Nah, I'm pretty thick-skinned. And Grak has some frustrations to work out too, after putting a good deal of time into the game, so I'd like to make sure we come to an agreement on what exactly went wrong with the game, and for what reasons.
Because while a number of the concepts in the game were flawed in application, it's possible that some of the them weren't inherently flawed conceptually and simply needed more oversight and fixing.
I remember that when I submitted Sin City, I turned to Vesuvan on MT for review of the final draft, which was instrumental in helping to tweak things out. This time, the process was accelerated due to Matrix skipping ahead a slot in the queue due to absences, and I didn't have much time to get the final setup reviewed. That probably would have given me the impetus to do those types of minor tweaks prior to the game, to fix Cyan, make Hvir's role more intelligible, make limbo more interactive, etc.
I have to agree with Az that Niv was not hidden at all - we as a town simply failed to put the pieces together. Between the existence of CM, the special limbo rules, SorryGuy's replacement, and the existence of an outside player in Sin City, we should have come to the reasonable conclusion that the Mafia possibly had a teammate outside the game. And because CM had an ability while outside the game, it stands to reason that the extra Mafia could also have an ability, which potentially includes performing the mafia kill.
I have no problem with the CM and Niv roles. As Az said, they were not *unbalancing* factors, even though they did cause a lot of confusion. Sure, the game could've been more stable without them, but their inclusion definitely didn't break the game.
I think my only issues with the game design were the traitor role and Hvir's PM not explicitly stating that it involved profile locations. I might also have a problem with the cult, but since that died so quickly I don't really know how it would've normally played out.
If everyone had chosen to wear Smith Avatars (in an attempt to prevent any further Night-killing) what would have happened? Would the game have ended and the Cult suddenly been victorious? Would it have continued, but with the Cult now considered a "winner" as well? Or did Kraj's chance of winning die with him?
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I don't know about Kraj, but when he died and I returned to normal, Az informed me that I could win either with the town or when everyone adopted the avatar. I was never told if the game would end immediately, though.
If everyone had chosen to wear Smith Avatars (in an attempt to prevent any further Night-killing) what would have happened? Would the game have ended and the Cult suddenly been victorious? Would it have continued, but with the Cult now considered a "winner" as well? Or did Kraj's chance of winning die with him?
The original design called for the game ending in a cult victory. Kraj was theoretically still capable of winning long after his death so long as the cult win condition remained a secret, and the cult recruits and the leader did not reveal it.
To prevent an accidental loss due to the avatars, I built in a number of safeguards. The biggest was that the special effects of the avatar would remain secret until the town had enough information to be able to anticipate the possible dangers of adopting the avatar, through observing the activity of the cult. From there, Hawkeye's role, and players' natural suspension of the avatars after seeing the cult in action were meant to keep that win condition in check.
I guess I'm a bit backwards from most everyone else as I had more of a problem with Niv's role than Cyan's.
The lact of any sort of confirmation of there being a scum in limbo is what got me. Sure, CM was there, but are we guranteed the setup would be symmectrical? I wasn't making that assumption. And with Dagger having the Smith av on and other people not having it, that left the door open to suspecting other people. Yes some things seemed implausible, but the possibility was still there. Lacking a reasonable mention of Niv's role would be the only criticism I had for the game.
As for Cyan, Az posted in the game rules that flavor, while not overriding, still mattered. Reading that and then comparing kill M.O's is what gave me confidence in going after Cyan. True, Axel had reasons to disagree and disbelieve, but if another townie was left alive instead of Axel, I believe that Cyan would have been lynched and there wouldn't have been a problem. Not that I'm blaming Axel for the loss, he had every reason to hold out, just as I did at the end of DotA. That's just the way the game goes.
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I honestly think that all the griping and whining about how the game played out is crazy. Yes it's nice to win, yes it's good to be right, but jeez, no one is losing their livelihoods or such over it. I don't know about everyone else, but I play because I have loads of fun playing. Win, lose or blowout, it's a game. Once you start making it more than that, you're taking it way too seriously.
As for all the negative criticism being heaped on Az, it makes no sense to me. If you had a problem with the game, say your peace, be nice about it and let it go at that. Make the suggestions that you think should be made so that Az can evaluate and apply next time. Beating him over the head with the same stuff again and again doesn't seem to be the best way to do it.
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PM me if you have any to trade or sell.
Games finished:17
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Town/Mafia/Other - 13/2/2
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Ye have enemies? Good, good - it means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life. - Elminster of Shadowdale
If Niv counted against the town win condition, it would have been a huge problem that he couldn't be lynched. As is, he was mostly harmless.
It was a problem anyways! He was scum and we couldn't kill him! Regardless of how he counts towards the win, he's inherantly a bad role!
Quote from Azrael »
Hidden? The limbo mechanic was not hidden at all, the interaction of abilities from limbo with abilities in the game was public knowledge in the first post, and Niv was even more exposed after the SG replacement completely blew his cover.
Except we couldn't interact with them! We could not talk to niv to analyze him. We coudl not see how others interacted with niv. We had NO ABILITY TO PLAY MAFIA WITH NIV.
Quote from Azrael »
They were a matter of discussion, and I've come to the conclusion that the disinformation was inherently unfun, but not unbalanced. It didn't alter the lynch decision on any of the players.
Did you learn nothing from LGN? Disinformation is not just unfun. It's unbalanced. Period. It's been proven. It's not longer a subject for debate or discussion. We KNOW it's unbalancing because it's been tested and shown to be so.
Quote from Azrael »
You realize that there was no kill on the night Dagger wore an avatar, right (the night Cyan was converted)?
There WAS a kill. It was by Niv on Cyan. Cyan said he was killed.
Quote from Azrael »
And nobody even questioned if the avatar could have forced Dagger to shift plans or miss a kill?
So now you DO want us to make decisions based on actions? Your schitzophrenic. You design a game so that we can't make decisions based on actions (kills from limbo, flowers from limbo, etc) and then you want us to trust the avatar as an information source, all the while, you have a trap built into the avatars?
Stop playing both sides. It's bad game design.
Quote from Azrael »
Dagger's wearing the Smith avatar and Niv submitting the kill didn't throw off the town's analysis in the slightest, because no one even tried to make the most obvious connection of all, between Dagger's avvie and a lack of a kill.
Except that the next night we had a kill with Dagger wearing the avatar. Which completely ruined any arguments along those lines. And we even discussed that. *I* even discussed that.
So again, it absolutly did affect the game.
Quote from Azrael »
There was no real connection in fact, but the town even missed that possible interaction, so I really don't think that Niv performing the kill can be blamed for the town's failing to nail Dagger.
Then you're wrong and you're making excuses for yourself now. Which is a shame. It's easier just to admit it was a mistake.
Quote from Azrael »
I don't have any plans to. But, I don't think the problem with them was balance at all, I see it more as an interactivity/fun-based problem.
Again, you're wrong. But frankly, what matters is that other mods dont' see this and think "wow, I liked that, i want to do the same thing only take it a step further."
It's not just unfun, it's unbalancing.
You could play this setup 20 times and everytime Cyan was converted the town would lose.
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I honestly think that all the griping and whining about how the game played out is crazy. Yes it's nice to win, yes it's good to be right, but jeez, no one is losing their livelihoods or such over it. I don't know about everyone else, but I play because I have loads of fun playing. Win, lose or blowout, it's a game. Once you start making it more than that, you're taking it way too seriously.
As for all the negative criticism being heaped on Az, it makes no sense to me. If you had a problem with the game, say your peace, be nice about it and let it go at that. Make the suggestions that you think should be made so that Az can evaluate and apply next time. Beating him over the head with the same stuff again and again doesn't seem to be the best way to do it.
Nah, I'm pretty thick-skinned. And Grak has some frustrations to work out too, after putting a good deal of time into the game, so I'd like to make sure we come to an agreement on what exactly went wrong with the game, and for what reasons.
Because while a number of the concepts in the game were flawed in application, it's possible that some of the them weren't inherently flawed conceptually and simply needed more oversight and fixing.
I remember that when I submitted Sin City, I turned to Vesuvan on MT for review of the final draft, which was instrumental in helping to tweak things out. This time, the process was accelerated due to Matrix skipping ahead a slot in the queue due to absences, and I didn't have much time to get the final setup reviewed. That probably would have given me the impetus to do those types of minor tweaks prior to the game, to fix Cyan, make Hvir's role more intelligible, make limbo more interactive, etc.
Vesuvan is the worst possible person to review this kind of game.
He suffers from MASSIVE mod ego. He wants the game to be more important than playing the game.
Players > Mods.
edit:
Quote from Vamp »
As for all the negative criticism being heaped on Az, it makes no sense to me. If you had a problem with the game, say your peace, be nice about it and let it go at that. Make the suggestions that you think should be made so that Az can evaluate and apply next time. Beating him over the head with the same stuff again and again doesn't seem to be the best way to do it.
Az and I have been playing mafia together a long time. We both like mafia theory. Discussions on theory are valuable to us. THere are no hurt feelings here and no one is mad. So, let us argue. It's good times.
The lact of any sort of confirmation of there being a scum in limbo is what got me. Sure, CM was there, but are we guranteed the setup would be symmectrical? I wasn't making that assumption. And with Dagger having the Smith av on and other people not having it, that left the door open to suspecting other people. Yes some things seemed implausible, but the possibility was still there. Lacking a reasonable mention of Niv's role would be the only criticism I had for the game.
You shouldn't need a confirmation of the role - the strong possibility of it is enough that the town should consider it.
This partly comes back to the idea of role analysis vs. player analysis. If the town had followed through with the analysis of Dagger's play rather than relying too much on things like the avatar supposedly stopping the kill (which doesn't even matter if there are indeed 2 scum left), he would've been caught as scum.
By the way, Axel, I'm curious - if you believed that either there was 1 scum left or that there were 2 and they had to be Dagger+Grakthis, why didn't you choose to lynch Dagger first? Is it just because Grakthis was getting on your nerves?
Az and I have been playing mafia together a long time. We both like mafia theory. Discussions on theory are valuable to us. THere are no hurt feelings here and no one is mad. So, let us argue. It's good times.
Obviously, I'm not aware of the depth of friendship and respect between the two of you, so if it's deep and high, then I retract what I said. It's just your statements are coming across, to me at least, that your grouching over spilled milk. If it's not, then I retract my statements and apologize for my words.
You shouldn't need a confirmation of the role - the strong possibility of it is enough that the town should consider it.
It was considered, multpile times, by multiple people. I know I voted limbo people at 3 times, Grak did so on at least two occasions. It was considered, but the lack of a way to affect/touch/grasp the role I guess is what I see as the problem.
This partly comes back to the idea of role analysis vs. player analysis. If the town had followed through with the analysis of Dagger's play rather than relying too much on things like the avatar supposedly stopping the kill (which doesn't even matter if there are indeed 2 scum left), he would've been caught as scum.
Yeah, and this is what I feel bad about. I feel it was my unwillingness to go after Dagger, and being the only voting confirmed townie, that lead Grak and Axel away from Dagger.
But, the same problem would have occured if Dagger was lynched. Obviously I'd be dead and everyone would continue to ignore the flavor of the Terminator kills. And Grak would have been lynched. Or at least that's how I saw things playing out.
By the way, Axel, I'm curious - if you believed that either there was 1 scum left or that there were 2 and they had to be Dagger+Grakthis, why didn't you choose to lynch Dagger first? Is it just because Grakthis was getting on your nerves?
If there was 1 scum: up until the last Day I was thinking Dagger or Grakthis. Then, the whole "you can't kill while wearing the Avatar" thing was clarified, and suddenly Dagger became a whole lot less likely. So that leaves Grakthis. Unless Cyan is a sleeper scum role.
If 2 scum left: that re-opened the possibility for Dagger to be scum, but then Grakthis still had to be scum with him. Grakthis being the common denominator between these two scenarios.
Lynching the one role we were almost certain could not have done the kill just didn't seem like a sane option. But I guess it was insane times at the end.
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Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
It was a problem anyways! He was scum and we couldn't kill him! Regardless of how he counts towards the win, he's inherantly a bad role!
It was not impossible to neutralize Niv. He was already mostly neutralized, but there were a number of other ways that Niv could have been taken out of consideration. But because the effect that Niv was having on the game was not overriding, I disagree with the idea that it would be vital for the health of the game to be able to take him out.
Quote from Grakthis »
Except we couldn't interact with them! We could not talk to niv to analyze him. We coudl not see how others interacted with niv. We had NO ABILITY TO PLAY MAFIA WITH NIV.
Which was unfun, but because he was a small enough threat not to be able to concretely affect the game, it was not vital that the town be able to interact with him within the thread. It would have given the town interactivity, but it was never strictly necessary.
Although, it should be noted that due to abilities like Charm_master's and Dagger's, it was quite possible to get input from him at any stage of the game.
Quote from Grakthis »
Did you learn nothing from LGN? Disinformation is not just unfun. It's unbalanced. Period. It's been proven. It's not longer a subject for debate or discussion. We KNOW it's unbalancing because it's been tested and shown to be so.
That depends upon what the misinformation does. If the misinformation leads to mislynches or miskills, it's an unbalancing problem. If it merely creates confusion, it is not.
Quote from Grakthis »
There WAS a kill. It was by Niv on Cyan. Cyan said he was killed.
Unless I'm misremembering, Cyan only claimed to have been targeted by a kill once, the night he was killed by CP. The night that Dagger targeted him, he naturally never claimed to be killed.
If he had claimed to have been targeted by a second kill, the town would have wondered why he wasn't dead, since his second life was used up. And that was the night that Dagger wore the avatar, and the night the kill inexplicably went missing.
Quote from Grakthis »
So now you DO want us to make decisions based on actions? Your schitzophrenic. You design a game so that we can't make decisions based on actions (kills from limbo, flowers from limbo, etc) and then you want us to trust the avatar as an information source, all the while, you have a trap built into the avatars?
Stop playing both sides. It's bad game design.
The avatar was not a trap. It was a valid source of information. But it was not a valid way of shutting down the mafia kill.
As Fadeblue argued, it was possible to use the publically available information about limbo and intuit that a mafia member could exist there, could be sending flowers, and could even conceivably send a kill.
Quote from Grakthis »
You could play this setup 20 times and everytime Cyan was converted the town would lose.
Hyperbole. Even in this scenario, there was ample room for Cyan to be lynched and the town to win. Either through analysis, or through abilities.
The conversion was an error, and it was unbalancing, and it was many other things, but it was not impossibly difficult to overcome.
EDIT:
Vesuvan didn't review the final draft of Matrix, the final draft was rushed into production without final review. Vesuvan reviewed Sin City.
This partly comes back to the idea of role analysis vs. player analysis. If the town had followed through with the analysis of Dagger's play rather than relying too much on things like the avatar supposedly stopping the kill (which doesn't even matter if there are indeed 2 scum left), he would've been caught as scum.
Because look at the scenario....
the only plausible 2 scum scenario was Axelrod + Cyan. No one else was connected in anyway.
We actually discussed that... atleast, Axelrod and I did.
Either the two of them were scum, or Dagger was scum. The plausibility of any other combo simply didn't make any sense.
We believed the plausibility of a scum role in limbo, for sure, but we didn't believe that a scum role in limbo could submit kills.
There was some room to reach that conclusion, however, since it was made clear that abilities could be exchanged between limbo and the players. A different, radically new MO could also have indicated that conclusion through process of elimination and due to the considerable suspicion that Niv's role existed.
It was not impossible to neutralize Niv. He was already mostly neutralized, but there were a number of other ways that Niv could have been taken out of consideration. But because the effect that Niv was having on the game was not overriding, I disagree with the idea that it would be vital for the health of the game to be able to take him out.
Except that he could still submit kills!
Quote from Azrael »
Which was unfun, but because he was a small enough threat not to be able to concretely affect the game, it was not VITAL that the town be able to interact with him within the thread.
It was VITAL. It's the entire point of mafia!
Quote from Azrael »
I would not, however, that due to abilities like Charm_master's and Dagger's, it was quite possible to get input from him at any stage of the game.
Input via talk abilities at night does not replace day posting.
Quote from Azrael »
That depends upon what the misinformation does. If the misinformation leads to mislynches or miskills, it's an unbalancing problem. If it merely creates confusion, it is not.
No. It still is. Misinformation that messes up analysis is inherantly unbalancing. It's like saying because you tackled the WR at the 3 yard line therefore it didn't affect the passing play. Because, you know, the ball was thrown to the entire other side of the field.
Sure, but you don't know what would have happened if the WR hadn't been tackled. He might have been open.
You don't know where the analysis might have lead us if it hadn't been full of misinformation.
Quote from Azrael »
Unless I'm misremembering, Cyan only claimed to have been targeted by a kill once, the night he was killed by CP. The night that Dagger targeted him, he naturally never claimed to be killed.
If he had claimed to have been targeted by a second kill, the town would have wondered why he wasn't dead, since his second life wasn't used up. And that was the night that Dagger wore the avatar, and the night the kill inexplicably went missing.
Wait, what? I thought Cyan was only killed once by the mafia and that was what turned him?
Quote from Azrael »
The avatar was not a trap. It was a valid source of information. But it was not a valid way of shutting down the mafia kill.
It was a trap. The avatar says it stops kill abilities, but it doesn't actually stop the mafia kill and use of it by the town results in a cult win. That's a textbook mafia trap.
Quote from Azrael »
As Fadeblue argued, it was possible to use the publically available information about limbo and intuit that a mafia member could exist there, could be sending flowers, and could even conceivably send a kill.
And yet a thread full of reasonably smart people couldn't figure it out. Possibly <> plausible.
Quote from Azrael »
Hyperbole. Even in this scenario, there was ample room for Cyan to be lynched and the town to win. Either through analysis, or through abilities.
The conversion was an error, and it was unbalancing, and it was many other things, but it was not impossibly difficult to overcome.
Nothing is impossible to overcome. But ti odds of it are so small that it wouldn't happen very often.
If the town makes the RIGHT statistical plays, the town loses. That's bad game design. I don't know how you can get around that. If Axelrod is town, you cannot lynch Cyan. The mafia will never go after the T1000 early because they have no incentive to. They will either go after him late or will not go after him at all. Late game, the cop is NEVER alive, if he is, the game is already over. Therefore, the T1000 can only logically be converted in the late game after he's either verified town because his protection occured and was verified by Axelrod, or because a cop verified him, or because Axelrod is dead (lynched maybe) and verified town.... either way, it's bad for the town.
And if the T1000 dies and shows up scum after he's verified, it tricks the town into mislynching John Conner.
So, in summary, the town is punished for making the wrong play and the nightmare scenario is not only PLAUSIBLE but it's PROBABLE
There was some room to reach that conclusion, however, since it was made clear that abilities could be exchanged between limbo and the players. A different, radically new MO could also have indicated that conclusion through process of elimination and due to the considerable suspicion that Niv's role existed.
Anyone who trusts kill MO's as a weapon for catching scum is going to lose 90% of the time.
The vast majority of mods will not make that a deciding factor. In fact, I would argue that good game design should make a chance in person comitting the kill completely indistinguishable.
So again, you're punishing the town for doing what is statistically the right play. We decided to focus on players and roles and not on mod scenes.
But, the same problem would have occured if Dagger was lynched. Obviously I'd be dead and everyone would continue to ignore the flavor of the Terminator kills. And Grak would have been lynched. Or at least that's how I saw things playing out.
This is why the *traitor* role is the one that was unbalanced, not Niv's.
If 2 scum left: that re-opened the possibility for Dagger to be scum, but then Grakthis still had to be scum with him. Grakthis being the common denominator between these two scenarios.
Fair enough. From my perspective, it was Dagger that was the common denominator, as Grakthis had proved to me throughout the game that he was town.
the only plausible 2 scum scenario was Axelrod + Cyan. No one else was connected in anyway.
We actually discussed that... atleast, Axelrod and I did.
Either the two of them were scum, or Dagger was scum. The plausibility of any other combo simply didn't make any sense.
We believed the plausibility of a scum role in limbo, for sure, but we didn't believe that a scum role in limbo could submit kills.
I'm not sure what you're arguing. Whether or not Niv existed, if you had lynched Dagger, then the game is over if Cyan isn't a traitor. Like I said, that's why it's the *traitor* role that's broken, not Niv's.
Lynching the mafia standing in the path of your victory is the point of the game, yes. Lynching players who are hostile to you but outside the game is not, necessarily.
Quote from Grakthis »
Input via talk abilities at night does not replace day posting.
But since Niv was outside the game, the importance of dialogue with him was decreased, proportionally.
Quote from Grakthis »
No. It still is. Misinformation that messes up analysis is inherantly unbalancing. It's like saying because you tackled the WR at the 3 yard line therefore it didn't affect the passing play. Because, you know, the ball was thrown to the entire other side of the field.
Sure, but you don't know what would have happened if the WR hadn't been tackled. He might have been open.
You don't know where the analysis might have lead us if it hadn't been full of misinformation.
This is why I'm emphaszing the effect of the disinformation. In your example, the disinformation had a clear effect that helped prevent the tackle or lynch of the ball carrier.
In this example, the 'disinformation' had no effect on anyone's lynch or lack of lynch.
It was simply a question mark, something unexplained. Your argument is also a bit off-base because you're labelling a lack of knowledge as disinformation. A void doesn't lead people astray. It simply fails to help them.
Quote from Grakthis »
Wait, what? I thought Cyan was only killed once by the mafia and that was what turned him?
No, he was targeted twice. During the daykill attempt, Cyan kept his life.
The mafia targeted him once with a kill using CP, then a second time, using Niv. He was only a traitor after the first attack.
Quote from Grakthis »
It was a trap. The avatar says it stops kill abilities, but it doesn't actually stop the mafia kill and use of it by the town results in a cult win. That's a textbook mafia trap.
...?
The avatar says it stops all kill abilities from the person wearing it. And it did.
That's not disinformation. That's the players failing to draw the correct conclusion from the reliable information they've been given.
Quote from Grakthis »
Nothing is impossible to overcome. But ti odds of it are so small that it wouldn't happen very often.
I heartily disagree. On mathematical grounds, it was difficult, but not extraordinarily.
On analysis grounds, it was difficult, but not extraordinarily.
There was room for a town to reasonably overcome it 3-4 times out of ten.
I'm not sure what you're arguing. Whether or not Niv existed, if you had lynched Dagger, then the game is over if Cyan isn't a traitor. Like I said, that's why it's the *traitor* role that's broken, not Niv's.
Both roles were broken.
We wouldn't have lynched Dagger that last day BECAUSE of Niv being able to kill even when Dagger couldn't.
Lynching the mafia standing in the path of your victory is the point of the game, yes. Lynching players who are hostile to you but outside the game is not, necessarily.
But when those players outside of the game are making it hard to lynch people in the game...
Quote from Azrael »
But since Niv was outside the game, the importance of dialogue with him was decreased, proportionally.
Sure. But not to 0.
Quote from Azrael »
This is why I'm emphaszing the effect of the disinformation. In your example, the disinformation had a clear effect that helped prevent the tackle or lynch of the ball carrier.
But I am saying you can't be sure.
Quote from Azrael »
In this example, the 'disinformation' had no effect on anyone's lynch or lack of lynch.
Sure it did. Look at what Axelrod just said above!
Quote from Azrael »
It was simply a question mark, something unexplained. Your argument is also a bit off-base because you're labelling a lack of knowledge as disinformation. A void doesn't lead people astray. It simply fails to help them.
Xyre got lynched due to a lack fo knowledge. Lack of knowledge is often disinformation.
Also, the flowers caused people to make poor theories on mafia behavior. As did the avatar. As did the missing nightkills.
No information where there should be information IS information.
Quote from Axelrod »
No, he was targeted twice. During the daykill attempt, Cyan kept his life.
The mafia targeted him once with a kill using CP, then a second time, using Niv. He was only a traitor after the first attack.
Wait... why did Niv target him with a kill after he was already mafia?
Quote from Azrael »
The avatar says it stops all kill abilities from the person wearing it. And it did.
That's not disinformation. That's the players failing to draw the correct conclusion from the reliable information they've been given.
Are you a politician? We had a vote on our ballot today that was advertised by the proponents as "Vote yes for libraries!" but it was really "Vote yes for an entirely new organization branch that will tax you and fund libraries."
Your not selling me a used car, Az.
How were we, plausibly, supposed to guess that someone outside of the game was killing? Seriously. Think about this.
If presented with "Dagger is town" or "Dagger is scum and someone outside of the game was submiting the kill!" how were we PLAUSIBLY supposed to decide on the later?
Quote from Azrael »
I heartily disagree. On mathematical grounds, it was difficult, but not extraordinarily.
On analysis grounds, it was difficult, but not extraordinarily.
There was room for a town to reasonably overcome it 3-4 times out of ten.
Not a chance. Dude, Axelrod and myself were both there at the end of the game and so was Vamp. EASILY 3 of the better players in this game.
Are you telling me an end game with 3 other townies might have had a better chance?!?
Quote from Azrael »
That depends on the moderator's style. I have a tradition of providing consistently identifiable and marginally useful MOs.
But did you say that? If not, players are going to go with the PROBABLISTIC play.
We wouldn't have lynched Dagger that last day BECAUSE of Niv being able to kill even when Dagger couldn't.
And even if you hadn't, you would've been lynched instead, leaving Dagger to be lynched on the day after (which didn't happen only because of Cyan). On the next day, with no other options, I'm sure the town would've correctly lynched a sole Dagger scum, regardless of the avatar.
You and Vampyr had both already analyzed Dagger and found him scummy. But because the town put too much weight on the avatar, they ignored the player analysis and instead lynched the one player that (I felt) was the most townish throughout the whole game.
And even if you hadn't, you would've been lynched instead, leaving Dagger to be lynched on the day after (which didn't happen only because of Cyan). On the next day, with no other options, I'm sure the town would've correctly lynched a sole Dagger scum, regardless of the avatar.
You and Vampyr had both already analyzed Dagger and found him scummy. But because the town put too much weight on the avatar, they ignored the player analysis and instead lynched the one player that (I felt) was the most townish throughout the whole game.
Peopoe ignored my analysis on Dagger long before the avatar was relevant ;_;
I didn't have enough credibility here to push it through like I would have at MT.
grak, give it a freaking break. It didnt take much for me to realize that sorryguy (and later chamber/Niv) had a role like mine, and probably against the town. IIRC, I pointed it out D3. That role made things confusing and aggrivating, but not broken.
If the terminator is converted, yes, the mafia gains a HUGE tempo swing. However, there are enough roles that have the possibility of nailing Cyan in the endgame.
the role was swingy, but it didn't kill the game. let it go.
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grak, give it a freaking break. It didnt take much for me to realize that sorryguy (and later chamber/Niv) had a role like mine, and probably against the town. IIRC, I pointed it out D3. That role made things confusing and aggrivating, but not broken.
If the terminator is converted, yes, the mafia gains a HUGE tempo swing. However, there are enough roles that have the possibility of nailing Cyan in the endgame.
the role was swingy, but it didn't kill the game. let it go.
Azrael and I are having a conversation. When he wants to stop, he'll let me know. If you have nothing to contribute, go away.
If that really is a "conversation" then why don't you take it to PM? That way the rest of us can still talk about the game, if we choose, without having to wade through your rantings.
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Hey, you! Yeah, you behind the computer screen! You're unconstitutional.
Asking Grak to "let go" of something is like asking a Pit Bull to "let go" of that thick, juicy steak he's got in his jaws.
I think, with a little distance, he'll come to appreciate the game more. I already do. The Cyan thing was hard to accept, but most of the other elements were extremely creative. The Niv role was potentially another source of grief, but as it happened, that role did not end up being especially relevant to the actual game played.
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Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Asking Grak to "let go" of something is like asking a Pit Bull to "let go" of that thick, juicy steak he's got in his jaws.
Stop telling them about me. It removes the challenge
Quote from Axelrod »
I think, with a little distance, he'll come to appreciate the game more. I already do. The Cyan thing was hard to accept, but most of the other elements were extremely creative. The Niv role was potentially another source of grief, but as it happened, that role did not end up being especially relevant to the actual game played.
Oh, I said a few times now... I enjoyed my time in the game. It was spoiled by the ending, but at the time I was enjoying it.
And I like every role he put in the game EXCEPT the Cyan and Niv roles.
But when those players outside of the game are making it hard to lynch people in the game...
Because of faulty analysis.
Quote from Grakthis »
Sure. But not to 0.
But it wasn't zero. They could be reached using Dagger, Charm, or the Oracle.
Quote from Grakthis »
But I am saying you can't be sure.
Yeah. But I didn't see it playing a major role in any of the cases.
Quote from Grakthis »
Sure it did. Look at what Axelrod just said above!
That he was looking for two scum?
Quote from Grakthis »
Xyre got lynched due to a lack fo knowledge. Lack of knowledge is often disinformation.
Also, the flowers caused people to make poor theories on mafia behavior. As did the avatar. As did the missing nightkills.
No information where there should be information IS information.
Your argument is flawed by definition first and foremost (no information != information), and also in conception.
Lack of knowledge creates the opportunity for people to make mistakes.
Knowledge that is faulty or incomplete can lead people down a wrong path.
What happened here, was a lack of knowledge, not incomplete knowledge.
Quote from Grakthis »
Wait... why did Niv target him with a kill after he was already mafia?
He wasn't mafia yet. When CP targeted Cyan, he was townie. He lost a life. On his second life, he had the potential to be a traitor. Then, Niv killed him, and converted him onto the mafia side.
Quote from Grakthis »
How were we, plausibly, supposed to guess that someone outside of the game was killing? Seriously. Think about this.
They weren't outside the game, and the town knew they were there.
Quote from Grakthis »
Not a chance. Dude, Axelrod and myself were both there at the end of the game and so was Vamp. EASILY 3 of the better players in this game.
Are you telling me an end game with 3 other townies might have had a better chance?!?
Yes. The town had a good group of players, but a different group of good players looking at the game from a different angle could easily have reached a different conclusion.
Quote from Grakthis »
But did you say that? If not, players are going to go with the PROBABLISTIC play.
It was common knowledge for natives of the site, after Sin City, which was read almost universally.
And it was fairly clear in the kill methods here, as well. (The superficial scratches from Atlseal, the double shot from the twins, etc.)
What?! Look at the initial post; he is dead. Deceased. Kaputt. Indefinitely horizontal. In mafia games, you see, people are occasionally "killed off," and when that sad event occurs, he or she is no longer allowed to post, on account of rigor mortis and what-have-you.
'Welcome to Mafia Salvation', it said, 'Population: 3,660.' And someone, they never figured out who, had painted on the sign in red letters: '1,831 to lynch.'
Main problem was the Cyan role, both because of the double life (grossly unfair to the SK and not even very fun for the mafia) and the recruit (the only way to pick it up was kill flavour, and there was no guarantee he'd even do the mafia kill- come to that, what if he'd been investigated by Pod earlier and announced as town?).
Secondary problem was even when the town went looking for a hidden mafia role, they weren't "allowed" to find it. I agree the town were given all the tools to realise it could be there, but when people were trying to vote for a hidden mafioso and weren't able to, that made it hard for them.
I'm also not a fan at all of the mechanic of the avatar blocking kill and vote abilities, but it was worth a try. I think this game might have worked better with the mafia getting a daykill and a nightkill and with no SK (and a couple of roles changed a bit to fit).
But it wasn't zero. They could be reached using Dagger, Charm, or the Oracle.
Yeah. But I didn't see it playing a major role in any of the cases.
That he was looking for two scum?
Your argument is flawed by definition first and foremost (no information != information), and also in conception.
Lack of knowledge creates the opportunity for people to make mistakes.
Knowledge that is faulty or incomplete can lead people down a wrong path.
What happened here, was a lack of knowledge, not incomplete knowledge.
He wasn't mafia yet. When CP targeted Cyan, he was townie. He lost a life. On his second life, he had the potential to be a traitor. Then, Niv killed him, and converted him onto the mafia side.
They weren't outside the game, and the town knew they were there.
Yes. The town had a good group of players, but a different group of good players looking at the game from a different angle could easily have reached a different conclusion.
It was common knowledge for natives of the site, after Sin City, which was read almost universally.
And it was fairly clear in the kill methods here, as well. (The superficial scratches from Atlseal, the double shot from the twins, etc.)
Without responding to your individual points simply because we're starting to go in circles, here is what you need to realize.
The town was in its best case scenario. Its best analysts were alive. They had lynched all of the scum except one, who was under heavy pressure, and another who was unlynchable. All of the key townies were confirmed in some matter.
And yet, inspite of all of this, the Cyan and Niv roles were enough to win the game for the scum.
That is 100% proof positive that you are wrong and those two roles were unbalancing. The town put itself in an overWHELMING position of power and those two roles DIRECTLY caused the town to lose.
There is no defense you can make here. It happened. We watched it happen. It's a recorded fact. Those two roles unbalanced the game.
The town was in a commanding position up until day five.
At that point, the town began to stray from the tactics which had been fueling their success. They were no longer in their ideal scenario. Their townie kill rate climbed precipitously. After the town reduced their once-formiddable lead to a 3v2 scenario, it lost. Not because the mafia outplayed the town, but because the scenario provided an unusually small margin of error for townie error, and there was a signficant amount of townie error as the game wound down.
Second, I would definitely dispute that Niv was largely responsible for the town's loss. He was a small contributing factor, not a landslide force by any stretch.
And again, I would not dispute that Cyan was unbalancing. I think your depiction of how unbalancing he was, however, is substantially exaggerated.
True story: as we were lynching Xyre, I felt Cyan was agreeing with me a little too easily. This suspiciously reminded me of 24, where he just hung to the coattails of others' arguments as scum. Then I went back and reread some day 1-3 stuff... "nah, no way Cyan is scum! That's a town Cyan if I ever saw one!"
Little did I know I was actually right on both counts...
The town was in a commanding position up until day five.
At that point, the town began to stray from the tactics which had been fueling their success. They were no longer in their ideal scenario. Their townie kill rate climbed precipitously. After the town reduced their once-formiddable lead to a 3v2 scenario, it lost. Not because the mafia outplayed the town, but because the scenario provided an unusually small margin of error for townie error, and there was a signficant amount of townie error as the game wound down.
But error is OK. We were in a dominant position. Like I said, we could have lynched at random and won.
It's like when you're ahead in a magic game, you play differently. You play not to lose instead of playing to win. This isn't bad... this is smart.
You try to set yourself up for the best endgame you possibly can.
Quote from Azrael »
Second, I would definitely dispute that Niv was largely responsible for the town's loss. He was a small contributing factor, not a landslide force by any stretch.
Ok, but if you admit he was a contributing factor... then that's enough. Let me put it this way... if Niv did NOT exist, do you think the chances of the town lynching Dagger would have increased? Yes or no.
Quote from Azrael »
And again, I would not dispute that Cyan was unbalancing. I think your depiction of how unbalancing he was, however, is substantially exaggerated.
Ok. Well, I don't care if we agree how unbalancing Cyan was. As long as you agree his inclusion was a mistake and other people understand that his role was a mistake, I don't care if people say "big mistake" or "little mistake." The key is that other mods will see "mistake."
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Whoops, sorry.
I'm starting to feel bad now, maybe you should give Azrael a break, Grakthis. I'm sure he'll learn from this game.
Because while a number of the concepts in the game were flawed in application, it's possible that some of the them weren't inherently flawed conceptually and simply needed more oversight and fixing.
I remember that when I submitted Sin City, I turned to Vesuvan on MT for review of the final draft, which was instrumental in helping to tweak things out. This time, the process was accelerated due to Matrix skipping ahead a slot in the queue due to absences, and I didn't have much time to get the final setup reviewed. That probably would have given me the impetus to do those types of minor tweaks prior to the game, to fix Cyan, make Hvir's role more intelligible, make limbo more interactive, etc.
I have no problem with the CM and Niv roles. As Az said, they were not *unbalancing* factors, even though they did cause a lot of confusion. Sure, the game could've been more stable without them, but their inclusion definitely didn't break the game.
I think my only issues with the game design were the traitor role and Hvir's PM not explicitly stating that it involved profile locations. I might also have a problem with the cult, but since that died so quickly I don't really know how it would've normally played out.
The original design called for the game ending in a cult victory. Kraj was theoretically still capable of winning long after his death so long as the cult win condition remained a secret, and the cult recruits and the leader did not reveal it.
To prevent an accidental loss due to the avatars, I built in a number of safeguards. The biggest was that the special effects of the avatar would remain secret until the town had enough information to be able to anticipate the possible dangers of adopting the avatar, through observing the activity of the cult. From there, Hawkeye's role, and players' natural suspension of the avatars after seeing the cult in action were meant to keep that win condition in check.
The lact of any sort of confirmation of there being a scum in limbo is what got me. Sure, CM was there, but are we guranteed the setup would be symmectrical? I wasn't making that assumption. And with Dagger having the Smith av on and other people not having it, that left the door open to suspecting other people. Yes some things seemed implausible, but the possibility was still there. Lacking a reasonable mention of Niv's role would be the only criticism I had for the game.
As for Cyan, Az posted in the game rules that flavor, while not overriding, still mattered. Reading that and then comparing kill M.O's is what gave me confidence in going after Cyan. True, Axel had reasons to disagree and disbelieve, but if another townie was left alive instead of Axel, I believe that Cyan would have been lynched and there wouldn't have been a problem. Not that I'm blaming Axel for the loss, he had every reason to hold out, just as I did at the end of DotA. That's just the way the game goes.
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I honestly think that all the griping and whining about how the game played out is crazy. Yes it's nice to win, yes it's good to be right, but jeez, no one is losing their livelihoods or such over it. I don't know about everyone else, but I play because I have loads of fun playing. Win, lose or blowout, it's a game. Once you start making it more than that, you're taking it way too seriously.
As for all the negative criticism being heaped on Az, it makes no sense to me. If you had a problem with the game, say your peace, be nice about it and let it go at that. Make the suggestions that you think should be made so that Az can evaluate and apply next time. Beating him over the head with the same stuff again and again doesn't seem to be the best way to do it.
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It was a problem anyways! He was scum and we couldn't kill him! Regardless of how he counts towards the win, he's inherantly a bad role!
Except we couldn't interact with them! We could not talk to niv to analyze him. We coudl not see how others interacted with niv. We had NO ABILITY TO PLAY MAFIA WITH NIV.
Did you learn nothing from LGN? Disinformation is not just unfun. It's unbalanced. Period. It's been proven. It's not longer a subject for debate or discussion. We KNOW it's unbalancing because it's been tested and shown to be so.
There WAS a kill. It was by Niv on Cyan. Cyan said he was killed.
So now you DO want us to make decisions based on actions? Your schitzophrenic. You design a game so that we can't make decisions based on actions (kills from limbo, flowers from limbo, etc) and then you want us to trust the avatar as an information source, all the while, you have a trap built into the avatars?
Stop playing both sides. It's bad game design.
Except that the next night we had a kill with Dagger wearing the avatar. Which completely ruined any arguments along those lines. And we even discussed that. *I* even discussed that.
So again, it absolutly did affect the game.
Then you're wrong and you're making excuses for yourself now. Which is a shame. It's easier just to admit it was a mistake.
Again, you're wrong. But frankly, what matters is that other mods dont' see this and think "wow, I liked that, i want to do the same thing only take it a step further."
It's not just unfun, it's unbalancing.
You could play this setup 20 times and everytime Cyan was converted the town would lose.
Yaaay.
Vesuvan is the worst possible person to review this kind of game.
He suffers from MASSIVE mod ego. He wants the game to be more important than playing the game.
Players > Mods.
edit:
Az and I have been playing mafia together a long time. We both like mafia theory. Discussions on theory are valuable to us. THere are no hurt feelings here and no one is mad. So, let us argue. It's good times.
You shouldn't need a confirmation of the role - the strong possibility of it is enough that the town should consider it.
This partly comes back to the idea of role analysis vs. player analysis. If the town had followed through with the analysis of Dagger's play rather than relying too much on things like the avatar supposedly stopping the kill (which doesn't even matter if there are indeed 2 scum left), he would've been caught as scum.
By the way, Axel, I'm curious - if you believed that either there was 1 scum left or that there were 2 and they had to be Dagger+Grakthis, why didn't you choose to lynch Dagger first? Is it just because Grakthis was getting on your nerves?
Obviously, I'm not aware of the depth of friendship and respect between the two of you, so if it's deep and high, then I retract what I said. It's just your statements are coming across, to me at least, that your grouching over spilled milk. If it's not, then I retract my statements and apologize for my words.
It was considered, multpile times, by multiple people. I know I voted limbo people at 3 times, Grak did so on at least two occasions. It was considered, but the lack of a way to affect/touch/grasp the role I guess is what I see as the problem.
Yeah, and this is what I feel bad about. I feel it was my unwillingness to go after Dagger, and being the only voting confirmed townie, that lead Grak and Axel away from Dagger.
But, the same problem would have occured if Dagger was lynched. Obviously I'd be dead and everyone would continue to ignore the flavor of the Terminator kills. And Grak would have been lynched. Or at least that's how I saw things playing out.
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If there was 1 scum: up until the last Day I was thinking Dagger or Grakthis. Then, the whole "you can't kill while wearing the Avatar" thing was clarified, and suddenly Dagger became a whole lot less likely. So that leaves Grakthis. Unless Cyan is a sleeper scum role.
If 2 scum left: that re-opened the possibility for Dagger to be scum, but then Grakthis still had to be scum with him. Grakthis being the common denominator between these two scenarios.
Lynching the one role we were almost certain could not have done the kill just didn't seem like a sane option. But I guess it was insane times at the end.
It was not impossible to neutralize Niv. He was already mostly neutralized, but there were a number of other ways that Niv could have been taken out of consideration. But because the effect that Niv was having on the game was not overriding, I disagree with the idea that it would be vital for the health of the game to be able to take him out.
Which was unfun, but because he was a small enough threat not to be able to concretely affect the game, it was not vital that the town be able to interact with him within the thread. It would have given the town interactivity, but it was never strictly necessary.
Although, it should be noted that due to abilities like Charm_master's and Dagger's, it was quite possible to get input from him at any stage of the game.
That depends upon what the misinformation does. If the misinformation leads to mislynches or miskills, it's an unbalancing problem. If it merely creates confusion, it is not.
Unless I'm misremembering, Cyan only claimed to have been targeted by a kill once, the night he was killed by CP. The night that Dagger targeted him, he naturally never claimed to be killed.
If he had claimed to have been targeted by a second kill, the town would have wondered why he wasn't dead, since his second life was used up. And that was the night that Dagger wore the avatar, and the night the kill inexplicably went missing.
The avatar was not a trap. It was a valid source of information. But it was not a valid way of shutting down the mafia kill.
As Fadeblue argued, it was possible to use the publically available information about limbo and intuit that a mafia member could exist there, could be sending flowers, and could even conceivably send a kill.
Hyperbole. Even in this scenario, there was ample room for Cyan to be lynched and the town to win. Either through analysis, or through abilities.
The conversion was an error, and it was unbalancing, and it was many other things, but it was not impossibly difficult to overcome.
EDIT:
Vesuvan didn't review the final draft of Matrix, the final draft was rushed into production without final review. Vesuvan reviewed Sin City.
Because look at the scenario....
the only plausible 2 scum scenario was Axelrod + Cyan. No one else was connected in anyway.
We actually discussed that... atleast, Axelrod and I did.
Either the two of them were scum, or Dagger was scum. The plausibility of any other combo simply didn't make any sense.
We believed the plausibility of a scum role in limbo, for sure, but we didn't believe that a scum role in limbo could submit kills.
Except that he could still submit kills!
It was VITAL. It's the entire point of mafia!
Input via talk abilities at night does not replace day posting.
No. It still is. Misinformation that messes up analysis is inherantly unbalancing. It's like saying because you tackled the WR at the 3 yard line therefore it didn't affect the passing play. Because, you know, the ball was thrown to the entire other side of the field.
Sure, but you don't know what would have happened if the WR hadn't been tackled. He might have been open.
You don't know where the analysis might have lead us if it hadn't been full of misinformation.
Wait, what? I thought Cyan was only killed once by the mafia and that was what turned him?
It was a trap. The avatar says it stops kill abilities, but it doesn't actually stop the mafia kill and use of it by the town results in a cult win. That's a textbook mafia trap.
And yet a thread full of reasonably smart people couldn't figure it out. Possibly <> plausible.
Nothing is impossible to overcome. But ti odds of it are so small that it wouldn't happen very often.
If the town makes the RIGHT statistical plays, the town loses. That's bad game design. I don't know how you can get around that. If Axelrod is town, you cannot lynch Cyan. The mafia will never go after the T1000 early because they have no incentive to. They will either go after him late or will not go after him at all. Late game, the cop is NEVER alive, if he is, the game is already over. Therefore, the T1000 can only logically be converted in the late game after he's either verified town because his protection occured and was verified by Axelrod, or because a cop verified him, or because Axelrod is dead (lynched maybe) and verified town.... either way, it's bad for the town.
And if the T1000 dies and shows up scum after he's verified, it tricks the town into mislynching John Conner.
So, in summary, the town is punished for making the wrong play and the nightmare scenario is not only PLAUSIBLE but it's PROBABLE
Anyone who trusts kill MO's as a weapon for catching scum is going to lose 90% of the time.
The vast majority of mods will not make that a deciding factor. In fact, I would argue that good game design should make a chance in person comitting the kill completely indistinguishable.
So again, you're punishing the town for doing what is statistically the right play. We decided to focus on players and roles and not on mod scenes.
This is why the *traitor* role is the one that was unbalanced, not Niv's.
Fair enough. From my perspective, it was Dagger that was the common denominator, as Grakthis had proved to me throughout the game that he was town.
I'm not sure what you're arguing. Whether or not Niv existed, if you had lynched Dagger, then the game is over if Cyan isn't a traitor. Like I said, that's why it's the *traitor* role that's broken, not Niv's.
So long as another member of the mafia was alive.
Lynching the mafia standing in the path of your victory is the point of the game, yes. Lynching players who are hostile to you but outside the game is not, necessarily.
But since Niv was outside the game, the importance of dialogue with him was decreased, proportionally.
This is why I'm emphaszing the effect of the disinformation. In your example, the disinformation had a clear effect that helped prevent the tackle or lynch of the ball carrier.
In this example, the 'disinformation' had no effect on anyone's lynch or lack of lynch.
It was simply a question mark, something unexplained. Your argument is also a bit off-base because you're labelling a lack of knowledge as disinformation. A void doesn't lead people astray. It simply fails to help them.
No, he was targeted twice. During the daykill attempt, Cyan kept his life.
The mafia targeted him once with a kill using CP, then a second time, using Niv. He was only a traitor after the first attack.
...?
The avatar says it stops all kill abilities from the person wearing it. And it did.
That's not disinformation. That's the players failing to draw the correct conclusion from the reliable information they've been given.
I heartily disagree. On mathematical grounds, it was difficult, but not extraordinarily.
On analysis grounds, it was difficult, but not extraordinarily.
There was room for a town to reasonably overcome it 3-4 times out of ten.
That depends on the moderator's style. I have a tradition of providing consistently identifiable and marginally useful MOs.
Both roles were broken.
We wouldn't have lynched Dagger that last day BECAUSE of Niv being able to kill even when Dagger couldn't.
But when those players outside of the game are making it hard to lynch people in the game...
Sure. But not to 0.
But I am saying you can't be sure.
Sure it did. Look at what Axelrod just said above!
Xyre got lynched due to a lack fo knowledge. Lack of knowledge is often disinformation.
Also, the flowers caused people to make poor theories on mafia behavior. As did the avatar. As did the missing nightkills.
No information where there should be information IS information.
Wait... why did Niv target him with a kill after he was already mafia?
Are you a politician? We had a vote on our ballot today that was advertised by the proponents as "Vote yes for libraries!" but it was really "Vote yes for an entirely new organization branch that will tax you and fund libraries."
Your not selling me a used car, Az.
How were we, plausibly, supposed to guess that someone outside of the game was killing? Seriously. Think about this.
If presented with "Dagger is town" or "Dagger is scum and someone outside of the game was submiting the kill!" how were we PLAUSIBLY supposed to decide on the later?
Not a chance. Dude, Axelrod and myself were both there at the end of the game and so was Vamp. EASILY 3 of the better players in this game.
Are you telling me an end game with 3 other townies might have had a better chance?!?
But did you say that? If not, players are going to go with the PROBABLISTIC play.
And even if you hadn't, you would've been lynched instead, leaving Dagger to be lynched on the day after (which didn't happen only because of Cyan). On the next day, with no other options, I'm sure the town would've correctly lynched a sole Dagger scum, regardless of the avatar.
You and Vampyr had both already analyzed Dagger and found him scummy. But because the town put too much weight on the avatar, they ignored the player analysis and instead lynched the one player that (I felt) was the most townish throughout the whole game.
Peopoe ignored my analysis on Dagger long before the avatar was relevant ;_;
I didn't have enough credibility here to push it through like I would have at MT.
If the terminator is converted, yes, the mafia gains a HUGE tempo swing. However, there are enough roles that have the possibility of nailing Cyan in the endgame.
the role was swingy, but it didn't kill the game. let it go.
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Play IRC mafia. (/join #mafia)
Asking Grak to "let go" of something is like asking a Pit Bull to "let go" of that thick, juicy steak he's got in his jaws.
I think, with a little distance, he'll come to appreciate the game more. I already do. The Cyan thing was hard to accept, but most of the other elements were extremely creative. The Niv role was potentially another source of grief, but as it happened, that role did not end up being especially relevant to the actual game played.
Stop telling them about me. It removes the challenge
Oh, I said a few times now... I enjoyed my time in the game. It was spoiled by the ending, but at the time I was enjoying it.
And I like every role he put in the game EXCEPT the Cyan and Niv roles.
Because of faulty analysis.
But it wasn't zero. They could be reached using Dagger, Charm, or the Oracle.
Yeah. But I didn't see it playing a major role in any of the cases.
That he was looking for two scum?
Your argument is flawed by definition first and foremost (no information != information), and also in conception.
Lack of knowledge creates the opportunity for people to make mistakes.
Knowledge that is faulty or incomplete can lead people down a wrong path.
What happened here, was a lack of knowledge, not incomplete knowledge.
He wasn't mafia yet. When CP targeted Cyan, he was townie. He lost a life. On his second life, he had the potential to be a traitor. Then, Niv killed him, and converted him onto the mafia side.
They weren't outside the game, and the town knew they were there.
Yes. The town had a good group of players, but a different group of good players looking at the game from a different angle could easily have reached a different conclusion.
It was common knowledge for natives of the site, after Sin City, which was read almost universally.
And it was fairly clear in the kill methods here, as well. (The superficial scratches from Atlseal, the double shot from the twins, etc.)
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Secondary problem was even when the town went looking for a hidden mafia role, they weren't "allowed" to find it. I agree the town were given all the tools to realise it could be there, but when people were trying to vote for a hidden mafioso and weren't able to, that made it hard for them.
I'm also not a fan at all of the mechanic of the avatar blocking kill and vote abilities, but it was worth a try. I think this game might have worked better with the mafia getting a daykill and a nightkill and with no SK (and a couple of roles changed a bit to fit).
Without responding to your individual points simply because we're starting to go in circles, here is what you need to realize.
The town was in its best case scenario. Its best analysts were alive. They had lynched all of the scum except one, who was under heavy pressure, and another who was unlynchable. All of the key townies were confirmed in some matter.
And yet, inspite of all of this, the Cyan and Niv roles were enough to win the game for the scum.
That is 100% proof positive that you are wrong and those two roles were unbalancing. The town put itself in an overWHELMING position of power and those two roles DIRECTLY caused the town to lose.
There is no defense you can make here. It happened. We watched it happen. It's a recorded fact. Those two roles unbalanced the game.
At that point, the town began to stray from the tactics which had been fueling their success. They were no longer in their ideal scenario. Their townie kill rate climbed precipitously. After the town reduced their once-formiddable lead to a 3v2 scenario, it lost. Not because the mafia outplayed the town, but because the scenario provided an unusually small margin of error for townie error, and there was a signficant amount of townie error as the game wound down.
Second, I would definitely dispute that Niv was largely responsible for the town's loss. He was a small contributing factor, not a landslide force by any stretch.
And again, I would not dispute that Cyan was unbalancing. I think your depiction of how unbalancing he was, however, is substantially exaggerated.
Little did I know I was actually right on both counts...
But error is OK. We were in a dominant position. Like I said, we could have lynched at random and won.
It's like when you're ahead in a magic game, you play differently. You play not to lose instead of playing to win. This isn't bad... this is smart.
You try to set yourself up for the best endgame you possibly can.
Ok, but if you admit he was a contributing factor... then that's enough. Let me put it this way... if Niv did NOT exist, do you think the chances of the town lynching Dagger would have increased? Yes or no.
Ok. Well, I don't care if we agree how unbalancing Cyan was. As long as you agree his inclusion was a mistake and other people understand that his role was a mistake, I don't care if people say "big mistake" or "little mistake." The key is that other mods will see "mistake."