Also, you're making a crucial assumption about LJ's design strategy, there. In most of the games on 'salvation, there are only a small smattering of vanilla roles to offset the remainder of powered roles. Thus, if the mafia picked vanilla, we could expect a much easier time nailing them if LJ's design is not atypical.
You're making an equally crucial assumption about LJ's design to believe that we'd get a substantial benefit from this. And unlike yours, mine is at least supported by LJ's previous game - if you recall, Magic Mafia was a specialty, and still the majority of the town was vanilla.
True, neither of us knows enough about the setup to judge the impact of taking this measure. But that's all the more reason why we should proceed carefully rather than betting the farm on a massclaim. It's certainly not impossible that it would end up helping us overall, but I have yet to see a good argument from you as to why this is the percentage play.
Actually, I have a better idea. Az (and his vocal opponents), please do me one favor and stop arguing about this until everyone has given a solid opinion on whether or not we should do this.
Nope, still against it. Silly me, but when we know very little about the setup of a game, my first instinct is certainly *not* to make wild leaps of logic to suggest a mass claim on Day 1. You're seriously ignoring the mod having told us his game won't break from a mass claim, meaning no one side will be at an advantage. Whether the scum have fake claims, have non-scummy names and/or abilities or whatever, all that will be accomplished is we will have lots of names and abilities floating around. The scum, who of course can eliminate their buddies from the equation, then have that much more info when picking their NK. I feel like this is such a bad idea, I'll Unvote MMoD, Vote Azrael. I really don't see this as a cool townie gambit idea.
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I'm still against. There was a high amount of vanillas in LJ's last game, which was a specialty game for god sakes....even if the mafia just claims vanilla we can't hunt them down too effectively. Meanwhile, i believe LJ was one of the people advocating less complicate games on mtgs, rather than the silly complicated stuff we've seen recently.
We're just going to expose the town to the mafia and other anti town roles. I'd rather not.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
If the scum were concentrated amongst the vanilla claimers, or we discovered an inordinate number of vanilla claims and a high quantity of believable power roles, that would drastically narrow our field of inquiry.
Sooooo we would lynch everyone who claims vanilla? hmmmmmmmm.
Nope, just keep finding new things that seem scummy. Hey, if my top suspect changes, my vote changes. The way Az has been pushing this claim rubs me the wrong way much more than some fishing by somebody who's barely posted.
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"Flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait, so nice to plait the strips, so nice, so red the drops that fall; blood so red, so red, so sweet; sweet screams, pretty screams, singing screams, scream your song, sing your screams…” - The Eye of the World - Robert Jordan
I don't like MMoD's fishing, which did not include any reasoning behind it. One could say that it was "too blatant", but that's wifom. He could have been blatant just to deflect any suspicion.
I'm starting not to provide reasoning for my day one votes. It's just ma' style, I guess.
And I would be completely against any sort of massclaim.
With "lite" massclaims, we have to assess the various gains and losses. What do we gain if we mass movie claim? We can somehow trap them later if the games if they act silly. However, we can trap townie roles as well. As townies and scum die in various movies, the town and mafia roles will start to be apparent. The mafia know how to kill. However, as LJustus pointed out, the setup isn't broken by massclaims. The obvious mafia roles may not even be in the game or a mafia role. With the risk of outing a doc or a cop (yes, I am aware that one already died), I am not willing to commit to a mass movie claim yet. As LJustus wrote, this setup can't be broken by massclaims. I don't think the mafia paterns are going to be obvious of obvious enough.
to me, this post seems like there was excessive effort put in it to base it off of LJ saying that the setup wouldnt be broken by a mass-claim, noting the repetitive logic
You don't seem to find what the mod stated relevant?
My point is that movie mass claiming may catch a doc or a cop, but it will probably not be a strategy for catching scum, like LJustus said. Looking for info, in this case, in also scummy.
I can understand that.
But I think this information hurts us more than that helps. That's all I will say.
you still seem very against a mass-claim
LJ never said it wouldnt be a strategy for catching scum, just that the setup wont be broken by a mass-claim.
no reason for the change?? you go from "i would be completely against massclaim" to "im convinced" with no reasoning at all...unvote vote:LookingforReality
On the other topic, i would support a mass-claim
i would like Az and LfR to be early on the list if we do mass-claim
Jobie- It's obvious why you want Az near the top of the list. I think any non randomly determined list should have him near the top. However, why SG?
To those that say that we don't have enough information to try this. There will never be a better time, information wise, for a town to attempt this. We have a dead mafia RB, few other deaths, and no one has expounded on the specifics of how their role works. The only reason that d1 claims of any kind work (in non broken games) is because scum don't know what info they can safely reveal. The more info we have, the worse this idea becomes.
For the record- I think that Mass Movie claims might help the town and has a very low chance to hurt us. I think that d1 mass claim has a possibility to reveal a lot, but might also blow up in our faces. I'm supporting it more because I want to see it done sometime, and I can't imagine a significantly better scenario than this.
I'm not convinced -I'm not sure who's good here + who's not, but I know *you* are. You can see the conflict I'm having then - I think you're being sketchy, + you're for a mass claim.
As a point of clarification, without continuing the argument, there are a number of good analysts here in the game that come to mind. However, as they're not necessarily as well-known as some of the more established names on the site, I'd prefer not to mention their names and let their work speak for itself.
Actually, I have a better idea. Az (and his vocal opponents), please do me one favor and stop arguing about this until everyone has given a solid opinion on whether or not we should do this. In fact, I think gathering these opinions would probably help the town a lot more than the actual claim would. For the record, I'm currently against it, but I admit I'm starting to see some merits. Not enough to sway me yet though.
I am in awe of Azrael again, being able to push for a full mass claim this far on Day1. I am seriously in awe.
But seriously though, who would speak the truth when mass claiming abilities like that? Mafia would almost certainly lie, town's power roles would be inviting attention to themselves if they claim truthfully, and by what you said that vanilla claims being the target after the mass claim, even vanillas would be reluctant to follow along in saying truthfully that they are plain vanillas. There are far too many uncertainties involved to follow through with such a huge gamble. I am not really in favor of this.
[QUOTE]to me, this post seems like there was excessive effort put in it to base it off of LJ saying that the setup wouldnt be broken by a mass-claim, noting the repetitive logic
Anything wrong with repeating yourself?
And it was based off LJ saying the setup wouldn't be broken by a mass-claim.
you still seem very against a mass-claim
LJ never said it wouldnt be a strategy for catching scum, just that the setup wont be broken by a mass-claim.
What's the difference?
no reason for the change?? you go from "i would be completely against massclaim" to "im convinced" with no reasoning at all...unvote vote:LookingforReality
I change my mind a lot day one in mafia. People find it a scum tell, but I've never found out why.
On the other topic, i would support a mass-claim
i would like Az and LfR to be early on the list if we do mass-claim
For the record- I think that Mass Movie claims might help the town and has a very low chance to hurt us. I think that d1 mass claim has a possibility to reveal a lot, but might also blow up in our faces. I'm supporting it more because I want to see it done sometime, and I can't imagine a significantly better scenario than this.
I disagree here. The scum in addition to killing, have also had a full night to coordinate/reveal each others' roles and such.
Ergo, I think that they probably at least have some idea of if there is a pattern to their roles, and if so, how they can obscure that pattern so not only do things such as a massclaim or a mass partial claim don't get them all lynched. In addition to this unlikely scenario, if a couple of them die they have had a couple of days to set up fake claims that don't follow that pattern and can seem credible.
Why are all of you following Azrael like sheep? I'm sitting here watching all of you just wandering up to the butcher block and asking for it! He's probably got some kind of role in which he has to persuade the town to do something. I don't think we can trust the mafia to just be that bad guys from the movies. I'll tell you all now that I'm town and if I were forced to name claim, I'd be on the gallows day 1.
I'm also against a full-claim day one. Az is acting like he wants to do this for the novelty of it, but I think if I had come up with that idea i'd put it forward as a suggestion, then back off when it initially met with overwhelming opposition. Instead, he continued backing his idea unrelentlessly, which makes it seem to me like he has some role-related reson for pushing this.
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Well I don't see "overwhelming opposition" to the idea. The idea intrigues me because I've never been in a game where the tactic was tried. So yes, even for the novilty of the idea, I'm leaning toward it. But to quote the Bard, "If were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well it were done quickly." The longer the we wait the less effective the tactic will be.
And yes, my claim will also not help me. But so it goes.
Please stop breadcrumbing stuff like "My claim sounds so bad." If we do end up going through with this ridiculous, hackneyed plan (which I am still virulently opposed to) we should at least do it right.
I have more to say on the issue, but as per kops' request, I'll hold off until everyone commits to an opinion. Does anyone want to start a tally?
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Hunches with no supporting evidence are bad. Look what happened to Raf as a result of someone's "hunch".
I really think this mass claim idea is taking root more because of Az's force of personality than because it's a good idea, or because people think it will work. That's what scares me. I get that vibe from quite a few people who seem to be thinking "Well I know Azrael is a good player, so this must be a good idea." What's more likely is he's a hostile neutral with a great claim, or scum who knows his buddies won't be caught by something like this. Vote stays where it is.
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I think tis time for an LFR LYNCH PARTY! Or at least an attempt. Vote LFR! WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
(And yeah, i do think his change of mind was scummy.....).
Also, i think this means no claims, eh?
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
I am in awe of Azrael again, being able to push for a full mass claim this far on Day1. I am seriously in awe.
But seriously though, who would speak the truth when mass claiming abilities like that? Mafia would almost certainly lie, town's power roles would be inviting attention to themselves if they claim truthfully, and by what you said that vanilla claims being the target after the mass claim, even vanillas would be reluctant to follow along in saying truthfully that they are plain vanillas. There are far too many uncertainties involved to follow through with such a huge gamble. I am not really in favor of this.
Townies should almost never, ever lie about their claims. The situations in which you do are few and far between.
Also, nothing risked, nothing gained. Uncertainty is part of the game.
I disagree here. The scum in addition to killing, have also had a full night to coordinate/reveal each others' roles and such.
Ergo, I think that they probably at least have some idea of if there is a pattern to their roles, and if so, how they can obscure that pattern so not only do things such as a massclaim or a mass partial claim don't get them all lynched. In addition to this unlikely scenario, if a couple of them die they have had a couple of days to set up fake claims that don't follow that pattern and can seem credible.
How many scum groups have you been in where they conferred with one another to set up false claims on a cop head-start night?
Again, the major factor here is that they have not had an opportunity to come up with valid fake ABILITY claims.
What I find more interesting is that only 11/23 living players weighed in on a movie claim and only 19/23 weighed in on a fullout mass claim.
2 reasons:
1. The full claim idea came out before people could weigh in on a movie claim, which kind of made people forget.
2. People respond to questions that interest them the most. in this game, a full claim suggestion will get more posters to speak up than a partial claim, because people feel more strongly bout it.
I feel its interesting how you tend to post info that doesnt really help us and/or make completely useless posts like that. FOS AG.
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
How many scum groups have you been in where they conferred with one another to set up false claims on a cop head-start night?
Again, the major factor here is that they have not had an opportunity to come up with valid fake ABILITY claims.
I'd appreciate further debate.
First off, it wasn't a cop head-start night, it was a VERY deadly night, which was part of the basis for your argument FOR a Day 1 mass claim. That kind of contradiction makes me want to unvote:loran16Vote: Azrael. You are better than that.
As to how many scum groups in the past (excluding current games for obvious reasons) I have been a part of that have done that is largely a function of who was in the mafia with me.
Well what would be so terrible about claiming versions of their actual abilities? I mean discussions of the next day always come up when talking about NKs. Also what would stop them from coming up with some sort of restricted-ability like what I did in Midian?
2 reasons:
1. The full claim idea came out before people could weigh in on a movie claim, which kind of made people forget.
2. People respond to questions that interest them the most. in this game, a full claim suggestion will get more posters to speak up than a partial claim, because people feel more strongly bout it.
I feel its interesting how you tend to post info that doesnt really help us and/or make completely useless posts like that. FOS AG.
1. So a summary of peoples' feeling on both ideas in order doesn't really help?
2. It was still an open question, although I will concede the point to you that it got buried in the torrent of full-claim discussion.
1. So a summary of peoples' feeling on both ideas in order doesn't really help?
2. It was still an open question, although I will concede the point to you that it got buried in the torrent of full-claim discussion.
1. It doesn't expres opinion. You spent two posts posting the summary, but while its' nice to have presentable, doesn't really help the town that much. and your "open question" that this was interesting was a completely pointlesss question.
You're posting a lot, but the content isn't exactly there (though you have been strongly against a full claim, but then again this isn't something that a scum wouldn't do in such a situation.).
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I love Joboman, Poggy, Niv, and Vezok, because, while they may not be the best players, they still try to win. Having fun is the most important thing to a game, but I've learned that if you don't try to win, then you're ruining everyone else's fun.
AG- Your list didn't include me for Full claims, but I think I made it fairly clear that I wasn't opposed. Thinking about it some more, and having done a bit of research, I am opposed to a full claim at this point, but thought I'd include my previous stance for completeness.
I'm still in favor of mass anagramming, I think that if we make it long enough it will make it difficult for scum to pick something out before, but it would lock scum into a claim (or if they're quite good, 2 claims) on d1. Does anyone else have opinions on this?
AG: you forgot to count me (I'm against, don't know what post I first said it in, but it was relatively early in the discussion) so you can make it 20/23.
Anyway, that was definitely useful in getting reactions from people. Positions on the claim are duly noted. I think the most interesting comment was from DM however, as his comment that Az may have a role-related reason for this intrigues me.. I think Az may want to tell us if this is true or not though I'm can't really think of a situation in which he would truthfully say yes (because even if it is true and it's a pro-town role I imagine he's not allowed to say).
I'm still pretty much against the mass claim but I'm still open to a more convincing argument. I just don't see one likely to be forthcoming.
Anyway, that was definitely useful in getting reactions from people. Positions on the claim are duly noted. I think the most interesting comment was from DM however, as his comment that Az may have a role-related reason for this intrigues me.. I think Az may want to tell us if this is true or not though I'm can't really think of a situation in which he would truthfully say yes (because even if it is true and it's a pro-town role I imagine he's not allowed to say).
Well, I asked if he had a post restriction and told him to ignore me if he did. He ignored my post while replying to others. I will ask again, Az, do you have a posting restriction? If he does not reply then we assume he does. Either way, Az, quote and reply to part of this post, please.
At any rate, if we are not going to mass claim, could we get more opinions on movie claims? As for the anagramming, it seems like a bad idea to me. While in a game like Court where there could really be any number of characters here we have a limited number. This leads me to believe that with enough time and their combined efforts, the scum could figure out what each were.
As for the AG post and loran's suspicion of it, I find that ridiculous. All AG did was attempt to summarize people's feelings, when others had asked for it. It is also very relevant to actually have a count of support when talking about something like a mass claim, something that has to be decided almost unanimously. Plus, at least AG is contributing something. The fact that you do not think his contributions are important is one thing, but you must realize he is doing more than those not posting at all.
As a point of clarification, without continuing the argument, there are a number of good analysts here in the game that come to mind. However, as they're not necessarily as well-known as some of the more established names on the site, I'd prefer not to mention their names and let their work speak for itself.
Loran is too good of a player to vig night zero, I think, treigit.
Likely to be a noob player, I would think.
rawr.
This just plays into conversation promoting conversation. Let's talk about who our townie power roles might be! Arimnaes' vote was justified, but you latch onto the word hunch + OMGUS. Vote:Wuffles
Well, I asked if he had a post restriction and told him to ignore me if he did. He ignored my post while replying to others. I will ask again, Az, do you have a posting restriction? If he does not reply then we assume he does. Either way, Az, quote and reply to part of this post, please.
How are you pre-supposing that those situations aren't relevant now?
To use an example that's relevant to this situation, a townie who lied about being vanilla in this game would be feeding disinformation to the town, thus making everyone's task at finding scum more difficult, and conceivably causing a mislynch.
Usually the only time you want to do something like that is if you're highly confirmed anyways, or you have nothing to lose.
First off, it wasn't a cop head-start night, it was a VERY deadly night, which was part of the basis for your argument FOR a Day 1 mass claim. That kind of contradiction makes me want to unvote:loran16Vote: Azrael. You are better than that.
Wait wait wait. Stop the presses. You just voted me for allegedly forgetting that their were kills last night.
...
x 1,000,000
Worst vote rationale ever?
FOS Abbeygargoyle. Even if we just regard it as you attacking a logical error I had no right to make, that's still simply an error of logic, and errors of logic and argumentation are committed by townies as often as scum. They aren't indicative of guilt, they're indicative of absentmindedness.
Either you're looking for the wrong things, or you're gunning for an excuse to build up pressure.
To use an example that's relevant to this situation, a townie who lied about being vanilla in this game would be feeding disinformation to the town, thus making everyone's task at finding scum more difficult, and conceivably causing a mislynch.
Usually the only time you want to do something like that is if you're highly confirmed anyways, or you have nothing to lose.
Ok, that didn't answer my question ("what does a cop headstart game have to do with THIS game"), but thanks, I guess.
Totally hypothetical: What the hell is a doc supposed to do? Hm, lie or expose themselves. Your example doesn't help them any.
As far as having nothing to lose, I don't follow what you mean. Lying with something to gain, sure. That makes sense. Lying because you think it doesn't matter? Wouldn't you just tell the truth? When it's a game, you always have the game to lose, right?
Er...what harm is there in speculating upon a noob vig's identity? If he's going to fire every night, he's in effect a serial killer that needs to be hunted much like a scum.
Er...what harm is there in speculating upon a noob vig's identity? If he's going to fire every night, he's in effect a serial killer that needs to be hunted much like a scum.
And, honestly, speculation like this =/= scum.
A minor tell depending on the player, perhaps.
Unvote.
To me, this does not sound like the way a townie would react to someone's retributory posts. It seems like a mafia member's attempt to drop a potentially dangerous issue by backing off. unvote kops,Vote wuffles.
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True, neither of us knows enough about the setup to judge the impact of taking this measure. But that's all the more reason why we should proceed carefully rather than betting the farm on a massclaim. It's certainly not impossible that it would end up helping us overall, but I have yet to see a good argument from you as to why this is the percentage play.
We're just going to expose the town to the mafia and other anti town roles. I'd rather not.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Sooooo we would lynch everyone who claims vanilla? hmmmmmmmm.
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I would prefer arimnaes to claim first, but would be willing to claim right afterwards if we are planning on going forward here.
bolding mine, remember this line
to me, this post seems like there was excessive effort put in it to base it off of LJ saying that the setup wouldnt be broken by a mass-claim, noting the repetitive logic
you still seem very against a mass-claim
LJ never said it wouldnt be a strategy for catching scum, just that the setup wont be broken by a mass-claim.
no reason for the change?? you go from "i would be completely against massclaim" to "im convinced" with no reasoning at all...unvote vote:LookingforReality
On the other topic, i would support a mass-claim
i would like Az and LfR to be early on the list if we do mass-claim
To those that say that we don't have enough information to try this. There will never be a better time, information wise, for a town to attempt this. We have a dead mafia RB, few other deaths, and no one has expounded on the specifics of how their role works. The only reason that d1 claims of any kind work (in non broken games) is because scum don't know what info they can safely reveal. The more info we have, the worse this idea becomes.
As a point of clarification, without continuing the argument, there are a number of good analysts here in the game that come to mind. However, as they're not necessarily as well-known as some of the more established names on the site, I'd prefer not to mention their names and let their work speak for itself.
*Acquiesces*
But seriously though, who would speak the truth when mass claiming abilities like that? Mafia would almost certainly lie, town's power roles would be inviting attention to themselves if they claim truthfully, and by what you said that vanilla claims being the target after the mass claim, even vanillas would be reluctant to follow along in saying truthfully that they are plain vanillas. There are far too many uncertainties involved to follow through with such a huge gamble. I am not really in favor of this.
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Support Partial claim.
Vote Arimnaes
Hunches with no supporting evidence are bad. Look what happened to Raf as a result of someone's "hunch".
Were we to have one, the scum would probably just use Google or Wikipedia and name-drop a character from a movie someone's already claimed.
So, really, we gain nothing by such a claim, at least, Day 1.
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Anything wrong with repeating yourself?
And it was based off LJ saying the setup wouldn't be broken by a mass-claim.
What's the difference?
I change my mind a lot day one in mafia. People find it a scum tell, but I've never found out why.
Fine.
Fine
I disagree here. The scum in addition to killing, have also had a full night to coordinate/reveal each others' roles and such.
Ergo, I think that they probably at least have some idea of if there is a pattern to their roles, and if so, how they can obscure that pattern so not only do things such as a massclaim or a mass partial claim don't get them all lynched. In addition to this unlikely scenario, if a couple of them die they have had a couple of days to set up fake claims that don't follow that pattern and can seem credible.
Why are all of you following Azrael like sheep? I'm sitting here watching all of you just wandering up to the butcher block and asking for it! He's probably got some kind of role in which he has to persuade the town to do something. I don't think we can trust the mafia to just be that bad guys from the movies. I'll tell you all now that I'm town and if I were forced to name claim, I'd be on the gallows day 1.
And yes, my claim will also not help me. But so it goes.
I have more to say on the issue, but as per kops' request, I'll hold off until everyone commits to an opinion. Does anyone want to start a tally?
Your OMGUS and attempt to discredit are noted.
Sorry Guy (1) - Jobie
Cubus (2) - Dagger, Keldulas
loran16 (3) - kops723, ButteBlues, AbbeyGargoyle
kops723 (2) - nymphe, MMoD
MMoD (2) - loran16, LookingforReality
arimnaes (1) - Wuffles II
Beaker (1) - RandomActs
rianalnn (1) - Azrael
LookingforReality (2) - InfinityCubed, Beaker
Azrael (1) - Machin Shin
Machin Shin (1) - arimnaes
"Did you tell her every time you're on tv you look ten pounds heavier?"
What do you think of various mass claims Keld?
I think it's the avatar.
Suggested: SorryGuy #25
Against: arimnaes #26
Against: M_S #33
Against: ritalin #44
Not opposed: Treigit #46
Against: Dagger #51
Against: AG #52
Against: kops #53
Against: D_M #55
Against: Azrael #59
For: Treigit #81
Against: Infinity Cubed #84
For: Wuffles_II #117
Major/Minor
Suggested: RandomActs #71
Against: AG #78
Against: Treigit #81
Mass Full
Suggested: Azrael #59
Against: loran16 #67
Against: arimnaes #68
Against: Cubus #69
Against: LfR #79
For: LfR #90
For: SorryGuy #98
Against: M_S #104
Against: Ritalin #99
Against: MmoD #101
For: Jobie #108 (conditional)
For: Beaker #111
Against: Dagger #116
For: Wuffles_II #117
Against: ButteBlues #118
Against: AG #120
Against: Draygn_Mage #121
Against: nymphe #122
Wishy/Washy: RandomActs #123
A reason completely game related that I would like to keep to myself. Now that I think about, I would prefer a wagon on SG over mass claim.
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'08 MTGS Fantasy Football Overall Champion
Best Non-SK Neutral Performance (Individual)
I think tis time for an LFR LYNCH PARTY! Or at least an attempt. Vote LFR! WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
(And yeah, i do think his change of mind was scummy.....).
Also, i think this means no claims, eh?
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
Townies should almost never, ever lie about their claims. The situations in which you do are few and far between.
Also, nothing risked, nothing gained. Uncertainty is part of the game.
Ability analysis??
Names wouldn't be the major method of catching people, here.
How many scum groups have you been in where they conferred with one another to set up false claims on a cop head-start night?
Again, the major factor here is that they have not had an opportunity to come up with valid fake ABILITY claims.
I'd appreciate further debate.
2 reasons:
1. The full claim idea came out before people could weigh in on a movie claim, which kind of made people forget.
2. People respond to questions that interest them the most. in this game, a full claim suggestion will get more posters to speak up than a partial claim, because people feel more strongly bout it.
I feel its interesting how you tend to post info that doesnt really help us and/or make completely useless posts like that. FOS AG.
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
First off, it wasn't a cop head-start night, it was a VERY deadly night, which was part of the basis for your argument FOR a Day 1 mass claim. That kind of contradiction makes me want to unvote:loran16 Vote: Azrael. You are better than that.
As to how many scum groups in the past (excluding current games for obvious reasons) I have been a part of that have done that is largely a function of who was in the mafia with me.
Well what would be so terrible about claiming versions of their actual abilities? I mean discussions of the next day always come up when talking about NKs. Also what would stop them from coming up with some sort of restricted-ability like what I did in Midian?
1. So a summary of peoples' feeling on both ideas in order doesn't really help?
2. It was still an open question, although I will concede the point to you that it got buried in the torrent of full-claim discussion.
1. It doesn't expres opinion. You spent two posts posting the summary, but while its' nice to have presentable, doesn't really help the town that much. and your "open question" that this was interesting was a completely pointlesss question.
You're posting a lot, but the content isn't exactly there (though you have been strongly against a full claim, but then again this isn't something that a scum wouldn't do in such a situation.).
Logical Reasoning is dead; Long Live Stupidity
I'm still in favor of mass anagramming, I think that if we make it long enough it will make it difficult for scum to pick something out before, but it would lock scum into a claim (or if they're quite good, 2 claims) on d1. Does anyone else have opinions on this?
AG: you forgot to count me (I'm against, don't know what post I first said it in, but it was relatively early in the discussion) so you can make it 20/23.
Anyway, that was definitely useful in getting reactions from people. Positions on the claim are duly noted. I think the most interesting comment was from DM however, as his comment that Az may have a role-related reason for this intrigues me.. I think Az may want to tell us if this is true or not though I'm can't really think of a situation in which he would truthfully say yes (because even if it is true and it's a pro-town role I imagine he's not allowed to say).
I'm still pretty much against the mass claim but I'm still open to a more convincing argument. I just don't see one likely to be forthcoming.
I don't think it is.
FoS: Loran16
Well, I asked if he had a post restriction and told him to ignore me if he did. He ignored my post while replying to others. I will ask again, Az, do you have a posting restriction? If he does not reply then we assume he does. Either way, Az, quote and reply to part of this post, please.
At any rate, if we are not going to mass claim, could we get more opinions on movie claims? As for the anagramming, it seems like a bad idea to me. While in a game like Court where there could really be any number of characters here we have a limited number. This leads me to believe that with enough time and their combined efforts, the scum could figure out what each were.
As for the AG post and loran's suspicion of it, I find that ridiculous. All AG did was attempt to summarize people's feelings, when others had asked for it. It is also very relevant to actually have a count of support when talking about something like a mass claim, something that has to be decided almost unanimously. Plus, at least AG is contributing something. The fact that you do not think his contributions are important is one thing, but you must realize he is doing more than those not posting at all.
Nice OMGUS. The bolded part is addressing YOU, Wuffles. This just plays into conversation promoting conversation. Let's talk about who our townie power roles might be! Arimnaes' vote was justified, but you latch onto the word hunch + OMGUS.
Vote:Wuffles
What does this have to do with THIS game? *ponders crazy Az gambit in progress*
What? How is compiling info to the effect that the town doesn't currently support any kind of mass-claim not helpful?
+ just out of curiosity, have you played with AG before?
I'm not down with anagramming, not when there's a site that does all the work for you.
Aside from the possibility of alternate win conditions, I think it's ok to lock us all in with a movie claim.
Maybe.
To use an example that's relevant to this situation, a townie who lied about being vanilla in this game would be feeding disinformation to the town, thus making everyone's task at finding scum more difficult, and conceivably causing a mislynch.
Usually the only time you want to do something like that is if you're highly confirmed anyways, or you have nothing to lose.
Wait wait wait. Stop the presses. You just voted me for allegedly forgetting that their were kills last night.
...
x 1,000,000
Worst vote rationale ever?
FOS Abbeygargoyle. Even if we just regard it as you attacking a logical error I had no right to make, that's still simply an error of logic, and errors of logic and argumentation are committed by townies as often as scum. They aren't indicative of guilt, they're indicative of absentmindedness.
Either you're looking for the wrong things, or you're gunning for an excuse to build up pressure.
How many votes do I have so far, btw?
Totally hypothetical: What the hell is a doc supposed to do? Hm, lie or expose themselves. Your example doesn't help them any.
As far as having nothing to lose, I don't follow what you mean. Lying with something to gain, sure. That makes sense. Lying because you think it doesn't matter? Wouldn't you just tell the truth? When it's a game, you always have the game to lose, right?
^^^ more gambit fodder
FOS Azrael
[KalmWave] [Last.FM]
Ubuntu Linux
They tell the truth, prevent a mislynch, and act as a NK magnet.
And, honestly, speculation like this =/= scum.
A minor tell depending on the player, perhaps.
Unvote.
To me, this does not sound like the way a townie would react to someone's retributory posts. It seems like a mafia member's attempt to drop a potentially dangerous issue by backing off. unvote kops, Vote wuffles.