MTG Salvation

Wow, cyan and niv are you really asking for a draw....i meant thats even funnier than i thought.

The mafia were extremely screwed after day 2. To get to this point, essentially meant that the town screwed themselves to hell, and that being the case, if you can consider this a draw when you played that poorly.....wow.

Of note fade, the post count limitation would be fine if it was applied across the board, but it was one sided for the most part and made things really difficult due to powerful roles being given to active players (giving them an extra advantage they shouldn't have had). I think that's the flaw in this system....it prevents lurking fine, but it gives unintended advantages to random players. Had Cyan and ande been switched with say rafk and me, then the mafia wouldve been more powerful, and that shouldnt be the case.

Also of note was the one guy immune to this restriction was hawkeye, the mafia member with the least active posting style....which was kind of amusing.

Finally, id like to apologize to the rest of the mafia....i really half-assed my play in this game, and i feel had i not lurked while under suspicion i couldve survived longer. It ended up coming out fine, but i hurt my teammates in a way that i didnt intend to, and im quite sorry for that.

EDIT Cyan, seriously.....you and ande and every other town player knew i was scum, because it was obvious. Don't go taking credit for something that was seriously bad play on my part. I ****ed up. Badly. And it probably should've crippled us. Fortunately.....you (and the rest of the town by extension) screwed up.

Quote from Cyan

CPE was *not* a confirmed townie. Not of his targets were concrete enough for us to know that he was being real. And he doomed himself/us(to some extent) with that ridiculously retarded disclaimer of 'If Hawkeye is town I'll target Niv tonight' after saying he watched HE kill Xyre. Had that not been included, no one would have doubted him. The lack of confirmation of his ability, despite being on day million, combined with that dubious statement by him(nevermind how little sense his early play made, where he kept trying to stall lynches of obvious scum..a strategy that would have benefited the scum hugely, knowing now how their NKs worked), was why we could not trust him entirely.

If I recall correctly, he knew you targeted HE7 on day 8, and you yourself called him fully confirmed, or you forgot? Also, it's CPE, so a retarded disclaimer is a non-tell, you of all people should've known that.

That's assuming WoLG doesn't get lynched twice? I don't know if him not dying would make people consider him confirmed.

I think the biggest problem was that we went Godfather hunting right away. The two uninvestigated players should have, in my opinion, been lynched first, for having at least equal chance of being the Godfather, and also on the chance that there wasn't actually a Godfather with the mafia Doctor.

By the way, did DYH actually target Rafk, or did he target Ged (who was apparently killed by two players), and change his claim because he was dead and scum?

You know what, with the things this town pulled, I would actually not at all be surprised if WOLG would've been lynched twice.

Quote from loran16

Finally, id like to apologize to the rest of the mafia....i really half-assed my play in this game, and i feel had i not lurked while under suspicion i couldve survived longer. It ended up coming out fine, but i hurt my teammates in a way that i didnt intend to, and im quite sorry for that.

No need to apologize Loran.
Mafia is a fluid game and it is never easy to gage how being active or less active is going to be reacted to by the opponent. In a way, it may have helped as Raf and I were able to use that to try to make ourselves look better.

That reminds me, here's the list of night actions:

Night 1
Alpha inspects DYH
Xyre inspects Cyan
cpe tracks Cyan
ferro motivates andelijah
loran redirects ferro to Raf
DYH protects Raf
Raf kills Axelrod
Axelrod kills Ged (successful roll)
Ged inspects Niv
Niv kills Ged

*Note that DYH's superdoc ability prevented ferro from granting Raf a second kill!

Night 2
cpe tracks Tilde
Cyan steals Treigit's vote
ferro motivates Alpha (who is inactive this night)
loran redirects Alpha to ferro
Hawkeye kills ferro

Night 3
Alpha inspects cpe
Xyre inspects Treigit
cpe tracks Wuffles
Wuffles blocks everyone except Alpha, Xyre, Cyan
Cyan steals Treigit's vote
andelijah protects Alpha, Xyre
loran redirects Wuffles to Xyre
Raf kills Alpha
Tilde protects Vampyr

Night 4
Xyre inspects Treigit
cpe tracks Xyre
andelijah protects Alpha, Xyre
Cyan steals loran's vote
Hawkeye kills Alpha
loran directs Xyre to Niv
Niv kills Xyre

Night 5
Alpha inspects Treigit
cpe tracks Xyre
andelijah protects Alpha, Xyre
Cyan steals Alx's vote
Raf kills Vampyr

Night 6
Xyre inspects Tilde
cpe tracks Raf
Cyan steals WoLG's vote
Hawkeye kills andelijah
Tilde kills Hawkeye

Night 7
Alpha inspects Hawkeye
cpe tracks Cyan
Cyan steals Hawkeye's vote
Raf kills Alpha

Night 8
Xyre inspects WoLG
cpe tracks Hawkeye
Cyan steals Hawkeye's vote
Hawkeye kills Xyre

Night 9
cpe tracks Niv
Cyan steals Hawkeye's vote
Raf kills WoLG
Niv kills cpe

LOL I personally feel like we deserved it after that STUPID nl. Seriously, the disclamer was so you knew my position already if there was something else. As for a tie, it isnt. BAH! but we sucked after day 2, so oh well.

Quote from fadeblue

That reminds me, here's the list of night actions:

*Note that DYH's superdoc ability prevented ferro from granting Raf a second kill!

well that was lucky for me

thanks DYH

Quote from andelijah

For what its worth, I still dislike your play with Kenji.

It never crossed my mind for one second that he was SK, but it was indeed a tell, since if I didn't know for sure that he wasn't mafia I doubt I would have defended him with such zeal.

By day 5 or 6 though, no-one was even mentioning that, much less basing a lynch argument against me on it.

Quote from andelijah »

]Meh, I hate flavor based arguments. To be honest, I hated the sweeper monk claim, as well as the pun.

What pun? Did I actually say "don't fear the sweeper" out loud at some point?

Quote from andelijah »

The only thing that stood out was the lack of gender when everyone else had some, I was suspecting that you were the general, and it was written in second person (using "you" instead of "he") or something.

Yes, either you or someone else said exactly that, and it was driving me nuts since I wasn't the general and my PM was not written in second person. I'm glad my "example sentence" worked so well, since losing based on PM wording stuff would have irritated me. I really don't like tactics based around PM wording, it's against the spirit of the game.

Quote from RafaelK »

What pun? Did I actually say "don't fear the sweeper" out loud at some point?

If you did, I believe you deserve some sort of prize.

RafK defending the SK really was not a tell. It really cannot be a tell.

cpe watching me on a night HE was doing the kill was pretty clutch, I must admit. So was Niv following through and killing cpe last night (if I was him I don't think I would have, since if cpe is scum and kills Niv, cpe is going to be lynched the next day anyway for not dying).

So was Tilde being pretty much the one person who would investigate as dodgy to buy us the day we needed, although we gave ourselves maximum opportunity there. I'm very happy about making the call to kill Vampyr when we did.

OTOH, how unlucky was poor Ged?

Quote from RafaelK

By day 5 or 6 though, no-one was even mentioning that, much less basing a lynch argument against me on it.

Yea, with Cyan and CPE yelling at me to drop it, I wasn't really getting anywhere.

What pun? Did I actually say "don't fear the sweeper" out loud at some point?

You said "the mafia swept into the city" or something like that.

Yes, either you or someone else said exactly that, and it was driving me nuts since I wasn't the general and my PM was not written in second person. I'm glad my "example sentence" worked so well, since losing based on PM wording stuff would have irritated me. I really don't like tactics based around PM wording, it's against the spirit of the game.

Meh, I was really looking for anything to convince other people that you were the right lynch. Since I really couldn't think of a way to write such a sentence, I asked about it, figuring you wouldn't be able to either. It wasn't really a way to tell if you were lying about your role or not, just if you were lying about having a gender or not. I don't feel its against the spirit of the game to make someone prove their claim is at least plausible.

Quote from Cyan »

RafK defending the SK really was not a tell. It really cannot be a tell.

If you defend someone that much all day (actively defending them, not just gut feeling or whatever), you should have a reason to. "Knowing" their alignment is one of the largest reasons, he just got unlucky.

Quote from andelijah

You said "the mafia swept into the city" or something like that.

Oh. That was unintentional.

I was hoping I did something funnier than that.

Can we ret-con it so that I said "don't fear the sweeper"?

I don't feel its against the spirit of the game to make someone prove their claim is at least plausible.

Yeah, but "plausible" is whether it's plausible for me to be vanilla or plausible to be a sweeper monk, not whether it's plausible to have a PM written in 3rd person, or by a 9 year old girl, or whatever is the latest version of this situation

Quote from RafaelK

cpe watching me on a night HE was doing the kill was pretty clutch, I must admit. So was Niv following through and killing cpe last night (if I was him I don't think I would have, since if cpe is scum and kills Niv, cpe is going to be lynched the next day anyway for not dying).

So was Tilde being pretty much the one person who would investigate as dodgy to buy us the day we needed, although we gave ourselves maximum opportunity there. I'm very happy about making the call to kill Vampyr when we did.

OTOH, how unlucky was poor Ged?

Timing is everything sometimes.
Ouch! Ged did get plastered.

Quote from andelijah

Meh, I was really looking for anything to convince other people that you were the right lynch. Since I really couldn't think of a way to write such a sentence, I asked about it, figuring you wouldn't be able to either. It wasn't really a way to tell if you were lying about your role or not, just if you were lying about having a gender or not. I don't feel its against the spirit of the game to make someone prove their claim is at least plausible.

I was surprised that was not made into a bigger point. That's why I used it against Treigit. If I had been him I certainly would have persued that point as the only, really odd piece of information that was netted from his three question claim.

Quote from RafaelK

Yeah, but "plausible" is whether it's plausible for me to be vanilla or plausible to be a sweeper monk, not whether it's plausible to have a PM written in 3rd person, or by a 9 year old girl, or whatever is the latest version of this situation

On the contrary. I feel its against the spirit of the game wonder "did the mod put a 'sweeper monk' into the game?" rather than "Is it plausible (or even possible) to have a pm written in third person without gender." The former is gaming the mod. The latter proves whether you were telling the truth or not. You should be responsible for everything you say/claim, not for what the mod may or may not have included in the game.

Quote from andelijah

On the contrary. I feel its against the spirit of the game wonder "did the mod put a 'sweeper monk' into the game?" rather than "Is it plausible (or even possible) to have a pm written in third person without gender." The former is gaming the mod. The latter proves whether you were telling the truth or not. You should be responsible for everything you say/claim, not for what the mod may or may not have included in the game.

Why do you feel it is against the spirit of the game to wonder if the mod put a particular role in the game?
As long as there is no quoting or close paraphrasing of a role pm I think that that is a legitimate line of speculation.
I agree completely with you regarding a players responsibility for the information they post, role related or otherwise.

Quote from HAWKEYE7

Why do you feel it is against the spirit of the game to wonder if the mod put a particular role in the game?
As long as there is no quoting or close paraphrasing of a role pm I think that that is a legitimate line of speculation.
I agree completely with you regarding a players responsibility for the information they post, role related or otherwise.

Not really a particular role, but rather a particular flavor. So asking "did the mod put a sweeper monk" in the game is against the spirit of the game, because you have no reason not to believe he did, and are going to lynch a player solely on the fact that you doubt their name anyways. A non-scum example would be Alx's question about WoD's flavor being the wrong country, which would be a horrible reason to vote someone.

I don't see how "wrong country" (if that had been correct, which it wasn't) is worse than "wrong tense".

Flavour is something the mod has put into the game deliberately, and screwed-up flavour is often an example of someone lying (although it can also be an example of the mod trying to screw people up).

The tense PMs are written in is not intended to be something used to determine whether or not someone's PM is true. This is the reason for the rule against quoting PMs, and for stunts like the "9 year old girl" trick that some mods do deliberately to discourage use of PM wording to determine town or mafia.

I didn't pursue it beyond that one question because it was adequately answered, ans I also had been unable to imagine it before. Also, it had nothing to do with what I was after. I feel really popular with those night actions, it's what, 4 times in a row I was investigated.

Also, my play was atrocious (more so than usual) this game, I'm surprised I was allowed to live that long, (I certainly would have lynched me).

Grats to the Mafia, Esp Hawk, who I read as incredibly townish (I have no idea why).

Alx, and Ande were also spot on all game, well done both of you.

I was really annoyed that the mafia redirector was able to "trump" my roleblock, to be perfectly honest.

I don't see why this happened - as all Loran's power did was "redirect" mine, while mine was "he can't use" his.

But that in mind.

Great game fade. Despite later game screwups by the town (I, like everyone, watched, eyes popping out of my head in rage, as the town voted to no lynch) it was an interesting setup.

I think my number one favourite twist was Niv's role. Had he NOT killed CPE, the game was still winnable - but I still believe that role was awesome, and I'm going to be very annoyed if the role i get in your next game isn't as cool as that.

Quote from Wuffles_II

I was really annoyed that the mafia redirector was able to "trump" my roleblock, to be perfectly honest.

I don't see why this happened - as all Loran's power did was "redirect" mine, while mine was "he can't use" his.

But that in mind.

Great game fade. Despite later game screwups by the town (I, like everyone, watched, eyes popping out of my head in rage, as the town voted to no lynch) it was an interesting setup.

I think my number one favourite twist was Niv's role. Had he NOT killed CPE, the game was still winnable - but I still believe that role was awesome, and I'm going to be very annoyed if the role i get in your next game isn't as cool as that.

To be fair, we didnt have an RB, so our redirecter was essentially a weak version of that role (weak because we couldnt redirect someone to themselves).

So i think in the interest of fairness fade had the Redirector act first.

But seriously, there was no way did i expect my redirection to work.....otherwise we'd have blocked someone else and killed a noncop looking for the doc. Instead we sent in the kill on a cop thinking, hey, we should be RBed, so it probably wont matter!

Yeah, I really protected Raf. I figured that given our track record, you guys might assume I was trying to set him up on my way out the door. Pod's play in DotA (mentioning the mafia recruiting idea) was the inspiration for it, really.

Really interesting setup - fun to play and read along.

Good work, guys.

Oh well.... I wish could've nailed Hawkeye night 6 but..

Good game Fade..

I find it a tad strange that Tilde gained the killing ability in order to avenge the death of his brother, yet the only one immune to that kill was ... the killer of his brother.

Actually, Raf was Vampyr's killer.

I was aware of the possibility that Hawkeye would kill one of the masons, which meant that the only way the remaining mason could win was to get him lynched. I considered that acceptable, though, since I was trying to make things difficult for the mason pair.

Overall, I think the setup came out okay, though if I had to do it again, I would probably spend more time smoothing out certain interactions.

Yeah, it was me that Tilde had to get. It was certainly possible that it could have been Hawkeye, but even had that been the case I agreed with fade that requiring a mafia member to be lynched is not exactly the world's worst most unfair win condition. The town is trying to do that anyway.