How freaking disheartening. I thought for sure Raf was scum with the way he was going on about there has to be a fifth scum. I give up on mafia. Apparently I have no analytical skills at all.
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Current Soul Collector count: 184
PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
CP: Yes... which is why I am really amazed that we won.
MD: Appealing to emotion on the internet works less than in real life, and you weren't doing it right anyway. The point isn't to make people want to lynch YOU.
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Level 1 Judge
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
Vamp: In fairness, your PM told you there were 4. I wouldn't have thought there was 5 if I'd had your role, and Kenji made no sense at all as a neutral. Once I saw your PM I realised where you were coming from (well, at least as far as the endgame went).
I barely remember this game; I haven't been following it at all. However, I suppose I'll comment on one thing: Cyan, what the heck sense does it make, when there are 7 players and 4 of them are confirmed, to take any chance of killing one of the confirmed ones?
Anyway, the only thing I'm really curious about is what happened to make this game go so long? Wasn't like half the town confirmed in the first two days?
Yeah, but then there was this thing where a scum claimed a guilty investigation on a townie and didn't get instantly lynched for lying And a thing where it turned out we had two docs with the same rolename because Hvir is evil, and one eventually counterclaimed the other one And then Cyan decided to hammer cpe And then it turned out that the cop was a mafia recruit and we lost
In my defense, I forgot what my role was at the moment I role-claimed. Seriously.
Wait, that's not a defense. That's just more evidence I played bad.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Seriously, I don't know why the idea that Kenji could not be a straight cop was met with such resistance. While it wasn't making much sense for him to have claimed cop on D1 as scum, his subsequent play and results (and the fact he lived so long) were just too much indication that there was something wrong. I'm mad at myself that I settled for the "naive" explanation instead of digging deeper. As it turned out, while having a naive cop helps the mafia compensate for the town power, an unrestricted recruitment ability certainly does even better! Imagine if I had completed the mass-claim on Day 1 - could've gotten recruited with the scum and won on Day 6 (or something like that)!
Raf: I completely disagree with you that DYH played a scummy game. While DYH looked suspicious on Day 1, he didn't get much scummier later in the game. He did make some bad decisions (like we all did), but his posts were at least fairly clean.
Regarding Cyan, I am really hating the way he plays. The entire game, one half of my brain knew that he couldn't be scum because of the way things played out with Vampyr on D1, but the other half kept insisting he had to be anti-town somehow because so many of his posts were scummy! Seriously, Cyan is going to lead me to believe he's scum in every game, and that's going to impair my judgment
I agree I misread Raf, particularly at the end. To be honest though, I don't know why I said Raf should be looked at if sgdre and Pod both showed up scum. I think that I didn't really think that case through because I thought it was so unlikely.
I also at least agree with Cyan that my play wasn't spectacular this game. The best I did was to at least try to keep the town in analysis mode rather than simply rushing to lynches. I also consider myself as having failed to prevent the lynch of WoLG (who I was almost entirely sure was town but didn't feel like fighting the wagon) and MD (who I wasn't entirely convinced was town, but there was enough evidence that I shouldn't have endorsed his lynch so readily).
I at least pegged Suth and Axel as anti-town early (I also pegged Cyan too, but let's face it, he really was being scummy), even though I completely misread the fact that they weren't on the same team. Unfortunately, for a long time I had Suth as least likely scum out of the three because I was focusing my attention on Axel and Cyan (to be honest, I regarded them as more dangerous at the time). Fortunately, Suth made the claim slip-up which instantly convinced me he was lying (though even then I was still considering him potentially neutral).
About Fayul's plan, like I said on Day 1, I didn't consider the plan scummy at all because it's Fayul, and I think I have a good grasp on the way she thinks. This was one of the things I refer to as being "easy lynching material," because it's the kind of stuff scum like to jump on because they *think* that's what townies should do.
Hvir: Overall, very interesting setup, even if it had the potential to be really swingy - I at least like how you really messed with the collective town mind by including several improbable things (the number of multiples, the number of "confirmed" players, for example). Though I do recommend being stricter with night deadlines - if players aren't going to submit actions in a timely manner, that's their fault.
Oh, and thanks for the MVP votes from DYH and Raf I at least makes me feel like I wasn't too off... Although I do think my town game is getting better, at least after Court, Warcraft, and this one.
Hvir: Overall, very interesting setup, even if it had the potential to be really swingy - I at least like how you really messed with the collective town mind by including several improbable things (the number of multiples, the number of "confirmed" players, for example). Though I do recommend being stricter with night deadlines - if players aren't going to submit actions in a timely manner, that's their fault.
If I had to sum up the main theme of this game, it would have to be 'punishing metagaming' - the most powerful tool the townies have is their brains, not their role claims. In a way it's also retribution for Warcraft 3 Mafia, which was completely derailed by a mass roleclaim. The double Omniknight/Doctor roles were SPECIFICALLY created for that reason.
The idea behind having so many 'confirmed' roles was to see how many people who be lax on holding their cards close to their chests on the basis that they were in a Mason group or pseudo-Mason group. Recruiting a single Mason would have been devastating, since Masons are frequently given a free pass, and aren't power roles in the traditional sense, so the Mafia could be excused for not killing them off.
I agree that the Mafia would have dominated the game had they taken fadeblue early on - a risk that fortunately didn't materialise. I'll have to work on that.
The Cassandra role (Cyan and Vampyr) didn't work out as well as I thought it would. I might try it again without disclosing the existence of other Cassandras - I understand the bit about there being 4 Corrupted Ones was misleading, but it WAS true at the time I sent it out - the recruitment didn't happen until later.
How freaking disheartening. I thought for sure Raf was scum with the way he was going on about there has to be a fifth scum. I give up on mafia. Apparently I have no analytical skills at all.
Don't give up if it's still fun. I won't. But I think I'll wait till I can give a game some proper attention.
Any game where the following is possible is far too town favoured.
DYH gets run up, claims mason, not lynched, AH gets run up, claims mason, not lynched, Wod gets run up, claims vig, not lynched, Diggy gets run up, claims final mason, doesn't get lynched, Carrion Pigeons gets run up, claims nightstopper, not lynched, Vamp gets run up, Cyan vouches for him, vamp vouches back, not lynched, Kenji gets run up, claims cop, not lynched, Fade gets run up, claims multivoter, not lynched, AK gets run up, claims rolecopier, not lynched.
That's half the game of people who are practically unlynchable, 9 of which are sufficently unlynchable as to be deemed confirmed innocent, and that's not even with considering the Doctors. And in the group of unconfirmed people, 5/10 are scum, the only scum.
The really sick bit is that with the vig/copier/cop, the town could and should have easily had four lynches a day (something it never really twigged on). With CPE's role, make it 5. So the town could have actually killed/investigated 5 out of that group by the end of night 1. And even if the mafia/SK played well enough to make it so all five people were the non scum, it would still be the case that these 5 people have the life expectancy of a mayfly.
This may seem like I'm using a lot of should've's and could've's, but the point is that if the town did this, there is really no could've or should've for the mafia that makes them anywhere near competitive. There are things that put it off town victory, but nothing that puts them in a really nice spot (except for recruiting fade, which pretty much instantly gives victory).
In your opinion, is there any reason the town did NOT go with the suggested course of action which would have pretty much guaranteed their victory?
I agree that the game was definitely imbalanced from the start. But an unrestricted mafia recruiting ability is *very powerful*, moreso than an untargetable Godfather, or an extra kill, or any of a number of powerful Mafia abilities. It still may have not been enough (if the town had played properly), but it certainly goes a long way towards evening the playing field. Of course, it was a bit nerfed by the fact that the Mafia wasn't aware of it at first, so if that member had been the first scum lynched, they would've been significantly behind.
I feel like the game is more swingy than imbalanced. A single thing playing out differently could have a drastic effect on the remainder of the game.
Part the massclaim made it fairly obvious Suth was scum and part the day was already streching on and people were bored. People went for the easy scum lynch on Suth and were content to let the power roles choose what they wanted to do themselves. Because it was done overly quickly, the docs protected the wrong guy, the copier was left unreplaced over night, the cop was recruited and was able to change his choice later that day and the vig vigged a confirmed innocent.
My understanding of the situation is that 'Krobelus' was what got Sutherlands killed. Also, the reason one of the nights took so long was that I spammed the copier into taking a night action.
So I still win right? All Sentinels dead? Nowhere in my role PM does it state that I have to be alive to win! I demand a victory!
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I was reading along intently with the game. When Cyan hammered CPE, I gasped *OMFG, they just lost* (I didn't actually know who out of Kenji/RafK was the final scum, but I was darn sure the town will continue its string of bad luck and lynch the wrong one).
The town didn't optimize its night actions on night 2 because the copier was in terminal lurk mode. Without him, there was nothing to optimize. There was also the minor problem that if we'd let WoD have a second kill, he might have shot a 2nd confirmed townie
I'll never get why he shot at someone that was obviously town, when there were a host of better targets. Seriously..myself, Vampyr, any of the claimed neutrals(particularly sgdre and stormblind, whom were both hugely scumtastic then) would have been vastly better choices. And yeah, having Dreamblade basically never use his ability was just stupid and frustrating as all get-out. The two Docs and DB could have won the game all by themselves, essentially, as Pod pointed out. Hell, if we had faced the 'Double Docs' crisis alot earlier, DB could have provided us a trustworthy way out of it(targetting each of them). Sucks.
The thing which really should have had more scrutiny on you is the claimed self-inspect. It made no sense. Like, at all. If you did that before you were recruited, I am officially shocked.
After that, it was just the mounting coincidence of your investigations being so useless. I think you played it very well- if you'd been obviously scummy other than that, I would have had a go at you the day before, instead of cpe, but all I had on you was your investigation pattern, and opposed to that was the fact the town didn't have a single other information role, not even a tracker, which even for me seemed tough to swallow.
I was told today that this kid on my team called 911 twice this morning and hung up both times. They called back and his dad answered. The reason the kid called 911? He got an erection and didn't know what to do. I wish I was making this up.
Honestly, this game DID seem unbalanced to the vast majority of the mafia. Even AFTER we received our abilities.
Day 1, mass claim, and the only abilities the mafia have is a night kill. So, the only things left for us to do are to claim vanilla or to fake a role.
Honestly, i simply DONT get how pod survived so long. He SHOULD have died the minute he lead to the death of a townie, Add to that LAL and yeah. He should have been toast.
Which is where our problem comes in. We didn't know we were going to get further abilities, and hence couldnt fake our abilities from that. We couldn't fake claim alot of roles without being obvious fakes.
When it comes down to it, when half the town is confirmed day 1, and 3/4ths of the mafia have claimed vanilla, there's something wrong with the game from a balance perspective.
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
Honestly, this game DID seem unbalanced to the vast majority of the mafia. Even AFTER we received our abilities.
Day 1, mass claim, and the only abilities the mafia have is a night kill. So, the only things left for us to do are to claim vanilla or to fake a role.
Honestly, i simply DONT get how pod survived so long. He SHOULD have died the minute he lead to the death of a townie, Add to that LAL and yeah. He should have been toast.
Which is where our problem comes in. We didn't know we were going to get further abilities, and hence couldnt fake our abilities from that. We couldn't fake claim alot of roles without being obvious fakes.
When it comes down to it, when half the town is confirmed day 1, and 3/4ths of the mafia have claimed vanilla, there's something wrong with the game from a balance perspective.
In retrospect, had the Mafia known what abilities they had from the start, what sort of roles would they have claimed?
- The ability to cancel day
- The ability to roleblock
- The ability to recruit
- The ability to freeze unvoting
Of the 4, only the roleblocker has a shot at making a legitimate townie claim. None of the other three abilities are helpful to the town.
The Recruiter could say that he has X one-shot ability, that he would use on person B. He recruits them, and that person either plays along or confronts them, either way it ends up with a cleared mafia likely.
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[19:59] greymon90210: Hey StormBlind how tall are you? "I'm six money *****, don't forget it"
"The Critics always said that we'd only have a black president when pigs flu"...
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PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
Games ongoing:1
Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
Won/Lost/replaced/modkilled- 4/13/3/1
NK'ed(vig'ed)/Lynched/Endgamed(Survived) - 7(2)/5/5(1)
Matrix Mafia Town MVP
Medieval Mafia Mafia MVP
Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
MD: Appealing to emotion on the internet works less than in real life, and you weren't doing it right anyway. The point isn't to make people want to lynch YOU.
Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
America == Velociraptor
Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Yeah, but then there was this thing where a scum claimed a guilty investigation on a townie and didn't get instantly lynched for lying And a thing where it turned out we had two docs with the same rolename because Hvir is evil, and one eventually counterclaimed the other one And then Cyan decided to hammer cpe And then it turned out that the cop was a mafia recruit and we lost
In my defense, I forgot what my role was at the moment I role-claimed. Seriously.
Wait, that's not a defense. That's just more evidence I played bad.
Seriously, I don't know why the idea that Kenji could not be a straight cop was met with such resistance. While it wasn't making much sense for him to have claimed cop on D1 as scum, his subsequent play and results (and the fact he lived so long) were just too much indication that there was something wrong. I'm mad at myself that I settled for the "naive" explanation instead of digging deeper. As it turned out, while having a naive cop helps the mafia compensate for the town power, an unrestricted recruitment ability certainly does even better! Imagine if I had completed the mass-claim on Day 1 - could've gotten recruited with the scum and won on Day 6 (or something like that)!
Raf: I completely disagree with you that DYH played a scummy game. While DYH looked suspicious on Day 1, he didn't get much scummier later in the game. He did make some bad decisions (like we all did), but his posts were at least fairly clean.
Regarding Cyan, I am really hating the way he plays. The entire game, one half of my brain knew that he couldn't be scum because of the way things played out with Vampyr on D1, but the other half kept insisting he had to be anti-town somehow because so many of his posts were scummy! Seriously, Cyan is going to lead me to believe he's scum in every game, and that's going to impair my judgment
I agree I misread Raf, particularly at the end. To be honest though, I don't know why I said Raf should be looked at if sgdre and Pod both showed up scum. I think that I didn't really think that case through because I thought it was so unlikely.
I also at least agree with Cyan that my play wasn't spectacular this game. The best I did was to at least try to keep the town in analysis mode rather than simply rushing to lynches. I also consider myself as having failed to prevent the lynch of WoLG (who I was almost entirely sure was town but didn't feel like fighting the wagon) and MD (who I wasn't entirely convinced was town, but there was enough evidence that I shouldn't have endorsed his lynch so readily).
I at least pegged Suth and Axel as anti-town early (I also pegged Cyan too, but let's face it, he really was being scummy), even though I completely misread the fact that they weren't on the same team. Unfortunately, for a long time I had Suth as least likely scum out of the three because I was focusing my attention on Axel and Cyan (to be honest, I regarded them as more dangerous at the time). Fortunately, Suth made the claim slip-up which instantly convinced me he was lying (though even then I was still considering him potentially neutral).
About Fayul's plan, like I said on Day 1, I didn't consider the plan scummy at all because it's Fayul, and I think I have a good grasp on the way she thinks. This was one of the things I refer to as being "easy lynching material," because it's the kind of stuff scum like to jump on because they *think* that's what townies should do.
Hvir: Overall, very interesting setup, even if it had the potential to be really swingy - I at least like how you really messed with the collective town mind by including several improbable things (the number of multiples, the number of "confirmed" players, for example). Though I do recommend being stricter with night deadlines - if players aren't going to submit actions in a timely manner, that's their fault.
Oh, and thanks for the MVP votes from DYH and Raf I at least makes me feel like I wasn't too off... Although I do think my town game is getting better, at least after Court, Warcraft, and this one.
If I had to sum up the main theme of this game, it would have to be 'punishing metagaming' - the most powerful tool the townies have is their brains, not their role claims. In a way it's also retribution for Warcraft 3 Mafia, which was completely derailed by a mass roleclaim. The double Omniknight/Doctor roles were SPECIFICALLY created for that reason.
The idea behind having so many 'confirmed' roles was to see how many people who be lax on holding their cards close to their chests on the basis that they were in a Mason group or pseudo-Mason group. Recruiting a single Mason would have been devastating, since Masons are frequently given a free pass, and aren't power roles in the traditional sense, so the Mafia could be excused for not killing them off.
I agree that the Mafia would have dominated the game had they taken fadeblue early on - a risk that fortunately didn't materialise. I'll have to work on that.
The Cassandra role (Cyan and Vampyr) didn't work out as well as I thought it would. I might try it again without disclosing the existence of other Cassandras - I understand the bit about there being 4 Corrupted Ones was misleading, but it WAS true at the time I sent it out - the recruitment didn't happen until later.
So... Crystal Maiden, Shadow Shaman, Soul Keeper, Doom Guard. What's the link? Anybody?
In your opinion, is there any reason the town did NOT go with the suggested course of action which would have pretty much guaranteed their victory?
I feel like the game is more swingy than imbalanced. A single thing playing out differently could have a drastic effect on the remainder of the game.
My understanding of the situation is that 'Krobelus' was what got Sutherlands killed. Also, the reason one of the nights took so long was that I spammed the copier into taking a night action.
The thing which really should have had more scrutiny on you is the claimed self-inspect. It made no sense. Like, at all. If you did that before you were recruited, I am officially shocked.
After that, it was just the mounting coincidence of your investigations being so useless. I think you played it very well- if you'd been obviously scummy other than that, I would have had a go at you the day before, instead of cpe, but all I had on you was your investigation pattern, and opposed to that was the fact the town didn't have a single other information role, not even a tracker, which even for me seemed tough to swallow.
Why were you still investigating at that point? Did you get more than "Corrupted One // Not" from your investigations?
Mafia Stats
Day 1, mass claim, and the only abilities the mafia have is a night kill. So, the only things left for us to do are to claim vanilla or to fake a role.
Honestly, i simply DONT get how pod survived so long. He SHOULD have died the minute he lead to the death of a townie, Add to that LAL and yeah. He should have been toast.
Which is where our problem comes in. We didn't know we were going to get further abilities, and hence couldnt fake our abilities from that. We couldn't fake claim alot of roles without being obvious fakes.
When it comes down to it, when half the town is confirmed day 1, and 3/4ths of the mafia have claimed vanilla, there's something wrong with the game from a balance perspective.
In retrospect, had the Mafia known what abilities they had from the start, what sort of roles would they have claimed?
- The ability to cancel day
- The ability to roleblock
- The ability to recruit
- The ability to freeze unvoting
Of the 4, only the roleblocker has a shot at making a legitimate townie claim. None of the other three abilities are helpful to the town.
The Recruiter could say that he has X one-shot ability, that he would use on person B. He recruits them, and that person either plays along or confronts them, either way it ends up with a cleared mafia likely.