MTG Salvation

Quote from Matjoeman

I no longer wish Abandon Hope to reveal info, he was probably running one of those D1 conversation starter gambit things. So whatever.

There's nothing wrong with attempting such a gambit, but when someone calls you on it you do not proceed to lie and be evasive.

And Ged, you're completely wrong about the merits of claiming Vanilla.

* It cannot make your claim "more likely to be accepted" to claim vanilla early or the scum would do it too.
* Mafia always hit townies at night, so if the vanilla claim is genuine you're helping the Mafia to find better targets.
* If the vanilla claim is not genuine you're lying to the town. Do you know what we typically do to liars? Besides which it's a terrible way to hide even as a power role because it spotlights you.

Yuan-ti has made some scummy posts. But really his play is just bad more than scummy and he seems like a classic day one mislynch.

Also, whilst Forgotten One was a bit incautious I second Chimpanzee's point about the fact he flagged up the "lynch -1" situation. It's still unwise, because a simultaneous post could have lynched, but that's at least very unlikely.

FoS: LookingForReality for not applying his "scums on the wagon" argument to Yuan-Ti's much larger and faster wagon.

I think Forgotton One has demonstrated suspicous activity in the -1 to lynch post. I can't see his action as definitive proof of anti town sentiment. I can understand eagerness for action in the face of suspicous activity. I think we can agree that YuanTi's posts could move a townie to recklessness.

FoS: LookingForReality for not applying his "scums on the wagon" argument to Yuan-Ti's much larger and faster wagon.

I didn't say I thought there were scum on AH's wagon because it grew quickly and was large. I'm not opposed to wagons; I'm opposed to wagons that I spot scum on. I felt Yuanti and Zion were scum before the wagon was popular.

Quote from LookingforReality

I'm not opposed to wagons; I'm opposed to wagons that I spot scum on.

I thought the argument was that they were scum because they were on the wagon?

I felt Yuanti and Zion were scum before the wagon was popular.

On what basis?

I don't like the "my intuition is so awesome" style of play. It's a great way to generate mislynches and stifle analysis.

Quote from bateleur

And Ged, you're completely wrong about the merits of claiming Vanilla.

* It cannot make your claim "more likely to be accepted" to claim vanilla early or the scum would do it too.
* Mafia always hit townies at night, so if the vanilla claim is genuine you're helping the Mafia to find better targets.
* If the vanilla claim is not genuine you're lying to the town. Do you know what we typically do to liars? Besides which it's a terrible way to hide even as a power role because it spotlights you.

I can't see it making your claim too much less likely to be accepted. I pointed out the second part myself. If the claim isn't genuine, then the claimer is, indeed, dumb and we'll lynch them.

I still think someone reckless could see it as worth it for the conversation.

Quote from FO »

Yuan Ti has 7 votes by my count. It is 9 to lynch.

Yuan Ti is scum. Ziontie and Apokalypse Kid are right behind him. Ged wouldn't surprise me one bit if he is scum as well.

Unvote, Vote: Yuan Ti

That's lynch -1 folks.

This looks more like a call for a lynch than a flag for being careful. Whatever he said later, it came across as wanting to lynch and lynch now.

Quote from FO »

It's actually quite obvious to me that Yuan Ti is scum. You saw it enough to have a vote on him, didn't you? Oh wait, you're scum, too... You were just voting for him to appear like a townie, and now that he's close to being going to be lynched, you are jumping all over the person who is putting your scum buddy at lynch minus one. (read the preceeding sentence with an ounce of sarcasm, but a pound of truth).

If I was really trying to "get in a quick lynch", why would I bother putting down and making it quite explicit that he would be at lynch minus one after my vote???

To let people know they can hammer.

Even at that, if it is 10 to lynch, then me putting the 8th vote on him is even less of this monumental deal you are making it out to be.

If you thought it was lynch -1, then looking at your actions as if it were is completely appropriate.

But I expect nothing less from Yuan Ti's scumbuddy.

If I really need to do a PBPA on Yuan Ti, then so be it. I can probably do it tomorrow. In the meantime, I'll be expecting more overreactions from you and an OMGUS bandwagon vote from Yuan Ti to further prove what the town already knows...

The way he addresses people as though he knows they're scum just rubs me the wrong way. He did it in the last post, too. He doesn't give many reasons, but his assertions are apparently certainties.

So: acting as if he's proven people are scum without giving (many) reasons, looking like he was calling for a quick lynch, and, yes, just generally acting obnoxious. There's where my vote came from.

If the town would rather I just leave this until tomorrow, I'm ok with letting this hang and lynching YuanTi (hahaha).

Quote from bateleur

I thought the argument was that they were scum because they were on the wagon?

Part of it. That still doesn't mean I should be suspicious of the Yuanti wagon.

I don't like the "my intuition is so awesome" style of play. It's a great way to generate mislynches and stifle analysis.

Posting long analysis about every person you find scummy will end up simply leading the town in circles. If every player did, we would get so much information we couldn't sift through it. Part of playing well is choosing who to analyze and who to say nothing about.

Quote from Ged

If the town would rather I just leave this until tomorrow

I see no reason not to discuss all possible cases as and when they come up. Whilst day one lynches don't have a very good hit rate when it comes to bagging scum it's often possible to look back at day one in the late game and bag scums based on how they played early on. From that perspective, the more (relevant) discussion the better.

Quote from Zas »

Also LJustus is just jumping on that wagon - for the record.

I may appear to be 'jumping on the wagon', but would you rather I repeat all of the scummy things YT has done before I vote? He claims to be experienced, but makes classic scum tells so early in the game. If he's town, it's as if he's trying to get lynched for some reason.

This is what I meant to post when the site was down, I'm copying+pasting it. I'll come back later (tonight) and catch up on the past few pages

[before]
@Puzzle, I flossed over the first few random-pages (which to me was pretty much up to around 100) and did not take note of what AH said. When you put the link up to AH's posts, post 96 took me to post 72, and I did not realize that it took me to the wrong post (I just assumed AH was being a smartass or something). Now that I know he's not joking, I don't really know what he's trying to do. It doesn't seem like a scum-move to me, as there's really no benefit that I can see. Thus, I don't agree with his wagon. Whatever he did, he did for a reason most likely, and I'm giving him the benefit of doubt right now.

My vote on YuanTi comes from the way he was posting in his first few pages. I'll go back and elaborate on it tonight probably (need to finish up some assignments).
[/before]

It doesn't seem like a scum-move to me, as there's really no benefit that I can see.

Which is why nobody's proposing lynching him unconditionally for it.

However, the other thing Abandon Hope has done is to say stuff amounting to "don't bother asking me about this, I do as I please". It is this behaviour which needs addressing. Again, not by lynching him, but by putting him in a position where he is forced to properly explain himself.

If he didn't want to explain himself, he shouldn't have posted an unprompted claim in the first place.

Quote from YuanTi

1. Should I reveal role and all or leave as is?

You mean, besides Vanilla townie?

Quote from YuanTi

I probably said somewhere only noob games. Where did I say I was experienced? I am 100% sure that never happened.

Apologies. I misread an exchange between you and tanarin. Still, the other scummy things you've done make up for that.

Well I don't mean offense yuan, but you still look incredibly scummy. It may be that you're right, we're both still newbs in many respects. But even when you insist on getting info from a claimed townie it doesn't make you seem better. I just need to adjust to this higher level of mafia gaming and thinking if I am to play this correctly, because I'm making newb mistakes still and having them pointed out. But the main thing yuan, is that I keep getting linked to you for whatever reason and there's little explanation. It's true that I wanted you lynched, but I also wanted input before that, and it seems that everything is either being ignored or taken out of context. So I guess you're right, if you turn up scum I am screwed, and what gets me about that is it won't help catch anyone. I believe your claim, though no one's going to care for my opinion, I'm apparently scum buddies with you for no reason.

1. They both attacked the "wagon" on AH (which was nowhere near lynch status) and did not explain why apart from "I think there may be scum on it." I'm pretty sure thats not a reason for accusing someone of being Mafia, so why is it for attacking a Wagon.

This doesn't make any sense to me.

2. They ignored Bate and Puzzle, and started attacking Zionite and myself. The primary reason I can see for this is the knowledge that we're both new to non newb games, and to take advantage of our various scumtells.

I've had to say this over and over again. Let me clarify for the last time:
I didn't think Zion and Yuan were scum because of the AH wagon. I felt they were scum before the AH wagon and their jump on the AH wagon suggested to me that it was a bad wagon.

LfR quickly unvoted after FO voted, again trying to look irresponsible.

I'm not voting you. Why, then, am I responsible to your lynch? I'm not trying to look irresponsible, I simply am.

Quote from YuanTi

Did you mention it, ever?

See Post 145 and 152. LfR explicitly states his suspicion of both you and Zionite. This is very consistent with what he was saying regarding the AH wagon previously.

We need a smiley digging itself into a hole. It would be inserted here...

Quote from YuanTi

Its perfectly clear English. You seem to be making a habit of not understanding what is said against you.

He's on to us!

But I'm still pretty sure that this:

Quote from YuantiBefore »

I'm pretty sure thats not a reason for accusing someone of being Mafia, so why is it for attacking a Wagon.

Doesn't make any sense.

In the situation you were responsible due to the vast ammount of effort you put into setting this up.

If you assume that every player on your wagon can't think for themselves.

You see, now I am becoming very suspisious of you YuanTi. Ever since I called you on the math, you have gotten sloppier and sloppier. Now I am willing to say it may be because you are still somewhat new, but I am almost sure you lied about your claim and are hiding yout true role. Now if this is Mafia or SK I dunno. It may even be a pro-town role and now things have backfired.

@FO: I am also wary of you. You seemed to invite a speed vote in order to get YuanTi out. Now the vote count may of been an honest mistake, but this can also be seen as scummy, because youy may be inviting a straggler in your group to vote him out before he unvotes, or even someone who has a voter restriction that only allows him to do lynch votes (Forget the role name.) So who to place my vote on...

Unvote; FOS: YuanTi and FO

I'm holding off my vote for now. There are still too many questions in my mind to say either way.

Quote from tanarin

@FO: I am also wary of you. You seemed to invite a speed vote in order to get YuanTi out.

There was much more going on with the Yuan Ti wagon that meets the eye. Several of his scum buddies were on that wagon. There was no way they were going to stay on once I proclaimed him at lynch minus one. He was most definitely in no danger of being speedlynched. I'm also quite convinced I'm right, so if someone else did hammer him I would have had no qualms about it whatsoever.

Quote from tanarin »

Now the vote count may of been an honest mistake, but this can also be seen as scummy,...

The vote count thing was a mistake, but it doesn't matter. You may consider my vote the 9th vote on a 10 to lynch vote if you wish. I made no effort to hide the fact that I intended to put him at lynch minus one. If that's scummy, then I don't know how we ever get anyone lynched, ever.

The obvious rebuttal to that is "But we wanted to have more discussion about it." Well then, discuss it. We already have his vanilla claim. We have multiple instances of scummy posting and behavior. If you read the thread, you can see multiple instances of Yuan Ti, AK, Zionite, and to lesser extent Ged all jumping around trying to distance themselves from one another while at the same time pushing scummy bandwagons against you and AH and attempting (poorly) to look townish. If you want to discuss that, please go ahead.

Quote from tanarin »

...because youy may be inviting a straggler in your group to vote him out before he unvotes, or even someone who has a voter restriction that only allows him to do lynch votes (Forget the role name.)

There is almost a zero likelyhood that such a role exists.

Quote from Forgotten One »

Several of his scum buddies were on that wagon.

Quote from Forgotten One »

If you read the thread, you can see multiple instances of Yuan Ti, AK, Zionite, and to lesser extent Ged all jumping around trying to distance themselves from one another

This is the kind of discussion we have after we've lynched someone and learned their alignment. Trying to pick out entire scum teams after less than one day of discussion is just asking to end up with pie on your face.

On the one hand, FO's behavior exhibits a disturbing amount of certainty and eagerness, but on the other hand, Yuan Ti's not really getting any less scummy. I think my vote's staying where it is for now.

Quote from bateleur

There's nothing wrong with attempting such a gambit, but when someone calls you on it you do not proceed to lie and be evasive.

Lying and being evasive could be considered part of the gambit though. It's an interesting topic on whether or not these gambits are acceptable and to what extent, but I'm content with leaving him alone for now.

Yuan-Ti's long post seems to show more newbness (Not understanding early D1 gambits, wagoning) than anything else. Rereading I came to the same conclusion, there isn't enough scumminess (non-newbiness) to warrant my vote.

For now I'll stick with FO.

Quote from Forgotten One

There is almost a zero likelyhood that such a role exists.

Just a point here there is such a role, it's called the Actor. But I will admit even I would be suprised if it was being used here.


As for what to do...As much as my gut tells me that YuanTi is not an innocent, I feel safer with him alive right now as opposed to you. Then again, I feel you are not a direct threat to myself or anyone else as well. So I will stay undecied until I see some sort of tip off.

P.S. Can we get an updated vote count? I am just curious as to where everyone stands vote wise.

... Even though 4 votes moved since the last one...

Tanarin's Very Own Special Vote Count:
Abandon Hope 2 (Bateleur, Zas)
Arimnaes 2 (Faerie Lord, YuanTi)
YuanTi 6 (MMOD, Arim, Chimp, Faeran, FO, Ljustus)
Tanarin 2 (Apok Kid, Ged)
ApokKid 1 (AH)
FO 3 (LFR, Zionite, MJM)

Not Voting: Axelrod, Puzzle, Tanarin

Still 19 alive, 10 to lynch

Quote from Puzzle »

Dear MMoD,
I do not understand why it takes you so long to explain why voted YuanTi. Why haven't you put that in a few sentences in the PM to Jobie ? It wouldn't have taken any longer than saying "I just missed #96".
Best regards,

Puzzle.

Because I have to go and search out his posts and link to them? That takes more time then just posting on the fly.

I don't like holding off more on this YuanTi thing that I mentioned, but it will have to wait until later today as it is 12:40 in the morning and I have classes in the morning.

@Bat: The thing is, as I believe AH had his reasons, I don't agree with pushing him for that information at this time. MJM sums up what I think very nicely.

Quote from mystery meat of doom

The thing is, as I believe AH had his reasons, I don't agree with pushing him for that information at this time.

You believe this why, exactly? Because of his previous play in other games? Because of your faith in his fine, moral character?

Let's be absolutely clear on something: Mafia is a strategy game. Yes, psychology plays a large part - as it does in poker. Taking wild guesses? Not so much, that's just bad play. You know nothing about Abandon Hope (unless you're masons, in which case he has already lied). If you want to argue that he shouldn't discuss this issue further your opinions are no good, you must do so via clear, rational argument.

MJM sums up what I think very nicely.

If by that you mean: MJM mirrors your attitude very nicely then yes, he does indeed.

*Reads rule 2.*

Unvote Tanarin.
Vote Forgotten One.

Quote from Ged

*Reads rule 2.*

Unvote Tanarin.
Vote Forgotten One.

It's a request, it isn't required.

Quote from bateleur

You believe this why, exactly? Because of his previous play in other games? Because of your faith in his fine, moral character?

So are you saying that he didn't have any reasons and posted randomly? Of course he had his reasons for doing what he did. I don't know what they are, but it does not seem like a scum-move. If it was role-related (which it shouldn't considering he claimed vanilla), then him saying what he did is not an indicator of scum/town (though the way he acted regarding what he did is, but what he's posted is inconclusive to me). If he did this as a gambit, or a discussion starter, it has drawn attention to him, and I do not believe that it was a mafia-move, as I see pretty much no gain from it. The one gain is that people like me will see this as a non-scum move, and thus he is a bit more town in my books.

Let's be absolutely clear on something: Mafia is a strategy game. Yes, psychology plays a large part - as it does in poker. Taking wild guesses? Not so much, that's just bad play. You know nothing about Abandon Hope (unless you're masons, in which case he has already lied). If you want to argue that he shouldn't discuss this issue further your opinions are no good, you must do so via clear, rational argument.

Wild guesses? Please. I've gave a reason before for my thinking, now I've elaborated on it.

I don't see how you get off calling (my) opinions no good. My argument consists of multiple opinions. Strategically I believe that it was not a scum move based on reasons I stated above. What? Believe? That's an opinion. It's not valid then? In a mafia game, there are facts (votes, quotes, etc) and then there are opinions based on those facts and these opinions based on those facts, when put together coherently, are arguments.

If by that you mean: MJM mirrors your attitude very nicely then yes, he does indeed.

If he mirrors my attitude on the AH subject, then he is saying things along the same lines as me, and therefore me thinking that his posts are summing up what I think nicely is perfectly valid.

Quote from mystery meat of doom

So are you saying that he didn't have any reasons and posted randomly?

No, of course not.

But when you say "he had reasons", you are implicitly saying "he had valid reasons". As far as I'm aware there are no possible valid reasons, which is why this needs pursuing.

Of course he had his reasons for doing what he did. I don't know what they are, but it does not seem like a scum-move.

Someone needs to sig that. That's a classic!

The one gain is that people like me will see this as a non-scum move, and thus he is a bit more town in my books.

I don't see how you get off calling (my) opinions no good.

I'm not saying opinions are no good, I'm saying they're no substitute for rational argument.

Strategically I believe that it was not a scum move based on reasons I stated above.

Putting the word strategically at the start of your sentence in italics does not make it any more relevant.

Strategically, I like chocolate donuts!

See what I did there?

In a mafia game, there are facts (votes, quotes, etc) and then there are opinions based on those facts and these opinions based on those facts, when put together coherently, are arguments.

So no room for inference at all in your world view? Well, I suppose that explains a few things!

But just for clarity, in this situation a useful defence of Abandon Hope would consist of a comment along the lines of: "It can be correct play to claim Vanilla early in <some circumstances> because <some reason>". Or maybe "It can be correct for a townie to falseclaim vanilla when they have <some role> because <some reason>".

MMOD, that made no sense. "The only possible gain is people like me would think he's not scum". That's...I don't know the words for how stupid that is. If he could predict that people like you would react like this, then as scum, wouldn't he make this gambit and trick people like you into thinking he isn;t scum. If he's scum, and realisises some people will believe a dumb move will make him more town, wouldn't he make that move? This is assuming you're a townie, but it's very easy to construe you as scum, because you are seemingly baselessly concluding that AH is town because he made a weird play. I think that you're scum MMOD, possibly along with AH. Vote MMOD

Just sos people know, I not completely ignoring this game, but I'm not focusing on it right now either.

I have this idea that I'm going to read the thread again with "fresh" eyes and gain lots of valuable insights. That might be a bit of ptimistic thinking on day 1, but we'll see.

Quote from Apokalypse Kid

MMOD, that made no sense. "The only possible gain is people like me would think he's not scum". That's...I don't know the words for how stupid that is. If he could predict that people like you would react like this, then as scum, wouldn't he make this gambit and trick people like you into thinking he isn;t scum. If he's scum, and realisises some people will believe a dumb move will make him more town, wouldn't he make that move? This is assuming you're a townie, but it's very easy to construe you as scum, because you are seemingly baselessly concluding that AH is town because he made a weird play. I think that you're scum MMOD, possibly along with AH. Vote MMOD

Further evidence that AK is scum... To follow all of that up with a vote for MMod, and not a peep regarding AH, is so scummy its not even funny. Zas and Bataluer are refuting MMod's arguments, but the end result of their argument is that his opinion regarding AH is wrong, not that MMod is scum.

This argument reduces to this:
1. What Abandon Hope did could be scummy.
2. MMod doesn't think its scummy, and is defending AH.
3. Since AH might be scum, and MMod defended him, therefore MMod is scum...

That just puts the silly in syllogism.

At this point, I really think AH should just list his reasons (if he really had any) about why he posted an unprovoked claim. The speculation regarding his reasons has now gone past the point of providing a useful topic of discussion, and is now at the point of being a major distraction. AH, if you are Town, you'll realize that posting some reasoning behind what you did will do us some good right about now.

Quote from Forgotten One

Further evidence that AK is scum... To follow all of that up with a vote for MMod, and not a peep regarding AH, is so scummy its not even funny. Zas and Bataluer are refuting MMod's arguments, but the end result of their argument is that his opinion regarding AH is wrong, not that MMod is scum.

This argument reduces to this:
1. What Abandon Hope did could be scummy.
2. MMod doesn't think its scummy, and is defending AH.
3. Since AH might be scum, and MMod defended him, therefore MMod is scum...

That just puts the silly in syllogism.

At this point, I really think AH should just list his reasons (if he really had any) about why he posted an unprovoked claim. The speculation regarding his reasons has now gone past the point of providing a useful topic of discussion, and is now at the point of being a major distraction. AH, if you are Town, you'll realize that posting some reasoning behind what you did will do us some good right about now.

FO, way to take that out of context. I was responding to a recent post, not giving my total game recap. The argument doesn't boil down to that, it boils down to
AH did something weird that I found scummy
MMOD mysteriously calls it pro-town, and says that he thinks AH is town because of it. He goes on to say that the only possible benefit that AHs move would have as scum is convincing people like MMOD that AH is town.
I call him on that, saying that if AH as scum realized that people would react like mmod did and consider AH town, then it makes sense as a scum gambit , and I think that to consider AH town for this is so moronic as town, that MMOD is probably collaborating with AH. Becuse of this, I think MMOD is scum, because looking at this as pro-town, one cannot conclude AH is town for doing such a random play. Fos FO

FO, that's crap. I think that AK hit the hammer on the head, and as such, you attacking him in an attempt to derail the attention MMoD had been gaining is scummy to me. Vote FO

uhh...that's quite a big difference. care to explain the flipflop? I switch that big requires a Fos Yuan. I don;t think you accidentally typed AK instead of FO, and I will hold it against you as a blatant and unexplained flipflop.

Pretty confusing there yuan. What are your thoughts on AK vs. FO argument then?

I see. Thanks for the clarification.

Quote from Forgotten One

AH, if you are Town, you'll realize that posting some reasoning behind what you did will do us some good right about now.

What's the point of this? He could just say "I did it to promote discussion, and answering any more questions will be revealing unnecessary info." And he wouldn't be scummy at all for doing so.

Dude Faeren, you can't say "he did that typo on purpose, FOS." That's so unfair, and I could accuse you of being scum for trying to use it to put pressure on someone. Actually, FOS Faeren

While I don't agree with MMOD saying AH gets townie points for what he did (it's a non-tell). And AK totally overreacted. If what he said was true, that'd be the lamest scum plan ever.

It was an hour and 20 minutes later. If it was a mistake, he prolly would've seen it earlier, I think that an hour and 20 minutes with posts inbetween makes it less a mistake than an intentional reversal.

Or this scenario, he posts and then doesn't double check it. 1:20 later he sees new posts and notices the mistake, then corrects it. It'd be different if it he had waited a long time, posted in between, or if his corrected post made no sense. But he didn't.

Quote from bateleur »

But just for clarity, in this situation a useful defence of Abandon Hope would consist of a comment along the lines of: "It can be correct play to claim Vanilla early in <some circumstances> because <some reason>". Or maybe "It can be correct for a townie to falseclaim vanilla when they have <some role> because <some reason>".

I could see AH (in light of, say, his gambit in Magic Mafia) claiming vanilla townie if he actually had a power role and wanted to make himself a lower-priority target for scum nightkills. I don't think it would be a good play, personally, but it seems plausible that AH might do it.

It's also possible he has some bizarre role that causes something to happen when he's lynched, or nightkilled, or when he falseclaims, or when he otherwise fulfills some triggering event. While such a role would seem slightly complex for a normal, it's not out of the question. If he had a role of that type, he might be hoping to provoke a certain response out of the town at large, or he might just need to claim something specific, period.

Note that while the first scenario is one in which he's town, the second scenario could have him as any alignment.

That's what I can think of off the top of my head.

Quote from Apokalypse Kid

FO, way to take that out of context. I was responding to a recent post, not giving my total game recap.

What did I take out of context??? Your vote makes no sense no matter how you slice it.

The argument doesn't boil down to that, it boils down to

AH did something weird that I found scummy

To which you are entitled to your opinion on...

MMOD mysteriously calls it pro-town, and says that he thinks AH is town because of it.

To which he is also entitled his opinion on (and which I don't agree with by the way)...

He goes on to say that the only possible benefit that AHs move would have as scum is convincing people like MMOD that AH is town.

I wouldn't call it the only reason, but its not an unreasonable conclusion. The fact that you would completely overrect to it this way is the only unreasonable thing about this whole mess.

I call him on that, saying that if AH as scum realized that people would react like mmod did and consider AH town, then it makes sense as a scum gambit

...but I obviously cannot drink the wine in front of me...

, and I think that to consider AH town for this is so moronic as town, that MMOD is probably collaborating with AH. Becuse of this, I think MMOD is scum, because looking at this as pro-town, one cannot conclude AH is town for doing such a random play. Fos FO

This is what we call a false dilemma.

Correct Logic:
MMod thinks AH is Town. You think MMod is wrong. Therefore you disagree with MMod, and think AH is scum (or at a minimum think that AH isn't "obviously" Town).
Scum Logic:
MMod thinks AH is Town. You think MMod is worng. Therefore MMod is scum???? That doesn't work. At all. Especially since it requires that AH be scum (not just "not abviously-Town"), which you've never stated nor can you conclude from anything...

Quote from Faeren

FO, that's crap. I think that AK hit the hammer on the head, and as such, you attacking him in an attempt to derail the attention MMoD had been gaining is scummy to me. Vote FO

And you attacking me in an attempt to derail the attention I'm giving to AK who is trying to derail the attention from Yuan Ti isn't scummy at all... It makes no sense that you are voting for me for derailing attention from MMod when you've shown no interest or suspicion of MMod... It makes no sense that your Vote for me is predicated on MMod being scummy which is predicated on AH being scummy which is predicated on AH claiming Vanilla Town.....................

Quote from bateleur

No, of course not.

But when you say "he had reasons", you are implicitly saying "he had valid reasons". As far as I'm aware there are no possible valid reasons, which is why this needs pursuing.

Starting discussion? Role restriction? Power role gambit? I'm not saying we should not pursue this, but I'm saying we shouldn't pursue this at this time.

I'm not saying opinions are no good, I'm saying they're no substitute for rational argument.

Then you should have just said they're no subsitute for rational argument. I took it as "opinions are no good in Mafia".

Putting the word strategically at the start of your sentence in italics does not make it any more relevant.

Strategically, I like chocolate donuts!

See what I did there?

I was mirroring your use of italics, and it was not about putting strategy in the beginning of my sentence. At that time in my mind you were clearly saying that opinions were no good. I don't believe that you did not understand the point of that entire paragraph was to say that I believe you are wrong when you say that opinions are not a valid subsitute as I believe that arguments are made of opinions, so there was no need to say this in such a insulting manner.

So no room for inference at all in your world view? Well, I suppose that explains a few things!

Look, can we talk about this without adding in these insults? It's annoying to read, and I tend to insult back.

What I said about having opinions based on facts and such, to my knowledge, is basically the meaning of "to infer". We are infering different things from this situation. If you are talking about Aristotelian Logic (which I don't think you are) then those are only when we have solid nightactions to go on.

But just for clarity, in this situation a useful defence of Abandon Hope would consist of a comment along the lines of: "It can be correct play to claim Vanilla early in <some circumstances> because <some reason>". Or maybe "It can be correct for a townie to falseclaim vanilla when they have <some role> because <some reason>".

If you don't believe my defense/argument of him/his play was useful, then don't.

@AK: You are getting what I'm trying to say. When I said "The only possible gain is people like me would think he's not scum", the point I was trying to get across is that that is a very small gain for his play, therefore the play was not a great play for a scum.

Quote from ZasZ234

Do you use this argumentation in every game or only when you are scum? This question is always just deflective and a delaying tactic - why are you supporting evasive behaviour?
Besides it's building a straw man, because obviously bate thinks AH had reasons - that's why he is still on the wagon that was formed to get AH state this reasons in the first place.

What am I deflecting and delaying from? I'm not supporting evasive behaviour. I'm not saying he should never answer. Right now is not a time for it. His play does not make him lynchworthy.

If we knew what they are, we could base our judgement on facts (you know, like the ones you mention in your post below)

Jeez, my argument is that he should not be made to reveal those reasons at this time. I don't think he's lynchworthy. I don't think he is scum. So why are you even making posts like these to me?

Being considered townie and not having to justify - two very substantial gains for scum.

See above for my reply to AK, and see above for not having to justify.

Unvote
Vote Faeren

254 is horribly opportunistic, and I don't see much to suggest FO scum.

Effective Immediately, Wuffles replaces Puzzle per Puzzle's request.

Hey wuffles, welcome to the game. a few points to make for everyone while things are heating up:

I'm not going to be able to get around the MMoD situation, so I'll address it. I think that we should just drop AH for now, and if we need a lead we can pick it up later. There's no real reason to pursue it now as we're just beating a loooong dead horse. MMoD is kind of just mimicking a popular idea from earlier, I can't really remember where, but it was seen that while not necessarily pro-town, AH had a non-scum action. I feel that MMoD has weak reasons for believing this to be a pro town action, and if he wants to pursue this train of thought, should probably refine it a bit.

The little dialogue between AK and Faeren and Yuan worries me, I don't really know what to think of Faeren trying for a buddy-buddy relation with AK, other than not-a-good-move. This starts around #250, and it really depicts Yuan being a slippery little fishy, flopping all over the deck, but I'm not going to hold a typo against him. Faeren hops about with an FOS and a vote, and a very stupid reason for that vote. It doesn't make any sense when he is doing the same thing he is accusing someone else for being scum for AS he's voting. They had reason, sure but...it wasn't very good. Anyway, that section strikes me as an odd exchange.

Quote from Faeren »

care to explain the flipflop? I switch that big requires a Fos Yuan. I don;t think you accidentally typed AK instead of FO, and I will hold it against you as a blatant and unexplained flipflop.

I'll unvote pending a re-read.

Quote from Zionite

I think that we should just drop AH for now

The trouble with this being we've had fine commentary from everyone except AH.

Suppose arimnaes is right and he's a power role pulling a poorly thought out gambit. In this case the Mafia know he's town and can off him any time they like. But this is a worse situation than if Abandon Hope just claimed is role honestly since whilst the Mafia can still go for him there's no scope for the rest of us to counterclaim him if he's lying.

The little dialogue between AK and Faeren and Yuan worries me

It is a little troubling, but it's consistent with the playing style of both so far. Unless you know something about Faeren's play from previous games I'm not sure there's anything worth pursuing here.

It's annoying to read, and I tend to insult back.

Please do, I clearly deserve it!

Quote from ZasZ234 »

Both scenarios have one feature in common - LAL.

LAL, however, is not a universal axiom. It's a metagame ploy meant to discourage sloppy play by townies, who in general should never lie unless telling the truth would be significantly detrimental to the town, and to ensure that scum can't get away with blatantly falseclaiming cop and fabricating investigations, etc.

In this case, we need to examine the potential motivation for lying in this situation. (If AH is in fact lying. Note well that if he's straight-up telling the truth, I have no idea why he started this to begin with.)

Again, I have a hard time seeing this as a good play by AH if he's town, but the truth is that a gambit of this nature would be entirely in character for him if he were.*

*No offense intended, AH, if this is the case.

Yup, I agree with arimnaes here. "Lynch All Liars" is a reasonable rule of thumb but there are plenty of exceptions. The reason for the rule is simply that there are so few valid reasons for a townie to ever lie.

But note also that the rule isn't "Lynch All Liars as soon as possible". For example, if a player lies but then claims some weird role in defence it's fine to leave them alive until you reach lynch or lose and then lynch them since that way you gain as much benefit as possible from their claimed role and the Mafia may even have to NK them to get rid of it, which saves you a lynch.

Hi.

Rereading.

Gimme a couple days.

rawr!