or isn't scummy behavior in different contexts, and recognizable patterns on how different people will try to behave.
One of the patterns which I've found, is that it takes time to formulate a really good false-claim, and also knowledge of the setup. That makes me very curious from a theoretical standpoint to see how many scum we can nab unprepared, because they have no way to gauge what will be accepted.
LfR, any reason for this?
If it is a posting restriction, etc...something you can't talk about, vote me to confirm it.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
I'm against this. This is not WC3 mafia (Mark I) Az. LJ is not going to make that screw up again.
For example, take: Clerks II- For all we know Wanda Sykes' or ben affleck's characters (A random pissed off black woman and a guy who likes lord of the rings respectively) are in the game. These are minor roles, that take up 5-10 minutes of scenes at most. And there are tons of these roles in each movie.
Dogma's a bad example (the only minor role i could think of is Cardinal Glick), but in both clerks movies, jay and silent bob strike back etc, there are a ton of minor characters who dont even have names (or at least their names aren't introduced in the movies) and still may be in the game.
Full claiming will probably reveal a few of these roles to the town, and the mafia will probably claim a few of these roles or just claim their own roles (Not all of the viewaskew mafia has to be as obvious as Azrael). What does it help us? Very little. At the same time, our power roles are very possibly getting identified.
I'd rather not.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I'd much rather win by outplaying the scum than try an all-or-nothing gambit on day 1 that could nab some scum but could just as easily (if not more easily) screw us over.
Ironically it means that we have either an SK or a 2nd azwolging vig (unless the scum wanted to kill cyan that badly). If its the 2nd I'm scared.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I think he didn't like my fishing.
Did someone subclaim? There's a few people talking about it, and it seems that they know what the subclaim is. I think it would be right that everyone knows what the subclaim is. (FYI I don't know what the subclaim is)
I read the death-scenes, which indicated they weren't the same, though I suppose the dead-list says otherwise.
I don't think that we should claim anything of any kind at this time.
BTW anyone know what LJ means by mall mafia?
loran16 - 3 (kops723, ButteBlues, AbbeyGargoyle)
Cubus - 2 (Dagger, Keldulas)
kops723 - 2 (nymphe, mmod)
mmod - 2 (Beaker, LookingforReality)
SorryGuy - 2 (Jobie, Machin Shin)
arimnaes - 1 (Wuffles)
Beaker - 1 (RandomActs)
Jobie - 1 (loran16)
rianalnn - 1 (Azrael)
Wuffles - 1 (arimnaes)
A reminder: unvote before placing new votes, and PLEASE specify who you are unvoting rather than just saying "unvote"
Wuffles subclaimed the movie he was in (clerks).
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Sorry Guy (2) - Jobie, Machin Shin
Cubus (2) - Dagger, Keldulas
loran16 (3) - kops723, ButteBlues, AbbeyGargoyle
kops723 (2) - nymphe, MMoD
MMoD (3) - Beaker, loran16, LookingforReality
arimnaes (1) - Wuffles II
Beaker (1) - RandomActs
Wuffles II (1) - arimnaes
rianalnn (1) - Azrael
Please note that I would not create a set-up that could be broken by a mass claim. Thank you. That is all.
In the end, there can be only one.
[/quote]
Hey, what about me?
Doubtful really, we have no idea if/how the scum follow any kind of pattern.
Besides, this is kind of a subjective call whether or not your role was a mjaor or minor character in the movies because there are obviously some tweeners (just like Serendipity).
I don't like MMoD's fishing, which did not include any reasoning behind it. One could say that it was "too blatant", but that's wifom. He could have been blatant just to deflect any suspicion.
I'm starting not to provide reasoning for my day one votes. It's just ma' style, I guess.
And I would be completely against any sort of massclaim.
And for some of us, who haven't watch them before, that would be rather difficult.
We'll make you an offer you can't refuse.
Hosting: Vista Mafia
Hosted: Intrigue Mafia (Mini), Seance #43 (Basic), Conflux Mafia (Normal), Goo Mafia (FTQ), Experiment #26 (Basic)
Ongoing/Completed - 0/41
Town/Mafia/SK/Survivor - 30/6/4/1
NKed/Lynched/Survived - 15/11/15
The reason I like mass movie claims: It would lock scum into a movie now. This would mean that without knowing if there is a pattern, they'd have to commit to something. Meaning they either tell the truth (good if we discover a pattern late game). Or they lie (good if we can catch the lie). When I say pattern, I'm not suggesting something like all the scum being from 1 movie, but there may be something.
The harm I can see from this: If there is a bounty hunter, it helps him either if his goal is to kill all from Chasing Amy, or if his Goal is to kill X,Y and Z, and Z is the only one not claimed from some movie.
I seriously doubt that there is a pattern for power roles in the movies, and if there is, by the time it is discovered, we're likely to have noticed a pattern of scum distribution too, so it would be a more or less moot point.
There are (as I recall) a decent number of characters that can claim from more than one movie, so I'm not sure how that figures into any of this.
MMoD, one of the movies is called Mall Rats, and several of the movies mention hanging out at the mall. Presumably, this is the Mafia's base of operations, it is also sacred ground.
Going back through the thread, I think SorryGuy was more trying to promote discussion than anything else, so Unvote SorryGuy. I think I know where to put my vote next, on the player whose only real post with content contained major fishing: Vote MMoD.
With "lite" massclaims, we have to assess the various gains and losses. What do we gain if we mass movie claim? We can somehow trap them later if the games if they act silly. However, we can trap townie roles as well. As townies and scum die in various movies, the town and mafia roles will start to be apparent. The mafia know how to kill. However, as LJustus pointed out, the setup isn't broken by massclaims. The obvious mafia roles may not even be in the game or a mafia role. With the risk of outing a doc or a cop (yes, I am aware that one already died), I am not willing to commit to a mass movie claim yet.
As LJustus wrote, this setup can't be broken by massclaims. I don't think the mafia paterns are going to be obvious of obvious enough.
I'm against movie claiming right now, since claims don't usually seem to get very far.
FoS: Loran16 for having more info than I do.
/Official "White and Nerdy" Poster Boy of The Called\
Good Movie Mafia - Townie - Survived - Win
Mortal Kombat Mafia - Mafia - Lynched - Loss
Star Wars Mafia II - Townie - Exploded - Loss
Newbie Mafia 11 - Townie - Survived - Loss
Don't Fear the Reaper Mafia - Solo Mafia after day 1 - Survived - Win
Unluckyville Mafia - Townie - Survived - Win
View Askew Mafia - Townie - Survived - Win
Nobody said anything about breaking the game, I think they're just looking for some info later.
Vote: LookingforReality for trying to tie everything into what the mod said about mass claim game breaking.
/Official "White and Nerdy" Poster Boy of The Called\
Good Movie Mafia - Townie - Survived - Win
Mortal Kombat Mafia - Mafia - Lynched - Loss
Star Wars Mafia II - Townie - Exploded - Loss
Newbie Mafia 11 - Townie - Survived - Loss
Don't Fear the Reaper Mafia - Solo Mafia after day 1 - Survived - Win
Unluckyville Mafia - Townie - Survived - Win
View Askew Mafia - Townie - Survived - Win
What I'm suggesting is that the mass claims could break the players themselves, not the setup.
And I think some players are overestimating even very competent mafia players' ability to create a false claim that will stand up to full disclosure of the setup, on day one. I, for one, would be absolutely wrecked if I were forced to false claim at the moment. Which is why I proposed reverse alphabetical order.
Also, I'm viscerally opposed to the major/minor claim, as that would tend to identify candidates for a certain lovable duo, and it's also quite subjectively interpreted. FOS Randomacts.
The most information that would theoretically be gained is from abilities, and from names. Those two categories would be what would allow us to nail people.
You don't seem to find what the mod stated relevant?
My point is that movie mass claiming may catch a doc or a cop, but it will probably not be a strategy for catching scum, like LJustus said. Looking for info, in this case, in also scummy.
I can understand that.
But I think this information hurts us more than that helps. That's all I will say.
I have to admit to being somewhat intrigued by Az's idea. I'd love to see it sometime. (Though preferably in a game in which I'm not involved.) And, I suppose if one is going to do it, there's no better time then when the scum RB is down D1. Though if we were to try that, AZ brings up a point about those that go last having an enormous advantage. (This being D1, we can't even make meaningful orders.) My counter suggestion would be mass anagramming. *Note, I'm still not entirely behind the idea, but I think this would make it better.* To make it more difficult to decipher I would suggest adding extra discriptors, such as Raf becoming: Serendipity THE ANGELIC MUSE townie motivator. Now granted, some people that play here are quite good at word puzzles, so I don't know how much that would help.
Thoughts?
AZ-Ironically, J&SB could claim Major or Minor with equal truth.
IC-Drawing Flies?
The town will face the risk of losing higher value targets, ability-wise, sooner.
The scum face the prospect of losing the game, possibly the greater majority of their players, or 50% of their group, would be my more conservative estimate. It is completely irrealistic to expect that they will have working false-claims at this point, and their ability to create them on the spot is likely to be greatly hampered by the quantity of unknown roles.
Also, with the town cop AND the mafia RB dead, as Treigit mentioned, right now could be the ideal situation to try something a little crazy.
The worst we have to worry about is losing additional power roles. But the value of power roles to begin with, is their ability to either preserve lives, or to identify scum. With at least one cop already dead, can we truly expect to reap a 50% mafia detection ratio with our remaining information roles? That's doubtful.
Our greatest disadvantage would be the bleeding of our confirmable roles and the loss of late-game process of elimination, but with all the claims on the table from the beginning, I think we could not only capture at best an equivalent amount of scum as with late-game POE, but we could then concentrate fully on behavioral tells once the claims data has been fully analyzed.
That type of approach levels the playing field into a no-ability setting, much like a basic mafiascum newb game, but gives the town an advantage since the mafia will be set back on their heels by having a very high hurdle to overcome from losing members to a mass-claim ambush at the start of the game.
Right now is the ideal time to launch the attack. The mafia only have two townie claims to analyze so far, and they have yet to have a lynch or a night period with which to gather more information, confer with one another, and contemplate possible options for fake claims.
I vote we take this opportunity, and make a bold step towards reversing the continuing trend of scum victories. Let's catch them off their guard.
I don't see the difference. LJ has now specifically warned us that the setup cannot be broken via mass-claim, which means that either the scum have safe claims, or the fact that they're scum is not evident by their names. In either case, what makes you think they won't be able to simply claim their real names?
I'm not a fan of empty demagougery.
Your plan relies on assumptions about the setup that we have NO WAY of knowing the truth of. You also have no idea what power roles might exist in the town, but you're prepared to out all of them.
Yes, and I trust it implicitly. My best ideas often originate there.
The major problem with your argument is that you're predicating the effectiveness of the claims on the NAMES of the people we're tracking. The names are the smallest piece of the puzzle, almost irrelevant.
The real cutting edge of this weapon will be forcing them to claim abilities. Even if LJ gave them false names to use, we'll still catch a number of them through that method.
I don't think that needed to be said.
*keeps reading*
*sees people leaning on modcomment re:setup to support arguments*
What? Are you suggesting we all full claim in code rather than movie claim?
This is the point in your argument where you started sounding to me like a SK with a great nameclaim. I thought you were joking, with this idea mixed in with all your 'gives me time to make a fake-claim' talk. Then the mod posts that the setup will not be broken by a mass claim, + you're honestly pushing this. . . I can see the value of locking people into later claims via movie, but the only way I can see a mass full claim working is
A. if the town is full of good players who can use that info effectively (+ sorry, I've never seen that town)
B. there aren't neutrals who win by killing certain people or groups of people (seems to be a popular thing here)
C. LJustus has made a setup that can be picked apart based on roles + abilities (which he has made a claim against, but it's that old R&D vs. Every Magic Player argument - one of these groups has more time to find the loophole).
Maybe it's how you presented yourself so far in this game, or maybe it's because I respect you as a top-tier MT player, but I am seriously getting the fear from you, Az, + claiming you're pulling maths from your ass didn't help.
If the scum were concentrated amongst the vanilla claimers, or we discovered an inordinate number of vanilla claims and a high quantity of believable power roles, that would drastically narrow our field of inquiry.
We reap the same end-benefit.
Also, you're making a crucial assumption about LJ's design strategy, there. In most of the games on 'salvation, there are only a small smattering of vanilla roles to offset the remainder of powered roles. Thus, if the mafia picked vanilla, we could expect a much easier time nailing them if LJ's design is not atypical.
Infidel.
A SK, rather than mafia? How so?
I don't suppose it's because you already know who all the mafia are, is it?
Err, since all the information would be revealed on day one, every analyst the town had would be able to pore over it and offer their judgments. For the rest of the game, players could refer back to it, and then just worry about playstyle analysis to win the day.
Conceivable, but those neutrals would be equally likely to be picked up in this kind of operation, if they exist.
I don't think LJ's abilities as a host necessarily have much to do with it being breakable via ability claiming on day one: the responsibility to survive that depends almost exclusively on the individual players.
What normally gives them an edge is time, time to think and to analyze the information overnight, and ask advice from fellow scum to tune their claims. If we launch now, we deprive them of all of those tools.
If this tactic works, and to my knowledge it's never been tried except in WC3 mafia where we knew from the start that the game was broken, then the responsibility doesn't fall on LJ, because I doubt that he (or the mafia) could have anticipated it.
In fact, the current circumstances seem ideally suited to try it, due to a fortuitous alignment of events. A dead cop, a dead RBer, and a setup with a moderate to limited amount of information.
Fear. Always a wonderful emotion for mafia to encourage.
Also, I wish I could recall the acronym which Seol uses to label the thing you did with the math comment. But since I can't, I'll simply state it. You took an apparent logical flaw in the argument, a so-called soft point, and you attempted to capitalize on it with a well-pointed disparaging comment.
But you're not really engaging with the actual meaning of the statement: that we are likely to catch a significant number of scum through pulling an unexpected, hugely ambitious manuever. The exact number is unimportant. If I had said "perhaps half", you likely wouldn't have attempted to use it as ammunition at all.
Basically, you're trying to attack the argument on something unrelated to its merits, but nitpicking on its presentation.
So what's up with that?
Nah, we can just put everyone who's protesting the measure first in line, and I'm sure it'll work quite well.
I have to think that Az is gambiting here but with the high number of inexperienced player and the fact chamber is already gone makes me want to support it. None of the arguments against it compel me and Az does have some good evidence. So, I will go ahead and support it.
Also, do you have a posting restriction of any sort, Az? Ignore this if you can not state.
As for order, I would ask that Arimnaes go first or at the very least near the beginning.
Your tone + direct press for a mass claim made me question your motives. Supporting your case with imaginary math DOES NOT HELP MY BAD FEELING ABOUT YOU. I am NOT attacking your mass claim idea based on the maths you proposed being unsound. I am saying, you aren't making a very convincing argument with that line of reasoning.
If we get ONE scum out of the mass claim, but out any docs + info roles we have, is that GOOD maths, I wonder?
I'm not trying to strawman you, I'm saying, it's not a very convincing argument when you admit you're making it up.
Also, we *just* caught scum in Elegant tossing math out + then saying the numbers weren't important, it was the result.
We've already had a good deal of info presented to work with, yet you want to just let it all hang out because we might catch people out that way. I'm not convinced - I'm not sure who's good here + who's not, but I know *you* are. You can see the conflict I'm having then - I think you're being sketchy, + you're for a mass claim.