Well, being predicated by whatever... maybe Faeren also remembers your other scummy move - you know, those you got instantly voted for by several people...
Well you asked for anyone to point out your mis-readings, so I thought I'd point out that 4 people voted for me for putting Yuan Ti at lynch-1. Two of them (Zionite and Ged) were people the I fingered as his scum buddies, so their votes are almost purely OMGUS. The other two are Matjoeman and Looking for Reality (who has since unvoted and voted Faeren).
The only other voting activity towards me is and FOS by AK (who is also someone I've said is scum), and Faeren (whose few posts on this thread have pinged my scumdar, especially his early votes, but I'm suspending judgement on him for the time being). Both of these things are tied to the MMod/AH issue.
Wow, this has been interesting. I am just concerned about AH's claim back early on Day 1. I have to agree with everyone that it was a wierd move that was almost unneeded at the time. Arimnaes hit it on the nail. It is almost as if he WANTS us to focus on him. Maybe he is trying to put blinders on all of us and cover for something (Like his other mafia mates,) Or he may be trying to draw out some mafia for a vig kill (Which I doubt as it would be too wierd, but who knows.) I think as much as we want to drop this right now, I need to FOS AH into explaining his move for us.
I second Faeren's question. Exactly what my problem is: Simply claiming half the players scum doesn't make their votes against you less valid.
But isn't it quite convenient that Zionite and Ged are voting for me after I pegged them as scum? Zionite did with an interesting amount of histronics and flair, going out of his way to make sure everyone knew how wonderfully scummy I was being, and that I must be scum for doing it, and jesus christ what are you doing FO....... Ged just voted not even citing a reason. Both of those votes reeked of OMGUS.
And as far as their valid reason, I've already explained multiple times why I put Yuan Ti at lynch-1.
Quote from ZasZ234 »
The opposite is true - constructs like yours only stir paranoia and distract from logical arguments; therefore gives every single one of them a vaild reason to vote you - in addition to your faulty reasoning and scummy move earlier.
What construct? That our scum group is Yuan Ti, AK, Ged, and Zionite (and probably a 5th, but I'll keep that one to myself for now)?
Distract from what logical argument? I have no idea on this one.
What vaild reason to vote me? That I put scum at lynch-1. Yeah, because a Townie would never vote for a mafioso...
What faulty reasoning? I have no idea on this one either.
Quote from Yuan Ti »
I agree. I originally put you down as a townie who thought I was scum. Now I'm a lot less sure. You are in essence the one OMGUSing here, and defend AH clearly without a clue at what he's doing.
Is this addressed to me??? I'm voting for you. How is that OMGUS??? Me defending AH has just as much merit as those who attack him. I'm just making sure that those people attacking him are doing for the right reasons and with the right reasoning, neither of which is the case.
Wow. Accusations flying everywhere. Of all the people accused of scumminess Yuan Ti still tops my list by far, and I don't like how many people are neglecting to give an opinion on the current number one holder of votes.
As for AH, while I'd like to hear an explanation from him, I consider pressure unwise, because of the reasons I can think of for doing what he did, several are ones best kept secret.
I have trouble finding FO scummy, because I agree with his position on YT and find it quite likely that of the wagon on him, at least one of those he accuses (probably Zionite) is scum.
I don't know about you guys, but last time I checked, moving someone(or thinking you're moving someone) to lynch -1 before everyone has discussed it is definitely a scum move. Even other people were wary of how things were going to quickly, and I agreed. While I wanted Yuan lynched, I did not want Day one to end so quickly, as it's when we get the most information. If we stifled the development of Day one with a premature lynch, it'd gimp the town for the rest of the game. That was my major concern, of yuan ti I couldn't care less. I don't know how my vote for FO was OMGUS, since I had a reason other than 'you voted for yuan' or whatever, it was more because he wanted day one to end.
Okay, so, I finally re-read, and here's some notes. This is me being kind of sloppy because normally I'd put this in a notebook or something, but I kind of typed it up as I went, so I'm just going to post it as is.
Forgotten One's vote on Arimnaes in #46 is pretty poor. No real logical justification for it, yet it doesn't read like a joke.
Then Abandon Hope makes his "claim" in post #57. To be honest, I was skimming pretty much at that point. My immediate feeling was that it was a joke of some kind, possibly in reference to another game he was playing or played. I didn't think it was a big deal. I did not assume that he was serious.
Puzzle's immediate vote following is pretty neutral for me. It's something I could see a town Puzzle doing. But also not hard to imagine a scum Puzzle making an easy vote on a townie who just did something odd.
Other somewhat unusual action is Tanerin voting for "No Lynch" seriously in post #69. He is a professed newb. to the site, so on the one hand, you can excuse him for pursuing a sub-optimal course of action, but on the other hand, I don't see why he'd even think of voting "No Lynch" on day one as a newbie either. Later, in #89 he says he's actually NOT new to Mafia, and even realizes that No Lynch can be a bad thing, but for whatever reason still did it.
Zionite and Yuanti immediately vote him. Zionite's vote can easily be read as a joke/lesson type vote. Yuanti's vote is slightly scummier.
I would say Tanerin choosing to vote for Arimnaes in #89 is also a bit odd. Why Arimnaes? He was even somewhat defending Tanerin up to that point by pointing out that a newb voting No Lynch is not a scum tell. The stated reason for Tanerin's vote is pure bandwagon. It's early enough that this reason isn't auto scummy, but it's certainly not good either.
I agree with LFR in post #103. If AH is doing anything, he's just fishing for reactions to his "vanilla" claim.
Then I don't really like how Yuanti jumps over to voting AH in #104. It's almost like he's voting against his will.
Ged is right in #115. If what AH is doing is trolling for reactions, it's not a scum move.
Which makes Bat's vote in #116 a bit worse looking, as he's plenty smart enough to see that. This vote has no basis for it except that Bat seems to think AH made a bad play. But it's only a bad play which is also scummy that ought to garner his vote.
Don't particularly care for AK's entrance in #119. Throwing FOS's around has always seemed so useless to me. But besides that, he's basically just expressing confusion and uncertainty.
Bat is putting AH in the proverbial "no win" situation in post #127. Oooo, and then in #131 he almost completely excuses himself from any responsibility for his vote, saying that if the "town" decides not to pursue AH, then Bat won't either, but if the town decides to persue him, then Bat's vote won't even matter.
I can't even read Yuanti's #157, except I know he's wrong.
Don't like Fairie Lord in #158, saying he's going to "keep an eye" on the AH wagon. We'll see if that actually happened....
I think Zoinite's #167 is pretty solid as a post.
Faeren popping in to vote Yuanti in #178 isn't great as a post. Uses one rather poor post to justify a vote and pretty much ignores everything else that has happened so far.
Then there's Yuanti's claim in #186, which really seems to come out of left field. I say that, but on the other hand, I guess he did have about 7 votes on him at the time. Still, he seemingly implodes with "well, clearly I'm not going to get out of the lynch..." That's classic over-reaction. Then the way he threw out that he's a vanilla townie, almost like an afterthought, also looks off. Why wouldn't you just claim your role of you were going to claim at all?
Ged in #191 doesn't sound totally sincere to me. With his *bleep* and telling everyone to "cool it off." False shock?
Forgotten One reappears with his "Lynch -1" vote in post #193. That's another kind of bad one. Why do it like that? It's like, you want him to be lynched, but you want to be expecially careful that no one can accuse you of speedy-lynching because you clearly label the vote Lynch -1.
I'm not thrilled with MatJoe's re-appearance in #209, and the bandwaggony vote on FO. Then the "homework" excuse.
Hrm. Bat's still not looking great to me in #210. Stating some over-obvious stuff and FOSing LFR who is one of the more reasonable posters in the game so far.
Fairie Lord = Scum.
Uh oh. LFR is talking about me in #217. I plead guilty.
I don't understand Yuan's #226. Part of it reads almost like a confession. The way he says he doesn't understand why people started to unvote him for FO. If he was townie, I tend to think he wouldn't question it so much. Then the bizarre bit of logic which makes him think Zionite is townie. Because if Zionite were Mafia, then he would not be worried about being lynched tomorrow when Yuanti comes up scum - because (presumably) Yuan won't come up scum??? This just makes no sense at all.
Tanerin makes possibly a slip in #232 suggesting that FO could be a SK.
FO's response in #233 is actually fairly reasonable.
Bat appears to be beating a dead horse in #234. He's still going on about AH even though only 2 people are now voting for him and the discussion has moved on to Yuanti and FO. Where's Bat's opinions on that?
Fairie Lord: Still scum in #240. Going to re-read....
AK is doing what Bat's doing in #246, which is ignoring the meat of the thread for a side issue. I see jumping on MMOD as non-productive and a kind of "safe" non-controversial vote which doesn't commit him to a position on the people who are actually closest to being lynched.
Faeren in #252 is a bit interesting. He agrees with a point AK is making - that MMOD was acting scummy, but instead of following and voting for MMOD, he will vote for FO (who has more votes on him) because he (apparently) thinks they are both scummy, and FO is defending his scumbuddy. If you really felt like that, you ought to be voting the person you think is scummy independently first, then, if you are right, you could vote the person who "defended" him for possibly being his scumbuddy (though that's always dicey logic to begin with. It really doesn't work at all before you know if the first person is scum).
MMOD is sounding pretty okay to me at this point. Him and LFR.
So, the scummiest looking to me:
Fairie Lord, who is skimming and making posts that sound like he's paying attention, but not really. So he's scum or really lazy and kind of dishonest.
AK I don't like either. The way he voted MMOD is suspect.
Bat hasn't really done anything I really like. I don't like him parking his vote on AH the whole game because AH won't "explain" why he claimed vanilla townie. It's not like Bat can't think of reasons himself. It's not like several people haven't suggested possible reasons. But Bat is demanding that AH explain his reasons to the point of ignoring everything else that's going on. And then there was that post about persuing who "the town" wants to persue. I could be wrong, but the AH ship has sailed for the moment, Bat. The town is not pursuing it, but you apparently still are.
Rounding out the top five, we have Tanerin, the noobiest sounding player. Who is bandwagoning, making some odd votes (no lynch) and drawing some very odd conclusions (re: FO possibly being a SK). And now he's following Bat's lead and going back to asking AH to explain himself. Which just seems like a very "safe" thing to ask for.
Finally, Faeren, mainly for #178 and #252. The latter especially. I agree with LFR that it was a very opportunistic seeming vote for FO.
Yuan-ti would probably be next. I don't like a lot of what he's done either, especially the half-hearted vanilla towie claim. The maths post. And the way he decided Zionite was likely town, which I still can't wrap my head around.
Vote: Fairie Lord. A more proper/condensed case may be posted later, but you can see where I'm coming from on him.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
In case it wasn't clear, my opinion on YuanTi is that his wagon grew too fast for my liking, and that only if he keeps up the crap is he worth lynching.
Time for AH's daily post soon - will he now address any point against him? stay tuned
I havn't posted out of exhaustion. I am sorry to break your prediction.
Quote from tanarin »
I think as much as we want to drop this right now, I need to FOS AH into explaining his move for us.
I think that isn't going to work. I repeat. I will not be bullied into action.
Quote from Axelrod »
185
I would expect nothing less from an Axelrod mind dump. I'm dissapointed that Axel's vote (Farie Lord) landed on the suspected player whose actions Axel explained the least. I know it seems obvious to you Axel, but spell it out for the rest of us please?
Bat. The town is not pursuing it, but you apparently still are.
True, but the aim is to try to focus the town on real issues. It may yet be that I'm forced to let Abandon Hope get away with what he did, but if so that would be a very bad thing. You say I can imagine reasons why he did it, but I can only imagine bad reasons. Correct play is for the town to call him on this. The fact that they're seemingly not prepared to is bad, pure and simple.
Yuan-Ti, as I said before (but you apparently missed) is playing quite badly, but that's not the same as scummily. And in general half the town seem to be on hair triggers, leaping out of their chairs and pointing at each other and yelling "SCUUUUM!".
As far as your case on Faerie Lord goes - yes, some more detail would be good. He played in a similar style in Vanilla Mafia (which he was subbed into) and was the townie who gave me the most trouble of anyone.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Faerie Lord opened the game with a salvo of random votes. He quite literally random voted for someone in each of his first six posts. This seemed excessive to me. Certainly one random vote at the beginning of the game is par for the course, even two. Possibly three. After that, it stops being cute. This was all in the first 64 posts of the game as well. Why so crazy?
So I made my post of #66, remarking that I once faked a role as scum that had to vote for someone different in every post. This is true, but was mainly just wanted to see what he would do. If he really had a post restriction, obviously he'd just keep it up and it would soon be apparent to everyone. What happened? He not so subtley accused me of "fishing" and dropped it immediately.
He's made a grand total of 3 posts in the 8 days since then. And in each one I see something to question.
In #158 he does a few things I don't like. He takes a dig at Yuan-ti (which isn't totally scummy in itself). He claims he had a longer "more detailed" post worked up, but it got eaten or something (obviously he never bothers to reproduce it). He then says he going to "keep an eye" on those who voted the AH wagon. Which he clearly does not do. That's one of those "look at me, being a good townie, paying attention!" kind of posts which are suspect to begin with, and worse when you don't actually do what you claim you are going to do.
Then there's #211 in which he responds to multiple players. He now accuses Tanerin of "fishing" (apparently he sees fishing everywhere.) He is casting his major suspicions on Yuan-ti and Zionite (scumbuddies in his eyes despite Zionite voting for Yunati). Yet at the end, he does not vote for anyone. Instead he throws out the utterly useless IGMEOY. Why? He even has the gall to ask "Why isn't Zionite lynched yet?" But didn't vote for him himself.
Then there's his Last post 3 days ago where he finally unvotes his "random" vote on Arimnaes (parked there since 9-14-07), and, again, promises to re-read. Presumably so he can come back to the thread with fresh insights and actually make a contribution. Well, that hasn't happened.
For someone who was literally flinging the votes around one the first 2 days, he hasn't voted anyone since then, despite his claims that he was going to be "keeping an eye" on certain players (never actually specified) and his promise to re-read. He's also managed to accuse 2 players of "fishing" in a very short span of time. He's been the most useless player, making promises he doesn't keep, and lurking to boot. His early game doesn't match his later game.
Now, could this all be simply poor play? I suppose it could. I'm not familiar with his play from any other game, so I don't know what he's like or what he's done before. But based on what I've seen, my vote is in the best place right now.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
He even has the gall to ask "Why isn't Zionite lynched yet?" But didn't vote for him himself.
Oh, good catch. When I read that I was too lazy to check that he was actually voting Zionite himself at the time.
But based on what I've seen, my vote is in the best place right now.
Yeah, OK. I'm not blown away by it, but you've got some valid points there.
Will likely switch my vote if Abandon Hope ever gets his act together.
In the meantime: FoS: Faerie Lord.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
True, but the aim is to try to focus the town on real issues. It may yet be that I'm forced to let Abandon Hope get away with what he did, but if so that would be a very bad thing. You say I can imagine reasons why he did it, but I can only imagine bad reasons. Correct play is for the town to call him on this. The fact that they're seemingly not prepared to is bad, pure and simple.
What do you mean you can only imagine bad reasons? What bad reasons are you imagining?
Yuan-Ti, as I said before (but you apparently missed) is playing quite badly, but that's not the same as scummily. And in general half the town seem to be on hair triggers, leaping out of their chairs and pointing at each other and yelling "SCUUUUM!".
For someone who knows how to make this distinction, what about what AH did strikes you as scummy?
It might definitely be "bad" play, but where's the scummy exactly (in your opinion).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
with the "constant discussion helps scums" thing, you sound really scummy my friend. Axelrod's case has a lot of merit, and your last post is scummy imho. Vote Faerie Lord.
Also, you're "I'll pay attention now" thing is one of the big things Axel called you on, because you've done that again now, so I'm really happy with my vote.:)
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
What do you mean you can only imagine bad reasons? What bad reasons are you imagining?
Same stuff arimnaes suggested. For example:
* His claim is simply designed to provoke discussion, with no thought as to the consequences.
* He is a power role and thought claiming vanilla would make him less likely to be targetted.
* He is scum and was trying to slip a claim in early in the hope that a vanilla claim would seem less dubious when there was no pressure. (Actually it wasn't arimnaes who said that, but I forget who it was.)
Although really it doesn't matter what bad reasons I was imagining. What matters is any good reason I'm failing to imagine and/or what Abandon Hope himself has to say about it all.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
Oh? In what way does pretending to be a power role dodge nightkills?
By asserting that he's a townie and generally acting odd and confused, the mafia will avoiding killing him so they can mislynch him in the future, and the town will avoid lynching him because they either think AH is up to something they don't understand or they don't want to lynch a neutral. Confusing the town is a good strategy to employ as a neutral.
* His claim is simply designed to provoke discussion, with no thought as to the consequences.
* He is a power role and thought claiming vanilla would make him less likely to be targetted.
But I suggested those because they are reasons he might have made the play as town. Whether you think they're bad reasons or good, I don't understand why you find them scummy.
Also, I'm at a loss as far as what negative "consequences" would come from provoking a discussion. AH claiming vanilla townie was not likely to start an avalanche of power roles claiming for no reason.
But I suggested those because they are reasons he might have made the play as town.
Yes, I do understand that. The problem is that for any action that a townie could make, a scum can make the corresponding identical action.
In the townie case there is no motivation. I agree with your verdict that it would be a misplay.
In the scum case there is motivation because the town should be reluctant to lynch a player they perceive as possibly a power role.
Also, I'm at a loss as far as what negative "consequences" would come from provoking a discussion.
Depends on which case we have.
In the case where he's genuinely vanilla he just lied to the town. That's problematic because lying like that is seen as valid then scum can simply attempt this kind of deceptive play with little consequence if they fail. (And indeed that may be exactly what we're seeing.)
In the case where he's not vanilla but is town he's outed himself as a power role as surely as if he'd claimed it explicitly, but with the additional downside that the town has had no opportunity to counter-claim and so he loses the usual benefit of also clearing himself.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
I, uh, what? I said I was vanilla, and if I am vanilla, I lied? I don't understand.
Ah, so it does talk!
Unvote: Abandon Hope
For the record, that was an idiotic play to which you should have owned up when you were initially called on it. And unfortunately if you survive to the endgame we'll still have to lynch you in case it was a scum gambit.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch:
Vote: Apokalypse Kid
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
For the record, that was an idiotic play to which you should have owned up when you were initially called on it. And unfortunately if you survive to the endgame we'll still have to lynch you in case it was a scum gambit.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch:
Vote: Apokalypse Kid
Say what now?
How does this response answer any of the questions that [i]you[/] supposedly want answered?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
How does this response answer any of the questions that you supposedly want answered?
He actually is vanilla.
Yeah, OK, he didn't intend to say so, but I was more interested in the answer than his cooperation per-se.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
And again: Getting people to think you are town, when you aren't is a substantial gain.
Again, people like me. Do you see alot of people other then me thinking him a bit more town?
Also asking where exactly you try to delay something and showing a "I never said never, just not now"-attitude in the same paragraph - didn't that bug you yourself? Just a bit?
greetings
Z
No, it doesn't. I think the problem here is that you are implying that I'm delaying for AH, where I think you are saying I'm trying to delay doing something myself. In the former, then my answer would've been "Yes, I am trying to delay everyone telling AH to owe up an explanation". In the latter, then explain more.
Well you asked for anyone to point out your mis-readings, so I thought I'd point out that 4 people voted for me for putting Yuan Ti at lynch-1. Two of them (Zionite and Ged) were people the I fingered as his scum buddies, so their votes are almost purely OMGUS. The other two are Matjoeman and Looking for Reality (who has since unvoted and voted Faeren).
The only other voting activity towards me is and FOS by AK (who is also someone I've said is scum), and Faeren (whose few posts on this thread have pinged my scumdar, especially his early votes, but I'm suspending judgement on him for the time being). Both of these things are tied to the MMod/AH issue.
What? Did you seriously just dismiss all the suspicion on you because you called them scum once so therefore it's OMGUS? Vote stands.
In the scum case there is motivation because the town should be reluctant to lynch a player they perceive as possibly a power role.
This assumes that the town doesn't at some point realize that said player was doing this to promote discussion and we actually have no more info about that players alignment than if said player had not posted. The town should not have an altered opinion of that player's alignment.
To clarify, Contrary to what Bate says, we don't actually know anything about AH's alignment. He could be Vanilla or not. And I don't think he's going to tell us. And he shouldn't.
I'm not confused by bate's reaction or vote at all. As I read the last page or so, it appeared to me the AK was, perhaps, a little too easily convinced by the arguments against FL. The way he voted appeared to me to be opportunistic.
What? Did you seriously just dismiss all the suspicion on you because you called them scum once so therefore it's OMGUS? Vote stands.
Not in the least. I merely pointed out that it was rather interesting that that of the 4 people that found my lynch-1 vote on Yuan Ti scummy, two of them are people that I specifically called out as his scum buddies. Zionite did it almost immediately after I voted (like he was waiting for anyone to vote for Yuan Ti). Ged didn't even provide a reason for his vote. You didn't find any of that in the least bit suspicious???
Of the other two people that voted me because of my lynch-1 vote for Yuan Ti, LfR has since unvoted (which should say something), and apparently, your vote stands. That's not a whole heck of a lot to justify
Quote from ZasZ234 »
Well, being predicated by whatever... maybe Faeren also remembers your other scummy move - you know, those you got instantly voted for by several people...
and I felt it mischaracterized what actually happened.
This assumes that the town doesn't at some point realize that said player was doing this to promote discussion and we actually have no more info about that players alignment than if said player had not posted. The town should not have an altered opinion of that player's alignment.
To clarify, Contrary to what Bate says, we don't actually know anything about AH's alignment. He could be Vanilla or not. And I don't think he's going to tell us. And he shouldn't.
This is the first sane thing I've seen posted regarding AH this entire game.
I don't think I'm real happy with Bat's reaction. That looks like a scum pressing a weak argument who got called on it and abandoned it as soon as he could. I fail to see why AH's post above should have changed Bat's position at all if he were a townie. Contrary to Bat's assertion, AH does not, in the above post, "confirm" that he is a vanilla townie any more than his original claim "confirmed" it. In that post, AH is pointing out a strange statement from Bat. where Bat said that if it was shown that AH was really vanilla, AH would then be a liar. AH asks how that is so - if he claimed vanilla and he really was vanilla, how would he be a liar?
That is not AH "confirming" that his original claim was true and not some kind of bizarre gambit.
Completely aside from that, however, is this: Bat's original thing was not getting "confirmation" about whether AH was really vanilla or not. Bat's thing was forcing AH to explain why he made that claim so early and unprovoked. That was the supposedly scummy behavior that Bat was voting him for. AH in no respect explained himself. It that same post that caused Bat to unvote, AH is still refusing to explain, saying "I will explain when there is good reason..."
So why the unvote? Bat is clear to say he (or rather "we") will still have to lynch AH at the end in case it was a scum gambit. I don't see where this response would make you feel any better about AH if you weren't feeling so before.
This does not track, except it kind of does if Bat is trying to wriggle out of a vote which has been garnering suspicion on him.
Unvote;
Vote: Bateleur
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
Completely aside from that, however, is this: Bat's original thing was not getting "confirmation" about whether AH was really vanilla or not. Bat's thing was forcing AH to explain why he made that claim so early and unprovoked.
I was about to post "Oh no it wasn't, you lying..." and then re-read and noticed that is more or less what I said.
Ho hum. Still, if you read my other comments as well I make it pretty clear that the whole thing only became a serious issue to me when he started getting all evasive about why he'd made the play in the first place.
Whether or not you're able to interpret AH's posts is pretty much moot. I'm now satisfied he just made a misplay. If you're not then feel free to take up the case yourself.
This does not track, except it kind of does if Bat is trying to wriggle out of a vote which has been garnering suspicion on him.
It has? Link please.
By my reading I'd been getting credit for advancing the case.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
@bateleur: Ok... maybe I am just being blind, but him trying to catch you trapping him in a bad situation comfirms that he is a townie? I mean, even if he (HA) is really town (I am not convinced he is Pro-Town yet, though I am not saying he is Scum either,) His comment would of been said by anyone who realizes what you are doing. This is starting to raise some real red flags in my book. Hell, I got more insight from LfR's explination of why he might of done it than the reason behind you thinking AH is not scum. Plus the fact that you then go and vote for AK for no apparent reason seems seals the deal for me.
Vote: bateleur
I just can't ignore the red flags I am seeing right now.
For the record, that was an idiotic play to which you should have owned up when you were initially called on it. And unfortunately if you survive to the endgame we'll still have to lynch you in case it was a scum gambit.
Of all the people who jumped on AH's case for prematurely claiming, bateleur is the least scummiest in my eyes. There were several others who jumped immediately on that wagon who only unvoted AH to jump on some other wagon (and others who said they would vote for AH or expressed all sorts of indignation about him, but never committed a vote). At least Bateleur had the conviction to see his suspcion through as long as he did and have at least some reason to unvote, when everyone else was dropping the issue without explanation.
Unfortunately for Bateleur, the post where he called AH a liar if he is a vanilla townie is horrible. It is either a huge slipup (unlikely), a typo (also unlikely), or he's argued himself in circles so much that up=down, 1=2, and cats love dogs (most probable explanation). I think someone put it best however, that we don't lynch people for bad play, we lynch them for scummy play. I think people put far too much stock in backpeddling being a scum-tell, and it seems that the votes on bateleur are because his exit out of voting for AH was rather ungraceful. To be honest, it seems sincere to me, and for what its worth I won't be voting for bateleur.
For the record, that was an idiotic play to which you should have owned up when you were initially called on it. And unfortunately if you survive to the endgame we'll still have to lynch you in case it was a scum gambit.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch:
Vote: Apokalypse Kid
Kind of out of nowhere. Care to explain either of those 2 decisions? I don't know if I want to vote bateleur becuase of an unknown vote quantity. By which I mean, I'll probably vote him pending a vote count.
We live in a country were ~50% of the populace believe public schooling is a socialist conspiracy and that being called Einstein is an insult. We could try and fix it, but unfortunately the other 50% don't believe in euthanasia.
I still don't get why you take that stance, when the best you can say about it is along the lines of "at least no one else thinks like I do".
I don't get you. If I believe in it then I will take the stance. It's how I thought. When I first started defending AH I thought more people would take the same stance. They didn't. That doesn't deter me in the least.
Bat's reaction was weird. The thing MJM was quoted on is pretty much how I stand on AH - he's garenteed nothing at the moment. I'll stand by the FO vote for now. I should probably reread YuanTi.
Completely aside from that, however, is this: Bat's original thing was not getting "confirmation" about whether AH was really vanilla or not. Bat's thing was forcing AH to explain why he made that claim so early and unprovoked. That was the supposedly scummy behavior that Bat was voting him for. AH in no respect explained himself. It that same post that caused Bat to unvote, AH is still refusing to explain, saying "I will explain when there is good reason..."
Good Point
The other votes on this wagon make me wary of joining though.
Me voting for Bat in no way should suggest that I don't think AK is also a good candidate to be scum.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Bateleur »
Ambush Krotiq makes me laugh so much. I keep rereading the card and it keeps not having Flash. In what sense is this an ambush again? I just have visions of this huge Krotiq poorly concealed in some bushes, feeling slightly sad that his carefully planned ambushes never seem to work.
I see Bateleur's unvote of myself as demonstrating desperation for a reason to free his vote from what he may see as a dead end. I understand his desire to be percieved as the winner in this little discussion. I don't see a good reason for him to need that victory of words and wifom so badly that he'd just pretend victory.
I don't know, maybe he's not just pretending victory.
Well you asked for anyone to point out your mis-readings, so I thought I'd point out that 4 people voted for me for putting Yuan Ti at lynch-1. Two of them (Zionite and Ged) were people the I fingered as his scum buddies, so their votes are almost purely OMGUS. The other two are Matjoeman and Looking for Reality (who has since unvoted and voted Faeren).
The only other voting activity towards me is and FOS by AK (who is also someone I've said is scum), and Faeren (whose few posts on this thread have pinged my scumdar, especially his early votes, but I'm suspending judgement on him for the time being). Both of these things are tied to the MMod/AH issue.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Made by Topher at Aether.
Come Praise Jesus!
Official Godfather of Team Faerie Mafia.
Current Decks
FM Thresh
Vial Horror
Classic Day 1 here. I don't know what to make of anything at this point.
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
scummy.
But isn't it quite convenient that Zionite and Ged are voting for me after I pegged them as scum? Zionite did with an interesting amount of histronics and flair, going out of his way to make sure everyone knew how wonderfully scummy I was being, and that I must be scum for doing it, and jesus christ what are you doing FO....... Ged just voted not even citing a reason. Both of those votes reeked of OMGUS.
And as far as their valid reason, I've already explained multiple times why I put Yuan Ti at lynch-1.
What construct? That our scum group is Yuan Ti, AK, Ged, and Zionite (and probably a 5th, but I'll keep that one to myself for now)?
Distract from what logical argument? I have no idea on this one.
What vaild reason to vote me? That I put scum at lynch-1. Yeah, because a Townie would never vote for a mafioso...
What faulty reasoning? I have no idea on this one either.
Is this addressed to me??? I'm voting for you. How is that OMGUS??? Me defending AH has just as much merit as those who attack him. I'm just making sure that those people attacking him are doing for the right reasons and with the right reasoning, neither of which is the case.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
As for AH, while I'd like to hear an explanation from him, I consider pressure unwise, because of the reasons I can think of for doing what he did, several are ones best kept secret.
I have trouble finding FO scummy, because I agree with his position on YT and find it quite likely that of the wagon on him, at least one of those he accuses (probably Zionite) is scum.
3CB and 4CB5CB!Forgotten One's vote on Arimnaes in #46 is pretty poor. No real logical justification for it, yet it doesn't read like a joke.
Then Abandon Hope makes his "claim" in post #57. To be honest, I was skimming pretty much at that point. My immediate feeling was that it was a joke of some kind, possibly in reference to another game he was playing or played. I didn't think it was a big deal. I did not assume that he was serious.
Puzzle's immediate vote following is pretty neutral for me. It's something I could see a town Puzzle doing. But also not hard to imagine a scum Puzzle making an easy vote on a townie who just did something odd.
Other somewhat unusual action is Tanerin voting for "No Lynch" seriously in post #69. He is a professed newb. to the site, so on the one hand, you can excuse him for pursuing a sub-optimal course of action, but on the other hand, I don't see why he'd even think of voting "No Lynch" on day one as a newbie either. Later, in #89 he says he's actually NOT new to Mafia, and even realizes that No Lynch can be a bad thing, but for whatever reason still did it.
Zionite and Yuanti immediately vote him. Zionite's vote can easily be read as a joke/lesson type vote. Yuanti's vote is slightly scummier.
I would say Tanerin choosing to vote for Arimnaes in #89 is also a bit odd. Why Arimnaes? He was even somewhat defending Tanerin up to that point by pointing out that a newb voting No Lynch is not a scum tell. The stated reason for Tanerin's vote is pure bandwagon. It's early enough that this reason isn't auto scummy, but it's certainly not good either.
I agree with LFR in post #103. If AH is doing anything, he's just fishing for reactions to his "vanilla" claim.
Then I don't really like how Yuanti jumps over to voting AH in #104. It's almost like he's voting against his will.
Ged is right in #115. If what AH is doing is trolling for reactions, it's not a scum move.
Which makes Bat's vote in #116 a bit worse looking, as he's plenty smart enough to see that. This vote has no basis for it except that Bat seems to think AH made a bad play. But it's only a bad play which is also scummy that ought to garner his vote.
Don't particularly care for AK's entrance in #119. Throwing FOS's around has always seemed so useless to me. But besides that, he's basically just expressing confusion and uncertainty.
Bat is putting AH in the proverbial "no win" situation in post #127. Oooo, and then in #131 he almost completely excuses himself from any responsibility for his vote, saying that if the "town" decides not to pursue AH, then Bat won't either, but if the town decides to persue him, then Bat's vote won't even matter.
I can't even read Yuanti's #157, except I know he's wrong.
Don't like Fairie Lord in #158, saying he's going to "keep an eye" on the AH wagon. We'll see if that actually happened....
I think Zoinite's #167 is pretty solid as a post.
Faeren popping in to vote Yuanti in #178 isn't great as a post. Uses one rather poor post to justify a vote and pretty much ignores everything else that has happened so far.
Then there's Yuanti's claim in #186, which really seems to come out of left field. I say that, but on the other hand, I guess he did have about 7 votes on him at the time. Still, he seemingly implodes with "well, clearly I'm not going to get out of the lynch..." That's classic over-reaction. Then the way he threw out that he's a vanilla townie, almost like an afterthought, also looks off. Why wouldn't you just claim your role of you were going to claim at all?
Ged in #191 doesn't sound totally sincere to me. With his *bleep* and telling everyone to "cool it off." False shock?
Forgotten One reappears with his "Lynch -1" vote in post #193. That's another kind of bad one. Why do it like that? It's like, you want him to be lynched, but you want to be expecially careful that no one can accuse you of speedy-lynching because you clearly label the vote Lynch -1.
I'm not thrilled with MatJoe's re-appearance in #209, and the bandwaggony vote on FO. Then the "homework" excuse.
Hrm. Bat's still not looking great to me in #210. Stating some over-obvious stuff and FOSing LFR who is one of the more reasonable posters in the game so far.
Fairie Lord = Scum.
Uh oh. LFR is talking about me in #217. I plead guilty.
I don't understand Yuan's #226. Part of it reads almost like a confession. The way he says he doesn't understand why people started to unvote him for FO. If he was townie, I tend to think he wouldn't question it so much. Then the bizarre bit of logic which makes him think Zionite is townie. Because if Zionite were Mafia, then he would not be worried about being lynched tomorrow when Yuanti comes up scum - because (presumably) Yuan won't come up scum??? This just makes no sense at all.
Tanerin makes possibly a slip in #232 suggesting that FO could be a SK.
FO's response in #233 is actually fairly reasonable.
Bat appears to be beating a dead horse in #234. He's still going on about AH even though only 2 people are now voting for him and the discussion has moved on to Yuanti and FO. Where's Bat's opinions on that?
Fairie Lord: Still scum in #240. Going to re-read....
AK is doing what Bat's doing in #246, which is ignoring the meat of the thread for a side issue. I see jumping on MMOD as non-productive and a kind of "safe" non-controversial vote which doesn't commit him to a position on the people who are actually closest to being lynched.
Faeren in #252 is a bit interesting. He agrees with a point AK is making - that MMOD was acting scummy, but instead of following and voting for MMOD, he will vote for FO (who has more votes on him) because he (apparently) thinks they are both scummy, and FO is defending his scumbuddy. If you really felt like that, you ought to be voting the person you think is scummy independently first, then, if you are right, you could vote the person who "defended" him for possibly being his scumbuddy (though that's always dicey logic to begin with. It really doesn't work at all before you know if the first person is scum).
MMOD is sounding pretty okay to me at this point. Him and LFR.
So, the scummiest looking to me:
Fairie Lord, who is skimming and making posts that sound like he's paying attention, but not really. So he's scum or really lazy and kind of dishonest.
AK I don't like either. The way he voted MMOD is suspect.
Bat hasn't really done anything I really like. I don't like him parking his vote on AH the whole game because AH won't "explain" why he claimed vanilla townie. It's not like Bat can't think of reasons himself. It's not like several people haven't suggested possible reasons. But Bat is demanding that AH explain his reasons to the point of ignoring everything else that's going on. And then there was that post about persuing who "the town" wants to persue. I could be wrong, but the AH ship has sailed for the moment, Bat. The town is not pursuing it, but you apparently still are.
Rounding out the top five, we have Tanerin, the noobiest sounding player. Who is bandwagoning, making some odd votes (no lynch) and drawing some very odd conclusions (re: FO possibly being a SK). And now he's following Bat's lead and going back to asking AH to explain himself. Which just seems like a very "safe" thing to ask for.
Finally, Faeren, mainly for #178 and #252. The latter especially. I agree with LFR that it was a very opportunistic seeming vote for FO.
Yuan-ti would probably be next. I don't like a lot of what he's done either, especially the half-hearted vanilla towie claim. The maths post. And the way he decided Zionite was likely town, which I still can't wrap my head around.
Vote: Fairie Lord. A more proper/condensed case may be posted later, but you can see where I'm coming from on him.
True, but the aim is to try to focus the town on real issues. It may yet be that I'm forced to let Abandon Hope get away with what he did, but if so that would be a very bad thing. You say I can imagine reasons why he did it, but I can only imagine bad reasons. Correct play is for the town to call him on this. The fact that they're seemingly not prepared to is bad, pure and simple.
Yuan-Ti, as I said before (but you apparently missed) is playing quite badly, but that's not the same as scummily. And in general half the town seem to be on hair triggers, leaping out of their chairs and pointing at each other and yelling "SCUUUUM!".
As far as your case on Faerie Lord goes - yes, some more detail would be good. He played in a similar style in Vanilla Mafia (which he was subbed into) and was the townie who gave me the most trouble of anyone.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Faerie Lord opened the game with a salvo of random votes. He quite literally random voted for someone in each of his first six posts. This seemed excessive to me. Certainly one random vote at the beginning of the game is par for the course, even two. Possibly three. After that, it stops being cute. This was all in the first 64 posts of the game as well. Why so crazy?
So I made my post of #66, remarking that I once faked a role as scum that had to vote for someone different in every post. This is true, but was mainly just wanted to see what he would do. If he really had a post restriction, obviously he'd just keep it up and it would soon be apparent to everyone. What happened? He not so subtley accused me of "fishing" and dropped it immediately.
He's made a grand total of 3 posts in the 8 days since then. And in each one I see something to question.
In #158 he does a few things I don't like. He takes a dig at Yuan-ti (which isn't totally scummy in itself). He claims he had a longer "more detailed" post worked up, but it got eaten or something (obviously he never bothers to reproduce it). He then says he going to "keep an eye" on those who voted the AH wagon. Which he clearly does not do. That's one of those "look at me, being a good townie, paying attention!" kind of posts which are suspect to begin with, and worse when you don't actually do what you claim you are going to do.
Then there's #211 in which he responds to multiple players. He now accuses Tanerin of "fishing" (apparently he sees fishing everywhere.) He is casting his major suspicions on Yuan-ti and Zionite (scumbuddies in his eyes despite Zionite voting for Yunati). Yet at the end, he does not vote for anyone. Instead he throws out the utterly useless IGMEOY. Why? He even has the gall to ask "Why isn't Zionite lynched yet?" But didn't vote for him himself.
Then there's his Last post 3 days ago where he finally unvotes his "random" vote on Arimnaes (parked there since 9-14-07), and, again, promises to re-read. Presumably so he can come back to the thread with fresh insights and actually make a contribution. Well, that hasn't happened.
For someone who was literally flinging the votes around one the first 2 days, he hasn't voted anyone since then, despite his claims that he was going to be "keeping an eye" on certain players (never actually specified) and his promise to re-read. He's also managed to accuse 2 players of "fishing" in a very short span of time. He's been the most useless player, making promises he doesn't keep, and lurking to boot. His early game doesn't match his later game.
Now, could this all be simply poor play? I suppose it could. I'm not familiar with his play from any other game, so I don't know what he's like or what he's done before. But based on what I've seen, my vote is in the best place right now.
Oh, good catch. When I read that I was too lazy to check that he was actually voting Zionite himself at the time.
Yeah, OK. I'm not blown away by it, but you've got some valid points there.
Will likely switch my vote if Abandon Hope ever gets his act together.
In the meantime: FoS: Faerie Lord.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Right now I'm fine with running up Faeren.
What do you mean you can only imagine bad reasons? What bad reasons are you imagining?
For someone who knows how to make this distinction, what about what AH did strikes you as scummy?
It might definitely be "bad" play, but where's the scummy exactly (in your opinion).
But you IGMEOY?
Exactly what's the distinction there?
Also, you're "I'll pay attention now" thing is one of the big things Axel called you on, because you've done that again now, so I'm really happy with my vote.:)
My other banners not in use
Goodbye Cruel World, It's Over, Walk On By
Follow
Oh? In what way does pretending to be a power role dodge nightkills?
Same stuff arimnaes suggested. For example:
* His claim is simply designed to provoke discussion, with no thought as to the consequences.
* He is a power role and thought claiming vanilla would make him less likely to be targetted.
* He is scum and was trying to slip a claim in early in the hope that a vanilla claim would seem less dubious when there was no pressure. (Actually it wasn't arimnaes who said that, but I forget who it was.)
Although really it doesn't matter what bad reasons I was imagining. What matters is any good reason I'm failing to imagine and/or what Abandon Hope himself has to say about it all.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
My other banners not in use
Goodbye Cruel World, It's Over, Walk On By
Follow
By asserting that he's a townie and generally acting odd and confused, the mafia will avoiding killing him so they can mislynch him in the future, and the town will avoid lynching him because they either think AH is up to something they don't understand or they don't want to lynch a neutral. Confusing the town is a good strategy to employ as a neutral.
Also, I'm at a loss as far as what negative "consequences" would come from provoking a discussion. AH claiming vanilla townie was not likely to start an avalanche of power roles claiming for no reason.
Yes, I do understand that. The problem is that for any action that a townie could make, a scum can make the corresponding identical action.
In the townie case there is no motivation. I agree with your verdict that it would be a misplay.
In the scum case there is motivation because the town should be reluctant to lynch a player they perceive as possibly a power role.
Depends on which case we have.
In the case where he's genuinely vanilla he just lied to the town. That's problematic because lying like that is seen as valid then scum can simply attempt this kind of deceptive play with little consequence if they fail. (And indeed that may be exactly what we're seeing.)
In the case where he's not vanilla but is town he's outed himself as a power role as surely as if he'd claimed it explicitly, but with the additional downside that the town has had no opportunity to counter-claim and so he loses the usual benefit of also clearing himself.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
I will explain when there is a good reason to.
I, uh, what? I said I was vanilla, and if I am vanilla, I lied? I don't understand.
Ah, so it does talk!
Unvote: Abandon Hope
For the record, that was an idiotic play to which you should have owned up when you were initially called on it. And unfortunately if you survive to the endgame we'll still have to lynch you in case it was a scum gambit.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch:
Vote: Apokalypse Kid
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Say what now?
How does this response answer any of the questions that [i]you[/] supposedly want answered?
He actually is vanilla.
Yeah, OK, he didn't intend to say so, but I was more interested in the answer than his cooperation per-se.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
No, it doesn't. I think the problem here is that you are implying that I'm delaying for AH, where I think you are saying I'm trying to delay doing something myself. In the former, then my answer would've been "Yes, I am trying to delay everyone telling AH to owe up an explanation". In the latter, then explain more.
What? Did you seriously just dismiss all the suspicion on you because you called them scum once so therefore it's OMGUS? Vote stands.
The motivation is to promote discussion.
This assumes that the town doesn't at some point realize that said player was doing this to promote discussion and we actually have no more info about that players alignment than if said player had not posted. The town should not have an altered opinion of that player's alignment.
To clarify, Contrary to what Bate says, we don't actually know anything about AH's alignment. He could be Vanilla or not. And I don't think he's going to tell us. And he shouldn't.
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || sk: LookingforReality (Copycat) |||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || survivor: matjoeman (Anarchist) |||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || town: kops (Anarchist) |||
Mafia stats
Not in the least. I merely pointed out that it was rather interesting that that of the 4 people that found my lynch-1 vote on Yuan Ti scummy, two of them are people that I specifically called out as his scum buddies. Zionite did it almost immediately after I voted (like he was waiting for anyone to vote for Yuan Ti). Ged didn't even provide a reason for his vote. You didn't find any of that in the least bit suspicious???
Of the other two people that voted me because of my lynch-1 vote for Yuan Ti, LfR has since unvoted (which should say something), and apparently, your vote stands. That's not a whole heck of a lot to justify
and I felt it mischaracterized what actually happened.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
This is the first sane thing I've seen posted regarding AH this entire game.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
That is not AH "confirming" that his original claim was true and not some kind of bizarre gambit.
Completely aside from that, however, is this: Bat's original thing was not getting "confirmation" about whether AH was really vanilla or not. Bat's thing was forcing AH to explain why he made that claim so early and unprovoked. That was the supposedly scummy behavior that Bat was voting him for. AH in no respect explained himself. It that same post that caused Bat to unvote, AH is still refusing to explain, saying "I will explain when there is good reason..."
So why the unvote? Bat is clear to say he (or rather "we") will still have to lynch AH at the end in case it was a scum gambit. I don't see where this response would make you feel any better about AH if you weren't feeling so before.
This does not track, except it kind of does if Bat is trying to wriggle out of a vote which has been garnering suspicion on him.
Unvote;
Vote: Bateleur
Unvote, vote bateleur.
I was about to post "Oh no it wasn't, you lying..." and then re-read and noticed that is more or less what I said.
Ho hum. Still, if you read my other comments as well I make it pretty clear that the whole thing only became a serious issue to me when he started getting all evasive about why he'd made the play in the first place.
Whether or not you're able to interpret AH's posts is pretty much moot. I'm now satisfied he just made a misplay. If you're not then feel free to take up the case yourself.
It has? Link please.
By my reading I'd been getting credit for advancing the case.
(I'm on on this site much anymore. If you want to get in touch it's probably best to email me: dom@heffalumps.org)
Forum Awards: Best Writer 2005, Best Limited Strategist 2005-2012
5CB PotM - June 2005, November 2005, February 2006, April 2008, May 2008, Feb 2009
MTGSalvation Articles: 1-20, plus guest appearance on MTGCast #86!
<Limited Clan>
Vote: bateleur
I just can't ignore the red flags I am seeing right now.
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
Just seems so forced.
Unfortunately for Bateleur, the post where he called AH a liar if he is a vanilla townie is horrible. It is either a huge slipup (unlikely), a typo (also unlikely), or he's argued himself in circles so much that up=down, 1=2, and cats love dogs (most probable explanation). I think someone put it best however, that we don't lynch people for bad play, we lynch them for scummy play. I think people put far too much stock in backpeddling being a scum-tell, and it seems that the votes on bateleur are because his exit out of voting for AH was rather ungraceful. To be honest, it seems sincere to me, and for what its worth I won't be voting for bateleur.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
Kind of out of nowhere. Care to explain either of those 2 decisions? I don't know if I want to vote bateleur becuase of an unknown vote quantity. By which I mean, I'll probably vote him pending a vote count.
My other banners not in use
Goodbye Cruel World, It's Over, Walk On By
Follow
I don't get you. If I believe in it then I will take the stance. It's how I thought. When I first started defending AH I thought more people would take the same stance. They didn't. That doesn't deter me in the least.
Good Point
The other votes on this wagon make me wary of joining though.
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || sk: LookingforReality (Copycat) |||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || survivor: matjoeman (Anarchist) |||
<XylBot> ||| MAFIABOT || town: kops (Anarchist) |||
Mafia stats
Also, my mind control powers appear to be working, as matjoeman gave me credit for something Axelrod said.
I don't know, maybe he's not just pretending victory.
As I've previously stated, I would wholeheartedly support an AK lynch as well.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections